Live Entertainment: Pricing for "Flying in for a Concert"

[DwightMcCann]

I have been asked for pricing for "flying in to photograph a concert" and am somewhat bamboozled. I charge $100/hour to shoot over and above usage charges and fees for post processing. But if the concert is only 90 minutes how do I determine a fair price? Can't charge portal-to-portal on the one hand but only charging two hours for actual shooting time for such a trip isn't enough. And while this is for a band, I'd like to have an idea of pricing should I be asked to "fly in" to shoot a boxing match.

[mikegoat]

You charge a minimum- one day for example- plus all travel expenses (plane, car, cab, meal). They should understand that there is set up and tear down time for you just like there is for the band. Are you staying over night or is this a fly in and shoot the concert and fly out deal?

[DwightMcCann]

Mike, I don't know exactly what they are thinking at this point. I do not know where they are based or where their concert is. I did just talk with my friend who is a Nashville promoter and he suggested a "per day" rate also, in the neighborhood of $1000, which could be packaged with some number of images or "all images" burned to CDs with some amount of post processing thrown in for the images they select. I did some research on the net and only found hourly kinds of rates. OTOH, it may be that what I need is a "basic rate" and then have a variety of "offerings" with and without post processing and/or discounted usage fees? Still hoping for someone who has done this. At this point I am only giving it a 10% chance but I'd like to be ready. It was just very unexpected.

[EricKonieczny]

Dwight,

I shot a 3 day music festival back in May and had a very tough time pricing the work.

It was for three days, I was one of 5 photographers, and the images were being used for future publicity, documenting, advertising, etc, But It was also a big Gig for me to get and I recieved some really good exposure from it.

My proposal to them was for $1000 a day, for everything. I know it was low, compared to big Pro prices, but they had four others to work with and pay.

They were still shocked at this price, but any higher I would have not get any work or money.

Good Luck

Nashville is a cool town, and it is not all Country music, check out the OpreyLand Hotel if you can, it is amazing.:shock:

[Joe R]

Commercial day rates or "creative fees" vary from market to market, but are generally in the $1000-1500 range. Editorial day rates are generally in the $300-600 range.

You would charge for expenses on top of this rate, and post-processing if any. In addition you should license the images based on how they will be used. Here's a good place to start with numbers for licensing:
http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

I highly recommend the books "Pricing Photography," and "ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography" for more information on pricing & negotiating.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/fullview/1YN3BKAHL9WXK/103-4781482-6038258?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[René Damkot]

Over here ther used to be 'standard prices' advised by the Dutch Federation of Photographers. They used a day price, or a price based on usage, more like stock agencies do: If a picture is used for a CD booklet, it will be more expensive if it's on the cover for example. Price also depends on the numbers printed. The customor pays for the use of the picture, not the taking so to speak. Might be an idea?
Other than that, I think Joe R has it pretty much covered....

[robertwgross]

When I am asked to travel more than my usual distance to do a shoot, I generally charge them time and expenses for the travel. Time is generally a low rate, like 1/3 or 1/2 of normal (since it is not really work).

---Bob Gross---

[gmen]

This might help to decide an overall day rate based on your cost of doing business: http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/

Add to this, usage fees: http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

Plus expenses...

Good luck if it comes off Dwight.

---- Gavin

[IndyJeff]

Dwight you have to figure the time involved in that 90 minute concert. I am sure you will be there at least 1 hour before show time so, we are looking at 2.5 hours minimum.
Now your in California, figure you will fly to Chicago or Atlanta, change planes and then on to Nashville. What 6-7 hours flying? Plus down time in the airport, so your travel will involve basically 2 days. Of course this is assuming that the concert will be in Nashville.
On the expense side, if you book the flight within 7 days of flying figure you will be paying a premium charge for that flight.

My thinking would be the $1000 fee for covering the concert, and flight time now that puts you down to a day rate of $333 and some change. Add in the cost of the flight, rental car, hotel for 1 night and you could very well be looking at an additional $1500-$2000 in travel expense.

Add in cost of post processing, licensing (which I am sure they will be wanting a buyout) and I think you might be looking at $3000, maybe a little more in billable items.

Good luck figuring it out.

[RockSlut]

Hi Dwight, I agree with IndyJeff and others about the pricing philosophy. I hope that the band has the budget to pay you a reasonable rate for your work.

I would not be able to comment on the figures however as I don't shoot in America.

[DwightMcCann]

Wow, this is great! As soon as I realized that it was not going to be cut & dried and some negotiation would be needed I relaxed a bit. Then reading all the above, checking Gavin's link, thinking some more, I feel much more comfortable with discussing the issue if it actually comes up. The idea of 1/3 day rate for traveling is really helpful. And it does seem, as Eric noted, that $1000 is the very bottom (where I am willing to start) and if they don't go for that then they probably aren't serious.

BTW, the band in question is Brule (I was not sworn to secrecy), what I would call a New Age American Indian influenced band that seems to include four musicians (father [keyboard/vocals], son [guitar], daughter [flute] and "Eagle" [drummer]) and four Native American Dancers who appear quite good and their music leans toward spiritual. I expect to put images on my website within a week or so. I do not believe they are out of Nashville. It is my friend, Rick Barker, who is a VP with Rust Records and has his own production/management business that I spoke with ... and came to realize that there wasn't really a magic industry standard. This is the same guy who got me my agreement with the Chumash Casino Resort just because he thought it would be a good idea. As for the band/dancers, they do provide marvelous visual/photographic opportunities, the manager seemed very nice and professional, and I would certainly enjoy working with them.

I will keep everyone apprised of whatever happens and I don't have a problem revealing the details of the deal should it come about ... as I said above I am only giving it about 10% likelihood.

Mike, I shot some 85mm f1.2L images of this group but because of positional restrictions due to guests I doubt that they will show off the lens ... when I find them I'll make sure you see 'em. :-)

[MetalTom]

I wish I could be of more help, but I've never had an opportunity like this so I've never given it much thought. The previous postings seem appropriate.

[DwightMcCann]

I advised the band that I wanted $1000/day, 1/3 that for travel days, expenses and usage fees and that less would not work for me. It sure is grand that I don't have to make my living this way as I am not much of an entrepreneur and if I needed the work to survive it would be very hard on me. I also let them know that I have been advised that the courtesy images of them I sent to the local paper were so well liked that they will be used, even though a week later, in the Friday section devoted to the valley ... they are the same images that I sent smaller versions of to the band as an example of what I had captured at their performance. I'm also letting them use website images for free since that has been my policy for bands when the casino has paid for my time. So, a CD of 185 "out of camera" images has been FedEx'd and should arrive in Arizona on Monday ... I expect to hear back in about a week from then but I am very happy that I now have pricing in hand for this sort of request. I thank you all once again.

[PhotosGuy]

I'm also letting them use website images for free since that has been my policy for bands when the casino has paid for my time. So, a CD of 185 "out of camera" images has been FedEx'd "out of camera" is about 720X480, right?

[DwightMcCann]

Frank, Uhoh! Did I make a mistake? The manager said they were in a very tight time bind, that they wanted all the images in maximum resolution (after I culled them), that they had the expertise post process them. So, no, I sent the real deal, but we did discuss that they would have to pay to license for any print use. I felt pressured and perhaps did not exercise the best judgement. I guess this experience is going to be the pirce of knowing just how to handle the process. So, you would advise ... what?

As I read back over this I can see a real need for laying out a step-by-step set of rules for Entertainment Photography so we don't keep running into this kind of balancing act trying to please the potential clients without giving away the farm. Personally I need to be in a place where when asked for something I am ready to reply with a set of standards and can work from there.

[EricKonieczny]

As I read back over this I can see a real need for laying out a step-by-step set of rules for Entertainment Photography so we don't keep running into this kind of balancing act trying to please the potential clients without giving away the farm. Personally I need to be in a place where when asked for something I am ready to reply with a set of standards and can work from there.


Good Luck with this Dwight, I have talked to my frind who I am working on the other big project with and have come up with a proposal document and a seperate contract form. But every client I have talked to or have used them with, he admits this also, has their owns questions and set of ideas on photography, pricing, owning or images, etc.

I spent 30 minutesin a meeting yesterday trying to talk through copyright and pricing of images, they even had my wrriten propsal sitting in front of them. They kept saying, well we are paying for the photography but we do not own the images? They then showed me old slides from about 7 years ago when they had a bunch of work done, and said, the other photographer just gave us all the slides when they were completed, :eek:

I then told them, yes I can sell you full usage rights to the images without time restrictions or usage, but the price will be signifcantly higher, and I will still own the copyright.

There is an endless amount of questions and situations, but having a proposal document, and then contract is a good start.


Good Luck

[PhotosGuy]

So, no, I sent the real deal, but we did discuss that they would have to pay to license for any print use... So, you would advise ... what? It's just that it's easier to keep track & control if they only have the hi-res images that they paid for. Someone can always pick up the CD at a later date & try to use your work for free.

RSE will output small "Proof" images that you can Zip together, & considering the speed of the inet these days, how long does it really take to email them the few final images they buy?
A "a very tight time bind?" They'd be able to see images right away & already have the printable files well before Monday when FEdEx arrives, too.
Just the way I'd prefer to handle it & that's the way I'd try to sell the idea to them.

Be sure to look through the links that Gavin gave you. LOTs of good info in there!

[DwightMcCann]

Thanks, Frank ... as soon as I replied I realized that it is all about CONTROL. I will be much better prepared next time and your specific suggestions are well considered.

Eric, Yes, I can understand that ... I expect that given this experience (which really hasn't happened) that I will establish a baseline from which to work. But I think I will simply say, "This is the professional industry standard regardless of whatever deals you have done before" and if they can't deal with that then "You can always go back to the guy you used before." I think my work is so good that it sets itself apart and if they want a second rate product that is their decision. Again, I recognize that I am very fortunate not to rely on this income in any way ... it all just goes back into equipment and supplies ... I can pick and chose what I want to do.

[IndyJeff]

But I think I will simply say, "This is the professional industry standard regardless of whatever deals you have done before" and if they can't deal with that then "You can always go back to the guy you used before.

Dwight, and anybody else who comes across this line from a potential client, they have come to you for a reason. Could it be the other guy is no longer available or maybe he isn't in the business anymore. Maybe he found out how he was so under pricing his work he was going broke and upped his pricing to more "industry standard pricing". They figure they will go fishing again and see if they can find someone who will work that cheap again, happens all the time, and they will find someone.

The way I have dealt with this when it has been launched at me is to begin to gather up my materials, if it is a face to face meeting, and thank them for their time and consideration. "I am sure you can contact the guy who you used before and with whom's pricing you are comfortable with but, my prices are based upon my cost of doing business and my need for a reasonable profit for my wages. I would love to do this job but, obviously I am not within your budget and your offer is one that I can not work with. I know there are a lot of photographers out there who may be able to do the job and give you the results you want for that kind of pricing. Myself, I can't. What I can do is deliver a product that will meet or exceed your expectations. No need to do a reshoot, or look for another photographer on a last minutes notice. Gentlemen, I do thank you and if you should ever need a photographer again, please feel free to contact me for a quote."

An approach like this has happened to me on 3 different occasions. I knew they wanted me because I could do the job and they liked what they had seen in my portfolio. On 2 out of the 3 occasions, I was asked to sit back down. I did and they tried both times to get me to come down in price. I held fast to my guns and didn't budge. Finally on one time I agreed to a 15% discount if, and only if, I was paid upon completion of the project. Not one day later, one week later, or anyother time period. Paid when I deleivered, then and there.
The other finally agreed to my pricing after I explained that they could get someone else and hope that they spent 1/3 of the money I was asking for and got as good as results. Now if the spent that money and what they received wasn't up to par, well then they would have wasted that money. One comeback to that was "we wouldn't pay until we saw what we were getting and were happy." Fine then you have wasted valuable time in messing around with the actual shoot, processing and then your going to have to argue with a guy who wants paid and you don't want to pay.
They eventually did for my price and paid me upon delivery.

The third time, I got up, shook their hands and walked out. They got another guy to do the work and it was adequete. That was it, not great but it would do. I even heard from one of the guys at that meeting who said what they paid for was worth 66% less, they got what they paid for.

If you feel your going to be negotiating price, jack it up maybe 25% more than what you actually want. That way when they negotiate you down, you give them 25% off, they feel like they got the better end of the deal but, you got what you wanted. Best part is, if they accpet your price right off, you have made a bonus on this job.

[DwightMcCann]

Jeff, Wow, and you give this advice FREE? Thank you. However, let me put you to the question: what would your actual price be, per day, for an out of area shoot? If it would include processing, expenses or licensing, how much?

[IndyJeff]

Jeff, Wow, and you give this advice FREE? Thank you. However, let me put you to the question: what would your actual price be, per day, for an out of area shoot? If it would include processing, expenses or licensing, how much?


As damn much as I could get!!!!



Ok thats not what you wanted to hear so, the nuts and bolts of how I would figure the price.

First I would have to check and see how much a round trip ticket is. Add 10%. Then figure on how much time I would spend getting to and fro. Figure $300 per day travel time. SIDENOTE: If I am not traveling how much could I be making at home? Why should I travel and make nothing or very little when I could stay home and make as much if not more. END OF SIDENOTE:
Out of that $300 I would buy my own meals, drinks, refreshments, magazines etc.
Next how much time would I spend on the location. You have scouting time, set up, actual shooting, breakdown, post processing and uploading/saving to cd. Add all that up and figure a day rate, or half day. ($800 /$450 - 8 hours/more than 2 but less than 4.5)
Now you will probably have to stay somewhere and you will need a car to get back and forth from the airport, or take a cab if the venue is close to your hotel. So you have a hotel expense, plus transportation to add in. Once again add 10%. When you call to book a room, try calling directly to the hotel you will be staying at. Ask about charges by taxi from the airport.


So now lets see, I have ........
1. Half day rate.................$450
2. Hotel for 2 nights...........$190 @ $95 per night
3. Cabfare to & fro.............$65 (I called and from the airport rates are about $25 each way, plus tip.)
4. Travel time expense.......$600

Total job cost........$1305 plus flight cost. That is what it will cost to get me there, get a good nights sleep before the shoot, to do the shoot, a good nights sleep after the shoot and back home again the next day.

Now licensing fees would be contingent upon what they will be used for and that is too broad a subject to breach here. However, I would figure the cost as if I did this shoot without the travel and related expense and give 10-25% discount on that rate. Noting in my quote the regular price and discounted pricing.
Also I would require at least a $1000 downpayment before I even booked the flight. Also mention that if they want to book the flight and pay for it directly, you will pick up the transportation fees (cab fare). This will save you form spending money and having that hanging around in the background. So you spend $60 on a cab, your not having to charge $$$ for the flight. Still I would require the downpayment.

Hope that helps

[DwightMcCann]

So, you are not very expensive! Perhaps I will subcontract the job to you and just pocket the difference as profit for a finder's fee. Seriously, yes, that helps a lot because it demonstrates that my estimate was reasonable as well as the things I should consider when calculating expenses ... but more than that, the idea of giving discounts on licensing as part of a bigger package has a lot appeal and I never thought about it ... a nice sweetener if a deal looks impending.

[IndyJeff]

Yeah if your getting paid wages to do the shoot, it is kind of cut-throat to expect top fees for licensing, at least in my opinion. Now if your shooting and they aren't paying a day rate, expenses or anything else, you demand top dollar for the licensing.
The way I look at it in a situation such as the one you have proposed here, they are paying a lot of money just to get you there so, a break on licensing is in order. You have to look at it from their side as well, which I always try to do. I want to provide a product that is priced so as to give them good value for their dollar, make me enough that I can call it profitable and everyone is happy.
Getting greedy by trying to get top dollar on day rates, expenses, and licensing fees can leave you standing at the alter like the provebial jilted bride, so to speak.

As far as discounting the licensing fee, that would depend on how many images they used and the actual fee. The higher the number of images, the higher the dollar amount, the larger the discount but, never more than 25%.

I quoted a half day rate, just as an example. If it were me I might quote the full day rate explaining that while I was there that would be considered as down time where I couldn't make money. They will most likely object to paying you for the whole day so you offer the half day rate. This is your negotiating tactics, price higher than you actually want and come down to let them feel like they got the better end of the negoiations.

[IndyJeff]

So, you are not very expensive!

LOL Well the cost of living isn't as high here in Indy as it is in California.

[PhotosGuy]

Good posts, Jeff!
Dwight, FYI I used to charge a day rate that included 10 hours my door to their door back to my door & I threw in 50 free miles, just so I wouldn't have to calculate the small stuff. Half-day rate was 5 hours DTD. Travel time was half the day rate, but they paid the expenses that Jeff includes in his $300.

Consider an "Expendables" category for small stuff like tape, paint, lighting gells, lamps, cleaning equipment, 30X40" cardboard used as reflectors, etc. $25 usually does it over the long run for in the area shoots. If I have to buy it on location rather than ship it, they pay the full cost 'cause I won't be shipping it back. I just leave it with the AD if there is one.

"Also I would require at least a $1000 downpayment before I even booked the flight." Wish I could have got that from GM! Once got the check directly from the GM client in 5 days. Identical job for him a week later took 5 months since his boss made him put it through the accounting dept.

[IndyJeff]

By paying for your own meals you can throw that in as a selling point. If you decide you want a good steak dinner and the bill is about $80, the client may have some objections to paying for an "extravagant meal".
Another way of doing meals and having them pay for it is a per diem, say $40 per day. You should be able to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner for $40 while on the road.

[DwightMcCann]

Each post here is a gem in itself ... particularly now that we are throwing in real numbers so folks can get a sense of what we're talking about. And, yes, Cost-of-Living is a big factor. I just moved into a new home which would be $250-300K in INDY but it cost us $870K (my wife and I both have good jobs and are older.) There is simply no way to ignore that and price the same as if I lived in Mississippi. Also, the comment that 25% is the top discount is interesting, although I might want to discuss absolute dollar amounts.

[IndyJeff]

Let's look at that 25% discount with some real numbers. Say the licensing fee was $3000. If you applied the 25% discount that would be $750. The client regains all of your travel pay, plus about 1/3 of your halfday rate. That is a selling point.
If this were a deal where you were there on your own and licensed the same image at $3000 then you would have all of the expenses coming out of it so, in the long run your coming out ahead by giving the discount. Your travel expenses are paid, you get paid for your travel time and hotel room. By the time you deduct all of those expenses, you are way below the money with the 25% discount. Plus the fact that no matter what, you have been paid for the travel, shooting and all hotel and airfare expenses. Most importantly, you won't LOSE any money.

Man I don't know how anyone can afford to live on the left coast. Your absolutley right, if your house cost $870 there, it might be $200-250,000 here.

[IndyJeff]

Wish I could have got that from GM! Once got the check directly from the GM client in 5 days. Identical job for him a week later took 5 months since his boss made him put it through the accounting dept.

Check out this thread from SS a while back. Interesting concept and if more guys start doing it, it may become the norm. Of course the quicker the deadline is to the time the job is contracted, the easier it would be to get paid like this.

get paid (http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=17974)

[PhotosGuy]

That's a great discussion! Thanks for the link. I give clients my bank routing number that is connected to my checking account. Along with that I email the invoice before I leave on the job. I then instruct them to wire the money into my account. I can't say that I'm thrilled with that solution, but I think this one is a great idea! "Administrative Fee - We are now building into the invoice the cost to repeatedly follow up with accounts payable departments on past due invoices, and float the cost of payment to our vendors, which require 30 days payment. This fee is approximately 10% of the total invoice. If payment is made within 30 days, you may deduct this amount. A notation to this effect will be made on the invoice." live on the left coast. :D :D Good one!

[DwightMcCann]

Jeff, wonderful link ... while my current three clients are long term, two paying by month/quarter and one paying per event, billed monthly, and all pay promptly, I can already see why you started in on me for giving up so much control so quickly. They could use my images as they see fit, tell me whatever they want about that use (or not), and I have essentially no leverage. Even if they intend to pay me, I will probably be the last on their list and it could be months. I am very fortunate to be able to subsidize and/or finance myself from my and my wife's day jobs but can see where getting paid from three or four outstanding gigs with high out of pocket expenses to be recovered could well even stretch that .... without a very high limit credit card and willingness to pay the interest on unpaid balance, it could prevent my ability to take on work in which I had to front fees.

So, Jeff, what would you suggest for event photographers ... can we get some money 'up front', prior to flying out? Is there a way to charge 'late fees' after a month since I am either paying interest on my credit card or I am financing myself and should be paid for the time they are tying up my money?

As for living out here ... well, it is actually a big problem ... cities, counties and colleges are starting to have to look for ways to help their new help get started ... low cost or interest free loans, building housing to be rented or sold at a subsidized amount, moving in bonuses. And pay isn't that great ... the University of California (for whom I work) has just announced a study that indicates that staff pay (not executives or faculty, of course) is 15% below the market. I just received my first raise in four years ... 3% ... while during this same period my work related health insurance, parking fees, and a few other things have gone up significantly more than that raise covers, on top of the general cost of living. I have worked for less each year for about the past ten years. Fortunately my wife, who has an MBA and works in defense, has finally had her pay adjusted so that she makes more than the men who work for her with much less education and responsibility ... she made less for at least the ten years I have lived with her ... so we are able to cope. And you know our PADD 5 gasoline has always been about 10-20% more than the rest of the country. And being 60 with a 3-1/2 year old daughter doesn't make financial futures look any too bright, either!

[IndyJeff]

Jeff, wonderful link ... while my current three clients are long term, two paying by month/quarter and one paying per event, billed monthly, and all pay promptly, I can already see why you started in on me for giving up so much control so quickly. They could use my images as they see fit, tell me whatever they want about that use (or not), and I have essentially no leverage. Even if they intend to pay me, I will probably be the last on their list and it could be months. I am very fortunate to be able to subsidize and/or finance myself from my and my wife's day jobs but can see where getting paid from three or four outstanding gigs with high out of pocket expenses to be recovered could well even stretch that .... without a very high limit credit card and willingness to pay the interest on unpaid balance, it could prevent my ability to take on work in which I had to front fees.

Right now in my business AR I am owed a little under $2500 and that is just from the month of October!!!! Of that close to $2000 is from companies which I have to submit invoices and wait to be paid. No way around it their account depts aren't located here. Others, who are local know that if they want my services, a check is ready and waiting on me when I am done, otherwise, I ain't doing it and to quote Slim Pickens in 1941 "You ain't getting diddly squat outta me".

So, Jeff, what would you suggest for event photographers ... can we get some money 'up front', prior to flying out? Is there a way to charge 'late fees' after a month since I am either paying interest on my credit card or I am financing myself and should be paid for the time they are tying up my money?

Well what your talking about doing here I wouldn't consider as "event photography". More like contract work, maybe even assignment. Event photography would be more along the lines of a youth soccer tourney, football games, baseball etc etc. You see where I am going with this. In event photography your pretty much shooting on spec. You do the work and hope the pay off from sales is enough to make some money. Event photography is more like a feast or famine line of photography. Very rarely does an event photographer get any kind of pay, there are nuts in that field which pay kickbacks off sales back to the organization. Personally I don't pay kickbacks. I walk as soon as they ask for money back. If your "donating back" then you have to raise your prices to compensate. Higher pricing results in less sales which means less money for you.
In a case like your example here, flying in to cover a concert, I wouldn't even consider it unless I had money upfront. I would request flight, hotel and travel pay to be paid BEFORE I booked the flight or room. What if you go and the band doesn't show? Do you think you will be reimbursed for your expenses incurred? Probably not and it isn't your fault the band didn't show. Heck it could even be something so screwy as a storm which knocked out power and the concert had to be rescheduled two months down the road. Get your out of pocket expense, and travel pay upfront.



If you have a client that says "I will pay you in 30 days" and 30 days later you know you go to the mailbox and a check will be there then that is a good client. Keep them happy and work for them as much as you can.
One thing you want to watch out for is a company that files bankruptcy. I had a large national hardware store filed on me about two weeks after I billed them for $1200 worth of work. I got $210, and that sucked with a passion.

[DwightMcCann]

OK, and that all goes back to your essential lesson, "Keep some form of control." I won't be going anywhere on my nickel! One more gem. I expect the money I spent when I ordered a couple of books on this subject this weekend will be a waste. :-)

[IndyJeff]

OK, and that all goes back to your essential lesson, "Keep some form of control." I won't be going anywhere on my nickel! One more gem. I expect the money I spent when I ordered a couple of books on this subject this weekend will be a waste. :-)

Bwhahahahaha No that money will be well spent. The authors wrote those books for a reason, they know what they are talking about and have experience.
In pricing there is not really any definative, cure all, absolute right answer. You could talk to me, Peter Read Miller from SI, and Thomas Witte freelance photographer about pricing a job.We would all come up with different answers I am sure. The trick is to find the right answer the clent will agree to. Of course if you had access to those guys you would be nuts to even ask me LOL.

[DwightMcCann]

I wanted to get back here to follow up several months later. First, I have had no more requests to shoot "out of town". I don't have time so I don't even go there. Second, I have decided on a sliding rate of $1000 to $3500 per day based on 10-16 hour days and possibly an assistant. I have this rate posted on my website with mention that I may not be available. :-) I also have a bit more experience and realize that most of the time such an arrangement would go through the label or management company rather than one of the band members ... D'oh! So, I am slowly expanding my portfolio, my business branding (embroidered polo shirts, printed CDs, business cards) and my relationship with select managers (ones who I know like my work), so that when I am ready there will be some chance greater than zero that I will get some work. There is great piece of mind knowing that I don't need the work ... yet!:cool:

[Jacobredphoto]

Here are some of my questions. You guys all sound very professional and intelligent so here it goes.
Okay all, I need some tips. I have been doing photography for a few years now but I have never shot for money other than people I know (I'm 15). There is a Christian/Rock group that I would like to shoot for. Doesn't look or sound like they have a photographer to shoot exclusively for live performances.
I am wondering what I should charge, I don't want to charge a super amount as I am sure they don't make a lot of revenue and I don't want to walk in there like I own the place.
Can ANYONE give me a sample of the image licensing or agreement that you do for a small band and how much you charge? I would just like to see how it is worded. This band is signed with an indie label.
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I don't have the kick butt gear that you guys have nor the amount of experience so I know I can't charge that much.

[blackshadow]

Here are some of my questions. You guys all sound very professional and intelligent so here it goes.
Okay all, I need some tips. I have been doing photography for a few years now but I have never shot for money other than people I know (I'm 15). There is a Christian/Rock group that I would like to shoot for. Doesn't look or sound like they have a photographer to shoot exclusively for live performances.
I am wondering what I should charge, I don't want to charge a super amount as I am sure they don't make a lot of revenue and I don't want to walk in there like I own the place.
Can ANYONE give me a sample of the image licensing or agreement that you do for a small band and how much you charge? I would just like to see how it is worded. This band is signed with an indie label.
--------------------
I don't have the kick butt gear that you guys have nor the amount of experience so I know I can't charge that much.

First thing is do they want you to shoot them and if they do do they want to pay you to do it? Unless the answer to both questions is yes there is no point worrying about anything else.

[Jacobredphoto]

Thanks! I actually have not asked yet. I thought it would be best to figure everything else out so that I am collective if they actually decide to hire me. I don't THINK they have anyone to shoot live events, they have one super bad quality on their profile of one of them singing so I think they would be welcome to the idea of having someone to shoot for them, if they are willing to pay is another thing. I wouldn't mind doing it for really cheap as they are local and I am doing it mostly for experience at this point. The same time, I don't want to undersell myself or any-other working photographer in the process. I will shoot them an e-mail and see if I get anything back and then will give you all an update!

[mr2step]

Frank, Uhoh! Did I make a mistake? The manager said they were in a very tight time bind, that they wanted all the images in maximum resolution (after I culled them), that they had the expertise post process them. So, no, I sent the real deal, but we did discuss that they would have to pay to license for any print use. I felt pressured and perhaps did not exercise the best judgement. I guess this experience is going to be the pirce of knowing just how to handle the process. So, you would advise ... what?

As I read back over this I can see a real need for laying out a step-by-step set of rules for Entertainment Photography so we don't keep running into this kind of balancing act trying to please the potential clients without giving away the farm. Personally I need to be in a place where when asked for something I am ready to reply with a set of standards and can work from there.

I was just wanting to know how you know when someone/band uses your images for anything? I mean,if they were surely they could just print or put out on web without your knowing about it. Just curious is all.

[DwightMcCann]

I was just wanting to know how you know when someone/band uses your images for anything? I mean,if they were surely they could just print or put out on web without your knowing about it. Just curious is all.
They have to tell you or you have to discover it or one of your friends has to see and let you know! There is no magic and there will always be people for whom their self interest trumps all things else. You can do some things to help give them a clue that they should contact you suchas putting IPTC data in the images, putting your website/email on the images and a copyright notice and a note on the webpages where the images exist. You can then help them further by registering your copyright with the Library of Congress so that if you find them they will owe you big statutory damages and never feel sorry for them or back away from a sizable demand. But the truth is that most of us don't do all that because we aren't full-time professional photographers and it is just too much trouble. Oh, and there are also services that purport to "finger print" your images so they easily detectable on the net.

[mr2step]

That makes sense. Is there a program that puts the IPTC data into the image file, or is it done automatically, kind of like EXIF data?I read recently (on this board i think) that Google has some kind of alert system that will alert you if your IPTC data is used or something like that.

[DwightMcCann]

There are a number of programs that will put IPTC data into images for you. Adobe Lightroom for sure. I expect ACR. I use PhotoMechanic for that and a few other things. I think Breezebrowser is another one. But IPTC data is good for MUCH more than just copyright ... it is a standardized format that includes location, ownership and content identification among other things. Pulling up almost any image I have put on the net in the last three years will allow you to find me.

[René Damkot]

I expect ACR

No, but Bridge and PS will ;)

I use ImageIngester (at time of copying cards to HDD, using xmp) and iView Media Pro / Expression media (will allow writing of IPTC into the CR2 file itself!)

[DwightMcCann]

Thanks, Rene ... I don't use ACR or Bridge so I was confused.

Also, I meant to mention Google Alerts: if you go to alerts.google.com you set up email alerts whenever Google finds your keywords ... it's FREE and powerful.

[René Damkot]

it's FREE and powerful.

And tends to come up with rather a lot of POTN threads in my case :lol:

[DwightMcCann]

And tends to come up with rather a lot of POTN threads in my case :lol:
But only the first time it finds each thread!

[PhotosGuy]

The TinEye browser plugin is the fastest way to search for web images right from your Firefox or IE browser.
http://tineye.com/plugin

[DDCSD]

The TinEye browser plugin is the fastest way to search for web images right from your Firefox or IE browser.
http://tineye.com/plugin

Maybe its better now, but I've never found a single image using that. Even ones that I know are in multiple places.

[René Damkot]

True.
TinEye becomes useful when they start indexing stuff like Myspace.
I know I'd get a lot of hits then...

[DwightMcCann]

True.
TinEye becomes useful when they start indexing stuff like Myspace.
I know I'd get a lot of hits then...
Ah, then totally useless, sigh.

[PhotosGuy]

Ah, then totally useless, sigh. Not totally. It did attribute an image someone posted to Time mag last week.