Shooting wide open

[crazydays]

I don't seem to get it right! Whenever I try to shoot 2.8 or less, I run into "the nose in focus" nothing else thing. I rent the Canon 35 1.4 -excellent lens. Also have the 50mm 1.4 .. both of these I can't seem to get the depth of field right or, maybe my center focus needs to be changed??.

Any suggestions would be wonderful. I tend to shoot above 4 to avoid
crap shots-and when I must have keepers.

[mckinleypics]

focus on the eyes and/or move further back and use a longer lens

[crazydays]

Thanks Dave. I do tend to get in close for photos... I have a 70-200ml f4 lens- and I do great with the long photos.. more experiment needed below the f4. I will try backing up with the 35ml and see what I get. Is it possible to go open when taking small groups of people or, is this a recipe for disaster. I will be taking pictures at a reception in a room where I need all
the help with lighting I can get. I would like to open up the lens, increase ISO and go without on camera flash for some photos. Obviously NOT confident with lower f stops. I do very well above 4 but I would like to capture some bokeh with close up photos- different pics.

[troutfisher]

Have a look here
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
It might go some way to help and give you an indication of what you will get at different apertures and distances

Cheers

Chris

[crazydays]

Thanks Chris. WHat I gather is that my distance to subject needs to increase a lot...like 20 feet... I must be doing something wrong but the chart although interesting is a little confusing. At the reception I will have to lower my f stops and then back up more than usual to get a larger area depth of field- right?. The lens will make a difference as well. It is about time to learn these basic principles.

[Shockey]

I shoot wide open....a LOT.
You don't need to back up, just need to learn how to focus.
Choose the focus point so you can focus right on inner point of the near eye, do not focus and recompose. I always use spot focus.
Truth is I normally have my lens wide open and set on continuous focus, same settings as I use for shooting flying birds. Then I choose my focus point and put it right on an eye and click. I do this because any movement will cause depth of field blur and with those razor thin apertures, the tracking movement helps a lot with this.
I shoot group pictures at f4 if I am not to close, two rows of people deep, more than that I would go to 5.6.

[JeffreyG]

If you like to frame human subjects tightly, then very fast apertures are probably not a good idea.

The DOF is strictly a function of the framing (in turn a function of both focal length and subject distance) as well as the aperture.

So when you frame very tight (whether this is by shooting a wide lens super close or a long lens a little further back) you will get very shallow DOF.

If you are trying to shoot a person as tight as head and shoulders, you may well find that you cannot get nose to ears to be reasonably sharp in a medium sized print until f/8 or so.

My personal range:
Loosely cropped full body portrait - f/1.4
Tight full body - f/2
Waist up - f/4
Head and shoulders - f/8
Head only - f/11 to f/16

[crazydays]

Thanks for that Shockey. I do shoot spot focus and have been very successful with it except for when I try to use lens open. I am wanting to trouble shoot low light situations with low f-stops.
That is when I run into problem. My spot focus is bang on but everything else becomes distorted.
So, at the reception hall I need low light f-stops but am running into difficulty - so I always want to use higher f-stops then requiring on camera light.

[Shockey]

It is normal.
The short depth of field is an accepted look, the alternative in low light is to use flash, then you can use much smaller f-stops but it can look like crap unless you are very good with flash.
When you have to use wide open you have to use it. Short depth of field is WAY better than blurry pictures or flashing everything.
As you get more experience with it you will understand what needs to be in focus and what does not.
I shoot almost everything wide open or 1 stop down from it....I live there.

[JeffreyG]

Thanks for that Shockey. I do shoot spot focus and have been very successful with it except for when I try to use lens open. I am wanting to trouble shoot low light situations with low f-stops.
That is when I run into problem. My spot focus is bang on but everything else becomes distorted.
So, at the reception hall I need low light f-stops but am running into difficulty - so I always want to use higher f-stops then requiring on camera light.

Learn to bounce a flash and blend flash with ambient light by using gels and dragging the shutter. Properly executed use of flash looks better than ambient light in a lot of situations and is better than putting up with inadequate DOF.

I cannot tell you how many photographers have convinced themselves that half-blurry subjects are an artistic decision and not a crutch for not knowing how to use a flash well.

[crazydays]

Thanks again for your replies. Lots to think about. I have taken a flash 3 hr course and do an ok job
in controlled environments. This reception hall makes me somewhat nervous as I know there is some ambient light but higher ceilings.. I am just going to have to keep focused and try everything. I will be using my 5D2 + 35ml 1.4 and 85 1.8 . I may pull out the 70-200 f4. This obviously is what separates the pros from the amateurs. JeffreyG I am not sure I understand the personal range fstops. Can you explain that for me.. thx. I love hearing how different people use settings and their rationale for it. Kathy

[JeffreyG]

Can you explain that for me.. thx. I love hearing how different people use settings and their rationale for it. Kathy

DOF is a very simple topic in some ways, but you have to know a few important things.

For starters, the actual DOF in an image is strongly influenced by the size of the print (or screen image). An 8x10 that looks to all be in focus may well show inadequate DOF in a 16x20.

But let's assume you are going to make prints all of a certain size range. From this you should be able to get comfortable associating the f/# you need with how tightly you are framing the subject.

Looking for some examples that would work with smallish web-sized images I came up with the following two. Let me explain what I'm trying to show here.

The first image is a small child framed so that the head is ~28% of the long axis and it is at f/2.8. The DOF is quite adequate for this smallish web sized image and the subject appears to be completely in focus.

The second image is the same child framed much more tightly (now the head is relatively twice as large, ~65% of the long axis). The aperture is still f/2.8.

Note how dramatically thinner the DOF appears with the second shot. This is because of the framing.

A smart photographer will get a feel over time for what aperture is needed for the framing. The list I made above is what I know will give complete subject in focus images on a 35mm camera for medium sized prints.

Now - sometimes you simply live with shallower DOF to get the shot. But as you can see in the second image below, once you go too far the subject starts to look like they are melting. Oh - and both of these were shot using on-camera flash. I think the light is pretty nice and the ambient would not have been better.

[dannequin]

Don't always rely on 2.8, sometimes 2.8 will bring one eye in focus and the other out of focus. Set your aperture to 3.2 and aim in the center of the face, between the eyebrows. This will ensure that the image is properly exposed and shot... as my mentor has taught me, if the eyes are out of focus, it's a bad photo.

[crazydays]

I have lots to learn for sure. JeffreyG once again thank you for your explanation. I think that I will need to practice a lot with the wide open. Won't practice when I need to be at my best- like at this reception but, maybe a few to see how it goes..lol.

I need to learn more about depth of field and apeture- continual learning. Someday it will click-hopefully. Kathy

[PhotosGuy]

"the nose in focus" If you shoot wide open, you need to select the focus point that you will use during the shot. If you use the center point & focus & recompose, the eye will probably not be sharp.

[tonylong]

Kathy, you mention a place with high ceilings and so directly bouncing a flash will not be so good, but, assuming you have either a speedlight or other hotshoe-type of flash you can take some creative approaches.

For example a flash "bounce card" could help a lot. the 580EX Speedlites actually have a small card built in that provides a bit of "fill" but you can easily put together something bigger with, say, white construction paper that would be more effective than a little card in providing a fair amount of light by shaping the paper to wrap around the flash head then opening up to catch/reflect the ligh -- point the flash straight up (or some people angle it a notch forward) and wrap the bounce thingy and shoot away.

People do use things like little flash diffusers as well, you just have to try different things out and see what works for you. Something to avoid is if you resort to direct flash it is easy to "blow out" your subjects. Learn to work with your flash power setting either by having it (the flash) in Manual or, if it's a SpeedLite you can use ETTL and use the Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC). If you are using a built-in flash, there are a couple approaches such as a diffuser made to fit over them them or sticking some masking tape over them -- you can also use FEC with the built-in flash but you don't have a Manual setting for them.

[crazydays]

Photos Guy- if I use center focus then where should I focus to get good focus. I use center spot and aim for head- pls advise if there is better.
Most pics I take are in very good focus but I run into problems with the
fstops opened up-then my center of focus is good but I run into problems
with "the tunnel look".

Tony-I have a 580 on camera speedlight. I use it in ETTL. I will do my best to reflect from ceiling ,wall whatever I have. Does the plastic clear panel in the flash work well? If I am taking a small group shot with the 35mm -slightly wideangle would it be effective to diffuse the flash. Guess I just need to try it and compare. I have reflector panels- large round. I might bring it to use for some pictures- although it might be an eyesore. This
group is happy go lucky-they do anything for a photo!!

Thanks again for all your support with this...

[tonylong]

On the 580 the plastic panel is just for "spreading out" the flash for wide angle. It's the little white card behind the plastic panel that is called a "catchlight" panel -- it will throw a little bounce light toward the subject but, like I said earlier, you can get better results by putting something together yourself.

[PhotosGuy]

Photos Guy- if I use center focus then where should I focus to get good focus. I use center spot and aim for head- pls advise if there is better.
IF the center focus point is on the eyes, then you're good when shooting wide open.
Otherwise, look in your "Custom Functions" & put the choice of focus point under your control.
And I use AI Servo with that, so that if you or the subject moves a little bit, the eyes will still be sharp.

Good explanation of why center focus, while more sensitive, doesn't always result in a sharp shot.
http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photography/focus-recompose_sucks.htm

[crazydays]

GREAT INFORMATION.... thank you!

[Eruditass]

The perils of auto-select focus. The lights should blink to tell you where it is (incorrectly) focusing.