Worries about buying a 10D

[Clavain]

Hello,

I have to admit to being abit upset about all the postings one sees on the web about focusing problems with the 10D.

I am travelling to the USA next week and wanted to buy myself a 10D and a nice lens.

Now I find myself thinking about having a beautiful new camera which may not be working properly. Should one wait until the teething problems are sorted out? Why is canon releasing cameras that are not Quality Guaranteed?

And if you have a problem, are you going to notice it as a hobby person? And are you going to have a problem convincing Canon that your brand new camera is not working as it is suppost to?

Or do the other members of this forum think I am being a weepy weenie?

Clavain

[Pekka]

I think you should be worried only after Canon tells the issues in focus are normal and there is nothing to fix. We'll see soon.

And forget ruler tests, there is one really good test you can do, and it is very revealing if you do it by the book:
http://www.hkdotcom.net/Francis%20Photography%20channel/AF_Test/index.htm

[lluscombe]

Hi,

I don't know what to say. I have tested mine on printed pages, at different angles, and mine seems to work just fine.

I will give you an example of how sharp the focus is. The image below was taken with a Canon 10D, 100mm Canon lens and hand held (I panned as the swan swam by).

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1439447&size=lg

And below is a 1:1 reproduction of the face. I just relied on the camera's AF to produce this.

http://www.violins.on.ca/canon/swandetail.jpg

The AF of this camera work squite well, though not quite as robust as the Nikon D1/D100/F5, it is proabably a bit more intelligent. Just make sure that the focus point is where you wish it to be in your composition. I have owned quite a few cameras, overall, this one is certainly my favourite.

[jimbobski]

I work for a photography retailers. We have just been told that any problems with the autofocus on the 10d, could be a result of incorrectly set custom functions. Although I have not tested this theory. I presume they mean the custom function setting to activate A/F via the FE lock button, but will double check.

[Pekka]

Illuscombe,

Be glad if you don't see any problems.

Each camera may be slightly different in calibration and each lens can be calibrated differently. I can produce extremely sharp shots with 10D, but there has been problems in that area, too. I managed to see some patterns in where problems occurred and the test mentioned above showed the issue very clearly. Now I know for sure why sometimes the good focus was lost.

Test results were:

My 70-200/2.8L is sharp on 200mm and 140mm, on 100mm it starts to drift towards backfocus and 70mm is way off back. This correlates well with results of last portrait session I did with 70-200.

My 50/1.4 is front focusing. Clearly.

My 35/2 is backfocusing heavily and when you go further back it focuses all over - looks like the old non-USM motor is not so accurate any more with 10D.

Sigma 20mm is very good.

Sigma 14mm front focuses.

Those test files are in http://www.exhibitserver.com/10D/ should you not take my word for it (I use another server of mine so I would not stress this one).

I really don't care if these problems are 10D's problem or lens problems and I don't take this personally or as "all 10D's are defective". I will take the whole lot to Canon and let them fix it all to specs, that's it. It's not a big deal - maybe costs some but I'll gradly pay for knowing that my equipment works reliably. If the problem is in 10D then it is clearly paid under warranty.

[lluscombe]

Try this:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=4683299

I think I got the link from elsewhere in this forum.

[kendersplace]

Clavain,

I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the people who have been creating such an upset over this are either a) way too damn pickey, b) shooting pictures of nothing but rulers, c) people who don't understand auto focus and depth of field.

There was a dpreview thread a short while back asking "does anyone LIKE thier 10D" The response was astounding. There were a couple people (the nit pickey ones) that did respond, but there were lots and lots and lots of responses from very happy people.

Something else to consider.... this is a "first" D-SRL for many of the people buying it. They see some pic of a ruler and someone complaining of horrid focus issues and they get scared. What do they do? Go home and shoot a pic of a ruler. They think it might be a bit off, and they jump right on the band wagon of those convinced they got a bum camera.

I will tell you, I have the absolute WORST luck when it comes to buying new stuff. I'm also very pickey. Usually, if 1 in 1000 is bad - I'll get the bad one, ask any of my friends (I get joked about it all the time). I LOVE the 10D. I too shot pics of rulers, and who knows if it was working right or not. I think it was just fine.

Get your 10D and enjoy it. If you really do have crap pics due to focus, send it back for replacement or warranty. Its really a no-brainer.

FYI - not to point fingers, but I have seen several posts about this from people that I know to be Nikon loyal trolls who are p*ssed off that they are stuck with a D100 and 5 over priced lenses, so they choose to stirr up trouble over the 10D. As a previous D100 user, I can say the 10D has it beat in every area, no doubt.

[Pekka]

kendersplace wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the people who have been creating such an upset over this are either a) way too damn pickey, b) shooting pictures of nothing but rulers, c) people who don't understand auto focus and depth of field.

I think there are lots of people who just try to find a reason to odd focus behaviour they are seeing in real life shooting.

There was a dpreview thread a short while back asking "does anyone LIKE thier 10D" The response was astounding. There were a couple people (the nit pickey ones) that did respond, but there were lots and lots and lots of responses from very happy people.

I replied that thread, too. If I like my 10D or do I have problems with it are two separate things.

Get your 10D and enjoy it. If you really do have crap pics due to focus, send it back for replacement or warranty. Its really a no-brainer.

This is good advice.

I took my 10D and three lenses to repair shop this morning. I had a long chat with guy who does the repairs. He said people had same "off focus" problems with D30 and D60 and they can be fixed quite succesfully by calibrating. Not all people report those problems because you need to shoot with good glass and large apertures to notice them.

As my (Canon) lenses do not all have focus error to same direction it takes more time to find a good compromise between all lenses (weighted to L lens).

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect") to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes sense.

By the end of the week or early next week I'll get the lenses and camera back.

[Canon-1Ds]

Not having jumped down the 10D road yet I am shocked to see further posts about out of spec digital cameras but hold on mabe we are all jumping the gun.
Pekka has done his home work and I think it's more likley that we are seeing out of spec lenses, part of the problem is the 1.6 conversion...if you make a lens to focus precisely with a 35mm footprint it makes sence that if you crop that footprint you are also cropping lens information, this might not be as noticible with 35mm but digital is less forgiving and zooms are probably the worst for this problem. In the professional video world we use lenses that you can tweek the back focus...although this usually only needs to be set once...the lens can drift ever so slightly. Mabe the answer to this is for Canon to produce "D" lenses with adjustable back focus or better still an electronic back focus that monitors each lens you put on the camera. This does not help you chaps with 10Ds but I think we are finally getting to the bottom of the focus issue.

[wcapald]

Canon are shipping the 10D in their thousands and Canon would not let the 10D out the door if there was a problem with focus. Loads of people have already expressed their delight with the 10D on every forum going so don't be put off by the doubters, nit-pickers propeller heads, and moaners. I got mine a couple of weeks ago, its been to Rome on a three day shoot already and in May its all set for the wedding season to start. Absolutely mindblowing camera for the money. Buy it, and you'll be really pleased.

[mrbobco]

i agree too...

the 10d is an awesome camera...kinda amusing how the beauty and natural look of the skin tones make the d-60 look like a toy...not to mention the MUCH improved focusing...

point is...you could wait forever to see what comes next...but there is ALWAYS something coming next...jump in...get your feet wet...worst thing that can happen is you'll have to sell your 10d with the next new whizzbang thing comes out from canon...

i ignored all the whiners i've seen out there...and put some faith in the technology (and the knowledge that canon wouldn't deliberately put out a piece of crap)

*I* had a problem getting perfectly focused pictures for the first few weeks...THEN i read the manual :) works quite wonderfully now...

now if canon will only fix their linear tiff bug :eyes

bob

ps...thanks pekka for the very first RATIONAL explanation of where the front focusing/focusing problem can come from...it's SO nice to hear somebody SANELY investigating this INSTEAD of complaining with no solution...

[kendersplace]

Pekka wrote:
I took my 10D and three lenses to repair shop this morning. I had a long chat with guy who does the repairs. He said people had same "off focus" problems with D30 and D60 and they can be fixed quite succesfully by calibrating. Not all people report those problems because you need to shoot with good glass and large apertures to notice them.

As my (Canon) lenses do not all have focus error to same direction it takes more time to find a good compromise between all lenses (weighted to L lens).

The method used to fix this is to first test the camera with their in-house reference lens (fixed 200mm which is as he said "perfect") to make sure camera calibration is ok. If camera is off then it is fixed either by software or mechanically to make sure that 200mm focuses spot on. Then he takes the most used and best quality lens of the lot (in my case 70-200) and calibrate that as well as possible (i.e. open the lens and use its adjustments), then take other lenses one by one and calibrate each to the camera. Makes sense.


Thank you for sharing. That is actually some good information. Normally I see lots of complaints on this subject, but I really appreciate someone doing their homework on the issue.

What you say does make sense. My other 2 lenses are back ordered right now, but I have been using the "prosumer / non-L" 24-85 USM. I think it may have some front focus. I did the ruler test, and wide open the focus still looks really close to spot-on. I've done some "real" shooting over the past few days of people, objects, and the like and I have seen outstanding results so I'm really not concerned about it.

Regardless, I don't think you can go wrong with the 10D. I have seen a few posts from people who had a problem, sent the camera off and seemed to think the problem was solved when they got it back. Maybe they were just psyched into thinking they had a problem, they got the cam back in the exact same condition they sent it in - and having peace of mind after servicing, they no longer "see" the problem. Who knows. At least they were happy in the end.

Compared to the other 6MP D-SLR's on the market, the 10D is waaaaaaaaaay out in front of the pack. Also consider the 10D is a "second generation" D-SRL (it was built on the 1st generation D30 and D60). The other makers are still in their "first generation" like the Fuji and the D100.

[kendersplace]

mrbobco wrote:
*I* had a problem getting perfectly focused pictures for the first few weeks...THEN i read the manual :) works quite wonderfully now...



Would you mind sharing what you discoverd in the manual? Maybe there are a few "no brainer" issues that people are missing that are spelled out in the manual? I haven't read the manual in depth in the focus or metering chapters yet so not sure what it really points out there.

Thanks. :)

[Clavain]

Dear Everyone,

Thank you all very much for the interesting replies. In particular to kendersplace for his sensible advice :-), and to Pikka for sharing the information about camera and len calibration (very interesting).

I would like to say more but it is very late and I have had a long day. Just checking in last thing before going to bed (without any sort of manual ;-)).

Clavain

[lluscombe]

Just a note. I did some focus tests with the test chart that I found linked on this forum. I have only 2 Canon lenses at this point. My 100mm USM macro is dead on. The 24-85 seems good (maybe very slight front-focus?), though it is certainly soft compared to the 100mm macro, so the actual point of focus is more difficult to spot. That 100 macro is SHARP. The 24-85 maks gorgeous 4x6 and 5x7, and good 8x10. I wonder what the 100 would produce....

So lens quality may be an issue with any fcus problems. what looks like MAY be a minor front focus with the 24-85 is so slight that it will not cause any practical problem. Having said that, I should do some more critical tests to make sure.

[wcbert]

Clavain wrote:
Hello,

I have to admit to being abit upset about all the postings one sees on the web about focusing problems with the 10D.

I am travelling to the USA next week and wanted to buy myself a 10D and a nice lens.

I would recommend strongly that if you are traveling to the U.S. to buy a camera then before you leave the store fully test the camera out. There are some cameras with some problems and that would be expected with the large amout 10D released to the public. I think there are small amount of 10D cameras with problems, but if you have one then it seems all the 10D cameras have the same problem.

Bill

[wcapald]

How come you guys are so negative? Canon does not have a problem with the 10D.

[dimage]

I started out a skeptic about the "focus problem" but the more I looked into my own lenses (a mix of Canon L and primes) the more I realized that there are some REAL problems and it may be more with the LENSES and how they are tested and spec'ed and NOT the 10D. This issue is compounded by the ability of users to accurately "test" their lenses with a high resolution digital camera. Basically we are using Lenses designed and spec’ed for film on a Digital camera.

Pekka is right that either the lens or the 10D can be at fault (or both), but unless you know which is causing the problem you could very well be blaming the wrong thing. My own experience and that of some others I have seen seems to suggest that it is the LENSES may be the source of MOST of the so-called "10D focusing problems."

Why do I suspect it is MOSTLY a lens problem:


1. I checked my lenses on a 10D and my 2 year old D30 an they both had very similar results. I very much doubt they were both miscalibrated the same way.

2. As Pekka says, with the 10D a lot of people are getting a camera that can show the problem. With Film, unless one is willing to test their lenses with rolls upon rolls of film and either scan it or blow up their pictures to large sizes, they would new KNOW if their lens was bad or they just mis-focused.

3. We have lenses that were designed and spec'ed for full frame 35mm Film. Yet we are using them on a 1.6X smaller format. This means that blur that is “acceptable” for a full frame print is not 1.6X too blurry. As I understand it (see topic below), and it makes sense from how an AF sensor works and from my testing are spec’ed with a 10D class of Auto Focus system to be focus within the Depth of Field at the lenses widest aperture (smallest F-number) using BUT this may be with a 35mm Sensor making a 5x7 print (or at most 8x10 print).

http://forums.dpreview.com/... .../read.asp?forum=1019&message=4460128


This causes 2 problems: First, with a 1.6X crop, being blown up to the same size print the tolerance has to be 1.6X smaller. But the LENSE can’t know this (it was designed a long time ago for full frame). Second, we are looking at output in Photoshop at 100% which is like looking at something like a 24x36 inch print at close range (way beyond a reasonable spec for lenses). Nobody can help people that have the second problem; these people have unrealistic expectations and would result in $10,000 for a 50F1.4 lens.

4. There is a “chasing your tail” problem built into the lens spec from 3) above and I think the implications of the “lens spec” may be bigger than some (many?) people realize. The fact that the “spec” is based on DoF with a .035 CoF which is pretty loose to begin with could be a major problem. Let’s say your lens is “just” within the spec. for 35mm film and say the DoF is 1 foot. But for a 10D the DoF would be only .625 feet and thus if the DoF just touched the 35mm DoF the point you focused on would be .375 feet out of the Depth of field. OK so now you either zoom out or back up so that you have a VERY large DoF (but still at the widest aperture) of the lens of say 20 Feet (DoF increases by the square of the size you make the subject at the focus point smaller). But because of the lens spec you subject is now 7.5 Feet out of the DoF. NO MATTER HOW FAR YOU ZOOM OUT or back up the subject will never be in focus at widest aperture.

5. So what can one do? First you can stop down. The focusing is spec’ed and done at widest aperture. The DoF will increase by the amount you stop down the F-number. Thus if you stop down by 1.6X (a little over 1 F-stop) you will bring the DoF back to were it was for 35mm film. But of course you have also lost 1 Stop of light and you have lost some of your DoF control. Second you have to get you lens calibrated to “better than the original spec” (assuming the posting from #3 above is right). It sounds like you can get the lens “tightened up.” Your lens technically was not bad as it was within the original tolerance, it just was not spec’ed as tight as you need it for a 10D (or it might be out of spec either when you bought it or after being used and bumped around for a while and you did not realize it before having a 10D to test it with).

For all these decades, amateurs had no way to realistically test their lenses. The “Pros” have sent their lenses in for calibration (any mechanical system will develop some slop). Sending something in for calibration is not something an “amateur” typical ever does.

6. Longer term is would be good if the AF sensor in digitals were more precise. It would be a lot easier to reduce the tolerance of the body rather than all of the lenses. Fixing the lenses is a mess as you have to have it work well over all zoom ranges and focus distances. If the 10D would focus within 1/3rd of the DoF range for 35mm film then most people would be very happy as this would mean that you would still allow for some slop with the lens. If the spec is 100% of the DoF then there are going to be a lot of people finding problems when both their Body and their Lenses are “within spec.”


Will most people notice? Well that depends on what people do with their equipment.

[wcbert]

wcapald wrote:
How come you guys are so negative? Canon does not have a problem with the 10D.

I do have a problem with my 10D and I not negative about the camera at all. This is my third DSLR Canon camera and will still recommend them.

My problem is with exposure and how easy I can get blown out photos when I have the camera 2 stops down. Canon does not have a problem with 10D, some individual 10D Cameras can and do have problems and I have one. I believe we are few in numbers.

Bill

[GenDEM]

kendersplace, sounds like you found a great guy there to do the calibration. I hope there's something similar I can walk in to to get mine adjusted...my 28-105 and 100-300 are fine, but my 50mm 1.8 front AND back focusses!

[Pekka]

One must see a difference between front/back focusing, focus fluctuation and misfocusing (note that I use "you" as passive):

- Front/back focusing is calibration problem and can be fixed by calibrating camera and lenses together. Reason for this maybe in lens, camera or both. Fixed focal lens are either ok, front or back, in zooms it is possible that other end is ok or front or backfocuses and other end is ok or back or frontfocuses.

- Focus fluctuation means that focus point changes a _little_ each time you focus. It is more likely to see this in low light. This varies from lens to lens and newer and L lenses have more accurate focusing motors. Of course lens calibration matters here too as if a lens is not in peak condition camera will not see perfectly though it either.

- Misfocusing is user error. AI servo for example needs you to read the manual, after you learn how it works it is very effective and accurate way to focus intelligently on moving subjects. One Shot focus needs you to find a little bit of contrast to make a lock. Overall you need to understand DoF and how plane of focus is related to camera angle. And you need to have enough shutter speed: the bigger you print the faster you have to go. 1/focal does not apply with cameras with 1.6X sensor. Add to that A3 print size and you'll see that to get _really_ sharp images you need to crank up that speed much more than you expected.

Let me say this one more time:

10D as a camera is not "broken" in any way and I recommend it fully if you are looking for a camera in that price range. If I didn't like it I would not go though all this trouble. There are thousands of 10D's made and only some here and there may have slight miscalibration - it is only human that one sees posts about problems in bigger headings than posts "I like my 10D". In media war is always much more interesting than peace.

[Agus]

I got my 10D about a month ago and I am extremely happy with it. I have used it with an ultrasonic 100mm macro lens shooting bees on the fly and the results are amazing. For 1500 dollars I think it is fair, one thing one has to remember is that any business when selling something is not going to include all the features in one package, they give it to us little by little. So far I have not found major defects or dis-advantajes in my 10D.

[droosan]

gendem wrote:
... my 28-105 and 100-300 are fine, but my 50mm 1.8 front AND back focusses!

I have seen this kind of comment often and wonder if the common denominator is the f/1.8 ie. large aperture.

A large aperture means small DoF. A small DoF means out-of-focus issues are more noticeable.

Every 10D owner can easily inspect his pictures pixel-by-pixel, a magnification which was only approached in the film-world by enormous prints or powerful loupes. The average Rebel or even EOS-3 owner rarely did this.

Maybe the problem with the 10D is that the averaged Joe can inspect the quality of the results more easily than he ever has before.