ok to PS people's work now?

[Jemmind]

Hmm. How to ask without seeming like I am stirring up the beehive. Wasnt there months ago big discussion on whether or not it was ok to take people's photos and edit them without them asking for it to be done or saying it's ok? Now it seems every five pictures I look at someone says, here, I coundn't help but to take a stab at it....
Personally I could care less if people PS my photos when telling me how to do something better, see my signature just to be sure.
But it does bother me a little bit to see the rules being broken so much. Unless it was discussed again in amother post where it's been said that it is ok to do it.
thats my concern

Julie

[Maureen Souza]

Yes, people need to ask permission if it is not posted under their sig. If there is a complaint against the violater, the member can PM them or us for assist.

Please, not everyone wants their photos edited so make sure to ask first!!

[Cadwell]

The guidelines on modifying other peoples work are clearly stated in the Guidelines on posting images (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51052)

If you do not get a written permission to edit a photo, you may not edit that photo and post the edited photo back. This applies ALL FORUMS. Giving the permission can be simply "post processing examples welcome."

I would object most strongly to anyone editing one of my photographs without my prior permission.

[Maureen Souza]

I would object most strongly to anyone editing one of my photographs without my prior permission.

Glenn: your photos never need any of our editing help. They are always gorgeous!

[Big_B]

Flirt ;)

[Maureen Souza]

Flirt ;)

:o :o

[Jemmind]

Yes, people need to ask permission if it is not posted under their sig. If there is a complaint against the violater, the member can PM them or us for assist.

Please, not everyone wants their photos edited so make sure to ask first!!

I agree. But unless the person who's photo was edited complains about it, then it doesn't matter though, correct? I see it happen alot, but it's not my place to say anything since it's not my photo being edited without my permission. Which, like I said I don't mind personally. I just hate seeing the rules broken so often.

Julie

[Pekka]

I agree. But unless the person who's photo was edited complains about it, then it doesn't matter though, correct? I see it happen alot, but it's not my place to say anything since it's not my photo being edited without my permission. Which, like I said I don't mind personally. I just hate seeing the rules broken so often.

Julie

The no-edit rule is all about respecting copyright. That is why it is important.

[tommykjensen]

I agree. But unless the person who's photo was edited complains about it, then it doesn't matter though, correct? I see it happen alot, but it's not my place to say anything since it's not my photo being edited without my permission. Which, like I said I don't mind personally. I just hate seeing the rules broken so often.

Julie

If the owner does not complain then I guess the owner does not mind (provided the owner has seen it).

But still the person editing the photo should ask unless the owner has specifically requested edits. I really don't think it is too much to ask before editing (or at least posting it).

I have put a no-edit-without-permission text on all my photos. Not because I think they can't be improved but because I want the right to say no and if someone edits my photo I want the option to host it on my own website so it does not disappear when the person did the editing decides its time to cleanup. I hate when I come across old threads where there is a red-x instead of a photo. This is the main reason why I don't want just anybody to edit my photos.

[Cadwell]

Glenn: your photos never need any of our editing help. They are always gorgeous!

:lol: Thanks ;)

Actually, they're not - there is always room for improvement... but, good bad or ugly they're the photos I took and that's what I want people to see. I'm always open to constructive criticism on what I do post and hopefuly I'll get it better next time!

[fslshooter]

A couple of things that I've learned about rules in my lifetime -- some folks don't think rules apply to them and some never take the time to learn what the rules are.

[Scottes]

I think there was only one time someone edited one of my shots without permission, but it was an improvement and I learned from it. I wasn't happy when I first saw the photo but didn't mind once I saw the end result. I spend a fair amount of time passing on knowledge around here - particularly with Photoshop - so it would have been hypocritical for me to get upset about the improvement. But respecting the copyright is extremely important, and for that I should have gotten upset.

[Radtech1]

I remember a year or two ago when the forum was on the brink of folding. Things had pretty much drifted into anarchy and Pekka (appropriately so) was throwing up his arms and giving up. What ended up happening was a complete revamping of the Guidelines, and the forum stayed.

Having dodged that bullet, I was very sensitive to disregard for the Guidelines which allowed us to continue. When people would edit and repost shots, I would PM them. Here is the text of what I would send:

Hi,

Welcome to the forums. I see that you are fairly new, so I am not using the public form for this. It is possible that you did not read the Sticky: "Guidelines on posting images". Please do so. It states:

If you do not get a written permission to edit that photo, you may not edit that photo and post the edited photo back. This applies ALL FORUMS. Giving the permission can be simply "post processing examples welcome."

Rad

Boldface on because it is boldface in the Sticky. Now this does not appear to be at all confrontational to me. Well, you should see some of the profane responses I received! I mean really really contemptuous and abusive.

As a result, I asked for understanding. I posted essentially your same question here last August, http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89997 - specifically asking for clarity on this and the post went unanswered. I took the lack of interest in clarifying the question as a tacit acknowledgment that the "rule" is no longer relevant. As such, I have been editing other shots where I could offer help on how to improve them.

It is my feeling that there is a context that needs to be taken in to consideration. Perhaps the Guidelines need to be updated reflecting both context and the reality of what is already occurring. (If you can’t beat ‘em, lead ‘em.) I think that editing and reposing should be disallowed in the "Photo Sharing" sections, however, it should be allowed in the "Sharing Knowhow" sections. When posting in the "Sharing Knowhow" sections, you are already in a "How do I fix... What should I have done.... Can this be better..." environment. I believe that the permission to edit is implicit in the question itself.

Therefor I will continue to edit and repost in the "Share Knowhow" sections as I see fit, because sometimes that is the clearest way to answer the question. But never, never in the "Photo Sharing" sections unless the poster specifically states that it is OK.

Rad

[tommykjensen]

Therefor I will continue to edit and repost in the "Share Knowhow" sections as I see fit, because sometimes that is the clearest way to answer the question. But never, never in the "Photo Sharing" sections unless the poster specifically states that it is OK.

In other words. If I post a photo in critqiue and do not specifically say I want edits You are going to disrespect the text I have on my photo saying no edits without permission?

I really don't think the rule is unclear as You suggest. What I think is that either users simply do not read the rules, they read but forget them, they read and don't care and of course there are those that do read and follow (the majority fortunately).

I think You had good intentions with the PMs You sent but maybe You should have sent a PM to a moderator instead or used the report post option.

[Radtech1]

In other words. If I post a photo in critqiue and do not specifically say I want edits You are going to disrespect the text I have on my photo saying no edits without permission?

Point taken, I should have been more specific and said, "In the absence of a request not to edit (either in the post or on the shot)..."

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Rad

[tommykjensen]

Point taken, I should have been more specific and said, "In the absence of a request not to edit (either in the post or on the shot)..."

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.


However I would suggest that You follow the guidelines outlined by Pekka here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51022) note that it applies to all forums not just share.

If there is any doubt weather the user wants edit then ask before posting.

[Radtech1]

However I would suggest that You follow the guidelines outlined by Pekka here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51022) note that it applies to all forums not just share.

If there is any doubt weather the user wants edit then ask before posting.

Absolutely no doubt that those are the guidelines. And that was my point with attempting to share those guidelines with others, especially with the new members who might not have had a chance to read them.

Where I began to have some difficulty on the issue is the state we are in now. A state where what is being allowed to happen is different than the stated policy. That, coupled with the lack of response I got when I questioned this forum for clarification, I went with the most common sense approach I could.

That common sense approach is this 1) In "'Photo Sharing" section, no one is asking for any input on their technique or results. They are simply saying, "Look at the picture I took." 2) In the 'Sharing Knowhow" section and especially "Critique Corner" they are "specifically requesting comments, advice and critique of value and merits of both photos and the photographer". And if the most effective way for me to offer those "comments, advice and critique" is visually, by editing and reposting, then so be it.

Rad

[tommykjensen]

I have raise the issue with the other moderators and have suggested that the guideline is moved to the rules page so there is no question that it is a rule that should be followed.

Just because someone else post edits without permission does not mean You can do it. In fact You don't know in all cases if there has been exchanged PM's asking for permission so please only post edits if specifically requested. And the forum section know-how does not imply permission granted. The OP have to specifically allow or request edits.

[Radtech1]

I have raise the issue with the other moderators and have suggested that the guideline is moved to the rules page so there is no question that it is a rule that should be followed.

I whole heartedly agree! My main concern was, as I stated, how to behave when "policy via statute" (The guidelines) differs from "policy via practice" (What is actually allowed to happen), especially in the absence of any further input (The lack of response to my post). And there is no doubt that this is the state we are in, otherwise, Jemmind would have never thought to make her post starting this thread.

Also to be considered is "What is editing?"

Lets say I post this shot:

http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/78486/Ex1.jpg

OK,

Is it editing if someone post this back with text that says "Clone THAT out."

http://home.ripway.com/2004-2/78486/Ed2.jpg
Does that qualify as an Edit and Repost?

This is more than just idle wondering. I seriously want some guidance on this this time. As I said above, I lived through one "brush with death" of this board, I don't want another.

[tommykjensen]

Yes in my opinion that is editing. You have altered an original image, yes to illustrate a point but I would consider this an edit.

If the photo is altered in any way it is edited in my opinion.

[tommykjensen]

As for allowing edits to occur, I think the reason is that if the original poster does not complain or even post a thank You then there is no need for action.

But I agree that when it occurs so often without the OP having given specific permission it is easy to just follow.

I have noticed that more and more put that permission permanently in their signatures. Julie is one, Maureen another and there are others. I have put a no-edit-without-permisson text on all my photos for the reason listed in above post. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=945396&postcount=9)

[Jemmind]

why have a rule though that is only enforced if the person complains? I mean, that would be as if I was a drug dealer and the cops didn't mind until my neighbor complained that I was a drug dealer, then the cops arrest me.
It's so funny, people always say hope you don't mind and post it away, instead of waiting to see if they don't mind. I even typed in "hope you don't mind" in the search boxes and look how many I find:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112202&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=115181&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114653&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114812&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114961&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=115007&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114520&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114261&highlight=hope+you+don%27t+mind

I mean these are just a few, and most of the time the original poster did not mind after they were done, and did not say in the post to feel free to edit. But it's happening alot. I see it all the time. And it's BLATENT disregard of the rules. Maybe i should just ignore it, but it's like every time I look at a post and see it happening, I just wonder why those people think they don't have to follow the rules.

Julie

EDIT TO ADD:
PS>>>next time I get pulled over by the cops think I can say I was hoping you didn't mind that I broke the law? :)

[Radtech1]

why have a rule though that is only enforced if the person complains?

Julie,

Thanks, this is my point EXACTLY about the difference between the rule and the reality. We may have a rule against editing and reposting, but the policy is that it is perfectly OK to edit and repost because that is what is being allowed on a day in day out basis.

I don't like it. I would rather everyone follow the rules, but 'till then, I will use common sense.

Rad

[tommykjensen]

As I said I have rasied this for discussion among the moderators so this can be cleared up.

In the meantime You can always use the report post to have moderator look into the specific posts.

[Pekka]

The policy and rule is that photos should not be edited and redisplayed without permission from copyright owner. If you see a violation to this, report the post.

Even with more mods now we may fail to read all posts daily. That is why user reporting is important.

[schmoelzel]

Honestly, I really think that this is much ado about nothing! Most here are here to learn and that is why you see some people editing posts........if anyone is offended, they only have to report to a moderator. The reason we don't hear about this too often is because most of us are not 'offended' when someone edits our photos! If I was so concerned about copyright infringement, believe me, I wouldn't post pictures in an open forum. The rules are there but don't lose sleep over other people's disregard or ignorance of them......go out and make more photos!

[belmondo]

The reason we don't hear about this too often is because most of us are not 'offended' when someone edits our photos!

Probably true, but there is legal precedent protecting these images, and the easiest way around it is to ask permission --- not to assume their owners are members of that majority of which you speak.

[BottomBracket]

I am one of the people who don't think it is ok to PS other people's work without permission. I just think it is a simple courtesy that should be extended to the OP. However, I realize that there are quite a few who don't mind that people have a go at their pics. And there are a lot of memners here who are oblivious to the the rule that you have to ask permission first.

Perhaps we all should have an indicator on whether we allow our pictures to be processed or not. It could be included in our sigs, or better yet under our name and member status for all to see. I think having this indicator (which I believe should be mandatory) will go a long way towards improving this situation of ours.

[schmoelzel]

I am one of the people who don't think it is ok to PS other people's work without permission. I just think it is a simple courtesy that should be extended to the OP. However, I realize that there are quite a few who don't mind that people have a go at their pics. And there are a lot of memners here who are oblivious to the the rule that you have to ask permission first.

Perhaps we all should have an indicator on whether we allow our pictures to be processed or not. It could be included in our sigs, or better yet under our name and member status for all to see. I think having this indicator (which I believe should be mandatory) will go a long way towards improving this situation of ours.

Your suggestion seems to be the best........under our name (just like where we are from). That way no one can claim ignorance of the rules. Sorry if I made it seem like I am condoning this; I'm not but I think that when someone starts to single out people in a thread like this, it seems very petty. Everyone 'should' know the rules of the forum but a gentle reminder can go a long way rather than starting a copyright infringement battle.

[schmoelzel]

Ok......just re-read this entire post and I apologize for my previous comments about the 'much ado about nothing'. I had assumed that the original poster of this thread was complaining about her shots being edited and she states that she welcomes edits......I misread this part! The very easy answer to this post about editing is simple.......Pekka's rules about editing without permission are clear and simple to understand; it is NOT ALLOWED. End of story!

[CyberDyneSystems]

Speaking for myself,...

I beleive it would be truly difficult to police this for enforcement without waiting for a complaint.

Otherwsie we would be forced to assume in the other direction..
Guilty untill proven innocent...

ie: If A mod sees a PS job in a thread,. how does the Mod know that the OP did not give permission via PM to the replier who did the PS work?

We would need to initiate and probe into what could be perfectly legit,. and this sort of behavior from Mods does not go over very well with the membership.

Were not likely to go looking for infractions that do not exist.

The thread needs to be reported for action to be taken.

The steps taken for prevention are the rules being posted.

After that there can only be a reaction to a reported post.