Image theft/copyright issue - advice please

[RichardtheSane]

Well I never thought I would be the one here typing a thread saying that I have been the victim of image theft, but I am, so here goes.

As some of you will know I photograph dogs (Greyhounds and Lurchers) for a rescue centre, offering my photography services as my way of voulenteering to help the dogs.

Well I found out that another organisation involved in fundraising for dog rescue have used two of my photographs in their fundraising calender without my permission...

...and to be honest I am not sure exactly where to proceed from here! Help!

I am faced with a number of issues that I have to consider in my response.

1. I photographed the dogs as a favour for them while they were being kenneled with my usual rescue, so at the time of the photograph the oganisation who stole my photographs were the official keeper of the dogs. I know this does not makewat they did right, but I want to have a response prepared should they mention that.

2. They have put underneath each photograph 'Photographs courtesy of richard lindley - www.richardlindley.co.uk (http://www.richardlindley.co.uk) '. Again, I am certain this should be worthless if they do not have permission to use the the image in the first place, but I need to be prepared for this too - am I right thinking this make little difference?

3. How should I structure my initial contact with them?
I definitly want to point out that I am well within my rights to invoice them (and indeed I plan on doing so) - should I invoice them there and then or maybe state that I will invoice them in due course?
ALSO, I feel that I am owed an explanation.

This is all I can think of now - I'm off to find more resources in UK copyright law - but any help, advice or your own experiences would be very much appriciated

Richard (who is calm but still very angry with the whole situation)

[elTwitcho]

Having had an image stolen myself, and though I'm not a professional by any means I can offer this advice. Before worrying about legal threats, or this and that, and what their response is going to be so you should plan your attack and bare your teeth, it's sometimes best to send an email or letter (something in writing) explaining your position from one person to the next. If you jump on the "I have this legal right" way of doing things, you might find they become hostile (and understandably so) and start making claims to legal rights of their own. I don't know how the courts work over there, but over here it's more hassle than it's worth and you'd be causing yourself more grief than it's worth to argue who is legally entitled or not.

The common sense, blatantly obvious answer would be to let them know your feelings. Something polite and firm such as "I would appreciate it if my images were no longer used in your calendar as they were not used with my permission" might get a better and more cooperative response than the somewhat innapropriate response you seem to be planning. Unless you're looking for damages in the thousands of dollars (which you won't get) it would be absolutely fruitless and a waste of your time to go through the courts.

FYI, in my case after a politely worded email my images were taken down off the other person's website. They made no mention of me (the photographer) and were using my photos to sell a product, I may have had even more reason to get indignant and had a better case in court but it's really not worth going after.

And if by "invoice them" you mean you expect to get money from them... good luck with that :lol:

As I said, they will probably think they have some title to your work and maybe they do. I don't know how the law works but they might come back and say you didn't have express permission to shoot on their property, or that you had worked out a verbal agreement that you could shoot their and they could use the pictures which may or may not hold up in court, but you will NOT win a settlement worth your time if you go through the courts anyway. You should ask them to stop using your work without permission (which may extend to no longer selling the calendar) but expecting much more is quite frankly silly.

[charlesu]

Do you know what outcome you want? If so, approach and ask. Since this sounds like a charitable organization, I wouldn't expect a lot of money. The best you will probably get is them to stop using the images. You can try invoicing them, but even if they have resources, the battle will probably be more costly for you than it's worth unless they images have substantial value.

[RichardtheSane]

Thankyou for your replies, I appriciate it.

It is worth pointing out that the photograps were taken on private property which does not belong to the infringers.
It is also worth pointing out that I have no intention of taking this to court. I know I could win the case, but as has already been said, the compensation would not be worth the time and effort.

Now the calender have already printed, so I have an idea based on what you have said...

I could request that they stop using my images in their calender, and say that should they wish to continue using the images they are welcome to negotiate a price with me.
I would also have to request they halt all sales of the calender right away.

Would that work?

Add you are right charles, I am finding this very difficult as they are a charitable organisation.

[RobKirkwood]

I think it will all hinge on what was actually said at the point when you took the photographs ...in theory a verbal contract is as binding as a written one.

Far as I can see though, there's no question of who owns the copyright in the photos (that will be you), but maybe they misunderstood what was said and thought you would be giving them copies PLUS the right to use them however they wished?

They have at least included credits and links to your website, which is more than many hired photographers would get ...wading in with an angry argument is probably not going to get you any future work from them (should you want it).

So it might be better just to have a friendly word with them, point out that they should have asked your permission to use the photos in this way, and if they seem humble enough suggest they may like to put things right by making some sort of payment as a gesture of goodwill?

Unless they have a track record of doing this, it's probably a misunderstanding based on their lack of knowledge of copyright issues.

[robertwgross]

Something is odd about this.

How did the other organization get your image files in the first place?

---Bob Gross---

[IndyJeff]

UK law / US law is apples and oranges, both are fruits but different in many ways. Sma ewith the laws of both countries.
The best bet would be to consult with a solicitor, I believe they are called in the UK, to see where you stand.

In the US I would say to have your attorney send a cease and desist letter halting all sales of the calendars. I am sure he would advise that you also register the images with the copyright office. A negotiation would then take place on a price for the continued sales of the calendars, which they have already paid for no doubt, and don't really want to just chuck in the trash.


That was the legal side of it now, you should look at the real life side. If you pursue this matter what will it do to your relationship with similar organizations? Word will travel about how you pursued legal action against them and give you a black eye in the business they are in. This may result in a loss of future earnings. Maybe a nice letter telling them that you are not happy that they used your images without permission in a commercial venture. By paying the enclosed invoice, the matter will be closed and if they wish to use your images in the future it would be better if they would negotiate before the printing was done. Ask 3 times the normal rate and then donate 2/3 of it back to them. You get paid, they get a donation and everyone should be happy.

Like Bob said, how did they get the images in the first place?

[RichardtheSane]

Thanks Rob

I think you may be right that they don't completely understand copyright, as I have since discovered that they have used a photograph taken by someone else without asking too. Having said that the image was cropped specifically so my copyright notice was not showing...

But when it comes to mis-understanding there definitly can be none, as no-one from the infringing organisation was present when the images were taken to mis-understand, and no communication about the images has ever been recieved.

As for future work from them, to be honest I wouldn't want it anyway even if it were offered. Plus they are in Birmingham.

I think I know which direction to take. I want to point out their error and I want to make it quite certain they know not to do it again to anyone. To be honest I'm not interested in profit, so I might not mention money in the initial contact.

THanks again :)

[RichardtheSane]

Something is odd about this.

How did the other organization get your image files in the first place?

---Bob Gross---

The image they used is pulled out of my web gallery, so is not great quality
(and therefore a poor reflectiion of my photograph anyway)

[elTwitcho]

I think I know which direction to take. I want to point out their error and I want to make it quite certain they know not to do it again to anyone. To be honest I'm not interested in profit, so I might not mention money in the initial contact.

THanks again :)

I think this is the most logical path. Now that you've explained further it sounds like they knowingly commited a wrong, but there's really not much you can do that will be worth your time. That's a really unfortunate situation

[RichardtheSane]

UK law / US law is apples and oranges, both are fruits but different in many ways. Sma ewith the laws of both countries.
The best bet would be to consult with a solicitor, I believe they are called in the UK, to see where you stand.

In the US I would say to have your attorney send a cease and desist letter halting all sales of the calendars. I am sure he would advise that you also register the images with the copyright office. A negotiation would then take place on a price for the continued sales of the calendars, which they have already paid for no doubt, and don't really want to just chuck in the trash.


That was the legal side of it now, you should look at the real life side. If you pursue this matter what will it do to your relationship with similar organizations? Word will travel about how you pursued legal action against them and give you a black eye in the business they are in. This may result in a loss of future earnings. Maybe a nice letter telling them that you are not happy that they used your images without permission in a commercial venture. By paying the enclosed invoice, the matter will be closed and if they wish to use your images in the future it would be better if they would negotiate before the printing was done. Ask 3 times the normal rate and then donate 2/3 of it back to them. You get paid, they get a donation and everyone should be happy.

Like Bob said, how did they get the images in the first place?

Thanks, appriciate your help and advice

I definitly won't do the legal route, I simply don't feel it would ever be financialy beneficial to do that. I am not going to do a solicitors letter, but a solicitor will be checking my letter over before I send it.
(I am lucky, my Fiancee works at a solicitors and has a helpful boss)

Now it won't harm me at all if I p*ss this organisation off, but I don't want to. I'm generally quite an amicable person, so I have suprised myself how much this has angered me!

I do like the letter idea you have suggested too, I think a bit of re-writing is in order - I feel you must have done this before!

Anyway, thanks for your advice I will keep you updated with the outcome on this one :)

[robertwgross]

The image they used is pulled out of my web gallery, so is not great quality
(and therefore a poor reflectiion of my photograph anyway)

Yes, that makes it more like simple theft and not just a misunderstanding.

Some people in the world believe that anything published on the web is public domain, and therefore they can use it. Or, at least that is what they claim they believe.

---Bob Gross---

[RobKirkwood]

...when it comes to mis-understanding there definitly can be none, as no-one from the infringing organisation was present when the images were taken to mis-understand, and no communication about the images has ever been recieved.
In which case I agree with Bob, it's a simple case of theft.

In your original post you said "I photographed the dogs as a favour for them", which, to me, implies some sort of conversation or communication - and my previous reply was based on that assumption.

[IndyJeff]

The fact that they pulled the image off your website makes it more than a "simply theft". The courts look down upon and deal with severly people who steal and violate copyright.

My advice is now changing. Contact a qualified attorney. I don't know about UK law but in the states if the image has been registered properly this would be a major violation.

Lets examine the facts.......
1. They made an illegal aquisition of your image.
2. They used that image in a commercial venture.
3. The image was used to gain a profit.

These are all part of the receipe for a major award from the courts.

[RobKirkwood]

[quote=IndyJeffI don't know about UK law but in the states if the image has been registered properly this would be a major violation.[/quote]

Under UK law nothing has to be registered, and there is no central government-funded body for doing this anyway - UK creators of original work automatically own the copyright in the work (be it photos, designs, music, etc..), unless they are doing so as part of an employment (in which case the employer usually owns the copyright) ...the problem as ever is in proving ownership.

There is at least one independent UK copyright registration service www.copyrightservice.co.uk, but it is an expensive process and I've no idea whether they've ever assisted anyone to win a case.

In this particular case, given that the infringers have included a credit, I don't think they are in a position to argue where the images came from!

[robertwgross]

There might be more misunderstanding here than what meets the eye.

If I am the photographer and the organization has the dogs, and if I agree to photograph the dogs, then what does that mean?

To some people, the act of photography starts when I look through the viewfinder and it ends a fraction of a second after my finger goes down on the button.

To others, the act of photography starts when looking through the viewfinder, then it goes through the button step, and it ends only when the photographer furnishes some tangible image file or photo print to the asker. The organization can try to claim that they were thinking this way, but they are standing on shakey ground.

---Bob Gross---

[Jon]

OK - say it loud - IANAL, certainly not conversant with British law except through murder mysteries.

The two points that I see are, they listed the photos as "courtesy of . . ." but didn't ask, so they're really not "courtesy of" and they " cropped specifically so my copyright notice was not showing...".
Both of those points would weaken any defense they could hope to make.
The [i]only issue they might be able to raise is your use, on your web site, of photographs of dogs which you acknowledge they were the official keepers of. Do you have any kind of release from anyone, either them or your normal rescue group, authorizing your display of the photos on your (presumably promotional rather than editorial) web site? That wouldn't justify their expropriating the photos, as the proper response on their part would have been to raise that issue with you directly, but it would muddy the waters.

Interesting problem. I photograph dogs for our Peke rescue group; I'll need to consider these issues WRT my work.

[RichardtheSane]

Thankyou everyone for your advice.

Because of another issue that has arisen surrounding this then I have had to make a choice. Persue the rescue (not for money, I hasten to add) or persue the other issue relating to this from a third party. I have neither the time or energy to persue both.

I have come to an amicable arrangement with the rescue. For me it was never about money, but the removal of my right to control the quality of the images printed and the usage of the images in the first place. The photographer in me knows that my images are my single most valuable asset. The dog lover in me knows that if I took this down the legal route then the associated costs would sink the rescue if I won (and after taking a little legal advice, had I wanted persue it I would have won). Compared to the minimal financial gain it would be simply wrong to do that.

So that part of the issue has now been resolved. I learned something very important on the way, a good honest flow of communication is worth a lot. I also know that this is not something that will happen again from them.

(The issue that I have chosed to persue is that an unrelated third party who hapens to run a very busy rescue forum basically got wind of this and tried to blackmail me into dropping it completely - his threat was that he would use the forums (and crossposting to other forums) to give me a bad name as a photographer and person by publishing his version of events - effectivly that is Libel, coupled with blackmail. To me this is the more serious of the two)

I'm having a bad week

Thankyou all for you help & support