Is this a good tripod & pan head combination?

[l bo]

I need to upgrade my tripod and have been wanting to get a pan head to shoot panoramics. I am leaning towards the Bogen Manfrotto 3021PRO tripod and the 3047 3 way head with QR they make. Tripod runs $150-$180 and the head is about $80.

Does anyone have either (or both!) that they could comment on? Is there another bargain for good quality I have over looked?

Thanks in advance.

[DocFrankenstein]

I have the head. I hate it.

The legs are nice.

[l bo]

Can you elaborate on the head? What don't you like about it? I like the bevels, and quick release and seems like a good price.

[DocFrankenstein]

Well... it's heavy... and cumbersome. And you have three levers which interfere with carrying the tripod. You hit people on the head with them... They get tangled somewhere and...

It's personal as you can see. I can sell it to you no problem. LOL

[SkipD]

The 3021BPRO is great (the B is for Black - recommended). I use a 488RC2 ballhead for general purpose work on it. I don't care for any of the 3-way heads, but that's a personal preference thing.

[jrsforums]

I have the 488RC2 and this, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=186289&is=REG&addedTroughType=search, the Bogen 3437 3D Magnesium head....light & no long arms.

John

[Scottes]

I have both, the 3047 and the 3021PRO. The tripod is great, the head not so much, for the reasons DocFrankenstein mentioned. But I believe that these points are valid for most standard 3-way heads, so you may be out of luck if these points annoy you. They're simply all big and cumbersome and the handles are a pain.

I also have the Bogen 410 compact gear head. Now *this* is a wonderful 3-way with none of the normal problems of a 3-way, and nothing but benefits. Except that you can't pan freely, which might be a desired thing at times. And the price blows your budget, since this head is $190 alone. This is by far my favorite head for telephoto panos. It's awesome for this.

Personally I can't stand a ball-head for landscape-type photography. I suffered for over a year doing landscapes with a ballhead and hated framing a scene with one.

You will not want a ballhead if you are ever thinking of doing multi-row panos. Once you release the ball you have no control over the tilt, so a second row of pictures may have a different tilt - in fact I can easily say that they *will* have a different tilt. Stitching programs will have a problem with this different tilt, and only the very good programs will handle it at all, and it will be a pain for you to stitch such a photo even then.

You might want to take a look at a fluid-head for panos. I almost bought one but didn't like the lack of angle degree marks. Also, they're almost as big and heavy as a 3-way, but with only 1 handle - but it's a much bigger handle.

The 3047 isn't expensive and will do just fine for you. But don't be surprised if it isn't perfect, and don't be surprised if you replace it in a year. But I would strongly suggest the 3437 that John mentioned, for a very similar price. It has none of the drawbacks of the 3-handled 3-ways. If I had gotten that one I probably never would have gotten the 410 gear head since the 3437 is a keeper.


You could do with a slightly lesser tripod if you want to save a few bucks. The non-pro 3021 doesn't have the re-positionable center column, and you probably won't miss that unless you're thinking of doing macros. The 3001 is also a very good tripod, quite similar but shorter. Again, I have the 3021PRO and I love it, and recommend it wholeheartedly. But if you want to save a few bucks, others will do just fine.

Take a look at this kit (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=353325&is=REG&addedTroughType=search), the 3021PRO and the 3437 for $237. The 3021BN version of this kit saves only $8.

[CPALIU]

what's the difference between a ball head and a 3 way head? I'm actually in the process of picking up a tripod and head combination myself for a 20d and a 100-400mm L lens.

[gasrocks]

General rule (according to a lot of people): ballhead for sports and wildlife, 3 way for landscape.

[DocFrankenstein]

Scottes is spot on with that 410 bogen. I've seen the ballhead and it seems it would be a good choice for all-around shooting. Excellent for for macro too.

Sometimes you'd jam a finger in it if you're not careful. I still have a black nail after 70-200 + 2 flashes and rebel landed on it.

[CPALIU]

Does anyone have a link to a site that shows how the ballhead and 3way are different? I'll be using the camera to shoot motosports.

[Scottes]

A ballhead... Imagine you're holding a Christmas ornament in your hand. If you hold your hand loosely the ornament can move freely in just about any direction, until the hanger hook thingee hits your thumb or fingers. That's a lot of free movement. But squeeze your hand and the ornament is stuck in place, and doesn't move.

This is how a ballhead works. Now imagine that the camera would attach to the part of the ornament where you attach the hanger. Again, with the grip loosened the camera can move freely, but the camera plate will hit the edge of the gripping portion of the head so you are somewhat limited in movement. It's also easy to spin, which makes panning easy. You can quickly and easily point the camera in just about any direction.


With a 3-way head you can also turn the camera in almost any direction, but it has 3 locks which will allow movement in 1 direction at a time. So you loosen 1 lock, and you can point the camera up or down. Loosen another and you can tilt the camera left or right. Loosen the 3rd lock and now you can pan the camera. Again, these locks are generally loosened and tightened one at a time. This means that it takes time to swing to the left and raise the camera a little. By the time you do the car or bird or deer will be gone.

A 3-way is preferred for landscapes and such, basically because mountains and tress don't move so you have plenty of time to move the camera to the position you wish.


From these explanations it seems like a ball-head is the best of both worlds, but ball-heads have a very annoying problem in that they usually creep. That is, you loosen the ball, position the camera and tighten the ball - but when you let go the camera will almost always move a little due to the weight of the camera and lens. Its very unusual to be able to balance a camera perfectly over a head, so it will be heavy on one side. When you let go, the ball-head will slip a little, and gravity moves things a little.

This is not always a problem if you're not so finicky about framing. I am finicky, and when I set up a scene in a viewfinder I want it to stay that way! If the front-heavy camera has a tendency to flop forward a degree or two it may destroy all my efforts to perfectly frame the scene. So I don't use a ball-head when doing landscapes or similar.


The general rule is to use a ball-head for action, a 3-way for landscapes. However, a ball-head is more versatile and *can* be used for both, whereas a 3-way would be darned difficult to use when trying to shoot cars at a racetrack, or to track a bird in flight. A ball-head might slip a bit when doing landscapes, but this is greatly lessened with short/light lenses, and you can get used to it. If you find that a ball-head doesn't cut it for both then get a 3-way later.


In a nutshell, CPALIU, you will definitely want a ballhead for motorsports.

But this brings up another thing - tripods aren't a best best at a racetrack! Even with a ball-head there will be times when the tripod is in your way. The 100-400 isn't heavy enough to *require* a tripod, but it's not light either. I'd strongly suggest that you look into a monopod with a tilt/swivel head. Something like this (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=5522&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) - or even better, get one with a tilt/swivel with a quick-release plate, like this (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=353309&is=REG&addedTroughType=search).

A tilt/swivel head basically allows you to point the camera up or down. You tilt the lens by tilting the monopod, and pan by spinning the monopod. For the 100-400 and motorsports this will be a LOT better than a tripod with a ballhead. And it's much lighter and a lot cheaper, too. The quick release plate will let you easily remove the camera from the monopod and use it handheld. For motorsports you'll do this a lot with the 100-400. Usually, probably, until you get tired and use the monopod to give your muscles a break.

[Harry Settle]

Portraits and landscapes, the 3047 is excellent.

[DocFrankenstein]

Yay for 3047!

Make an offer if anybody's intrested. I have one in toronto

[CPALIU]

In a nutshell, CPALIU, you will definitely want a ballhead for motorsports.

But this brings up another thing - tripods aren't a best best at a racetrack! Even with a ball-head there will be times when the tripod is in your way. The 100-400 isn't heavy enough to *require* a tripod, but it's not light either. I'd strongly suggest that you look into a monopod with a tilt/swivel head. Something like this (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=5522&is=REG&addedTroughType=search) - or even better, get one with a tilt/swivel with a quick-release plate, like this (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=353309&is=REG&addedTroughType=search).

A tilt/swivel head basically allows you to point the camera up or down. You tilt the lens by tilting the monopod, and pan by spinning the monopod. For the 100-400 and motorsports this will be a LOT better than a tripod with a ballhead. And it's much lighter and a lot cheaper, too. The quick release plate will let you easily remove the camera from the monopod and use it handheld. For motorsports you'll do this a lot with the 100-400. Usually, probably, until you get tired and use the monopod to give your muscles a break.

I've thought about the monopod, but I would also like to be able to mount a camcorder on the tripod which is why I'm looking for a good compromise with the tripod.

[l bo]

Thanks for the feedback and explanations.

[CPALIU]

For some reason when I went to Samy's photo thye said I should get a 3way head instead of a ballhead for shooting motorosports. Would anyone know why? I didn't really ask into to much detail as I was there to pickup something else and was in a hurry.

[dml]

I've thought about the monopod, but I would also like to be able to mount a camcorder on the tripod which is why I'm looking for a good compromise with the tripod.
If you really intend to use a camcorder a significant amount of time you might want to investigate a fluid damped three way head. It will give you a much smoother pad & tilt movement when shooting.

[Scottes]

For a camcorder a 3-way can make more sense, since it will lock the panning in any one of the 3 angles. I guess. But dml has a very good suggestions - a fluid 3 way could be a good compromise for both the long lens and camcorder. Though I'd want to test it to make sure that it can pan fast enough - I know that the one and only fluid head I tried was a little slower to move than I would have liked for action with a long lens. Fluid and smooth, heck yes, but for action with a long lens I'd want very quick maneuverability.

[CPALIU]

If you really intend to use a camcorder a significant amount of time you might want to investigate a fluid damped three way head. It will give you a much smoother pad & tilt movement when shooting.

No the camcorder wont be the primary use. It will maybe make up 5-10% of the total use.

[Todd Jacobsen]

I'm just getting used to my ball head. I like the "control" a 3-way head provides but that can be somewhat combersome as well. 3-way heads tend to be more "sticky" in movement.

I only like using a ball head if I have time. The head came with a panning capability (separate from the ball) which is nice. I find the ball head moves in ALL directions when the intent was just to move slightly in one direction. I'm still getting used to it.

In either case, I would use a monopod in the scenario (race cars) you provided. The monopod can be braced against your body (or pocket) and doesn't need floor space to steady your camera.

[CPALIU]

I also have the Bogen 410 compact gear head. Now *this* is a wonderful 3-way with none of the normal problems of a 3-way, and nothing but benefits. Except that you can't pan freely, which might be a desired thing at times. And the price blows your budget, since this head is $190 alone. This is by far my favorite head for telephoto panos. It's awesome for this.


The 3047 isn't expensive and will do just fine for you. But don't be surprised if it isn't perfect, and don't be surprised if you replace it in a year. But I would strongly suggest the 3437 that John mentioned, for a very similar price. It has none of the drawbacks of the 3-handled 3-ways. If I had gotten that one I probably never would have gotten the 410 gear head since the 3437 is a keeper.



Would you have a recommendation thats in between the 3437 and the 410? The 3437 doesn't have quite the load capacity that I would want while the 410 is simply out of my budget.

[Scottes]

I checked through B&H and couldn't find anything that I'd be interested in. I'd go with the 3437 - the 6.6lb capacity will be more than enough for a 300D and any lens you'd use on this rig. Any lens that's too big or heavy for this head will most likely cost you well over $1,500. By that point you'll also be able to afford a bigger better more expensive head - and you'll have a much better idea of what you want.

[CPALIU]

I checked through B&H and couldn't find anything that I'd be interested in. I'd go with the 3437 - the 6.6lb capacity will be more than enough for a 300D and any lens you'd use on this rig. Any lens that's too big or heavy for this head will most likely cost you well over $1,500. By that point you'll also be able to afford a bigger better more expensive head - and you'll have a much better idea of what you want.

the 3437 would work well with a 100-400 L lens on a 20d? What about if I added the battery grip? I believe the 20d with the 100-400 L lens is around 5 lbs?

[Scottes]

24.2 oz + 10.2 oz + 48 oz = 82.4, or 5.2 lb - plenty of room. Also, the Bogen stuff has a tendency to be under-rated in my opinion. It's solid stuff. And since the 100-400 has a tripod ring the balance will be nice - it's easier to support a balanced rig rather than one that's decidedly lens-heavy.

Though I've never seen this head I wouldn't hesitate on ordering it and checking it out. If I were wrong it would be a $10 mistake, since B&H will take it back within 14 days and they're good about that.

[CPALIU]

great! thanks for all the help. I'll probably just pick it up at the local Samy's camera store since they sell everything at the same price as BH, just i get taxed instead of shipping but it works out the same +/- $5 anyways.

[CPALIU]

Just picked up the 3021bpro and the 3437 from Samy's Camera. Love the combo! Thanks for all the help to everyone.

[SYS]

I recently received the 3021B Pro and the 3047 combo. I stumbled across this thread topic AFTER having ordered these. I now can see why some of you do not like the 3047. It's unwieldy and darn heavy!! It's about 8 lbs as a combo without the camera and the lens sitting on top. BUT, apart from these two inconvenient features, I liked everything about it. First, it looks really nice on top of the 3021, yes, it's esthetically pleasing. Second, it's built like it's going to last you a lifetime of usage. You could easily use the combo as your defensive weapon in case someone became too enamored with you camera gears.

So while the downside to the combo is that I won't be lugging these things while hiking miles into the wilderness, it's nevertheless an excellent combo in terms of solid built and looks. Since I don't do much hiking any longer than a mile in, this combo will suit me just fine. If anyone's thinking about using this particular combo for lots of hiking, it'd be worth your while going with a lot lighter (and lot more expensive) combo set.

[Scottes]

Just picked up the 3021bpro and the 3437 from Samy's Camera. Love the combo! Thanks for all the help to everyone.
Excellent! Let us know a little more after a shooting session or two.

[DocFrankenstein]

So while the downside to the combo is that I won't be lugging these things while hiking miles into the wilderness, it's nevertheless an excellent combo in terms of solid built and looks.
You can say THAT again... I barely take my tripod out.

I'm going out to shop for a ballhead... I'm gonna test 486 and 488 RC2 and cut 3 pound off my tripod.

[CPALIU]

For a while i thought about getting a bunch of light weight stuff, but with all the junk in the backpack, i figured another 3-4 lbs wouldn't matter.

[l bo]

Thanks for all the replys.

Well Santa delivered the Bogen 3021 with the 3437 pan head. I appreciate the comments about the adjustment knobs on some of the others and how they can get in the way, the 3437 is perfect.

I have one question though for people who have this pan head. I plan on using it for panaromics, but it "seems" as though it doesn't adjust for the nodal point. Sure I can pan, but the axis point isn't centered or set back slightly from the center. Am I missing something? What's the best position of the center column for panoramics with consideration of this nodal point? Horizontal seems right but unsure, can't wait to play around with it.

[StealthLude]

Thanks for all the replys.

Well Santa delivered the Bogen 3021 with the 3437 pan head. I appreciate the comments about the adjustment knobs on some of the others and how they can get in the way, the 3437 is perfect.

I have one question though for people who have this pan head. I plan on using it for panaromics, but it "seems" as though it doesn't adjust for the nodal point. Sure I can pan, but the axis point isn't centered or set back slightly from the center. Am I missing something? What's the best position of the center column for panoramics with consideration of this nodal point? Horizontal seems right but unsure, can't wait to play around with it.

I am also looking for an answer on that question... so bump...

I dont shoot too much sports / wildlife so im guessing a 3-way pan/tilt is for me... I do pandscape, creative, portrait, and macro work. I would like to shoot sports and wildlife, but im hoping i wont need a new head for that.

Will the pan/tilt work for pano shots or even photostich work. Im looking to take 3-4 frame pano shots with this... Will that work>?

Or do I need some special head to do that.

[Scottes]

A pan-tilt does not allow for placement over the nodal point / entrance pupil, so parallax can easily occur. But if you do not take panos with close objects it will work just fine. If you do plan on taking panos that contain objects close to the lens you will have problems, though, and may want to consider a pano head. The Panosarus and King Pano are two inexpensive pano head (about $100-$150) though you may have to remove the grip from your 20D since they can't handle heavy gear. Either might be good with the grip attached, but I know they'll be OK without it.

[Jonathan19610]

With the 3437 am I correct in assuming that you move the camera, hold the camera in position whilst moving your hand(s) to tighten the knobs to lock the position, where as with the 3030 or the 3047 the camera is moved by the handles and then locked in position with those same handles in one movement. Is this a benefit of the 3 Handle 3 way type of head?

[Scottes]

Is this a benefit of the 3 Handle 3 way type of head?
You can use it as a grappling hook. :-)


Seriously I can't understand why anyone would want such big protruding handles. The compact designs make much more sense to me. I think I'm missing something, too.

[jdkeck]

I still have a 3437 head for sale, http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=129977.

Jeff