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aliengin
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:11
This happened twice. Client finds me, asks if I can shoot for them. We agree on the money and payment then they cancel.
Last incident really pissed me off. They cancelled less than 24 hours, did not give any reason or return my 4 emails and 2 phone calls. Yet they had the nerve to ask me after the event if they can see what I shot.
Is this a tactic for trying to get photos cheaper? Or just my bad luck with really unprofessional PR firms.

Numenorean
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:14
I don't understand.

Why would they ask to see what you shot if they cancelled? How would you still shoot anything?

Mike
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:27
I don't understand.

Why would they ask to see what you shot if they cancelled? How would you still shoot anything?

Neither do I! :confused:

Rolfe D. Wolfe
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:39
I guess what she means is the client decided not to go thru with the rest of the order?

Photog shot the event, showed proofs to the client, and then the client walked away???

Thats what i got.

aliengin
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:42
Sorry I wasn't clear. It was a race to shoot. They cancelled but they know I would be out there still shooting and they saw me. Now asking to see what I got. I am thinking now they are going to say "We'll pay xxx amount. What do you think?"

joedlh
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:45
You got shots after a cancellation? What was it, a public event that you went to anyway? If so, it sounds like perhaps they weren't happy with the results from the photographer whom they elected to use instead of you. I would show them low -- very low -- resolution shots with "PROOF" stamped all over them. I wouldn't pass up a sale if there's one to be had. But don't trust them an inch. If they're interested in any, before you give them high res shots, extract a down payment from them that at least covers your costs.

aliengin
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 11:52
I guess what she means is the client decided not to go thru with the rest of the order?

Photog shot the event, showed proofs to the client, and then the client walked away???

Thats what i got.

No. Sorry I wasn't clear on the first post. Here how it went:
A week before the race, race organizers asked me if I can exclusively shoot for them. I am not going to go into details but we agreed on the price and licencing. Got cancelled without any reason last minute. I still went and shoot it for myself. Now got an email if they can see what I shot.

Numenorean
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 12:06
Well I don't do those kinds of events but for any event that I do (other than a portrait sitting) I require 50% to reserve that time, which is non-refundable. That may not be normal in your industry though. But also if it was cancelled, I wouldn't go shoot either.

Rolfe D. Wolfe
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 12:46
No. Sorry I wasn't clear on the first post. Here how it went:
A week before the race, race organizers asked me if I can exclusively shoot for them. I am not going to go into details but we agreed on the price and licencing. Got cancelled without any reason last minute. I still went and shoot it for myself. Now got an email if they can see what I shot.

Well in that case, do as joe has said.

Show them low res shots so they can't do anything with them.

DONT POST THEM ONLINE!!!

And if they want to proceed with orders make sure in the end, no matter what, you cover your costs.

TeleFragger
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 12:51
^^ I agree.. and ta boot.. id have them come in to look.. nice high res pics..... if they go to give you a price.. you say no the price is XXX per... (and hopefully higher).. and tell them you originally cut them a deal and they cancelled.. now this was on your time and your time is valuable.. ... if they say.. no way too much.. you say.. not a big deal... as you know they will go back and think about it if there were any shots that really catch them... they will be back

n0w0rries
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 15:50
Sounds like you need a contract.

Make them buy X number of images to see them.
If they want to buy them all, it's the original deal + 10%
or something similar

If they say no, they are just trying to jerk you around a little more.

LONDON808
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 18:28
IF you did not have a piece of paper with a signature you NEVER had a booking,

if you did then you should still be paid, UNLESS you downloaded a contract online and it means NOTHING

Hogloff
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 20:08
Sounds like you need a contract.

Make them buy X number of images to see them.
If they want to buy them all, it's the original deal + 10%
or something similar

If they say no, they are just trying to jerk you around a little more.

Good way to piss them off...and possibly any future business.

jra
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 20:16
So the client canceled but you still decided to shoot the event? I guess if I was the client and knew that you were going to shoot the event even if I didn't pay you, I would probably opt not to pay also ;) That said, I assume that you're trying to run a business and make money with your images, if that's the case, offer them for sale. I personally think it was a mistake to shoot something that was canceled on you.

Dan Marchant
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 21:05
Not sure from the OP if you are charging just a shooting fee, a shooting fee plus per image cost or just charging a per image cost.

Either way the first thing you need is a contract or a set of terms and conditions which include a cancellation policy. Cancellation within 48 hours = 50% of the shooting fee (if you are charging one) or a fee equal to x number of images. ALL clients sign and return this prior to shooting.

As for their renewed interest - just treat it as a normal job, as if they had never cancelled. Meet with them to show the the high res images or, if you can't do that send low res watermarked proofs. The former is better because they see the real quality of the image and you are in control. If they want to buy they are the normal price, including a shooting fee if you charge one. I certainly wouldn't increase the price but at the same time there is no way they should get a discount for messing you around.

Mark1
8th of November 2011 (Tue), 22:38
With you sending 4 emails and 2 calls you are showing that you are desperate for the job. Weather you really or not is a moot point. So sure, they are trying to get something cheaper than before. You have hinted to the fact that they can.

But as said already if a sale is to be made, I will make it. Being a dick about it will just make the client go else where next time. I would be stern with them but in a very calm way. One that shows your dismay, but at the same time still willing to do business and take there money.

cdifoto
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 01:46
You screwed yourself by going and shooting despite the cancellation.

Hogloff
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 07:06
You screwed yourself by going and shooting despite the cancellation.

Why do you say that? Sounds like the original client is interested in the work and if played right, there is money still to be made here.

n0w0rries
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 09:06
Good way to piss them off...and possibly any future business.

What future business? They burned the guy twice. What happens when you don't pay your cell phone bill on time? You get a late charge. Do they go "Oh no, if we give him a late charge he might switch to another carrier!"

Hogloff
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 09:12
What future business? They burned the guy twice. What happens when you don't pay your cell phone bill on time? You get a late charge. Do they go "Oh no, if we give him a late charge he might switch to another carrier!"

He shot the event. Work has been done. Client has now approached him regarding the photos. Sounds to me like there is still interest in the photos which means money still can be made. Going away pissed off guarantees you get squat.

cdifoto
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 11:06
Why do you say that? Sounds like the original client is interested in the work and if played right, there is money still to be made here.

You devalue your time when you try to charge a fee then show up anyway. That also affects the sale of the images themselves. It knocks the price way down.

Some money isn't always better than no money.

Hogloff
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 13:23
You devalue your time when you try to charge a fee then show up anyway. That also affects the sale of the images themselves. It knocks the price way down.

Some money isn't always better than no money.

Mistake was already made shooting the event on spec. Second mistake would be walking away from $$$ just in spite.

S.Horton
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 13:32
No. Sorry I wasn't clear on the first post. Here how it went:
A week before the race, race organizers asked me if I can exclusively shoot for them. I am not going to go into details but we agreed on the price and licencing. Got cancelled without any reason last minute. I still went and shoot it for myself. Now got an email if they can see what I shot.

This is good news. That's a buy signal.

Provide proofs, negotiate price, and that price should be the same as if they had signed in the first place.

Or, maybe a little more -- I once heard a consultant say "when you want to kill 'em, bill 'em."

Now, if you're just in the mood to have some fun, don't respond for about a week. After all, you're busy.

kombisaurus
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 14:48
If you shot the event in the same manner you would have if they were paying you, then I'd be tempted to simply offer them the opportunity to "un-cancel" the job before showing them any photos.

"Oh, so you changed your mind about cancelling? Well you're in luck! We can go back to the original arrangement."
Don't penalize them, but don't reward them either.

Letting them pick and choose just a few photos they like and then them paying you perhaps 25% of what you would have earned even though you covered the event as planned is simply rewarding them for their underhandedness, and encouraging them to do it again.

Mistabernie
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 14:57
The vindictive side of me says to make an appointment to go show them, then cancel at the last minute.

The personable side of me says to either show them high res images and tell them that if they want to purchase anything, they need to get close to the original amount that was discussed.

cdifoto
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 15:25
Mistake was already made shooting the event on spec. Second mistake would be walking away from $$$ just in spite.

Depends on the amount of money.

What you call spite, businesses call protecting their value. Heavy discounts = desperate seller = open door for more "cancellations" and heavy discounts.

Again, some money is not always better than no money.

Mistabernie
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 15:29
Depends on the amount of money.

What you call spite, businesses call protecting their value. Heavy discounts = desperate seller = open door for more "cancellations" and heavy discounts.

Again, some money is not always better than no money.

Not that you need me to say it, but this is an excellent point. OP, don't go out of your way to work with these people; they've already cost you money by bailing on your agreement. For all you know, you'll schedule a meeting, and the night before someone will show up with a couple hundred excellent quality images that they'd just LOVE to hand over because the organizers will put 'photos by xxxx' on their main page. This of course leads me back to my first suggestion in a way. Dont de-value yourself by trying to recoup part of what was lost by them bailing on you.

TGrundvig
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 15:37
Next time, consider charging a booking fee up front that is non-refundable. That way, they would be less likely to back out, and it shows you to be a serious professional that takes their time seriously. I know quite a few photogs that require a portion of the fee up front. If the client has seen your work, and likes it, then there should be no hesitation in an agreement like this.

Hogloff
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 16:03
Depends on the amount of money.

What you call spite, businesses call protecting their value. Heavy discounts = desperate seller = open door for more "cancellations" and heavy discounts.

Again, some money is not always better than no money.

I agree with this, but the hard work has already been done...he went and spent his time shooting the event. To pull out now is a total waste of that event. I'd get whatever out of this client and handle future business ( if there is going to be any ) in a different manner with money upfront for booking the event.

I don't see gaining anything by walking away from this. The walking should have been prior to shooting the event. Once you have gone through all the effort of shooting the event, why not get something for that effort.

cdifoto
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 16:14
I agree with this, but the hard work has already been done...he went and spent his time shooting the event. To pull out now is a total waste of that event. I'd get whatever out of this client and handle future business ( if there is going to be any ) in a different manner with money upfront for booking the event.

I don't see gaining anything by walking away from this. The walking should have been prior to shooting the event. Once you have gone through all the effort of shooting the event, why not get something for that effort.
Think past a quick buck and look at it long term.

I wouldn't accept "whatever out of this client" - I'd accept the previously agreed rate (or more) or nothing.

Hogloff
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 16:41
Think past a quick buck and look at it long term.

I wouldn't accept "whatever out of this client" - I'd accept the previously agreed rate (or more) or nothing.

I guess you and I differ on this. I'd take money earned today and would handle any future business differently with this customer. Walking away from money is not my style.

Dan Marchant
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 18:59
The OP hasn't in any way weakened their position - they made it clear that they would have shot this event even if they did not have a client, so any money/time invested would have been invested anyway. As a result they have the images and are free to do what they want, including selling them online.

The former client demonstrated a desire to buy images when they hired him. Despite cancelling they clearly still have an interest as shown by the fact that they are back. The OP has the images and they don't. No reason why he should offer them a discount or special deal.

RDKirk
9th of November 2011 (Wed), 19:11
The OP hasn't in any way weakened their position - they made it clear that they would have shot this event even if they did not have a client, so any money/time invested would have been invested anyway. As a result they have the images and are free to do what they want, including selling them online.

The former client demonstrated a desire to buy images when they hired him. Despite cancelling they clearly still have an interest as shown by the fact that they are back. The OP has the images and they don't. No reason why he should offer them a discount or special deal.

The OP should offer them the original contract. Maybe he would have shot the event anyway, maybe not--that's irrelevant to the deal they originally had.

The OP might have decided at the last minute to stay home, but they ensured he'd shoot it with an empty promise, now they want to pick and choose the results. I'd make them go back to the original deal if they want anything. No soup for them.

cacawcacaw
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 17:22
The OP should offer them the original contract. ... You'd really have to play it by ear. The client might be absolutely desperate for his photos, or they might just want to see if he came up with anything better than what they already have. They might even be trying to find a shot of one particular person that they missed.

This is how I would proceed: If they're a desirable long-term client, than a small retainer gets them a viewing (not a sample) of the event photos. Perhaps they would even get a significant discount in exchange for booking deposits on future events. If this is a one-time deal, pre-payment for X number of photos gets them the viewing and the opportunity to buy more at full prices, which would be significantly higher than the prices offered for an advance booking.

I would never send low-res samples because they might just decide that your work sucks and never get to know how good the processed photos look at full size.

http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/11/09/2480_44%20Gursky_thumb.jpg (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1113394)

RDKirk
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 17:27
If they're a desirable long-term client,

If they were a desirable long-term client, this thread would not exist. Desirable commercial clients don't behave in this fashion:

We agree on the money and payment then they cancel.
Last incident really pissed me off. They cancelled less than 24 hours, did not give any reason or return my 4 emails and 2 phone calls.

cacawcacaw
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 18:40
If they were a desirable long-term client, this thread would not exist. Desirable commercial clients don't behave in this fashion: I used to have an office manager who encouraged us to go after the most abrasive clients. There's always a chance that they are extremely profitable but are still available because no one is willing to put up with them.

Aliengin said that the client is a PR firm. It doesn't excuse their rudeness but they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try to milk their resources down to the last drop. If nothing else, it would be fun to taunt them by implying that the photos have already been picked up by another firm.

Edit: Ali, I've changed my mind. After looking at your site, I realize that you don't have to prove yourself to anyone. Fantastic work. Simple, if they want to pre-purchase ten photos at $500 each, you'll arrange for a viewing. Ok, I'm going back to look at more of your photos.

RDKirk
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 18:45
I used to have an office manager who encouraged us to go after the most abrasive clients. There's always a chance that they are extremely profitable but are still available because no one is willing to put up with them.

And that's why he should offer them the original contract, but certainly not reward them for their boorishness.

memoriesoftomorrow
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 19:26
Personally if they wanted to buy shots I'd charge a premium over the original offer. It sounds like they may have tried to use someone for free instead or came up with some other low cost alternative that crashed and burned. If they want decent photos they will have to pay for them, handsomely too if it were me. They don't have the option of hiring someone else now the event has passed.

What is more as they didn't hire you "exclusively" in a way the shots you have taken now have arguably lost value in the sense that other people could have shot the event as well. I'd turn that on it's head myself and now seek to be compensated (through the premium) that you didn't get exclusivity.

The original contract is no longer applicable since "exclusivity" no longer exists. New terms, new contract, new price.

cacawcacaw
12th of November 2011 (Sat), 20:32
... The original contract is no longer applicable since "exclusivity" no longer exists. New terms, new contract, new price. I know nothing about the photography business but wouldn't it be typical to charge far more for an existing shot than you would charge, per shot, to cover an event? And wouldn't one charge way more for a PR firm to have limited rights to the shot than you would charge a runner or cyclist for an 8x10 to put in their den?