Group Photo Question (again)

[QUASIPHOTO]

OK here's my dilemma. I've been pretty much focusing on learning sports photography, but I have a interest in all other kinds as well. Well my daughter-in laws family wants me to take a family portrait for them (YIKES). They are good people and I know that they will be patient with me, but still I don't want to look like a complete idiot. Soooooooo.......I need some advise. The gear that I have is a 20D, 70-200mm f2.8L IS USM, 24-70 F2.8L USM, 17-85mm EF-S USM, 85mm f1.8 and a 580EX flash. I know that there will be a lot of variables to consider. But, is there one lens you think that I should use over another? What f-stop should I be using mainly? Should I use the flash outside for fill? If they want an inside picture should I bounce the flash off a ceiling? Use a diffuser? I will be shooting in RAW so that I can correct as much as possible. I would gladly appreciate all suggestions and input as possible. Thanks for everyones help.

[glenhead]

I took a group shot of the strange people I work with, and have also done a group shot at a family reunion. I'm a heckuva long way from a pro, but I've had very satisfying results. Here's what I've done:

is there one lens you think that I should use over another?

I'd go with the 24-70. You probably aren't going to be that far away from the people, so you'll want the wider view. I used my 28-105 on the reunion shot (50+ people) and my 50 on the work shot (15 people).

What f-stop should I be using mainly?

I usually try really hard to get the people in front of a not-too-horrendously-ugly background, and use as small an aperture as I can get away with. I like the ability to pretty much ignore depth of field issues so I know there's less chance of someone being out of focus. I always focus on the front row, and know that the back row will be OK because of a small aperture.

Should I use the flash outside for fill? If they want an inside picture should I bounce the flash off a ceiling? Use a diffuser?

You bet, use the flash either inside or out. The fill outside makes a much nicer picture. Inside, I've always used a bounce on my flash (the Lumiquest, though the exotic rubber-banded index card works nicely, too), usually without a diffuser to get the additional punch. I think a straight flash inside would have too much risk of being harsh.

As a final note, I've always made sure that people understood I was a rank amateur at this stuff, and that's made them a lot more willing to cut me some slack on positioning and taking five or six shots of the same grouping/pose. Tell 'em all to blink twice and lick their lips just before you begin your countdown, tell 'em you'll count to three, then shoot the first shot on two to try to catch them with their eyes open.

[Robert_Lay]

Sounds like you want the whole book. Too much to which to respond. To summarize your questions -
What lens
f/stop
Fill flash outside
Inside flash bounce
Inside flash diffuser

There is no answer to either the lens issue or the f/stop issue because from 100 responders you will get 101 answers and they won't mean diddley squat.

I will address the outside issue and leave the inside issues to someone who enjoys talking about flash.

Outside you have two issues - what kind of light and how to get the best color balance for that light.
The kind of light you want is "open shade". That means there is NO direct rays of the sun falling on your subject(s) - only the diffuse light from the open sky above. In other words, find a place where everyone is in shade but still has OPEN sky directly above.

Next, you must learn how to use a white card and calibrate your custom white balance for the light at hand. Basically, that is simply a matter of placing the white card in the exact same light that falls on your subjects, and then orienting it so that a normal to the card points directly at the camera. Then do your custom WB calibration per your user's manual for your camera.

The only remaining issue for outside is what is the ideal time of day. That will be somewhat a factor in being able to get the Open Shade lighting at your chosen location. Obviously, if you only have the open shade conditions between noon and 3 pm, then that's when you shoot. However, everything else being equal, it is generally best to be able to use the early to mid morning sun, depending upon how harsh is the resulting lighting. You are trying to get a lighting that is diffuse enough that the histogram fits in between the boundaries (0 to 255) If it is spilling over at both ends (clipping) then it's too harsh.

[QUASIPHOTO]

Thanks so much for the info......I know it's a difficult question to answer, because of all the variables. But you 2 have already answered a lot of the concerns I had. And givin me a great place to start (since I really don't have a clue). There are only going to be about 7-8 people in the picture, so a fairly small group (which makes things better). I've read that f5.6 to f8 is the way to go with the f-stop to get a better DOF. And I should try and keep my shutter speed around 1/250? I was wondering also if you think one lens is better for this type of shot over another? Or is that a personal preference also? Tripod or not?

[Jon]

The 24-70 is the better of your two mid-range lenses, so if the setting permits, go with that, but don't expect to walk in with one lens on the camera, aim, fire, and print. 7-8 people wil be 2 rows, one seated and one standing, so DoF shouldn't be too much of a problem (unless they want a poster-sized print). Shutter speed, you got a tripod? No reason to hold 1/250 with either the 17-85 or 24-70; you should easily be good down to 1/100 even hand-held; maybe 1/50 with a tripod before you need to start worrying about them squirming too much. But let the available light and your preferred ISO help you decide. We don't know what the conditions will be (aside from not torrential downpour outside). If you're shooting in open shade outside you might want to use the flash as a kicker - crank in a little -FEC, you don't want it to be the main light, just a tickler. Indoors, of course, your flash will need to be your main source unless you really like high ISO settings. Can you get it off-camera (Off-Camera Shoe 2 at a minimum)?

[QUASIPHOTO]

The 24-70 is the better of your two mid-range lenses, so if the setting permits, go with that, but don't expect to walk in with one lens on the camera, aim, fire, and print. 7-8 people wil be 2 rows, one seated and one standing, so DoF shouldn't be too much of a problem (unless they want a poster-sized print). Shutter speed, you got a tripod? No reason to hold 1/250 with either the 17-85 or 24-70; you should easily be good down to 1/100 even hand-held; maybe 1/50 with a tripod before you need to start worrying about them squirming too much. But let the available light and your preferred ISO help you decide. We don't know what the conditions will be (aside from not torrential downpour outside). If you're shooting in open shade outside you might want to use the flash as a kicker - crank in a little -FEC, you don't want it to be the main light, just a tickler. Indoors, of course, your flash will need to be your main source unless you really like high ISO settings. Can you get it off-camera (Off-Camera Shoe 2 at a minimum)?
WOW Jon great stuff.....thanks a ton. Exactly what I was looking for. I don't know exactly where and when I'll be shooting this, but sounds like a week from this sat. So I know that I'll have to make adjustments once I get there........BUT this information gives me a great place to start so that I'm not totally fumbling around in the dark. Plus I can practice between now and then. This forum is the greatest. I assume that I should use ISO 100 as well for less noise. Possibly 200 max?

[Jon]

Either one will be good with the 20D. Don't be afraid to push to 400 and, if it becomes necessary to keep shutter speeds reasonable, to 800. More than that and start planning on doing some noise reduction.

[QUASIPHOTO]

Either one will be good with the 20D. Don't be afraid to push to 400 and, if it becomes necessary to keep shutter speeds reasonable, to 800. More than that and start planning on doing some noise reduction.
OK great!!.......this is new territory to me, so I'm very nervous. But really excited to venture into this aspect of photography. It will be really fun. The post processing has me a bit more concerned......but that's a whole other issue. Now I have a good place to start and can make adjustments and hope for the best.

[Merle]

QUASIPHOTO (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/member.php?u=31704) vbmenu_register("postmenu_874289", true); ,
Boy, there is more to discuss about this thread than one post can talk about.

first I would go with your 70-200, this will be your best focal length for portraits. You may have to use one of your smaller lenses if you are inside and room does not allow you to use your bigger lens. Use fill flash when ever possible 1 1/2-2 stops under your main light reading. Set fill light off to the side and bring the light in at a 45 degree angle if your equipment will allow.

Bounce lighting can be tricky. Directly off of the ceiling will give people a raccoon look around their eyes. Bounce your light into the corner where the wall and the ceiling come together. This will give you flat lighting which is not my favorite portrait lighting. A second light source set up at the 45 degree to the side position at 1 1/2-2 stops under your main light source will give your clients faces more dimension. Be sure to do a custom white balance as bounce lighting can pick up all kinds of crazy colors.

Next will be your groupings, remember Mom and Dad always should have the place of prominence in the center of your grouping build your traditional oval or diamond shape group with the children outward from Mom and dad. Outdoors, I would group the family a little looser, where inside I would tighten the group up a little more.;) :) :D

Good Shooting To Ya !!
Merle

[QUASIPHOTO]

QUASIPHOTO (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/member.php?u=31704) vbmenu_register("postmenu_874289", true); ,
Boy, there is more to discuss about this thread than one post can talk about.

first I would go with your 70-200, this will be your best focal length for portraits. You may have to use one of your smaller lenses if you are inside and room does not allow you to use your bigger lens. Use fill flash when ever possible 1 1/2-2 stops under your main light reading. Set fill light off to the side and bring the light in at a 45 degree angle if your equipment will allow.

Bounce lighting can be tricky. Directly off of the ceiling will give people a raccoon look around their eyes. Bounce your light into the corner where the wall and the ceiling come together. This will give you flat lighting which is not my favorite portrait lighting. A second light source set up at the 45 degree to the side position at 1 1/2-2 stops under your main light source will give your clients faces more dimension. Be sure to do a custom white balance as bounce lighting can pick up all kinds of crazy colors.

Next will be your groupings, remember Mom and Dad always should have the place of prominence in the center of your grouping build your traditional oval or diamond shape group with the children outward from Mom and dad. Outdoors, I would group the family a little looser, where inside I would tighten the group up a little more.;) :) :D

Good Shooting To Ya !!
Merle

WOW!!!!! Thanks a ton!! Wonderful information. Very helpful.