Best Computer?

[kingstonphotography]

Any recommendations on the best type of computer to buy to support the switch to digital photography?

What are some of my minimums? Is an Apple better for graphics/photography?

I am leaning towards a laptop. Can I get away with only spending $1200-1500.

Thanks
kp

[robertwgross]

kingstonphotography wrote:
Any recommendations on the best type of computer to buy to support the switch to digital photography?

What are some of my minimums? Is an Apple better for graphics/photography?

I am leaning towards a laptop. Can I get away with only spending $1200-1500.

Thanks
kp

KP, there are pros and cons to a laptop computer. Obviously they are more portable and take up less room. However, several things are better in a normal desktop computer. For one, you get more "horsepower" for your money in a desktop. Most users agree that a normal CRT monitor is better for viewing photographs. By that, I mean that a good 17" monitor can display varying light intensities to a higher degree. For photograph editing, though, you probably want to stay with 17" or larger size, and run it at a resolution of 1024x768 at a _minimum_.

If you are fooling around with lots of large digital images, then you will need lots of disk and lots of RAM memory. It is not silly to have 1GByte of RAM these days. I thought that 160GBytes of disk was enough, but now I am not sure at all. Get something that is easy to upgrade or add on. Many users want extra peripherals like a CD or DVD burner. Film scanners can be relevant to film users who need to digitize.

Several years ago, Apple was the preferred choice among graphics professionals. Apple used to have some tools that made it just slightly better. That edge is now gone, so your choice is better made with whichever type you can get better support over. For example, check five of your nearest photographer friends and see where the majority falls, PC or Apple.

Don't consider the initial cost of the computer hardware as the sole cost. Also add in software cost. In some cases, there is support/maintenance cost if you can't do it yourself. Look at the larger picture (pun intended!).

I've been running my own PC machines for over 15 years, so there is no doubt in my mind. But others are intitled to their opinions. If you aren't careful, a religious war will break out (PC versus Apple).

---Bob Gross---

[fredlord]

I'm a Mac user. If you're a total novice with computers there are several things to consider:

The interface or GUI now is fairly similar but the Mac is slightly easier to add and subtract additional devices like scanners, CD/DVD drives, etc. to. It's generally easier to add new software to also. There are hidden systems under the GUI on the Wintel PC machines that can trip you up. Don't get me wrong, Macs can bite your behind too.

Given that, the preponderance of interesting new software seems to have swung in the direction of the Wintel PC audience. More software goodies seem to be available for them.

The Wintel PC machines are always less expensive for equivalent processing power and speed. Those additional devices can be cheaper for PCs although that's not as much a problem at present.

Given that the Mac is only available from one manufacturer, you have a notion how the quality is when you buy and a place to go back to if it breaks. If you buy a Wintel PC you must pay attention to who makes it and who sells it to make sure you get a high-quality machine. This may eliminate some rock-bottom price deals unless you're one of those who knows exactly what to buy. It's sort of a difficult world (PCs) to jump into and make the right decision without a guide. There are so many choices that it becomes more difficult. It can also be very rewarding if you are one who is in the know. It's sort of like buying a car that comes complete except for a few options compared to one for which you have to pick all the major components AND the options. If you choose correctly, you will have the coolest near-custom computer around. There are a lot of blind allies, however.

All that said (sorry to run on) it boils down to the less expensive PCs vs. the more expensive but somewhat simpler to buy and use Mac. Either will do a wonderful job for you but it will entail some heavy research on your part to decide. It is a good idea, as stated before to talk to your friends who use computers. Just make sure they use them for what you will be using them for. Ask them to show you how they work with them and try them yourself. Wait as long as you please to buy because, just like the cameras, they get cheaper every day. Don't wait forever though. It's too much fun to miss!

Good Luck

[fredlord]

Sorry, one more thing.

Laptops by themselves, as was stated previously, are not as satisfactory for final image editing as a conventional CRT monitor or a larger, high-quality LCD monitor. There is too much off-axis variation with the LCD monitors on the laptops and it will drive you crazy. You can, however, buy a laptop with a monitor jack and run an inexpensive conventional monitor off of your laptop for final editing. That way you have a choice whether to edit on the road or at home. Both Mac and PC laptops are available with this feature. I won't go into video circuit boards here (thank goodness, they all sigh) as that's just one of the factors in choosing the proper PC combination or particular Mac model.

[robertwgross]

As I stated previously, I've been maintaining my own machines for over 15 years. Fred's observations and opinions certainly favor Apple, and his observations would have been relatively true until the last couple of years.

Now there are large, reputable manufacturers of PC machines (e.g. HP) that turn out dozens of different models, but if you look closely, you will see one that has been optimized for photographic purposes. It is sort of a "one size fits all, if you are a photographer".

When my last machine died of old age and disease, I walked into my local computer store, picked out the "photographer optimized" model, and walked out with it under my arm, and that took a half hour of my time.

You might ask: What does he mean by photographer optimized?

(1) Lots of RAM
(2) Lots of disk
(3) Lots of USB ports and Firewire ports
(4) placement of such ports for maximum convenience, some on the front and some on the back
(5) software specifically for photo image management

All of the digital devices (camera, flatbed scanner, film scanner, photo printer, etc.) have to get plugged in someplace, and it is nice when somebody thought about that in the factory design.

Further, the newest operating systems are very friendly when it comes to adding peripherals. Compared to the old days, of which Fred may have referred to, this is a big improvement.

---Bob Gross---

[kingstonphotography]

Bob and Fred-
Thanks for the input.

As far as going with a PC (Photographer Optimized), are there any particular make/models that you would recommend (HP, Dell, Gateway, etc)? What do you use Bob? Likewise, what is a good Mac model, Fred?

Thanks again.
-kp

[fredlord]

At no time did I state that there were formerly no reputable manufacturers of PCs. It sounds like someone else wants to start the holy war. I do not. I couldn't care less what type of computer you buy and I don't feel that my opinion is golden.

Probably the most affordable Mac for what you want is the eMac. It comes with the following for $1299.
Incidentally, the clock speeds of the Mac and PC processors are not directly comparable number to number. You will find faster PCs for less money. That is a given.

800MHz PowerPC G4 processor • 256MB SDRAM • 60GB Ultra ATA drive • SuperDrive ( this will create CDs or DVDs) • 56K internal modem • nVidia GeForce 2MX Graphics board • 2 Firewire ports • 5 USB ports • built-in 10/100 ethernet • wireless network ready (Apple Airport - requires purchase of a card)

This is an all-in-one computer. That is to say, it is a single unit with a built-in 17-inch flat-screen CRT monitor and all functions including the speakers are part of the unit. If your ego demands a tower I recommend a PC as there are quite a few handsome ones out there.

You can find the eMac at: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72501/wo/FM4xyQWnFxkl2p5ZFG42iEy0BGR/1.5.0.5.10.11.0.9?61,7

Remember, an equivalent speed PC is cheaper. There are no PCs other than laptops that are all one unit. Whether this is a plus or not is up to you. All PCs except laptops must have a monitor. Most, if not all, PC packages will include external monitors and speakers. Some packages are available with the CD/DVD burners. The only further options for the eMac is more RAM ,which you can purchase cheaper at Costco, and a tilt and swivel stand. There are much faster and more expensive Macs but they wouldn't gain that much in speed without costing quite a lot more. In my opinion this is the only Mac that is even near being price competitive with the legions of PCs available. I will voice no opinions about which is better because they will both do the job. They are quite different in the approach used, is all.

Good luck, try them all.

[Sketcher]

Both the PC & MAC can be the right machine if configured properly. Either one can also be the wrong one if configured poorly.

1. Consider everything you want to do with your computer and determine which peripheals you need or want over the next few years. (Note the references to lots of RAM, Hard Drive space and USB/Firewire ports CDRW/DVDRW etc.. Further mention: price comparable software packages that will perform the image editing you would like to accomplish)

2. Determine your budget and for that budget apply that constraint to item #1. This step alone may determine your platform path.

If you're unsure of what to spec, just visit a couple PC shops with your wish list and see what they recommend within your price point, then visit a couple MAC shops and see what they recommend. You might have to visit more than a couple in order to get ahold of knowledgable users who can get past the PC vs MAC stigmata (It might be a good idea not to even mention that you're considering an alternative).

That's as far as I'll go with the PC/MAC decision. Though if the question is which pre-built PC to get, I can provide some detail for the thinking. If you're interested in building your own, I can provide even more detail - though I'd recommend buying a pre-built if you're not tech savvy and need a good service warranty.

*************************

A recommendation toward laptop thinking. I have multiple PC's and agree that CRT viewing is much better than LCD for image viewing/editing.

(A). However, I enjoy the advantage of the portability of my laptop and take it with on shoots.

(B). I never worry about filling up my CF cards because I can easily download to my Lappy. My Lappy has a CD-RW and more than a few times I've taken some quick shots, showed them to interested passersby and burned a CD for them to take home (Of course, for the aspiring professional - adding a signature file to the CD is a good way to market yourself).

(C). It's also nice for quick larger scale viewing of the pictures and for providing slideshows "on the fly" for people interested in seeing the immediate product of your shoot.

(D). With my Sierra Wireless modem I can also e-mail the pictures w/in a minute of the taken picture.

(E). I have a port replicator (Docking station) for my laptop which connects to a Viewsonic 19" PF790 CRT so I have portability and nice CRT viewing when needed.

Laptops are nearly always more expensive than their desktop counterparts regarding the same horsepower and connectivity, but if portability is even a remote desire - consider a laptop\docking station combo and you'll have the benefit of both worlds. It might be a stretch to get a worthy laptop\spare battery\CD-RW\port replicator setup but there are some good deals out there if you don't need cutting edge. My 2.0 Ghz Compaq N800c w/the accessories mentioned ran me about $2,200.00

[robertwgross]

KP, at the time that I purchased my present machine (November 2002), the HP Pavilion 763n gave me quite a bit for my money. Plus, it was a convenient purchase (boxed and ready, OS and some software loaded, ready to plug in).

However, just like cameras, the PC market changes rapidly, and anything I mention today will be yesterday's news tomorrow. My previous machine was also from HP, if that says anything, and if I needed another one tomorrow, I would likely look at HP initially. But, I would wager that Dell and the rest of them compete closely. They have to.

As I suggested, you can look at the opinions expressed here, but your best bet is to survey your five closest photographer friends. See what they use, because if you need on-the-spot advice, your closest friends will be there. It is possible that this Canon site is a place to post questions on some types of cameras and equipment, but when you get too far out into the computer itself, this is not quite the spot.

Check out the computer retailers near you. If all they have are Apples, then maybe that means something.

Rather than setting a budget and then keeping to it, I would suggest another approach. Figure out what applications you need to run today (e.g. Photoshop). Figure out what it will take in hardware to run that today. Then figure out what applications you are likely to "grow into" over the next few years. Not ten years, because the machine will be obsolete before then. Once you figure out what you will need, then either purchase a machine with a little more "horsepower" than that. In other words, if you think you need a 4-cylinder engine, then buy a 6-cylinder engine.

If you buy a machine with lots of growth capability, then you may find yourself growing into it. For example, expanding RAM up to 1GByte, adding additional hard disk units, adding additional peripherals.

I have three different printers hung on this machine now, and it has the horsepower to keep them all busy.

Your mileage may vary.

---Bob Gross---

[CyberDyneSystems]

Kingstonphotography,

If you decide to go PC, get a Dell. Maybe Gateway,. but Dell has by far the best customer service available and if you go to there site,. you can build your own. Also Dell's are easily upgradable.

Do not be too concerned with the CPU,.. Either Intel or AMD both good choices and I would focus on RAM (think 5123MB for an XPmachine), and Harddrive space over CPU power. All the CPUs Dell will have to offer will be FAST!

Also for Image work,. all the graphics card power and money blown on it these days is a myth! 3D acceleration is for games. Any ATI or Nvidia (which is all anybody offers ) will perform just fine untill you load in DOOM III :)

(Truth be told, the fastest 2D consumer grade graphics card ever made was discontinued,. it was the Matrox G400 No other card at 4 times the cost ever had richer color or detail or accelerated 2D graphics faster)

.. anyways the point is that any graphics card that Dell will offer in there machines will be fine for Photoshop etc. You only worry about your graphics card these days if games are an issue.

Make sure you get the CD-RW drive. It is a MUST have these days.

O-kay here is the most important part!

No really!

The monitor.

For graphics work DO NOT GET A FANCY SLIM LCD!

You want an apature grill. Get A Sony,. 19" or larger if you can afford it.

Understand this,. your PC will be an old warhorse in 10 months. A good Sony Aperture Grill will last the lifetime of half a dozen new PCs.

There is no better monitor than a Sony,. but Misubishi,. NEC or even Viewsonic are also good options. But remember APERTURE GRILL!

Good luck :)

p.s. A laptop is a reasonable alternative. They have ample horsepower and ram these days,. and small external firewire or USB2 hard drives increase there capacity. Again Dell is a good option,. albeit not the most portable. I also think the Japanese hav the most pertable models,. Fujitsu, Sony and Toshiba.

In this case I might recomend with your laptop to again consider a good Aperture grill monitor to stay at home. You can plug your laptop into it for serious editing work at home,. along with the printer,. card readers etc,.. (even a mouse and keyboard) and yet be able to take the actual computer on the road. Best if both worlds.

[elm54]

Cyberdyne is right, monitors are like good lenses you get what you pay for, they hold value, and a good monitor is like a fine lens crystal clear and sharp.
I do feel a good fast video card is a plus for image manipulation, scrolling and rendering long actions etc. I may be alittle partial as I fool around with video also. I have both PC and Mac ( new to Mac ) and an IBM laptop. I lean toward Mac but it seems like there is more inexpensive Pc software availabe ( maybe it's just what you hear most about around here ) but haven't found anything my mac couldn't sw handle. Macs are prettier. :p
Dern this is a long winded subj , no matter how you try to keep it short.:(
This all said (and some one above said it first ) they both will do the job well , so go to both stores , see what catches your eye and go! you can always change your mind next year;)
And if you are a legal reg owner of your sw most co will allow you an exchange on platform sofware. I know Adobe will.:)
Peace
Eric

[fredlord]

All the opinions stated above are good as advice. Seasoned and reasonable. A note: HP may be phasing out personal computers and converting to the Compaq name because of the recent merger. That means there may be some bargains in HP PCs in the near future.

Only one additional item. I work in a digital prepress lab within the largest advertising agency in Denver and we've finally found an LCD monitor that doesn't give any of us headaches, is color adjustable, and reasonably priced. This particular LCD monitor is so usable that our entire Digital Imaging and Art Production staff is being converted over to it. This is a recommendation for one model and no other. We tried the other models from the same brand and they did not, I repeat, did not function as well for us.

The monitor is the Viewsonic VP201mb. It's a 20" LCD monitor than can be used with any personal computer, PC or Mac. I highly recommend it and I'm working on it right now. Present cost is around $1.2K. The price may change at any time.

We tried other Viewsonic LCD monitors. They did not work.

Good luck in your quest. You will have fun.

[Sketcher]

CyberDyneSystems is spot on about the Dell. Upgradable, Service is Stellar and good hardware. You can't beat them for the price when you add it all up. If you can't build it with a specific part you're interested in make sure your base rig is a powerful reference then substitute the add-ins with the lowest cost part and buy a 3rd party replacement (for example, if they don't sell the exact graphics card you want - order the computer with the cheapest card they offer & then buy your card elsewhere, though DELL usually has the best cards available). If you don't know which card you should buy, just make sure it's a mid/high level ATI or Nvidia and you'll be tickled pink.

Regarding ATI and Nvidia graphics cards, neither will disappoint if you're getting the mid or high level performance cards. The ATI finally edged out Nvidia last year in both performance and price point across the board and their recently released 9800 & 9600 series do not dissappoint. Most arguments about ATI & Nvidia will be from gamers; their argument is usually Framerate related (Frames per second). For digital imaging, you don't care about Framerate. Framerate is usually enhanced at the loss of visual quality which makes for a faster action video but poorer "still shot" quality.

I run high end ATI & Nvidia cards and like them both. I'm an avid gamer who's new to digital imaging. I prefer the 2D of the ATI cards over Nvidia and the 3D of Nvidia over the ATI but my ATI 9700 Pro is in my beast rig and I run everything through it w/out a glance back at any of my gear. Both the 2D and 3D from that card are impressive. http://www.anandtech.com is a good place to read up on the ATI & Nvidia cards.

You'll be pleased with either brand, but here's one point you may want to consider: Both Manufacturers produce Dual Monitor cards (you can display your desktop across two monitors side-by-side, there is even a Matrox Parhelia which allows for 3 monitors). Dual Monitor is REALLY nice for working with multiple applications. You can always add a second card later to increase your desktop realestate but buying the dual head card up front saves on the wallet if you're likely to go dual monitor but are just starting out w/one monitor now.

As was mentioned in previous posts:

(1). CRT over LCD.
(2). RAM & HD over CPU. (because new CPU's today are not the bottleneck).
(3). CD-RW is a must (DVD-RW is icing on the cake).
(3). Laptop if you need portability.
(4). Make sure you have the option to expand.

*My reference to determining your budget/then buying your gear - in my estimation, by "Budget" I mean figuring out the absolute top end of what you can spend right now, then how much you anticipate being able to spend over the next couple years. You can max yourself out now with the absolute best in class and have nothing to further your photography or computer peripheral interests if you do not understand your budget. Conversely, you can buy smart now - just make sure your upgrade options are open and you can do some learning and make more informed decisions w/money in the pocket as you go.

In a stretch, it's kind of like drooling over "L" glass. Sure, that one "L" might be the best of all you could ever want, but it will certainly be bought at a price that will significantly curtail any other expenditures you're interested in. Oh, and though you might buy the best you're interested in NOW, as you learn your craft and fine tune your interests you'll likely have a change in preference in how you do your work and the equipment that will get you there. But you have to start somewhere ;). And in computers, what's current and what's good changes every couple years. I liked the previous mention of a CRT being equated to a good lens though. The CRT is definitely worth buying on the top end. It will reward you for many years.

Shoot us some specs of items you're interested in or particulars that concern you and the posts will shorten to more specific answers :).

[martcol]

I use a lap-top and all that's said above regarding the screen is true - it is hopeless for final editing but I get by. However, I have a m/c that I can plug a conventional monitor into which gives me the benefit of two monitors as well. That really is fabulous.

One other thing - if you are going to do a lot with Photoshop 7.0, it likes something called a Scratch Disk on a sperate drive. That's tricky with a Lap-top. Mind you, I have never had a problem and I don't think that basic photo editing you know, tweaking brightness, colour, contrast, sharpening etc. are particularly gruelling for PS.

Martin

[kingstonphotography]

Thanks again to everybody - this is great info.

Sketcher - My requirements will be for digitally processing family and children portraiture, as well as weddings. I realize memory and speed are going to be important...the other things I am learning through this forum is about the graphics cards and PCs that are 'photographically optimized.' I am going to take a look at Dell's website.
Thanks.
kp