Outdoor Sports Portrait lens help

[MJPhotos24]

hey,
I do a lot of portrait shots outdoors but always have trouble with filling the cap shadow on harsh sunny days. With film I never had the problem (the card below was with film)...that photo was done w/ 400 Speed film, at 1/350 and don't really remember anything else except it was with a standard 5.6 lens...420EX speedlight flash.

Any recommendations for a good posed photo lens and how it does with fill flash for cap shadow if anyone has experienced it?


http://www.knockoverrecords.com/mikejanesphotography/images/cards/Stars-03-grigsby.jpg

For the attached digital photo from a 10D the settings were....F-stop: 13...1/180...ISO 400....24mm....Sigma 24-70 2.8....420EX speedlight flash.

Any lens suggestions or setting suggestions to minimizing the cap shadow? I am upgrading from the 10D to a Mark II n but still probably going to use the 10D as my portrait lens.

Thanks!

[grego]

Well, if you are really going for a setup, you might want to use a reflector, if you are shooting against the sun, you can fill in his face that way. Basically get an angle that has the light hit his face, and the reflector would be your best bet for that.

[Phil V]

The difference between the 2 posted photo's is the amount of fill flash - experiment to taste (it's digital and free). The fill flash on the second is virtually non-existant.

Personally for shots like that I'd go for a larger aperture/longer lens to throw the background more out of focus. You could also come out of the sun into better light and forego the flash (not very American tho).

[MJPhotos24]

Hey,
Thanks for the replies. The biggest problem is I don't have time or a place to "set up" anything or get them out of the sun. I grab these guys coming out of the locker room for stretch and have to do it quick as possible usually. I've seen some shots done w/ a reflector and players absolutely hate them. The quote I heard last year was "it made me look like a gremlin" because he squinted so bad as it was pointed right in his eyes. Most the photos in the card set using reflectors was like that to, not sure if the people doing them didnt know what they were donig or what.

Next harsh sunny day though I'll be grabbing someone and experimenting a lot. Might be hard to come by in this buffalo winter though, feels like I havent seen sun in a week! ha.

[Jon]

Crank up the FEC a touch. Maybe +2/3?

[jimlp]

I guess I am the only one who thinks the second one looks much more natural, in an outside phot you expect shadows in sunny situations. You have plenty of detail in the shadows and no blown highlights on the subject, the first pic looks completely unnatural to me.

[MJPhotos24]

I've gone +2/3 b4 and it helps the face but sometimes makes the rest look to light. That's how I do it right now though...I do around 3 photos at different settings that way.

The companies I work for want face, not shadows so no matter how natural it looks they dont care, which sucks at times. For cards that are in color even they do something in photoshop to lighten the shadow.

hopefully we'll get some sun soon to test things out.

[rklepper]

Try rotating the subject.

[MJPhotos24]

rotating the subject? Not sure what you mean, I shoot the guys w/ sun on one side of their face and then try to use the fill flash for the other side.

Also does anyone have an opinion on the 85mm 1.8 for portraits like this? I went through a LOT of my close ups and most were ranged from 24-32. 85 seems like I would be farther away and this would not help with the fill flash. Or, am I just screwing up the settings and it's not "catching" the flash like film does.

[Michael L]

A shadow line that harsh should have been obvious before you even put the viewfinder to your eye. I think you would have hard time finding any camera/flash setting that would fix a line that harsh without blowing the highlights.

Recommend positioning the subject so the natural light does not make a line like that in the first place. If the sun is high in the sky, and they are wearing a hat it will not be easy.

[MJPhotos24]

the line was obvious as I stated earlier...that's what Ive always done, sun on one side, fill flash for the other. With film this is never a problem w/ digital it is. I chose the two photos because they were taken in similar situations, sun in the same area basically, just one w/ film - one w/ the 10D.

[fslshooter]

MJPhotos24 - I too need help with the same problem and not seeing the solution here yet and it being a super bright sunny day today, I tried a few experiments. I set up my little player model, a teddy bear with a baseball cap on, in a position similar to how I'd be shooting a player. I found that the solution to the problem lies more with the proper use of fill flash than what lens I used so lens choice would be whatever you like best. As for fill flash I found that I had to use a slave in addition to the unit in the hotshoe. Placement of the slave proved to be critical as I needed to get it close enough to the subject to cast light but far enough away to be out of the frame. I also needed to position it so that the subject's nose shadow that it cast didn't cause a problem. For an actual shoot, I will use an assistant to hold the slave. Here's my best result along with a shot without flash to to give you an idea of the best position I found for the slave flash unit and to show you how harsh the shadow from the sun was.



http://www.ourcubs.com//potn/051125_105422_1.jpg

http://www.ourcubs.com//potn/051125_105447_1.jpg

[ayotnoms]

Jerry: shouldn't he be wearing a Cubs hat? :)

Good explanation of what I think is the best solution.

Just wondering: when did baseball players become so persnickety about the gear a photographer employed?

Cheers

[fslshooter]

Hey Steve -- how you been?
shouldn't he be wearing a Cubs hat?
Actually it is a Cubs hat -- Daytona Cubs. They're the Chicago Cubs minor league affiliate here that I shoot for.
Just wondering: when did baseball players become so persnickety about the gear a photographer employed?
I think baseball players might be among the most persnickety athletes in sports. It's not so much the gear that photogs employ but how much it might interfere with their game face and how much of a bother it might be to them. In order to shoot portraits, I have to do it in the window that comes after they change from their warm up uniform to their game uni when they're headed to the dugout. They're in their game mind set at this time and don't want to be bothered by me or anyone else. Most refuse to even remove their sunglasses on bright days which makes me wonder why I should be all that concerned about the shadow across their eyes :rolleyes: .

[rklepper]

rotating the subject? Not sure what you mean, I shoot the guys w/ sun on one side of their face and then try to use the fill flash for the other side.

Also does anyone have an opinion on the 85mm 1.8 for portraits like this? I went through a LOT of my close ups and most were ranged from 24-32. 85 seems like I would be farther away and this would not help with the fill flash. Or, am I just screwing up the settings and it's not "catching" the flash like film does.

I just mean that I think the positioning of the subject should be the first consideration. Rotate the subject.

[MJPhotos24]

Thanks for the responses...I was thinking of the slave but dont have time or $$ to have an assistant. I shoot about 20 players (at least) a day, sometimes close to 40-50 depending on if I set it up w/ the coaches and each player takes about 30 seconds. I do this pretty much every day for 7 months straight all over the country so an assistant would be hard to come by for that long. Next sunny day I'm grabby my garfield throwin a hat on it and testin many things!! :)

As for players, well I think it really is dependent on who you're shooting for and how much of their time you're taking up depending on when you grab them. If they are going to stretch (like mine usually are) then they want it over quick to get ready and are already in "game mode". Last year I told players as early as possible I needed the photos done so they'd come out early, also coaches helped and would yell at everyone to get the pic done (since they are for USA Today, Baseball America, At the Yard and a few card companies I dont have a problem usually). My only problem usually is the light and background.

As for not taking the glasses off, again I think that depends on what its for...I've only had one guy say he wouldnt and really I just didnt care so didnt ask him to again, most guys will comply with what you want though (the one posted above I didnt even notice the glasses on his hat, I was burnt out). On another note, I know 4-5 guys who wear perscription sunglasses, and if you get them on a sunny day they wont take 'em off for most people. I've had other photogs get pi$$ed at me cuz the player would for me but noone else. The flash also really messes with their eyes a lot more than most people and when the glasses are off their eyes are half shut.

[MJPhotos24]

I just mean that I think the positioning of the subject should be the first consideration. Rotate the subject.

ohh, i think i over thought that :)

Yes, there wasnt much of a choice...to the right, fans...to the left players stretching....behind, fans gettin autographs...so only direction was really that way...i usually put the sun on one side and use the fill for the cap shadow, but just dont fill as good as film for some reason

[MJPhotos24]

Actually it is a Cubs hat -- Daytona Cubs. They're the Chicago Cubs minor league affiliate here that I shoot for.

not jerry hale r ya?? and do u have pics of Gwaltney? he was there a bit I believe, I'm good friends w/ him and his mom and she LOVES photos.

[fslshooter]

I was thinking of the slave but dont have time or $$ to have an assistant.

I honestly don't think you're going to get the results you want without someone helping you by holding the slave flash unit where you want it to be. As for an assistant, I suggest you ask an intern, batboy, someone on the grounds crew, a player who's not in the starting lineup or perhaps ask the manager or GM if they know of someone who could help you. If I've learned nothing else about minor league baseball, it's that no one makes any real money at that level -- the only exception being players who got signing bonuses. I bet you could hire an assistant on the spot for no longer than you'll need them for a beer or a couple of bucks.

[fslshooter]

not jerry hale r ya?? and do u have pics of Gwaltney? he was there a bit I believe, I'm good friends w/ him and his mom and she LOVES photos.

Yup -- that's me. Lee's mom has every good pic I have of him ;) . Have you and I met on a field somewhere?

[MJPhotos24]

Yup -- that's me. Lee's mom has every good pic I have of him ;) . Have you and I met on a field somewhere?

Thats good, when he first got there we had no clue who shoots in FL really so she asked me to keep an eye open, but that was awhile ago.

No, we never met (that I remember) but when I saw Jerry and FL I kind of just assumed because I've seen your name before in BA and noticed all the stuff was shot down that way. I didnt have the $$$ to hit the FSL/GCL this year but hopefully next year. I was there for Spring Training though for 12 days.

Usually all those people you mentioned are doing other things and I dont like to bug them to much. Maybe at the lower levels have a fan do it but probably just suffer with the shadow. Weird how digital just cant seem to do it but film no problems at all. Ah well...figure it out some day.

One thing I noticed over the summer was that when I said "baseball america" as my credential players attitudes sometimes changed cuz so many photogs say they are from BA, they kind of get bombarded with requests and you get the "didnt I already take a photo for them?" attitude. I use USA Today mostly now becuase of this...then just explain it also goes to all the others and stuff like that. Of course me and another BA photog shoot at the same places all the time so maybe thats why I get that a lot :) Also since I see the guys in ST and throughout the farm system over time, it is easier that way once they get up and can help introduce you to players you need. Lee did that in Lakewood actually, during BP went around telling my entire list of guys I needed (only like 5 guys but still a help).

www.mikejanesphotography.com

[fslshooter]

I didnt have the $$$ to hit the FSL/GCL this year but hopefully next year. I was there for Spring Training though for 12 days.
If you get down this way next Spring or during the 2006 FSL/GCL season, give me a shout. I don't know how much ST I'll be shooting but I'll probably be the Florida State League photog again in 2006.

Not sure if you heard but Lee Gwaltney had surgery at the end of the season. His mom told me it went well but I've not heard from her in a while. Lee's one of the good guys -- he always had time to chat. I'd really like to see him make it -- he's definitely big enough and when his stuff is working it's nasty.

Thanks for the link -- I took a look at your website. I really do like the layout -- good stuff there too!

[MJPhotos24]

wow, I didnt know Lee had surgery, I'll give him a call this week and see how he's doing. We hung out a bunch when he was in Batavia. I havent spoken w/ Barb since he was promoted to West Tenn. so I'm out of the loop big time. He was nasty in Batavia when his stuff was on for sure to. He got hurt their to so I didnt get to see him as much as I would of liked.

I'm hoping to get to Spring Training but I might be coaching so not really sure...I always lose money on the trip but its a great break from the snow! I love going down and hangin out w/ the guys though so I'm going to try my best. Orlando is always my first and last day of the trip w/ as many other teams as possible in between.

FSL/GCL I want to do badly!! I planned a 31 day "tour" this year of the APPY/GCL/FSL/some southern League but just couldnt afford it. I did hit the APPY though which was fun (even though some of the teams GM's and stuff had a big league attitude problem). The players and coaches (for the most part) were awsome. Brandon Snyder (Orioles) told me only one other photog went there to get him that he knew of so I knew there wasnt an overload of guys like in Triple-A. He however did not like the photos done of him, ha. Also lost money on that trip so far, but again it was fun.

Glad you liked the site, I just launched it like two weeks ago as I am trying to get more into "event photography". Before I only did baseball, but now have to expand out a bit more into other sports around here to make up lost $$$.

[fslshooter]

Lee's probably in Mesa, Arizona now doing rehab but Barb will know for sure. When you talk with them, please tell them I said hello. I've never met Barb personally -- our conversations have all been e-mail.

I thought of another source for an assistant for you -- in fact it's who I use at Daytona. Ask the GM if he'll get someone from the fan club to help you. Most if not all minor league teams have a fan club and their members will know the players you'll want to shoot. You can pay your assistant with a photo that they can raffle off to raise money for the club. This might not work at AAA or AA level but I'm almost certain High A clubs and below would do it.

I've been a season ticket holder at Braves ST for the past few years and have two seats in the shade and out of the rain behind first base. If you do make it down to ST, let me know when you'll be at Disney and if it's not already taken one of the seats is yours.

Believe me I understand the $$$ problem shooting minor league baseball. As I said in an earlier post, I doubt that anyone makes any real money at our level and that applies to photogs too. However, it's fun and relatively hassle free especially in High A where I shoot. I love the game of baseball and with 12 teams, none more than a half day drive from my home, I can make it to one or more games every day of the summer and have fun even if I don't make any money.

[MJPhotos24]

I'm thinking later this week I'll give Lee a call. I have so much goin on mon-wed that probably barely see daylight before that.

In the lower minors definately could probably grab a fan club member, I am usually talking to someone like that early on as they aren't doing much. I shoot a lot of AAA and AA so probably wouldnt get one there. Definately going to be prepared to have one, but wont go insane if I dont, ha.

I get press passes for spring training so probably wouldn't need the ticket, but thanks for the offer! I shoot from the 1st to last pitch usually so always in the photo pit. Orlando last few times I've been there was insane so I couldnt jump in the stands much to get photos without getting bumped around. Usually stay down past Kissimmee cheap as can get, like 28 bucks last year for our hotel (b4 taxes). Definately have to grab a bite or something down there.

Freelancing in the minors at any level doesn't make much money at all. I know a few guys who do well but they have other salaries (teams,cards) and not just BA, ATY, etc. After my playin days ended in college this was one great way to stay in the game a bit (though I'd kill to step in and take one deep! ha). I make just enough to get my next trip basically and that includes my other income from coaching. It all goes into trips and equipment and when I run out, trips over until something else comes in.