Art vs Porn. How thin is the line?

[muffy]

lets start a discussion here. I just went to have a look at the N&G section and i noticed that lot of the pictures(especially by charlesu) are very well done, but there's not much nude. IMO its more towards the playful sexy end, rather than artistic.

So.....how thin is the line between art and porn? is it the effect, color, poses....etc? (i'm asking cos i'm doing some art poses with camera currently)

how would you decide whether a shot is porn or art?

[tiziano]

If you look at the picture, and you thinks it's beautful, then it's art. If not, it's just naked people...
If the subjects are having sex and everything is clearly visible, in a cheap atmosphere, then it's porn.
this is a subjective area, it's not easy to draw a definite line, but... the more far away you are from the average line, the bigger consensus you will get wether it's art or porn.
Just my opinion...

[DocFrankenstein]

Porn always has a power differential portrayed

[soupdragon]

I don't think a line can be drawn in the sand on this subject.
What some may consider acceptable art/nudity others may find distasteful.
That said, some may look at pictures of outrageous acts of sexual debauchery and find artistic merit.
I don't think the debate over what is or is not art has ever been resolved but it would be nice to think it could be sorted here;)

[mgbeach]

If you look at the picture, and you thinks it's beautful, then it's art. If not, it's just naked people...
If the subjects are having sex and everything is clearly visible, in a cheap atmosphere, then it's porn.
this is a subjective area, it's not easy to draw a definite line, but... the more far away you are from the average line, the bigger consensus you will get wether it's art or porn.
Just my opinion...

I don't think art is necessarily beautiful, nor do I think that porn is necessarily ugly. I think porn is perfectly capable of being art and vice-versa. The difference lies to some degree in the intent of the creator, and equally or moreso in its interpretation and use.

[PhotosGuy]

how would you decide whether a shot is porn or art? Remember the Chinese Food Confrontation ... (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104324) thread? In some parts of the country, for some people, life is porn! :D

[muffy]

I don't think a line can be drawn in the sand on this subject.
What some may consider acceptable art/nudity others may find distasteful.
That said, some may look at pictures of outrageous acts of sexual debauchery and find artistic merit.
I don't think the debate over what is or is not art has ever been resolved but it would be nice to think it could be sorted here;)

i clearly state a discussion, not a debate.

[muffy]

Remember the Chinese Food Confrontation ... (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104324) thread? In some parts of the country, for some people, life is porn! :D

ya..the thread that was closed down.

[soupdragon]

i clearly state a discussion, not a debate.

Go on then, tell me what the difference is between a discussion and a debate.

[cosworth]

From my side of the fence porn involves acts of sexual gratification or satiation. Standing naked does not imply that. Coitus does. XXX-lingus does. Power differential can be art and porn.

I have seen photographs that are porn with women fully clothed. I have seen naked art.

It is all in the perception, tastes, desires and fetishes of the viewer. One cannot discuss nor debate the unique views of billions of people.

The Art/Porn line is subjective not objective.

[JohnnyG]

My definition of porn may be radically different from someone else and therein lies the definition of porn: it's decided by the viewer and not by the artist taking or painting the picture.

If it looks like porn to you, it is to you.

[RTMiller]

how would you decide whether a shot is porn or art?

You're asking a bunch of photographers to do something that even the Supreme Court can't seem to do.

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography in a Supreme Court opinion (Jacobellis v. Ohio). He did not offer a specific definition, but rather he stated that "I know it when I see it."

[tiziano]

I don't think art is necessarily beautiful, nor do I think that porn is necessarily ugly..
I see here a confusion between picture and subject. Maybe another example could clarify my opinion: image a novel or o poem. If you think that they are beautiful, you will probably agree that they are somehow a form of art. Even if the subject is not a nice one, like death, as an example. I cannot image anybody saying: this poem is ugly, but it's a masterpiece... :)

[mgbeach]

I see here a confusion between picture and subject. Maybe another example could clarify my opinion: image a novel or o poem. If you think that they are beautiful, you will probably agree that they are somehow a form of art. Even if the subject is not a nice one, like death, as an example. I cannot image anybody saying: this poem is ugly, but it's a masterpiece... :)
The statement I made was in regards to visual media. I meant that there can be pornography that has aesthetic beauty and there can be art which a viewer finds repulsive.

In the example of poetry, the words used could be vulgar without it being considered pornographic. Or, the words themselves could be relatively benign but the imagery and emotions evoked could be considered pornographic.

[Sean-Mcr]

I just asked she who must be obeyed, and she said the difference is that i can have art on my wall and porn over her dead body. I told her her dead body could be considered art or porn depending on who you asked


I've been told to get off the pc:rolleyes:

[tiziano]

The statement I made was in regards to visual media. I meant that there can be pornography that has aesthetic beauty and there can be art which a viewer finds repulsive.

In the example of poetry, the words used could be vulgar without it being considered pornographic. Or, the words themselves could be relatively benign but the imagery and emotions evoked could be considered pornographic.

I understand what you mean, and I guess that the confusion comes from the double meaning of the word "beautiful", which can be used for both an estetichal interpretation, or something higher, which touches a sensitive spot in your soul. I meant the second one.
About your second statement, that porn could be artistic, if you follow that line, then you cannot argue in this thread any more, because the initial thread was giving for granted that pictures are either artistic or porn, and the debate was supposed to be on where the border line is.... Maybe the discussion should be on a different topic: "where is the border line where pictures become pornographic?" But the answer would always be subjective. I know porn when I see it, just like I know art when I see it, but I know too that that is only my opinion! :D

[Big_B]

I told her her dead body could be considered art or porn depending on who you asked


I've been told to get off the pc:rolleyes:

You're a braver man than me!! :lol:

[tiziano]

I just asked she who must be obeyed, and she said the difference is that i can have art on my wall and porn over her dead body. I told her her dead body could be considered art or porn depending on who you asked

I've been told to get off the pc:rolleyes:

:lol: I believe your wife and mine could be great friends!

[soupdragon]

I just asked she who must be obeyed, and she said the difference is that i can have art on my wall and porn over her dead body. I told her her dead body could be considered art or porn depending on who you asked


I've been told to get off the pc:rolleyes:


Now that's funny, i'm in tears here:D :D :D :D

[mgbeach]

I understand what you mean, and I guess that the confusion comes from the double meaning of the word "beautiful", which can be used for both an estetichal interpretation, or something higher, which touches a sensitive spot in your soul. I meant the second one.
About your second statement, that porn could be artistic, if you follow that line, then you cannot argue in this thread any more, because the initial thread was giving for granted that pictures are either artistic or porn, and the debate was supposed to be on where the border line is.... Maybe the discussion should be on a different topic: "where is the border line where pictures become pornographic?" But the answer would always be subjective. I know porn when I see it, just like I know art when I see it, but I know too that that is only my opinion! :D
I see what you mean. It's a fun mental exercise, but not really a winnable debate. Maybe we need a new term for the middle ground: Artnography

[peacock]

I just asked she who must be obeyed, and she said the difference is that i can have art on my wall and porn over her dead body. I told her her dead body could be considered art or porn depending on who you asked


I've been told to get off the pc:rolleyes:

:lol: :lol:

[Streetshooter]

Unfortunately in our American society (not to imply other societies)..this subject has been a bone of contention for many years. Remember Mapplethorpe....his shows were shut down by Jesse Holmes.
Then there was the case of Jock Sturges....his negatives were siezed, equipment, prints, everything for years and when he got the stuff back, it was a mess. So was the work porn or fine art?
The answer unfortunately lies as beauty does...in the eyes of the beholder. To me, the line is not so thin....I feel that in any art form...artist intent is what matters and that creates the boundries of fine art and porn. Photographers are people first and every body has different ideas of what makes a great image. We all have that right to create what we feel. The problem lies in the viewing of the image. We as artist, have to take responsibility for our images and as such also the repercussions if the viewer mis-interprets out intent. Once you hang it on the wall or whatever....it's your responsibility to yourself and the viewer to make sure that the image conveys what you want it to.....if the viewer sees Porn, and your intent was to create Porn...great. If the viewer sees a great Nude and finds whatever in it, and that was your intent....great if the viewer sees Porn and that was not your intent....than the info in the image needs more thought.
Weston did an image of a woman lying on a couch, naked with a gas mask on for the Civil Defense Program. Many politicians shunned the image thinking it was PORN. In fact the image is a great statement of what the Civil Defense Program was set up to protect....Woman, Families etc....
His intent was to play with the idea but certainly not to create Porn.
so...with this in mind.....remember Intent is everything..........later don

[condyk]

...how thin is the line between art and porn?

how would you decide whether a shot is porn or art?

Neither art nor porn exist objectively. It's like the Zen Koan about the tree in the forest falling and whether there would be a sound if there was no one there to hear it. Thus, you don't decide, the perceiver, or experiencer does. There is no line unless someone draws one.

[saravrose]

art is art as soon as somebody, anybody says it is. if you don't know if something is porn, ask your mom.

[waldograce]

Kind of trying to define what Art is.
Pretty hard to nail down where the line is.

[Desertraptor]

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography in a Supreme Court opinion (Jacobellis v. Ohio). He did not offer a specific definition, but rather he stated that "I know it when I see it."

This nails it. I believe porn is in the eye of the beer holder. It's up to the individual to draw the line for themselves but not force their point of view on everyone else.

[lostdoggy]

There was a similar thread that was start in not so long ago that result in some very hard words and some hurt feelings. To me they are the same, there is no line. Porn is a form of art that the religous zealist believe it to lead to deviant thoughts. Unfortunately they don't qualify to be or an expert on the matter of the mind. So to me Porn is art and I'm a pervert to the zealist.

[MattyB]

in my eyes, the first few "warm up" shots of a girl in Playboy are almost art-nudes..

[kenyc]

in my eyes, the first few "warm up" shots of a girl in Playboy are almost art-nudes..

Definitely art in Playboy which is a mag that walks that line of art and porn.

The difference is in the eye, attitudes and beliefs of the beholder. Even a shot of a couple in the act could be art depending on the composition, treatment, etc.

KAC

[waldograce]

art is art as soon as somebody, anybody says it is. if you don't know if something is porn, ask your mom.

Once someone thinks it's porn... You'll have a devil of a time changing their mind.

If only Adam and Eve hadn't tasted that damn apple... we could all enjoy walking around naked.

[kenyc]

Once someone thinks it's porn... You'll have a devil of a time changing their mind.

If only Adam and Eve hadn't tasted that damn apple... we could all enjoy walking around naked.

Hey there's always the various nudist organizations you can join or hang out on nude beaches.... :) Almost like being back to the garden. :)


KAC

[zacker]

is Playboy porn?? the pics, for the most part are artfully done.
what about Hustler? or JuGGS?? Porn?
then again, Im a 40 Year old red blooded american male...what do I know about porn??
lol porn? whats that?? never heard of it... :-)

[muffy]

You're asking a bunch of photographers to do something that even the Supreme Court can't seem to do.

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography in a Supreme Court opinion (Jacobellis v. Ohio). He did not offer a specific definition, but rather he stated that "I know it when I see it."

yeah........interesting topic huh? i always love the sentence " beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder" ;)

[muffy]

i hope i had not been posting porn shots......in other's people eyes............

[Claire]

Playboy is considered porn in Sweden I think. At least that's what everyone thinks of when hearing the name.

Personally I think it's ironic how American society can have such double standards when it comes to sex in general. Nipples aren't to be shown, sex scenes are cut out in movies while the violence prevails, parents not wanting their kids to have sex in their house etc... The same America has every new female singer styled up as the next sex icon no matter her age, there are tons of teenage pregnancies, strip clubs/strippers aren't taboo at all, many modesl/actresses/singers consider posing for Playboy being a boost to their career and majority of porn movies are made in the US.

[PhotosGuy]

Personally I think it's ironic how American society can have such double standards when it comes to sex in general. Nipples aren't to be shown, sex scenes are cut out in movies while the violence prevails, parents not wanting their kids to have sex in their house etc... The same America has every new female singer styled up as the next sex icon no matter her age, there are tons of teenage pregnancies, strip clubs/strippers aren't taboo at all, many modesl/actresses/singers consider posing for Playboy being a boost to their career and majority of porn movies are made in the US.
It has to do with the size thing; "melting pot" & all that. Think of America as a few dozen little countries with different values loosely joined together. In fact, you could drop a few countries into one of our bigger states &, if they weren't on a main road, no one would have any idea that they were there at all. Unless someone lost her top while on stage at the County Fair, & then the wacky, publicity hungry media would re-expose the whole event to the world.
Just 'cause the media make a big thing out of something, doesn't mean that the average person buys into what their raving about at all. We understand that it's just a way of trying to get ratings from the lowest common denominator, & generally ignore them. ;)

[martook]

Playboy is considered porn in Sweden I think. At least that's what everyone thinks of when hearing the name.

No, we don't.






:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[waldograce]

i hope i had not been posting porn shots......in other's people eyes............

I think that everyone one here can see that you are striving for a more artistic approach.

[Moppie]

It has to do with the size thing; "melting pot" & all that. Think of America as a few dozen little countries with different values loosely joined together. In fact, you could drop a few countries into one of our bigger states &, if they weren't on a main road, no one would have any idea that they were there at all.



I love that! :cool:
(the quote that is)

[Claire]

No, we don't.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Ah, ok sorry Martook! lol But c'mon isn't that the general conception? It's put behind the black thingy on the top shelves (if even found, unless it's a very well-stocked magazine store).

Now, in the name of equality (:rolleyes: )Sweden should have a good women's magazine which features hot half nekkid men. :lol: :lol: :lol: