Request for help (UK) - Composing the image

[jpdw]

I'm a "beginner ameteur" hoping that a pro / semi-pro may be able to help me with something I need to do for an (non photography) evening class assignment.

I'm trying to get to understand how a pro thinks about a picture as he/she takes it. What do you think about in the few seconds before pressing the shutter?

More specifically, I'm wanting to understand this within the context of composing the image you're taking ... how do you "know" you've got the right things in the frame and the other things correctly out of the frame? ... you get the general picture.

If you can help me, I would like to speak to you over the phone for about 20-30 minutes at a time that would be suitable to you. Clearly I'll make the call so I'm asking simply for the oppprtunity to ask you a few questions.

Please drop me a pm or reply on this thread if you can help me and I'll email you back to arrange something.

Thanks all in advance!

[PhotosGuy]

Experience is the key. Past experience will suggest what you think you want & how to get it. While you're shooting, your brain is churning with variations. What happens in front of you might lead you down a different path. Experience suggests whether it's the right path.

I never "know" you've got the right things in the frame and the other things correctly out of the frame?" because I keep seeing other possibilities in my mind, even after the shoot is over. It just keeps going on & on... :D

I can tell when I have what I, or the client need, but that doesn't mean that I want it to stop there. Sorry if this is a bit muddled. Shoot every day. Build up your own "experience file". Plan for what you need to get & let the happy accidents happen along the way. ;)

[jpdw]

Great stuff PhotoGuy, thank you. "While you're shooting, your brain is churning with variations" is exactly the sort of thing I'm trying to uncover/understand -- whether the 'churning with variations' is of results you've had before (perhaps of similar scenes) or other things you might like to see in the scene infront of you or perhaps you can 'hear' in your mind the client telling you something about the picture he/she wanted you to produce.

As you'll sense, I'm trying to understand how pros actually think in the few seconds before you take what turns out to be a great photograph -- in a kind of matrix-slow-motion type of scene where those few seconds seem to have several minutes worth of thoughts, sounds or images.

I'm hoping a kindly soul will allow me to ask them few questions around this -- you never know, you might discover something about how your technique that you didn't realise you do (allowing you then to do it even better!).

As an aside, I've had a weekend away which included a session racing indoor karts. I've never been particularly good in the past. After the warm up, I set asking the fastest chap in our group similar sorts of questions - about what he thought about on approach to one particular difficult corner. Each time after that I adopted the same process -- looking for a particular braking 'marker', recalling the feeling of the previous time around then lifting off the brake as I felt the slide out of the corner subside,. Although he still beat me in the final race, I finished with the fastest overall lap time by quite a margin (much to his annoyance!).

It's this sort of "understanding how you think about it" that I'm trying to achieve with getting a good photograph.

[KennyG]

I'm not sure I would want to tell someone what to think about as they are taking a picture. It should be whatever they want to think about and what drives them. That's what makes individuals, not clones, or people who have to imitate because they can't think for themselves.

All the best photographers I know have their own style and ways of viewing an image before taking a picture. None of us discuss between ourselves how we do it, we can however see the process in the output, the pictures. Perhaps you should try thinking for yourself and you never know, you may find it works. I don't believe in imitation being the best form of flattery.

[wu_wei0]

pm sent

[jpdw]

KennyG,

thanks for taking the time to reply. I get your point. I'm not trying to get a manual on "how to be #1 in a day", more to understand that there are likely to be similarities between how many great photographers "go about" taking good photos in a way that is dis-similar to non-photographers.

A lot will be experience (experience of what is liked by a purchaser? what looks good later? what feels good at the time?) and as experience is memory of past events that you have personally witnessed it is not possible to 'clone' that (thankfully). Nevertheless, the fact that at certain times one may consider, heed or ignore that experience is interesting (something will make you decide to either heed or ignore?!)

Guessing that you drive a car (many of us do, for good or bad), I would also guess that you attained the requesite combination of knowledge and experience to take & pass a test by getting some experience and also by getting the benefits of an 'expert' that was able to articulate to you how he or she drives. That articulation will have included some elements of the way that person "thought about things" while driving. But this is a digression for which I apologies as this isn't the place for a digression.

I do understand that as professionals you may rightly be guarded about some of your techniques which is why I was principly hoping to be able to converse on a more private means (msn/voice/email etc) where such conversations would be confidential.

Again, thank you for your reply & I apologies if the text of any of my posts has offended - that was not the intention & I wish you well.

[defordphoto]

All the best photographers I know have their own style and ways of viewing an image before taking a picture. None of us discuss between ourselves how we do it, we can however see the process in the output, the pictures.

In all honesty I don't discuss my style just for the simple fact it's my style and I just do it. Like breathing. There's some basic explaining that could be done, but there's no way I can explain to anyone (even if I wanted to) regarding my style just because it's more of a feeling than anything else. And I don't shoot the same "style" everytime I shoot similar subjects.

A photographer's style is something that's developed over years and years of practice and experimentation. Observing other people's styles too for ideas, but then not copying, but adding certain details here and there and then it's just there.

It's like trying to explain why elephants have trunks. Answer: Because that's just the way it is.

[PhotosGuy]

I do understand that as professionals you may rightly be guarded about some of your techniques ... Why? Half the fun is in helping someone else out. If you can do it better, more power to you. ;)
As I said before, "Shoot every day. Build up your own "experience file". Plan for what you need to get & let the happy accidents happen along the way."

[jpdw]

Hi All,

I just want to take a moment to say "Thank You" to everyone that posted replies to this thread in response to my request.

The responses I got back were very interesting and have given me an insight into "how" successful photographers do what they do.

A strong message I got is that there is no subsitute for experience, which I understand and don't disagree on - in fact I guess that having different experiences of past photography is what enables you all to take different pictures as well as allowing you to 'know' what makes a good or bad picture or what to look for to make a good shot better.

But the insight that I feel I have gained is "how" you use that experience (once you've got that experience).

You comments and descriptions of how you "operate" have helped me to complete the non-photography-related course that I was taking. More than that though, it has added fuel to my interest in lifting my own photography skills from "holiday snaps" to decent pictures..... I'm now need to shoot lots to gain the necessary years of experience!

I'll go back to being a regular, quiet, forum member now.

But once again, thank you all.

[vwpilot]

I think one of the things that wasnt mentioned here is that most, if not all, I certainly do, have a picture in their mind before they even pick up the camera of what they want to achieve. We dont go out and just start looking through the viewfinder and come up with something great (well maybe some do, but I think that would not be the norm).

I'll refer to sports shooting since that is my experience, but I think much can apply to anything. When shooting motorsports, or any sports for that matter, things are moving way to fast and happening in a way that there is no way to look through the viewfinder and compose your shot taking your time and thinking about all the rules of photography. So we think about all those things long before that magical moment happens. We evaluate the background, the sun or lighting, and take experience of the game or sport into account and think about what might happen. Then I can put together different ideas of what I want to achieve in my head depending on what happens in front of me.

For instance I was shooting for a team a month ago and they had a red car with yellow accents and were sponsored by Pirelli. I was at a corner and looking at it. I noticed that all along the wall across from me was a Pirelli advertisement that was yellow with red accents. I thought that could be cool, red car with yellow in front of yellow with red and the sponsors logo in the shot. It started at one point, but not too far along the wall there was a tent and crap set up for the corner workers. I knew I didnt want that in the photo. So I knew I had to pan and time my shot at exactly the right time. As it turned out, it wasnt necessarily the MOST artistic photo, but good for the team and good for the sponsor.

But I thought about virtually all the variables long before I put the camera to my eye.

At the point of firing the shutter though it does become just a natural thing that we dont think too much about becuase we have already thought about it beforehand. This where its a little different for sports shooters because of the time involved, but most all the other stuff applies no matter what you are doing.

I think this is important, because even portrait photographers, landscape photographers, PJs, and other photographers should have a clear idea in their mind about what they want their final image to look like. Now MANY times we dont end up with that, as we can then evaluate what is actually in front of us and adjust for that. A landscape photographer might want to shoot a certain field with a mountain in the background and in his head pictures shooting it with a certain lens at a certain time of day and the last time he saw it there were these flowers blooming in the field and a snow cap on the mountain, etc, etc. Then when he gets there things have changed a bit, he re-composes the shot in his head, he moves to a different spot to get a patch of brown grass out of the frame, he uses a slightly longer focal length because there are some funny rocks right on the edge of his frame that he sees and doesnt like, etc, etc.

But, like the sports photographer he had a vision. If you go out and start shooting without a vision already in your head, you are doomed. Even when I arrive at a track I have never seen or a corner I have never shot, I take the time to sit back, look at and evaluate the terrain, the track, the line of the cars, the light and try to see in my head what it is that I want to get out of the photo. Only THEN do I look through the camera and see if my vision works. Then I start to look through and see what might need to change or what might not. Often you get back and find your vision was total crap, you put that into the bag of experience and the next time you visit that track you either avoid that corner or envision something else for it and try again.

In the end much of that vision does come from experience, but you need to have it before you look through the camera or you will not see what you thought you would see in the final image.

BTW, stuff about not wanting to share because its your style or whatever I find pretty much bunk. We ALL emulate others. None of us go out forgetting all we have ever seen by other shooters, we all go to the same places, shoot the same angles and have similar ideas in our head, especially if its something we really liked in the past. The point though is to add your own style to it and to do it better than the last guy. If you can emulate someone, but strive to do it better, you will automatically come away with something that is all yours and not a copy of another. To put it in perspective, at Laguna a couple weeks ago, there was an evening practice session. Someone in the media center showed off an awesome sunset shot he got that night. Immediately all in the media center were amazed as no one had thought to shoot that corner at sunset before and low and behold on raceday around sunset we head out to get our version of the shot and share a 1 foot by 4 foot hole in the catch fencing with probably 15-20 guys all after the shot.

And in the end, every one that I saw come out of that hole were slightly different. All had their own take on it and something they really liked and how they photographed it. Either with angle, exposure, focal length, or something, that made them each unique to the shooter that took it. Many are similar, you cant all aim your 500 at the same car in the same direction at the same time and come up with completely different stuff, but they were all unique.

Share with others, listen to others, look at others work, then get a vision in your head and go make it uniquely yours.

[Maureen Souza]

When I put the camera in front of my face, I often ask myself "Is this the story I want?" I try to look to the edges of the frame and make sure I have it all where I want.... sometimes I move in closer and sometimes I back up. Before I take the picture, I look for visual interest.... textures, leading lines, forefront objects and like shapes. Somewhere in my mind, these aspects of a photograph just make sense to me.

[blue_max]

I'm just pleased if I get a shot in focus, with the subject more or less in the middle with a useable exposure.

Oh, and if I remembered to re-set the iso from 1600!

Graham

[Maureen Souza]

I'm just pleased if I get a shot in focus, with the subject more or less in the middle with a useable exposure.

Oh, and if I remembered to re-set the iso from 1600!

Graham

:D :D :D :D

Well, that too.:rolleyes:

[PhotosGuy]

When shooting motorsports, or any sports for that matter, things are moving way to fast and happening in a way that there is no way to look through the viewfinder and compose your shot taking your time and thinking about all the rules of photography. So we think about all those things long before that magical moment happens. We evaluate the background, the sun or lighting, and take experience of the game or sport into account and think about what might happen. Then I can put together different ideas of what I want to achieve in my head depending on what happens in front of me. Vwpilot made an excellent point! (I'd like to see the shot) ;)

Here's an example that illustrates it. I saw the 2 P-51s on the ground & another in the air & "saw" something like this shot in my mind. As he started to make his pass from a half-mile away I walked into the access road in front of the fence & set up the shot, started panning with him & "guestimated" the shutter release. Turns out that I was a bit early, but very close to what I "saw" before the shot.

I'll look for that shot again next time. Maybe he'll be a bit closer. Maybe I'll shoot a fraction of a second later. Maybe I'll cheat the focus a bit more toward me. Maybe this, maybe that. Maybe the apron security won't start yelling at me at the wrong time! :D :D
Or maybe I'll just PS in the tip of the spinner at the left side. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/PhotosGuy/Air%20Show%202004/Mustangs_0431.jpg

[vwpilot]

Here are a couple takes on the shot I was talking about. like I said, I dont think its mind blowing artistic or going to win any awards, but shooting for the team, I thought it was something them and their sponsor would appreciate. Both could use some adjustments and cropping, these were both processed in a basic batch. For the team they get the special time spent on their copies.;)

http://www.speedarena.com/gallery/albums//Sportscar/ALMS/2005/11%20Petit%20Le%20Mans/01%20Practice%20and%20Qualifying/026.jpg

And another take of it in front of the Pirelli bridge. Same thought, different look.

http://www.motorsportsimaging.com/kruse/images/Petit_05_0232.jpg

But its about knowing in your head what you are after and not just going out and doing a spray and pray. Heck, even when I'm burst shooting, I know what I am after, its not just a fire and see what comes out.

Sometimes the vision works, sometimes not. Sometimes what you see in your head is physically not possible depending on what line a car is taking, where a play might go in a football game etc. But shooting without thinking about it first will yield nothing.

In other forms you do have the time to evaluate through the camera and you use all the same parameters, background, focus, framing, lighting, etc. But usually you still have a vision before looking through the viewfinder.

Hope it helps and if you are so inclined to call overseas, pm me, I'd be happy to talk.

[garbidz]

Composing a picture has a lot to do with the ay our eye-brain constructs our visual reality. There seems to be an inherent sense of balance in our OS. No lesser a man than Goethe studied the psychology of colour and laid a basis to which the physiologists of the next centuries found the physical framework. Our neurones have been wired in the course of evolution in a certain way, not by hazard but in the test of trial and error.

Our eye is a master in finding incoherencies in certain situations whereas in some others a slight deviation from the pure form is found subjectively more balanced. The paintters of many centuries have been aware of this fact and managed to create pieces of art that can capture an unaware subject staring in front of them for a long time.

Shapes have a language as have different light values -we appreciate the object in highlight to be the primary object as well as objects situated in the hot points of a composition. The eye tries to economize its processing as much as possible, that's why we tend to see forms and meaning in shapes produced in a completely random fashion. Clustering the information facilitates its processing and especially detecting any changes appearing.

Now to bring this theoretical knowledge to making photographs is by no means straightforward as our mind is for the first quite blind to its own mannerisms but also (to us at least) such a complicated project that it is impossible to induce from its basic structures and subroutines any clues as to the subjective experience.

But no need to invent everything yourself. Art museums are filled with pictures painted by geniuses who have devoted their lives to the study and reproduction of the visual experience. If somebody asks how a subject should be lighted, I'd advice him to go and see paintings by Rembrandt and Monet. About the language of form, the sculptor Henry Moore could be the one to study. As for the balance and the geometry of a visual presentation, the cubists. Dufy could teach movement and Renoir how one should relate to his models.

A detachment from the medium of photography could liberate from the technical details' getting in the way of seeing the subject of the study: Composition.