When will the 30D be out?

[Jon]

Even with the 1D series all full-frame (which Canon's said before they're moving to), they'll stick with 1.6x crop. 1.3 is histroy, if not the next time the 1D upgrades, then the time after. EF-S lenses won't adequately cover a 1.3x crop, so Canon won't keep that format.

Note: in-camera IS requires the lens to cover more than the area of the sensor, so as the sensor moves it's still getting "real" image, not vignetting. So using in-camera IS will limit your lens choices, or the designers' efforts. And a FF with in-camera IS would require all-new lenses.

[CoolToolGuy]

Okay, so Christmas is over and it might be a bit early, but I think its time to start a thread on what comes next - 20D replacement, new consumer DSLR, 1 Series upgrades, whatever.

Perhaps the Mods will make this a sticky? (hint, hint)

My view:

A replacement for the 20D is probably a lock, since the 20D has been out for about 16 months. Personally, I think it will be a 1.6 crop sensor.
It might be a little soon for a Rebel XT/350D replacement.
The 1 Series seems to be holding its own. Canon says the two (1D and 1Ds) will merge in the future to one model, but I think it is too soon for that.
I'm hopeful for some lens announcements, but that should probably be in the lens forum.Have Fun,

[jeffherald]

Hint to Canon: Please offer eye-controlled focus in a DSLR. Even if it's a step-up model for extra money, I'll buy it. I love that feature. It's what made me choose Canon over all other brands back in '99 when I bought the Elan 7e.

(I hope somone from Canon is reading this forum :D )

[denMAR]

I think it would be logical to call it the 25D. Makes sense. When they introduced the newer powershots the names changed from A70 to A75, and A80 to A85.

[condyk]

Wake me up three months after it's out when prices are settling and strengths/weaknesses well known ... though hopefully I'll be in some exotic location having fun taking great shots with my outmoded 350D and so won't care.

[shiato storm]

i wonder if they'll have a bash at a 18-200 range lens...there's one from sigma, tamron and nikon. that leaves the obvious guessing on who's next doesn't it.

[FlyingPete]

My 2c, it will be a minor upgrade, bigger LCD, some new firmware features, perhaps some more frame buffer, but just a minor upgrade, too many improvements to the 20D will make it interfere with 5D sales (such as full frame). Perhaps a 25D or more likely a 20Dn or 20Dv.

They may go the way of the EOS30 and 30v, where the 30v has a nice new finish and embossed dials :D

It may look like this:
http://www.flyingpete.nzpages.net/POTN/20Dv.jpg

[ACDCROCKS]

I think I gave up on the New 20d. I have About 15 days to decide whether or or not to get it. If I do get it, I have to sell my other camera and unfortantly my guitar to get the 20d/70-200IS

[mdr]

What happened to the 15D?

[mdr]

As all the Nikonian's are pointing out, the new Nikon D200 is far superior to the 20D. This is not surprising to me as Nikon would have lost the plot completely if they couldn't better a Canon competitor that has been on the market for 16 month.

The only thing that's holding Nikonians from parting with their cash and buy the D200 is that they are expecting Canon to announce the release of a far superior 30D (or 25D or 20D Mk II) at next months PMA.

Anyone heard any Chinese (or should I say) Japanese whispers about such an announcement?

[roli_bark]

I throw a glove by claiming there will be NO 20D successor !.

What I hope will happen is:
1. A new 5D Mrk II with a whole new WIDE eye-piece view finder + close to 30 to 40 AF points.
2. That the present 5D price drops to below $2000. That will make it a 20D virtual successor [kind'a]

Canon - would ya please listen to my small plea....???

[roanjohn]

I really doubt that Canon would announce a DSLR this coming PMA. I remember once when all we got was a PRO 1. So I'm thinking the most we are gonna see is a PRO 2 with a larger sensor inside.......very much like the Sony R-1 (did I say that right??).

Ro1

[zacker]

do you really think canon would resurrect the Pro1 with a pro2? I mean... they might, but i dont think theyd use the name pro2... With all the talk of the pro1 not being stepped up over the last couple years it hardley seems possible. But, they might and would have to call it by another name.. powershot P200 or some bull %&#* like that!
-zacker-

[spencer87]

Wake me up three months after it's out when prices are settling and strengths/weaknesses well known ... though hopefully I'll be in some exotic location having fun taking great shots with my outmoded 350D and so won't care.

lol :lol:

I've had my heart set on upgrading to a 20d for several months now, and I have had a few people tell me I should wait to see what happens this February. I still may hold off for an announcement, but I'd like to buy before a trip to Ireland in March so if the expected replacement isnt coming out until April, it wont really matter (for me).

[Tom W]

do you really think canon would resurrect the Pro1 with a pro2? I mean... they might, but i dont think theyd use the name pro2... With all the talk of the pro1 not being stepped up over the last couple years it hardley seems possible. But, they might and would have to call it by another name.. powershot P200 or some bull %&#* like that!
-zacker-

Well, if they do, they'd better build it with something other than a 2/3" Sony CCD. Maybe a nice 4/3 Canon CMOS sensor would be reasonable.

[roli_bark]

Well, if they do, they'd better build it with something other than a 2/3" Sony CCD. Maybe a nice 4/3 Canon CMOS sensor would be reasonable.

The 4/3 format is a marketing flop (AKA Olympus E1 , E300...]. A TRUE penta-prism based, film-camera-like bright & large Viewfinder is much more important.

[Tom W]

The 4/3 format is a marketing flop (AKA Olympus E1 , E300...]. A TRUE penta-prism based, film-camera-like bright & large Viewfinder is much more important.

Ain't going to happen on a Pro-1 - there will not be a pentaprism & optical TTL viewfinder. But if they want to increase the pixel count on that camera (which they have to do to compete) and have useable ISO-400, they have to put a bigger sensor in it. No way around the physics of the situation.

I mentioned 4/3 since it is a step between APS-C and the 2/3" CCD that's in the Pro-1 now. Olympus may have a trademark on the name, but the dimensions can be duplicated, I'm pretty sure.

[roanjohn]

I think that Sony hit it on the target with the Pro-sumer market. A camera that can deliver SLR like images but don't have interchangeable lens capabilities. Even if Canon markets a G series camera with a similar sensor from the XT, I would probably be the first in line to get one.

AND........the PRO 1 has an L series lens attached to it.........which is really a waste cuz of the sensor.

Ro1

[roanjohn]

Ain't going to happen on a Pro-1 - there will not be a pentaprism & optical TTL viewfinder. But if they want to increase the pixel count on that camera (which they have to do to compete) and have useable ISO-400, they have to put a bigger sensor in it. No way around the physics of the situation.

I mentioned 4/3 since it is a step between APS-C and the 2/3" CCD that's in the Pro-1 now. Olympus may have a trademark on the name, but the dimensions can be duplicated, I'm pretty sure.

That is actually a great idea. A large enough sensor in between the entry-level amateur P&S and the XT that can deliver (at least) a clean shot at ISO 400.

Ro1

[Mthorpe_Davies]

My 2c, it will be a minor upgrade, bigger LCD, some new firmware features, perhaps some more frame buffer, but just a minor upgrade, too many improvements to the 20D will make it interfere with 5D sales (such as full frame). Perhaps a 25D or more likely a 20Dn or 20Dv.

They may go the way of the EOS30 and 30v, where the 30v has a nice new finish and embossed dials :D

It may look like this:
http://www.flyingpete.nzpages.net/POTN/20Dv.jpg

I agree with you completely, I can't see them making too many improvements as it might tempt punters away from the 5D.

[zacker]

if a new pro1 were to come out, biggest upgrades would have to be, sensor size (less noise) and no more shutter lag!! and do something about the damn EV i hate it.. id rather use the LCD screen... cant they do something with mirrors for a "Live" view?
-zacker-

[ScottE]

I agree with you completely, I can't see them making too many improvements as it might tempt punters away from the 5D.
I do not agree. APS sized sensor are going to be much more mainstream than full frame sensors in the future. Canon will not want to see their market migrating to Nikon in order to get cameras with features comparable to the D200 or D2X. I expect the next generation of the 20D will incorporate at least the improved auto-focus of the 5D and otherwise outperform the Nikon 200D and possibly challenge the Nikon D2X in most of its features. Canon has no desire to cede any of its market to Nikon, Pentax or Konica/Minolta.

[arunchs]

Does that mean if buyers wait for a while, there is a chance to pick up inventory of 20D at a much lower price?

[Salleke]

Does that mean if buyers wait for a while, there is a chance to pick up inventory of 20D at a much lower price?

YES.

[Sprout Crumble]

I agree with you completely, I can't see them making too many improvements as it might tempt punters away from the 5D.

The 5D sells to people who specifically want a full-frame sensor. If you don't the price difference between it and the 20D is prohibitive to say the least.

Canon need a new 20d to compete with the Nikon D200. The 20d and 350d are Canons money spinners, the 5d, much less so and failing to stay on top in this price range will not bode well for the bottom line.

[lakiluno]

There is no way canon will not have a serious upgrade to the 20D. It is even more important now, as nikon have a serious competitor. If Canon has any sense, they will be rushing to get a 20D upgrade tested and ready for sale as soon as possible.

[ACDCROCKS]

as nikon have a serious competitor

LOL! thats a good one... How long did Nikon have the D100 out? They are some pretty damn lazy people at nikon.
-Former Nikonian:lol:

[sapearl]

Whatever Canon comes up with I'm all for the basics of even better durablity, with additional improvements in weather/environment resistance to moisture and dust.

Also, for us boomers out there whose peepers aren’t what they used to be, larger, higher rez, bright LCD’s and larger/better magnified viewfinders would be very welcome. Many of us come from the land of medium format and have been spoiled by those large, bright optical finders.

And let’s not forget keeping it simple! Whatever happened to good solid, basic photographic tools for goodness sake? Yes, digital has made some phenomenal and creative advances in recent years, but they’ve also added a layer of learning curve complexity that can actually slow things down if you get lost in a “less than logically designed” submenu function.

And please, no voice activation (I forget who suggested that)…. so impressive for the bride and half the guests in the church to hear you talking to the camera.

Stu Pearl

[dpastern]

I've been thinking about this the past few days, and here are my suspicions - come February, and the pma, they'll introduce the successor to the 20D. My guess it'll be similar to the 20D, but will be a full frame sensor, 8mp, I doubt much higher, as it'll encroach onto the 5D territory then. Price will either be around the same as the 20D, or a few hundred dollars higher. Features will be very similar to the 20D, but possible a new and revamped digic III processor will be unveiled. I also think that Canon will keep the 20D in service, in parallel to this new model. Will the new camera model be named the 30D or the 50D? In all honesty, I suspect it'll be named a 50D, only to reduce confusion with the older D30 unit. I honestly see no reason for the price differential being so high between the eos 20D cmos sensor and the full frame ones. It does not cost 4 grand more!

If you look at this page (a comparison between the 20D and the 5D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?method=sidebyside&cameras=canon_eos20d%2Ccanon_eos5d&show=all

You'll notice the main differences:

1. Full frame sensor
2. Large LCD screen with more pixels for better viewing
3. Much larger buffer

The 5D is a built more solidly I say, given the pictures (although I'd have to pick it up to really judge it). Now, consider that in Australia, the 20D body only is around 2k, and the 5D body only around 5k, that's a 3k price differential. Are the above differences really worth that much? I think not. This is why I think that Canon will introduce a replacement for the 20D and it'll be a full frame equivalent.

Feel free to argue for and against my ideas!

Dave

[Salleke]

I've been thinking about this the past few days, and here are my suspicions - come February, and the pma, they'll introduce the successor to the 20D. My guess it'll be similar to the 20D, but will be a full frame sensor, 8mp, I doubt much higher, as it'll encroach onto the 5D territory then. Price will either be around the same as the 20D, or a few hundred dollars higher. Features will be very similar to the 20D, but possible a new and revamped digic III processor will be unveiled. I also think that Canon will keep the 20D in service, in parallel to this new model. Will the new camera model be named the 30D or the 50D? In all honesty, I suspect it'll be named a 50D, only to reduce confusion with the older D30 unit. I honestly see no reason for the price differential being so high between the eos 20D cmos sensor and the full frame ones. It does not cost 4 grand more!

If you look at this page (a comparison between the 20D and the 5D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?method=sidebyside&cameras=canon_eos20d%2Ccanon_eos5d&show=all

You'll notice the main differences:

1. Full frame sensor
2. Large LCD screen with more pixels for better viewing
3. Much larger buffer

The 5D is a built more solidly I say, given the pictures (although I'd have to pick it up to really judge it). Now, consider that in Australia, the 20D body only is around 2k, and the 5D body only around 5k, that's a 3k price differential. Are the above differences really worth that much? I think not. This is why I think that Canon will introduce a replacement for the 20D and it'll be a full frame equivalent.

Feel free to argue for and against my ideas!

Dave

Dave, your speculations are as good as ours but I think that the successor of the 20 D will NOT have a FF sensor.
Bigger LCD, more buffer memory, higher MP, faster write to the CF cards, but FF? No way they do that IMHO.

[dpastern]

Possibly, yes. But - if that was the case, it would offer very little improvement to the 20D I think, making it not worth the effort of most people upgrading to it from their 10D/20D etc, etc. The 5D is still far above in terms of price what the average person is going to pay for it (and I'm in no way belittling that camera's abilities by saying that). So, if Canon does introduce a 20D replacement that just has a faster transfer rate, buffer and maybe 10 or 12mp, it won't sell as much as they'd like it to. And big companies like sales. Lots of them. Don't be surprised to see Canon keep the 20D and discount it, drop the 350 line, and introduce a new model with full frame sensor. Well, I can dream!

Dave

[Salleke]

Yes we can all have dream. Dreams sometimes makes life better ... ;)

They will probably also add pictures styles and the same AF points as the 5 D
But that will be all I think. Except for other minor upgrade gadgets.

But like you and many others we'll have to wait and see. But be assured that
Canon will have a few "NEW" things in they'r sleeves.

So good luck and sweet dreams to all of us.

[grego]

That wound render the 5D useless then. No way its full frame, but I'm sure there's like 10 other threads about the next 20D........

[dpastern]

Well, I think it'll be a full frame sensor version of the current 20D, with a lower mp than the current 5D. I suspect a deeper buffer as well to match the Nikon D200. Expect the price to be higher though than the current 20D, most probably by over a grand. As an example, the 20D body only, goes for around 2k in Australia, and the 5D for around 5k. That's roughly US 1500 and 3650 respectively. If they offer the full frame version of the 20D for say, US 2500, keep the 5D where it is (with the superior resolution), and keep the 20D where it is, but at a lower price than it currently is (say US 1100), they'll get good market coverage. They'll most probably offer a new and improved version of the 5D with weather protection, etc for a price premium. The baby 350D will most probably be pushed from 8mp to 10mp (with no other changes to the camera) for the same price as a starter body to get you hooked into the Canon lens system.

My reasoning for this is that eventually, people will want full frame digital SLRs. Realistically, look at most people's posts - they want full frame, but don't want to pay the money. As Canon makes more and more full frame sensors, their costs will go down, and they can either sell at the same price and make a greater profit, or drop prices and entice more new owners. The first option is a short term thing, the 2nd one is the smart way of doing it. If Canon didn't have any competitors, the first option would be the way to go, but since it has competitors, it has to match them for both price, reliability and features.

Dave

[steved110]

I reckon they'll aim to compete price wise and spec wise with Nikon's new D200 - so more megapixels, bigger LCD screen, probably not much else.
I think the answer will probably come soon though as 20D prices seem to have got quite low (in a relative way!)

[condyk]

So, what is it about FF that makes it FF other than history and agreement? If that is correct, then why should people want it over any other size?

[condyk]

There is no way canon will not have a serious upgrade to the 20D. It is even more important now, as nikon have a serious competitor. If Canon has any sense, they will be rushing to get a 20D upgrade tested and ready for sale as soon as possible.

Why do people like the L lens line low depreciation because, partly, it stays constant with few new models and yet somehow Nikon keeping a body constant is seen as a bad thing? It's only a bad thing if you're a feature driven 'keep up with the Joneses!' type. Part of the reason L's retain good value is because they stay around. Maybe Nikon bodies are intended to do the same and maybe they take time because they want to avoid undue quality testing by 'customers'. It all depends on perception. Fact is, no one here knows the strategies of Canon and Nikon. We just see bias and in group/out group thinking.

[chris clements]

The 20D replacement has to be announced at PMA to give Canon equal airtime with their rivals' DSLR launches built round the new Sony APS 10mp chip.

Why do so many expect this chip to appear in bridge cameras (Pro2, whatever) ? It's surely intended for DSLR's - Sony have only put it in a bridge body because they ain't got their own DSLR (yet).
The 2 main advantages of bridges over DSLR's are size and price. Both gaps have closed markedly in the last 18 months. Put a chip with this surface area in a bridge, and the size advantage all but disappears.

[roli_bark]

So, what is it about FF that makes it FF other than history and agreement? If that is correct, then why should people want it over any other size?

"Why people like someting" is an irrelevant question.

The question that should be asked is whether sensor size will get larger as years go by. The answer is YES, because:


People buy it, because they like bigger, larger things...,
ISO noise gets lower,
Viewfinder gets brighter and bigger,
Technology allows it.

[EOSAddict]

Actually for most technology people prefer smaller and more compact that delivers the same performance!

[Sprout Crumble]

Couldn't disagree more. There is no trend towards full frame sensors.
Out of the myriad DSLRs available from all the major manufacturers, only Canon has bothered and then with its two lowest volume models. NO other manufacturer has shown any interest in sensors that large and as time goes by (rapidly), the benefits of 35mm sensors will become increasingly marginalised as the limits of optics, printing and the human eye become overriding factors. A 35mm sensor is a fine, flexible alternative to a medium format camera and thats where the competition lies. There has never been a trend for electronic devices to get larger, nor has there been any reasonable dissatisfaction with the APS sensor size.

People forget that sensor design is still in its relative infancy and yet the 1dsII is already stretching optical design quality. Its absurd to presume that anyone wants to lug around equipment twice the size and weight they have to just because "a 50mm is a 50mm". Its not written in stone that 50mm is a standard field of view lens. Simply alter your mind to accept 30mm as standard and reevaluate your focal lengths from there. It doesn't cost anything. I would lay serious money that the next Canon lens mount change, be it in five or fifteen years time, is to a much smaller diameter lens mount allowing higher quality from smaller diameter glass, that eventually APS will be seen as full frame and the whole argument will start again.

Full frame is not some Holy Grail that the poor masses aspire to, nor is it definitively superior to APS (the latter has several benefits of its own).

Oh, and no way the new 20D is full-frame. Its just not wanted by any other than a hardcore of enthusiasts (hence the 5D and its price).

I want an EOS 3D hi-spec (AF, drive, toys etc), solid 1.6x body. Its about time APS had its own 1D class camera. The 1D has always been about spec and build rather than sensor.


Edit - Agree with EOSaddict

[Tom W]

So, what is it about FF that makes it FF other than history and agreement? If that is correct, then why should people want it over any other size?

Because medium format isn't cheap enough yet. :)

[I Simonius]

Whatever Canon comes up with I'm all for the basics of even better durablity, with additional improvements in weather/environment resistance to moisture and dust.

Also, for us boomers out there whose peepers aren’t what they used to be, larger, higher rez, bright LCD’s and larger/better magnified viewfinders would be very welcome. Many of us come from the land of medium format and have been spoiled by those large, bright optical finders.

And let’s not forget keeping it simple! Whatever happened to good solid, basic photographic tools for goodness sake? Yes, digital has made some phenomenal and creative advances in recent years, but they’ve also added a layer of learning curve complexity that can actually slow things down if you get lost in a “less than logically designed” submenu function.

And please, no voice activation (I forget who suggested that)…. so impressive for the bride and half the guests in the church to hear you talking to the camera.

Stu Pearl

I'm looking forward to the day that I press abutton on a remote and the camera chugs into life and goers out and does a days's shooting for me, wirelessly uploads and sorts all the pics, decides on and runs photoshop actions, sends them to the shop (customers), takes payments, does the accounts and pats me on the head for a job well done!
:lol: :lol:

Like you I yearn for the simplicity of old cameras but with the expediency of digital

As to sensor size, I think in the future the only way will be up! _ up in size, I mean once you have the optimum amount of pixels ona chip where can you go but bigger chip? Gotta happen, I would imagine once sensors get to 24-32 MPs then there'll be little to be gained without increasing the chip size

Whether a gazillion-squillion MP Hassy sensor will ever come down to consumer prices is another matter, but we can hope:D

Ultimately imagine a large format DSLR at comsumer prices

way hay!:cool:

[Tom W]

The 20D replacement has to be announced at PMA to give Canon equal airtime with their rivals' DSLR launches built round the new Sony APS 10mp chip.

Just to note that while the new Sony DCS-R1 uses a new Sony CMOS chip with APS-C dimensions, Nikon's D200 (the most likely rival to the 20D and its successor) uses a CCD chip. It remains to be seen who builds a DSLR around the new Sony chip.

Why do so many expect this chip to appear in bridge cameras (Pro2, whatever) ? It's surely intended for DSLR's - Sony have only put it in a bridge body because they ain't got their own DSLR (yet).
The 2 main advantages of bridges over DSLR's are size and price. Both gaps have closed markedly in the last 18 months. Put a chip with this surface area in a bridge, and the size advantage all but disappears.

I don't think Sony is going to make a DSLR - I think (my opinion) that they have made some strong agreements with Nikon to supply CMOS chips in return for a non-competitive position WRT DSLR's. It got Sony into the CMOS business (prior to the D2x, they were pretty-much a CCD manufacturer) and it got Nikon a technology that they didn't have the capacity to do on their own.

On the other hand, Canon needs to compete in the non-DSLR department and the Pro-1 is the flagship of that arena. I don't think Canon will use Sony's chip, though. In terms of CMOS production, Canon's got experience, capacity, and knowledge.

[Tom W]

Actually for most technology people prefer smaller and more compact that delivers the same performance!

The key is "deliver the same performance".

[condyk]

"Why people like someting" is an irrelevant question.



It's the same question fella :lol: :lol: you just misread it!

[EOSAddict]

The key is "deliver the same performance".

In the same way large format gave way to medium to 35mm so FF digital will eventually die when technology (both sensor and lens) technology advances to the point where it can deliver better quality in a smaller package.

[Tom W]

In the same way large format gave way to medium to 35mm so FF digital will eventually die when technology (both sensor and lens) technology advances to the point where it can deliver better quality in a smaller package.

Unfortunately, the 35 mm doesn't produce better quality than medium format, and MF can't do what large format does. The main reason that 35's outsold larger formats for a multitude of years is that they've provided "good-enough" quality for a much lower price. And money does talk, as is evidenced by the thousands of cars sitting in the Walmart parking lot every day.

When film APS cameras came out, it was an instant flop. Why? Price. They weren't cheaper, or at least not "cheaper enough" for people to forego 35 for the smaller film. And they certainly weren't better. Probably good enough for most purposes, but since when was "good enough" a motivator when "better" can be had at nearly the same price?

Keep in mind also that technology cannot alter the laws of physics. We can see the effects of physics in the nasty noise of tiny-sensor'ed point-and-shoot cameras, just as we can see the results in the detail-smearing results of Nikon's noise reduction on the D2x.

[I Simonius]

In the same way large format gave way to medium to 35mm so FF digital will eventually die when technology (both sensor and lens) technology advances to the point where it can deliver better quality in a smaller package.

I imagine a scenario where we'll use our watches to take very high quality pics but there will be no sensor on the watch

What wil happen is that the watch will be allied to a GPS system that will access sattellites with all kinds of lenses etc and all you do essetially is instruct the GPS Sattellite camera system (GPSSCS) to choose the best sattellite, the lens etc and that will be beamed to your watch face for assessment..

Cool ofr paparazzi!

Think it's too far fetched? All inaccessible technology has filtered down the the comsumer eventaully!

[drews578]

I am developing a thought that I need some help with.

Have you noticed that the 5D and 1D Mark II have the same pixel pitch of 8.2x8.2 um ?

With the 5D you have the option to take a wider angle shot or crop down to the 1.3 version the 1D delivers. (I am not trying to compare the cameras just the chip sizes and trying to lay the foundation of my point so please dont flame me about how these a very different cameras)

I often read people saying they like the 1.6 crop factor to give them better reach on the tele side. That is great and all but how would it be any different if the same pixel pitch of the 20D of 6.4x6.4 um were expanded to full frame. You could still crop down to the 1.6 eqivilent and have your 8.2 MP cropped image. The full frame approach has the advantage of giving you more pixels if you choose not to crop and of course the ability to get wider angle shots as well. Full Frame in effect really gives you the option to choose your crop factor instead of it being decided for you.

This is the part where I would like some help from someone with math skills.

How many megapixels would a full frame chip have with a pixel pitch of 6.4 x 6.4 um ?

I look forward to both the info and group reaction. Thanks :)

[I Simonius]

How many megapixels would a full frame chip have with a pixel pitch of 6.4 x 6.4 um ?

I look forward to both the info and group reaction. Thanks :)

good question - I'm looking forward to the answer!

[Kickstart]

Hi

Suspect that around September this year Canon will launch a camera to replace the 1D and 1Ds, built like a tank and with a high speed crop mode as described above.

Shorter term they will have to replace the 20D to compete against the D200. Given how much more the 5D costs over the 20D and that much of that cost is meant to be down to the larger sensor alone (the 5D build quality feels much the same as the 20D) I cannot see Canon doubling the cost of the 20D and throwing away most of their potential customers.

My guess is that they will launch a 10~12mp 1.6 crop factor replacement for the 20D, still at 5fps. Possibly weather sealed. Possibly with a faster and more accurate autofocus.

Faster autofocus might well tempt me, especially if the better mode works on f4 rather than f2.8 and better lenses.

All the best

Keith

[Tom W]

How many megapixels would a full frame chip have with a pixel pitch of 6.4 x 6.4 um ?

I look forward to both the info and group reaction. Thanks :)

About 21 megapixels. 8.2 X (1.6 squared).

[drews578]

Kickstart good points indeed.

My post is not necessarily aimed at the replacement of the 20D since there needs to be a camera to fit that price point. I am more so addressing the Full Frame nay sayers. Not that they are wrong and I am right... just something to think about.

[drews578]

21 MP... WOW

My guess of how the purchase for that would go would be something to the effect of the cashier saying "including shipping and handling, your total today is one arm and one leg."

Not sure if the math is correct there. If you use your math formula as applied to the 1d Mark II to the 5D it does not work 8.5 mp x 1.3 crop = 11.05 The 5D is 13.3MP

[Tom W]

21 MP... WOW

My guess of how the purchase for that would go would be something to the effect of the cashier saying "including shipping and handling, your total today is one arm and one leg."


How about $6500-7000. 1Ds III?? :D

[sapearl]

You are forgetting about all those vendors currently making digital backs for medium format cameras. Now granted, these are fairly low volume, very expensive devices in a niche market, (too rich for my blood) but a lot of R&D has been going on in this area for several years. This sort of thing always trickles down into 35mm.

I wouldn't pay $9000 for a digital back for my Hassleblads. But if someone came out with a large chip 12 MP back for about the cost of a 5D, that would allow me to use all of my Zeiss lenses on all of my current hassy equipment.... well now you REALLY have my attention.

Stu Pearl

Couldn't disagree more. There is no trend towards full frame sensors.
Out of the myriad DSLRs available from all the major manufacturers, only Canon has bothered and then with its two lowest volume models. NO other manufacturer has shown any interest in sensors that large and as time goes by (rapidly), the benefits of 35mm sensors will become increasingly marginalised as the limits of optics, printing and the human eye become overriding factors. A 35mm sensor is a fine, flexible alternative to a medium format camera and thats where the competition lies. There has never been a trend for electronic devices to get larger, nor has there been any reasonable dissatisfaction with the APS sensor size.

[Sprout Crumble]

Wouldn't you agree that's an incredibly niche product though. There's always a place on the market for esoteric equipment.
I'd also argue that the current 20-40mp medium format backs are more a replacement for large negative cameras. Lets face it, 4x5 digital ain't gonna happen.
Sensor issues tend to be one of pixel density (thats what fans of full frame tell us is the main advantage of 35mm sized sensors) and MF backs have a very low density indeed. I'd argue that MF benefits more from advances in APS sensors than vice-versa.

[chris clements]

I don't think Sony is going to make a DSLR

Time will tell.

Like always, Sony will go where the market is. And the trend is emphatically towards DSLR's. Why else have they tied in with KonMin?

The big problem for any new boy is to establish a lens range/customer base from scratch. The rush by other big non-DSLR players to get a traditional bedmate is no coincidence (Panasonic/Olympus, Samsung/Pentax).

[Tom W]

Time will tell.

Like always, Sony will go where the market is. And the trend is emphatically towards DSLR's. Why else have they tied in with KonMin?

The big problem for any new boy is to establish a lens range/customer base from scratch. The rush by other big non-DSLR players to get a traditional bedmate is no coincidence (Panasonic/Olympus, Samsung/Pentax).

Sony is in an odd position - they manufacture a lot of the small chips that end up in the various P&S cameras, including Canon. I'm not sure that they'd want to snuggle up too tight with any one manufacturer for fear of losing the business of another. Then again, as fast as they spit out those small chips, they may not be much of a money-maker for Sony.

I wasn't aware of their ties with KM, but I know that they have some with Nikon (the D2x chip). I would hope that Nikon wasn't so desparate to get a chip for their flagship that they didn't tie a few strings to that deal. After all, Sony gets bragging rights (marketing capital) by putting their name on the sensor in every D2x sold.

[lakiluno]

I believe sonys launching their own DSLR with a KM Lens mount...

[brucea]

Whatever Canon plans to do next , they have already done it and are moving ahead with the next next thing.

Product development and roll-out cycles are not instantaneous. And the product is not the only thing that is part of the cycle -- buying raw materials and components, tooling and manufacturing, assembly, packaging, accessories, manuals, advertising, web information, press releases, etc., are all part of what is needed.

Since Canon is likely to have the next 20D at the next PMA, you can bet there is a warehouse set aside somewhere waiting for the product announcement to be made in order to start shipping.

[EOSAddict]

Unfortunately, the 35 mm doesn't produce better quality than medium format, and MF can't do what large format does. The main reason that 35's outsold larger formats for a multitude of years is that they've provided "good-enough" quality for a much lower price. And money does talk, as is evidenced by the thousands of cars sitting in the Walmart parking lot every day.

When film APS cameras came out, it was an instant flop. Why? Price. They weren't cheaper, or at least not "cheaper enough" for people to forego 35 for the smaller film. And they certainly weren't better. Probably good enough for most purposes, but since when was "good enough" a motivator when "better" can be had at nearly the same price?

Keep in mind also that technology cannot alter the laws of physics. We can see the effects of physics in the nasty noise of tiny-sensor'ed point-and-shoot cameras, just as we can see the results in the detail-smearing results of Nikon's noise reduction on the D2x.

I agree, but you must realise that, just as we could never have expected mobile phones with email and video in the mid-90s, so there will be an inevitable technology shift in imaging we cannot comprehend now that will sweep aside all out prejudices, including the one that only DSLRs can produce good quality images!

[chris clements]

I'm not sure that they'd want to snuggle up too tight with any one manufacturer for fear of losing the business of another.
True, but they're all committed to silence as part of their deal with Sony. We buyers aren't supposed to know that the same chip is powering all our P&S/bridge digicams, whatever the label on the front of our camera says.
Look at the farce of the recent Sony chip failure, when all the big names had to put out their own recall 5 minutes after Sony, each frantically trying not to make any connection.

[DigiDi]

I have held back on upgrading to the 5D because it was a tad larger than my 10D on the right side of the hand grip. As much as I wanted the 20D, I have held back because I felt it wasn't much of an upgrade and the 10D does me fine. The reason for another camera would be so that both my husband and I would have decent DSLRs. Since I'm really the serious amature photographer, I want to be sure the money that is spend is worth a decent upgrade as well. It's hard to decide whether a full frame or the 1.6X would also be a factor in the decision, but I'm also looking for improved ISO noise levels. I am really looking forward to see what comes out this Spring!

[Jon]

Why do people like the L lens line low depreciation because, partly, it stays constant with few new models and yet somehow Nikon keeping a body constant is seen as a bad thing? It's only a bad thing if you're a feature driven 'keep up with the Joneses!' type. Part of the reason L's retain good value is because they stay around. Maybe Nikon bodies are intended to do the same and maybe they take time because they want to avoid undue quality testing by 'customers'. It all depends on perception. Fact is, no one here knows the strategies of Canon and Nikon. We just see bias and in group/out group thinking.

What you're ignoring here is that even new and different lenses aren't showing marked degrees of improvement in optical properties or in mechanical performance. Lenses are pretty much at a plateau. That there are few new models is irrelevant. I'll point out that the supplanted 20-35, 28-70, and 80-200 L lenses are holding their prices pretty darn well even though newer lenses (16-35, 24-70 and 70-200) have supplanted them. With the new cameras, the resolution (except in the minds of the marketing departments) is the least of the difference. Real improvements are being made in noise handling (in spite of, not because of, the higher res. sensors), speed (response to photographer, burst rate, and write speed) and energy efficiency (directly affecting both battery life and size)which make noticeable differences in the capabilities available to the photographer. Nikon's maybe making strides in the megapixel area, but where does it stand with the other, more germaine, advances? That's why Nikon's denigrated.

[Jon]

21 MP... WOW

My guess of how the purchase for that would go would be something to the effect of the cashier saying "including shipping and handling, your total today is one arm and one leg."

Not sure if the math is correct there. If you use your math formula as applied to the 1d Mark II to the 5D it does not work 8.5 mp x 1.3 crop = 11.05 The 5D is 13.3MP
Actually, the 1D2 is 8.2 MP not 8.5, the 5D is 12.8 MP not 13.3, and Tom said, correctly, to use the crop squared, since the crop is a linear measure not an areal one. Using the actual crop on the 1D2, which is (36/28.7 - Canon's numbers) 1.25 as the "crop", you get a sensor with 12.9 MP. And the pixels aren't exactly the same size on the two - just 99% there.

[Jon]

That wound render the 5D useless then. No way its full frame, but I'm sure there's like 10 other threads about the next 20D........
We're merging them as fast as we can!

[drews578]

Jon,
Thanks for pointing out the MP mistake on my part. I was looking at actual instead of effective pixels. What do you mean by the 99%?

Everyone,
I have not read any where anyone has either credited or discredited my thought process... I know you all have some opinions to share... lets here them?

[Jon]

Jon,
Thanks for pointing out the MP mistake on my part. I was looking at actual instead of effective pixels. What do you mean by the 99%?

Everyone,
I have not read any where anyone has either credited or discredited my thought process... I know you all have some opinions to share... lets here them?
The 1D II has 3504 pixels on the 28.7 mm dimension of the sensor, for 122.09 pixels/mm. The 5D has 4368 pixels on the 35.8 mm long dimension, for 122.01 pixels/mm. More like 99.93% but not exact. It's about 2 pixels difference over the width of the 1D IIs sensor, so it could be rounding as well.

Actually, just the same point has been made on the various 5D vs 1D II threads regarding the lack of advantage of the "crop", all else being equal. A 21 MP FF would remove any advantage of an APS-C body if the APS-C body didn't increase pixel density beyond the 20D's. That's (for marketing reasons alone) not likely to happen. We've got more resolution in the APS-C line than most amateurs need, but megapixels sell cameras more than the important stuff (frame rate, buffer, speed, etc.), so MP will continue increasing until we hit the limits imposed by physics, need it or not.

[drews578]

Jon I certainly agree with you about there being a push for what sells cameras vs. what makes cameras truly better for the masses. :rolleyes:

I for one would rather see increased dynamic range and noise reduction before a MP boost. The two actually go hand in hand since people would be less likely to underexpose to save clipping highlights, therefore not bringing the noise out of lightened shadows. The Fuji S3 would certainly be intriquing for me if I were on the Nikon system.

Does anyone know of a reviewer that looks at dynamic range?

PMA is just around the corner :D Should be interesting to see what Canon does to battle back against the 200.

[FlyingPete]

Jon I certainly agree with you about there being a push for what sells cameras vs. what makes cameras truly better for the masses. :rolleyes:

I for one would rather see increased dynamic range and noise reduction before a MP boost. The two actually go hand in hand since people would be less likely to underexpose to save clipping highlights, therefore not bringing the noise out of lightened shadows. The Fuji S3 would certainly be intriquing for me if I were on the Nikon system.

Does anyone know of a reviewer that looks at dynamic range?

PMA is just around the corner :D Should be interesting to see what Canon does to battle back against the 200.

Improved Dynamic Range is about the only feature that would have me upgrading my 20D at this time.

Come on guys (camera companies that is), how about improving the quality not the quantity of the data for a change (and thanks to Fuji for trying this, shame about the Nikon mount though:( )

[chris clements]

Come on guys (camera companies that is), how about improving the quality not the quantity of the data for a change ( )
Three years ago some of us expected Foveon would be ruling the world by now - what happened? Where's their 8 or 10 mp (x3) chip? Did their technology hit a wall?

[aliflack]

A few people have suggested what a new model would need spec-wise to tempt them to upgrade from a 20D, but I've not seen anyone saying what would tempt them to updgrade from a 300D/350D or potentially even from a film body...

I would think that Canon would design its bodies to not only compete with other manufacturers current and anticpated products, but their own too.

The things that would tempt me upwards now are (in order of importance, highest first):
* Better noise handling
* Bigger/Brighter viewfinder
* Professional build - metal body, weather sealing
* MP of around 10mp (greater than 20D to reflect advances in sensor tech) to help with stock images
* Greater dynamic range
* Customisable (custom functions) and 'full' feature set (Mirror lock up etc)

Price-wise, anything under £1200 would seem reasonable to me...

[puttick]

"Should be interesting to see what Canon does to battle back against the 200"

Easy. Drop the 5D price to within 20% above the Nikon D200. Then it would be no contest.

Nigel

[sapearl]

I would be happy with dropping the 5D to within 25%-30% above the D200. This way I'd have a larger viewfinder a little closer to what I currently use on my medium format equipment, as well as the larger file sizes.... all against the day when the labs stop taking my 120 & 220 roll film.

For us "boomers" who have been in the game a while with our medium format gear, something hefty, comfortable, durable and high quality at a more reasonable price would be VERY attractive.

Nigel, I like the way you think! ;)

Stu Pearl
Cleveland, Ohio

"Should be interesting to see what Canon does to battle back against the 200"

Easy. Drop the 5D price to within 20% above the Nikon D200. Then it would be no contest.

Nigel

[iyt2001]

New rumors

source: http://www.dchome.net/viewthread.php?tid=215741&extra=page%3D1

rumor: Canon 30D to launch in Feb 21

source is a friend working in Canon (not HK).

minor update to 20D....

- 10.1 MP
- 21 point AF
- 7 fps
-1.6x
-DIGIC II
-better noise reduction at IS0 800 or higher
-a little small body design...

[Jon]

New rumors

source: http://www.dchome.net/viewthread.php?tid=215741&extra=page%3D1

rumor: Canon 30D to launch in Feb 21

source is a friend working in Canon (not HK).

minor update to 20D....

- 10.1 MP
- 21 point AF
- 7 fps
-1.6x
-DIGIC II
-better noise reduction at IS0 800 or higher
-a little small body design...
Please note: "source is a friend" is what OP in dchome.net said. For here, it's still one of those "friend of a friend" things that give us all those Urban Legends.

[iyt2001]

2 Jon

Of course, this can be a fake. Just wanted to share the rumor with the community - rumors are the only thing we have until an official announcement. :-/

[blue_max]

I think with the launch of the 5d, there needs to be clear blue water between it and the new 20d. Therefore a tweak to the 20d is highly likely. Hopefully worthwhile improvements to the focus system and image quality.

In reality, there were only minor improvements to the 10d to make the 20d, but people quickly turn their backs on the old model.

I expect to see more and more people bale out of their 20d's in the near future, before the announcement and resultant devaluation of their current model.

The cheaper 'old' models get better and better these days!

Graham

[picard]

cool link about 30D. The web site is in Japanese. I cant read this stuff.

[iyt2001]

2 picard:

this is what makes it even more intriguing :) you don't know what it says but you see ... 30D, 10.1 MP, 7fps, 21 point AF :eek: ... uuuUUUh UBER RUMOR ... what if somebody saw it already? :eek: ... what if one of them already handheld it? :eek: ... and now they are discussing this ... in JAPANISE!!! :evil: God, why did I take Spanish in college?! :lol:

(i'm just having a nice day today :), peace for everybody)

[dpastern]

If that's all Canon's going to do, they're not gonna set the market on fire, just my personal thoughts. Very few people (other than gadget hunters) will upgrade from a 20D to one of this newer model, at least, not given the very subtle improvements. Sure, new users might consider, but then Canon will have to drop the price and be very aggressive (which I don't see them doing).

Others might not have concerns, but I cannot justify the huge price range between the smaller CMOS sensors used in the likes of the 350D/20D and the full frame sensors. Canon is charging a HUGE price premium, not based on manufacturing costs, but purely based on greed and what they think they can get out of consumers. I find that hugely unethical. And I don't really care for the "Canon is in business to make money" comments. Either Canon should drop the full frame digital SLRs, or reduce the costs on both the cut down sensors and full frames.

If the new unit pushes the price down on the current 20D sufficiently, I may consider purchasing a 20D new (or even second hand), but if not, I'll go with a 10D. The ability to use ef-s lenses doesn't really phase me. Canon makes less money from sales of 2nd hand old bodies, than it will from new bodies, and if it doesn't learn quickly, I think it might be in for a rude shock. Canon seems to be hoping that their market dominance will hold, and stave off competitors, well, I got news for Canon. Nikon will continue to eat into Canon's market share until Canon wakes up.

Just my 2.2c worth as a annoyed consumer.

Dave

[EOSAddict]

If that's all Canon's going to do, they're not gonna set the market on fire, just my personal thoughts. Very few people (other than gadget hunters) will upgrade from a 20D to one of this newer model, at least, not given the very subtle improvements. Sure, new users might consider, but then Canon will have to drop the price and be very aggressive (which I don't see them doing).

Others might not have concerns, but I cannot justify the huge price range between the smaller CMOS sensors used in the likes of the 350D/20D and the full frame sensors. Canon is charging a HUGE price premium, not based on manufacturing costs, but purely based on greed and what they think they can get out of consumers. I find that hugely unethical. And I don't really care for the "Canon is in business to make money" comments. Either Canon should drop the full frame digital SLRs, or reduce the costs on both the cut down sensors and full frames.

If the new unit pushes the price down on the current 20D sufficiently, I may consider purchasing a 20D new (or even second hand), but if not, I'll go with a 10D. The ability to use ef-s lenses doesn't really phase me. Canon makes less money from sales of 2nd hand old bodies, than it will from new bodies, and if it doesn't learn quickly, I think it might be in for a rude shock. Canon seems to be hoping that their market dominance will hold, and stave off competitors, well, I got news for Canon. Nikon will continue to eat into Canon's market share until Canon wakes up.

Just my 2.2c worth as a annoyed consumer.

Dave

I'm mot sure how you back this up. Its a well known fact that the yield percentage from FF size sensors is dramatically lower than for APS-C hence (in part) the higher price. Whilst I agree the markup is not purely about that, Canon charge what thr market can stand, they are a commmercial company - hardly unethical ;)

[chris clements]

The 'leak' seems to give a credible specification, and the timing fits in with PMA. Was anyone really expecting a quantum leap?
With a substantial market lead already in this sector and the need to keep clear water to its premium range, the 20D replacement was only ever going to have incremental improvements. Just as with the 30 - 60 -10 - 20 upgrades.

[EOSAddict]

It sounds like a reasonable step up (think back to 10D to 20D, 300 to 350 etc). I hope they don't make the body TOO small (ie not as small as the 350). Hopefully they will keep it in the same price bracket as the 20D too. This spec would certainly tempt me to wait and see to upgrade as a big leap from my 300!

[I Simonius]

2 picard:

this is what makes it even more intriguing :) you don't know what it says but you see ... 30D, 10.1 MP, 7fps, 21 point AF :eek: ... uuuUUUh UBER RUMOR ... what if somebody saw it already? :eek: ... what if one of them already handheld it? :eek: ... and now they are discussing this ... in JAPANISE!!! :evil: God, why did I take Spanish in college?! :lol:

(i'm just having a nice day today :), peace for everybody)

This is waht happened with the 5D - but it was all trooooooooooooooooo!;)

[I Simonius]

Canon makes less money from sales of 2nd hand old bodies, than it will from new bodies, and if it doesn't learn quickly, I think it might be in for a rude shock. Canon seems to be hoping that their market dominance will hold, and stave off competitors, well, I got news for Canon. Nikon will continue to eat into Canon's market share until Canon wakes up.

Dave


hasn't bothered them so far:)

[chris clements]

Since it was in Japanese, this clearly isn't the 'accidental website testing' leak that we've now all come to expect from Canon and Noink ( = 'free advertising' to you and me). I'm not expecting that till early Feb.

[dpastern]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor. I actually do find it unethical. Hiding behind the reason that youre a business doesn't allow you to do things unethically (at least in my eyes it doesn't). This is the major problem with modern business these days.

Dave

[Tom W]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor. I actually do find it unethical. Hiding behind the reason that youre a business doesn't allow you to do things unethically (at least in my eyes it doesn't). This is the major problem with modern business these days.

Dave

Unless Canon is forcing you to purchase anything, there's no ethics issue involved. You either choose to buy it or you don't. It certainly isn't a necessity and there are alternatives.

[Tom W]

Since it was in Japanese, this clearly isn't the 'accidental website testing' leak that we've now all come to expect from Canon and Noink ( = 'free advertising' to you and me). I'm not expecting that till early Feb.

It's quite possible that it's Japan's version of a "DPReview" type web site. Meaning that the speculation there is about as believable. Without knowing the source, it's impossible to pass any reasonable judgement on the rumor.

[chris clements]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor. I actually do find it unethical. Hiding behind the reason that youre a business doesn't allow you to do things unethically (at least in my eyes it doesn't). This is the major problem with modern business these days.

Dave
They don't have to justify 'cos you don't have to buy.
What makes you think Canon wants the 5D to attract anyone away from the 20D?
This is normal practice: just a manufacturer protecting its existing bread and butter ranges and pricing a low-volume premium model at a price it calculates the niche market will accept.

[nitsch]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor. I actually do find it unethical. Hiding behind the reason that youre a business doesn't allow you to do things unethically (at least in my eyes it doesn't). This is the major problem with modern business these days.

Dave

Dave I have to agree with the others, it isn't like Canon are selling life saving drugs here. It's a digital camera aimed at the consumer market, it's luxury goods, I don't see how ethics come into it. The cost of manufacture is only one of many factors Canon will have used when determining the price point of this camera.

[EOSAddict]

unethical would be exploiting child labour to make them (not aware Canon do this !) but selling at a price the market can clearly stand (whether you like it or not) isn't.

[dpastern]

and pricing a low-volume premium model at a price it calculates the niche market will accept.

Exactly my point! Canon is not pricing the products on their value, but is pricing it on what it thinks it can get away with. And that's what I find unethical. Whether I buy the product or not is irrelevant. Either the process is or isn't ethical, irrespective of whether I, or anyone else, purchases the product.

As an aside, I think the 20D is quite well priced (for what it is, and offers).

Again, as I previously stated, others have suggested that the AF performance of the 20D is equivalent to the Elan 7 (sorry, we don't use these marketing names in Australia, so I'm not exactly sure what model it is, but I suspect it's possibly the 500 series???), but not the eos3. I'd also question why Canon cannot include a superior AF module in what is a premium camera. My old and faithful eos1n simply blows my newly purchased D60 out of the water when it comes to AF, and it's very closely matched to the eos 3 (other than the number of AF points of course) in terms of speed and accuracy. The 10D is better than the D60, and the 20D again, is better than the 10D, but from what I've seen, the 20D's AF doesn't match the eos 3's AF. Doesn't that make anyone really wonder???

Or do people just have an abundance of money to throw away without considering the value obtained in new purchases these days? I'm not being thrifty, I'm seriously looking at what these new models offer, and the prices that they are offering them at. And, as a consumer, I feel I have absolutely every right to question Canon's modus operandi on including AF systems that are not as good as what they could, or should be, or overpricing of a model, simply because it has a feature that potential customers want (and playing on the fact that there's no competitor, and so they can price hike as much as they want).

Let's be realistic here - Canon has a monopoly on the full frame CMOS/Digital SLR sensor market, and that monopoly allows them to set whatever quality and price that they want, without fear of competition. This is why monopolies are bad :-) They result in large profits to shareholders, and [generally] poor quality/performance/value to the consumers.

Dave

[Jon]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor. I actually do find it unethical. Hiding behind the reason that youre a business doesn't allow you to do things unethically (at least in my eyes it doesn't). This is the major problem with modern business these days.

Dave
Have you looked at the actual details of the sensors, and supporting electronics? The 5D sensor is over 2.5 x the area of the 20D sensor (do the math - the 20D has 40% of the sensor area of a 5D). And the 5D has buffer (translation, fast RAM) for up to 60 JPEG/17 RAW, compared to the 20D's 20 JPEG/6 RAW. That, coupled with the 12.2 MP vs 8.2 MP, means over 4 times the fast RAM internally. And that's without anything else considered. You don't want it, don't buy it. But don't call it extortionate without some actual data to back up your claim.

OBTW - the Elan 7 (US) is/was the Elan 33 in other places.

[Kickstart]

If you look at the price (body only) between the 20D and the 5D, there's a near 3 grand (Australian difference). No amount of marketing speak can justify a 3 grand price hike for just going from a non full frame sensor to a full frame sensor.

Maybe marketing cannot justify it, but the extra cost can. Similar build cost except for the far more expensive sensor (from what people have said recently, quite likely ten times the cost). Small market means higher costs.

Looking on a UK price compare web site ( http://www.dealtime.co.uk/ ) shows the cheapest 20D at £748 and the 5D at £1886. Large price differnce. However the 20Da is another niche product and the cheapest price for that is £1757, a camera that production cost wise is likely to be exactly the same as the 20D.

All the best

Keith

[nitsch]

Let's be realistic here - Canon has a monopoly on the full frame CMOS/Digital SLR sensor market, and that monopoly allows them to set whatever quality and price that they want, without fear of competition. This is why monopolies are bad :-) They result in large profits to shareholders, and [generally] poor quality/performance/value to the consumers.

Dave

That is the root of it, until Nikon pull their finger out and create a competitive marketplace Canon can do what they like. Canon have succesfully manouvered themselves into a dominant position in this market and will leverage that for maximum profit for as long as they can. It's still not unethical though!

Anyway lets get back on the topic of the rumour mill... ;)

[Citizensmith]

unethical would be exploiting child labour to make them (not aware Canon do this !)

If they did then maybe the prices would drop and I could afford a 24-105. Yay child labor. :)

[shiato storm]

My old and faithful eos1n simply blows my newly purchased D60 out of the water when it comes to AF, and it's very closely matched to the eos 3 (other than the number of AF points of course) in terms of speed and accuracy. The 10D is better than the D60, and the 20D again, is better than the 10D, but from what I've seen, the 20D's AF doesn't match the eos 3's AF. Doesn't that make anyone really wonder???

...And, as a consumer, I feel I have absolutely every right to question Canon's modus operandi on including AF systems that are not as good as what they could, or should be.

i agree on the AF points and 20D ability. I took mine back cause AF was attrociously poor. I mean really poor. and after going through 5 bodys in the shop because each had dust on the sensor i tried I was even more upset the af didn't do anything for the camera. a poor effort on canon's part that. so, sticking with the reliable 1N until I find something better...the 'next' canon camera better do it right. i guess it may have a similar af grouping as the 5D, noise control no doubt will be good as it was on the 20D and all the rest of it but if the thing can't even focus as well as a comparitive film model then i'm afraid it doesn't sound like its worth it to me...

[dpastern]

Have you looked at the actual details of the sensors, and supporting electronics? The 5D sensor is over 2.5 x the area of the 20D sensor (do the math - the 20D has 40% of the sensor area of a 5D). And the 5D has buffer (translation, fast RAM) for up to 60 JPEG/17 RAW, compared to the 20D's 20 JPEG/6 RAW. That, coupled with the 12.2 MP vs 8.2 MP, means over 4 times the fast RAM internally. And that's without anything else considered. You don't want it, don't buy it. But don't call it extortionate without some actual data to back up your claim

I seemed to have touched some raw nerves here. OK, a few things about me. I speak my mind. And I will not be bullied into "keeping quiet" when I feel I have a very valid point.

Now - yes, I have considered the extra area of the CMOS sensor. No, I don't know what the manufacturing costs of the CMOS sensor for the 20D are, but I imagine that they're not that expensive. Canon would never tell me their cost price if I asked them. So, as a consumer, that makes it rather hard for me to tell if Canon is artificially knocking the price up to make a nice profit. I think I can safely deduce a few things - the body price of a 20D is 2k in Australia. The sensor cost would only be (at most) 35% of this cost, more than likely lower. If I was to have a guess then, the retail cost of the sensor component would be around au $700. Note that I said retail. Cost price to Canon would be between 30-50% of this. Let's average it out, and say it's 40%. That would mean the cost price is around $280. Now, factor in the cost price increase between the 20D sensor and the 5D full frame sensor (around 2.5x), and that's a cost price estimate for the 5D's sensor of au $700. An increase of $420. Now, considering the cost price between the 20D and 5D is 3k, that's a $2500 profit. None of the buffer/RAM componetry is going to amount to 2.5k. So, I think I can very safely say that Canon is artificially inflating the price.

You still haven't argued my case on the 20D's AF being inferior (or at the least, on par) to a ten year old Camera (eos1n) Jon. Also, whether or not Canon has a competitor making full frame sensors, doesn't make it ethically right in my eyes to bump the price up beyond what it's real value is worth.

Anyways, back onto the argument - if the rumours of the updated 20D are correct, they don't offer much value in my eyes of updating from a 20D to the newer model...

Dave

[Tom W]

Exactly my point! Canon is not pricing the products on their value, but is pricing it on what it thinks it can get away with. And that's what I find unethical. Whether I buy the product or not is irrelevant. Either the process is or isn't ethical, irrespective of whether I, or anyone else, purchases the product.


Of course they try to get maximum value, just as one tries to get maximum pay for their work, or the highest price when they sell a house. It's not unethical - it's common sense, and it's how free markets operate.

[Tom W]

Let's be realistic here - Canon has a monopoly on the full frame CMOS/Digital SLR sensor market, and that monopoly allows them to set whatever quality and price that they want, without fear of competition. This is why monopolies are bad :-) They result in large profits to shareholders, and [generally] poor quality/performance/value to the consumers.

Dave

There is no monopoly - anybody can enter the full-frame market if the see the potential for profit. It's an open market in which others presently do not choose to enter. The fact that Nikon hasn't treaded into full-frame and Kodak has gotten out should be in indicator that there isn't a great deal of profit lurking in the full-frame market at this time.

Also, consider this: if it's such a great deal for shareholders, then by all means skip buying a camera and buy some shares of Canon stock.

BTW, I haven't seen the poor performance or poor quality in any of my Canon goods. Nor my Sigma nor Tamron for that matter. Value has been good as well in terms of what I get for my hard-earned money. Elsewise, I'd not have bought what I've bought.

Value varies in terms of individual preferences, but the market determines price, as it always does. And the overall average of individual preferences is what makes up the overall market.

[martook]

If they did then maybe the prices would drop and I could afford a 24-105. Yay child labor. :)

Well, I don't think kids cares enough about quality issues, so I'm not sure it's such a good idea after all... :p


Anyway, Canon, please make the new camera either:
* 8-10mp full frame (50D, since it's like a baby 5D...) priced as 20D
* 8-10mp 1.3x crop (30D, as in 1.3x...) priced as 20D
or
* 10-12mp 1.6x crop (whatever.)
With much better dynamic range than 20D, faster and better AF than 20D, bigger and brighter VF than 20D, a proper battery grip, large screen, RGB histogram, a good focus screen (split prism and microprism ring), ISO level in the bloody VF, SPOT METERING, and other things I'm missing on the 20D. Please contact me for a complete list.

So, Canon, if you want more money from me (already stopped using your lenses! more or less anyway...), one of the above cameras will have to be released. Or you could just give me a 5D, that would do just fine as well.


:)

[tdaugharty]

Sqash the Nikon D200 I say. Compariable specs for a little less $$. The shots from the D200 Nikon using ED glass are pretty darn impresive. The skin tones and overall contrast are really nice with the Nikon. I know with my 20D and L-UD/SD glass I'm still stuck in the PP loop to achieve flawless results. I know picky but if the Nikon can do it so can Canon.

BTW - Do you think it's CCD vs CMOS ;)

[ACDCROCKS]

Less noise anyone ? ;)

[Salleke]

New rumors

source: http://www.dchome.net/viewthread.php?tid=215741&extra=page%3D1

rumor: Canon 30D to launch in Feb 21

source is a friend working in Canon (not HK).

minor update to 20D....

- 10.1 MP
- 21 point AF
- 7 fps
-1.6x
-DIGIC II
-better noise reduction at IS0 800 or higher
-a little small body design...

Does anybody now if they put Picture Styles and a bigger LCD in it too?

[goatee]

snip. . .
Now, factor in the cost price increase between the 20D sensor and the 5D full frame sensor (around 2.5x), and that's a cost price estimate for the 5D's sensor of au $700. An increase of $420. Now, considering the cost price between the 20D and 5D is 3k, that's a $2500 profit. None of the buffer/RAM componetry is going to amount to 2.5k. So, I think I can very safely say that Canon is artificially inflating the price.
Dave

Hi there,
you seem to have missed a vital piece of the jigsaw. The sensor for the 5D will not just be 2.5X the price because it's 2.5X the area.


The volume of 5D sensors produced is much lower than for 20D sensors - thus even if they were the same size, they would still be an awful lot more expensive.
As sensors grow in size, manufacturing tolerances mean that much higher percentages are defective - much in the same way as in the early days of LCD monitors, etc, the price squared, if the area doubled - this is also not helped by the much lower volumes produced.I'm not saying that Canon is selling the 5D for the lowest price it can - but at the same time, I guess they're testing to see how much the FF sensor is to the prosumer market. If there's enough take up, maybe they'll drop the 1.6X crop - resulting in much higher volumes being produced which will push the price down.

Regardless, all their prices over time are reducing - the D30 was US $3000 (or was it more?) when it came out. Assuming 4% inflation a year since 2000 when it came out, that would put it at US $3,500 today - less than the price of the 5D.

I'd love to be able to get a 20D for US $600 here in the UK - it's not going to happen for another couple of years by buying one secondhand, but prices do come down (by which point, the 5D will be around $1000 secondhand).

Finally - if you sell your house, is it unethical to put it on the market, and want to get the best price you can get? You may not think it's worth as much, but it's just how free market economics work - the only difference is that it's not Joe Public looking after his family, but Canon looking after its family (aka the shareholders).

[I Simonius]

Less noise anyone ? ;)

........from someone with the sig *ACDCROCKS!

love it
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[chris clements]

Exactly my point! Canon is not pricing the products on their value, but is pricing it on what it thinks it can get away with.

That's how all commerce/trade works. Since when has ANYTHING been priced on what it costs to produce? When you make a new widget you set the highest price you think the target market will bear.

Have you forgotten the first reviews of the 5D? To a man, every one was stunned at how LOW Canon had pitched the price point. It broke FF out of the "serious professional/press" niche (where cost has little influence) and fuelled these debates amongst us plebs. Which (rightly, I believe) have de-bunked the mystique of FF. Or at least questioned it.

[shiato storm]

I suspect any day now we can expect some 'accidents' on the canon website where someone nabs a screen shot of the next model to be released. possibly on an italian site maybe or they take off the 'new' tags on the US one getting ready for the 'new'-er one...
they do this every time. nikon too. just wait, you'll see

[zacker]

the question is... How much does canon expect us to pay for a camera withou us feeling stupid for spending so much$$$$ on it? seriously, its a camera, 99% of the people I know,,, Who are into photography, wont spend any $$$ on a good camera, thyed rather eat and pay for a house and car... its disturbing to me when i see the prices of some of the stuff we buy. Hey, id love a 5D and as much "L" glass as i can get my hands on, but it aint gonna happen, not while i still have a mortgage and credit card bills.. its getting more and more expensive to live in CT. and it dont make any sense to go anywhere else, its bad all over.
-zacker-

[Michaelmjc]

I agree completely, when they are charging 2500+ US dollars for a new model, thatsd just ridiculous. I guess there are enough people who will buy, which makes it worth while.. But just think of how many more they could sell if it was cheaper. With the new ID MK IIN, what'd they do, make a bigger screen, added a faster buffer, what else? Then they charge an arm and a leg for it, the original ID MK II is exactly the same minus those features... But do you really need those features? A bigger LCD? Just put the pics on your computer and look at em.. I dunno I personally think its ridiculous, the prices just keep going up.
You know it's gone to far when there are cameras selling for the price of a small car.

[I Simonius]

Exactly my point! Canon is not pricing the products on their value, but is pricing it on what it thinks it can get away with. And that's what I find unethical.

unethical? are you serious - I guess you must be.
I can only suggest you apply te same criteria to every single thing you buy and ask whether perhaps you mightn't be better off becoming a hermit!
:rolleyes:

[Michaelmjc]

unethical? are you serious - I guess you must be.
I can only suggest you apply te same criteria to every single thing you buy and ask whether perhaps you mightn't be better off becoming a hermit!
:rolleyes:

Very true, every company does this.. They price things at whatever they want, they know if people want it bad enough, they'll save up and fork it over. And its true, becasue people do it. A lamborghini, you really think that is worth over 100,000 dollars? It's not, they just price it that high cause they can.

[Citizensmith]

And the same thing happens on more of a 'micro' scale. Look at somewhere like ebay. Items there sell for whatever the market will bear and have no relation to the costs incurred by the seller.

[hmhm]

I dunno I personally think its ridiculous, the prices just keep going up.

In 1995, the 1.3x 6MP Kodak DCS 460 was $12000:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Kodak/kodak_dcs460.asp

In 1998, the 1.3x 6MP Kodak DCS560 was $7500:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Kodak/kodak_dcs560.asp

In 1999, the 1.6x 3MP Canon D30 was $3000:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/page2.asp

Seems like prices keep going down.
-harry

[chris clements]

But just think of how many more they could sell if it was cheaper.
and if this were to happen, these extra sales would be at the expense of what?
350 and 20 sales, of course.
The whole point is that the 5D is a low-volume model that does not fall into Canon's existing entry or prosumer ranges. Pricing is a key part of Canon's strategy to keep it that way.

[In2Photos]

I think it is safe to say that some things are relative. The "value", "worth", "cost", etc. are all relative to each individual. If I were a millionaire then the 1DsMKII would be "cheap" or shall we say "inexpensive". But, since I am not a millionaire then that camera is "expensive", hence I purchased the XT.

The bootom line is that Canon has a full line of cameras for any and every stage of photography. You choose the one that fits your needs. No ehtics involved here.

As far as the 20D replacement I find it odd that people believe the purpose of changing the 20D is to get current 20D owners to upgrade. That is not Canon's intentions at all. The changes have been made to make them stay competitive in the photography industry and to make more money. They aren't singling anyone out for the purchase of this camera. They are trying to meet the needs of the masses.

[chris clements]

I find it odd that people believe the purpose of changing the 20D is to get current 20D owners to upgrade.
Amen to that.
We avid snappers sometimes forget we're in the minority. The 'normal' 20D owner has 2.4 lenses and only takes his camera out of the bag for 3 birthdays, 2 vacations and one school sportsday each year. He won't be changing his camera until 2009.

[zacker]

i remember going into a chevy dealership in about 1976 or 77.. there was a Camaro in the showroom, sticker price? $13,000.00. My oldest brother graduated in 1971 from High School, got a job at the local super market..Stop and Shop. He bought a brand spankin new, right off the lot, Chevy Chevelle, loaded SS model with the 454 CI engin, 4 speed tranny, posi rear end, this car was loaded... Cant do that today. And just try to buy a new Harley.. or a used one for that matter, its rediculas, everything is going up except for our pay scale... !!! The fact of the matter is, these big companies are marking everything with sucvh a huge mark up, because people still run out and buy, its a problem with us, we need the biggest, latest and greatist there is.
-zacker-
-zacker-

[Citizensmith]

its a problem with us, we need the biggest, latest and greatist there is.

And there are half a dozen people competing to give us the credit to buy that new item. Whether or not we can actually afford the extra debt and interest associated. Capitalism at its worst.

[zacker]

yeah, is it any wonder why now we HAVE to pay twice the "minimum" payment for credit cards? Whats next, twice the amount on mortgages too? I read somewhere that home foreclosures are at an all time high because with the percentage rates being so low and banks so quick to give out $$$, allot of people bought way to much house and now they cant afford it.
They oughtta teach money mananement in high school as a required course! Who needs Gym class at 17 years old anyways?
-zacker-

[EOSAddict]

So, about that 30D then..... ;)

[ScottE]

unethical? are you serious - I guess you must be.
I can only suggest you apply te same criteria to every single thing you buy and ask whether perhaps you mightn't be better off becoming a hermit!
:rolleyes:
He must be the same guy who when he is offered a job asks to be paid less because he is not worth that much. Most people would take the highest wage they can get for their work.

Corporations are no different when they sell a product. Profit is measured as volume time mark up. With a relatively low volume product like a DSLR, the mark up has to be high to justify the cost of production. Higher volume, low quality P&S cameras can be sold for less mark up because of the high volume. You can be sure that the Canon marketing people have done all the market research possible when they set the price. That's not ethics, it free enterprise. The laws of supply and demand will eventually regulate the price, not the cost of production.

[zacker]

So, about that 30D then..... ;)


lol... what about it? do you think Canon will make it?? whay hasnt there been any discussion on it here yet?
-zacker-

[Tom W]

yeah, is it any wonder why now we HAVE to pay twice the "minimum" payment for credit cards? Whats next, twice the amount on mortgages too? I read somewhere that home foreclosures are at an all time high because with the percentage rates being so low and banks so quick to give out $$$, allot of people bought way to much house and now they cant afford it.
They oughtta teach money mananement in high school as a required course! Who needs Gym class at 17 years old anyways?
-zacker-

What is this "minimum payment" you speak of? :)

Really, paying the minimum under the old rules resulted in a situation where, even if a person quit using the credit card now, the average credit card user would take several years to pay off the balance of their credit card. The new rules don't require additional interest, but they do require a higher minimum to pay down the balance quicker. Actually, in the long run, the amount of interest paid (if the rate remains unchanged) will be considerably less under the new rules, since the balance due will be reduced quicker.

As for mortgages, they are closed-end contracts that generally cannot be changed unilaterally. Exceptions occur with adjustable-rate mortgages, but they still adhere to time-based amortization tables. Credit cards are open-ended - there are a number of changes that the issuer/lender can make unilaterally. Except for the minimum payment, there is nothing on a credit card that really resembles an amortization table.

Frankly, while emergency situations do arise, it's most often irresponsible spending and use of credit cards that gets someone into a situation where a change in the minimum payment presents a serious problem. Ideally, one should be paying off the total balance due monthly, so as to avoid all interest charges. Of course, most of us live somewhere in between, but it pays to keep that balance as low as possible.

Unfortunately, they don't teach money management in most high schools, let alone the basics of economics. Lenders love to advertize the monthly payment as the most important number that a customer should be concerned with. It's not.

Caveat Emptor ;)

[Tom W]

lol... what about it? do you think Canon will make it?? whay hasnt there been any discussion on it here yet?
-zacker-

I think that it's established that there is likely to be a successor to the 20D - now we're just discussing ways to finance it. :D

[shiato storm]

get someone else to pay for it?!

[zacker]

yes Tom aint it beautifull? most people i know could barley make the original minimum.. now what? i still think its not right. if the banks are so quick to give out money, let the bastards wait to get it back! most americans live well beyond their means..it is the NEW american way... its the only way most can have the "latest and Greatest" without it. Which brings me to another point. We, as a country put so much empithis on what we have, be it a home, car, toys (yes even cameras as it is very evident here at POTN) that we cant help but make these large purchases. Im not saying anyone but the advertisers are at fault. Look at TV.. they might as well just come right out and say it, "Drive a Hummer, get a Hummer" or Buy this car, she'll go down far" or "Wear our clothes and your (male genitailia) will grow" its just so crazy, i cant get over the fact that im nothing without $100 cologne, $200.00 sneakers, a $7000.00 camera and a million dollar home.. Im nothing NOTHING i tells ya!:)
its horrible!
(He who dies with the most (expensive) toys wins)
-zacker-

[Citizensmith]

its just so crazy, i cant get over the fact that im nothing without $100 cologne, $200.00 sneakers, a $7000.00 camera and a million dollar home.. Im nothing NOTHING i tells ya!:)
its horrible!
(He who dies with the most (expensive) toys wins)
-zacker-

I use $4 deodrant, currently wearing $40 boots, have a $700 camera and a $300,000 home which of course I only own a part of. I'm happy with that, I have enough to not feel envious and always skip the commercials (I do have a DVR but it only costs $4 a month). I'm also happy enough with my genitalia not to need to drive a hummer. The advertising only work it you let it. I'm not saying I'm not interested in having the latest geek toys, just that I'll wait until they are free after rebate. :)

[Jon]

Can we bring this back to the original topic - speculation about what Canon may be planning to release in the not-so-distant future? It may be equally unproductive, but this is a photography forum, not an economics forum. And please review what's already been posted (all 250+ posts) so you don't repeat yourself!

[sapearl]

You hit that nail on the head. Look at the market for Hasselblads - and I'm talking about the PRE digital stuff: All hand made, low volume, specialty niche equipment. Certainly not like a Ford/Chevy/Canon Rebel coming off the assembly line. The prices of new gear was astronomical compared to what I'm seeing here.

The only way I was able to afford my initial Hassy investment was by patiently perusing the used market for the nicest, most reasonably priced items I could find. I took my time. And that's the problem when you're first out of the gate and always obsessed with the latest greatest upgrades - you rush to be the first kid on the block to have the new stuff and you'll pay a premium. That's what EVERY corporation counts on.

And now you should see what Hasselblad/Imacon wants for their new 39MP digital back, which isn't even a FF chip - something in the neighborhood of $42,000. Some will rush right out to buy it; nobody I know. The 5D is a real bargain when viewed in that context.

I'll get my 5D eventually, but I'll wait until after PMA and hope for the best. My commercial lab will still process my 220 rolls for at least the next 18 months, so I have a little bit of time. :rolleyes: Ah, the joy of anticipation......

Stu Pearl


Corporations are no different when they sell a product. Profit is measured as volume time mark up. With a relatively low volume product like a DSLR, the mark up has to be high to justify the cost of production. Higher volume, low quality P&S cameras can be sold for less mark up because of the high volume. You can be sure that the Canon marketing people have done all the market research possible when they set the price. That's not ethics, it free enterprise. The laws of supply and demand will eventually regulate the price, not the cost of production.

[Citizensmith]

Can we bring this back to the original topic - speculation about what Canon may be planning to release in the not-so-distant future? It may be equally unproductive, but this is a photography forum, not an economics forum. And please review what's already been posted (all 250+ posts) so you don't repeat yourself!

See there you go, you want us to talk about the rumoured 30D so we get all excited and go buy one whether or not we can afford it. You are just part of the system!!! :)

Anyway, yeah sorry I've not exactly helped keep this on track. Can someone find a another nice new 30D link we can all get excited about?

[Kickstart]

That would mean the cost price is around $280. Now, factor in the cost price increase between the 20D sensor and the 5D full frame sensor (around 2.5x), and that's a cost price estimate for the 5D's sensor of au $700.

From another web site "Canon manufactures its sensors from 8 inch wafers (200mm dia). One 8 inch wafer yields 20 FF sensors(if there are no defects) but presently yields are at 25 %. Seventy two 1.6x (22.7x15.1mm) sensors can be made from one 8 inch silicon wafer. Yields for 1.6x sensors per silicon wafer are at 70+ %. So therefore, with each LSI batch, there are about 5 usable FF sensors for every 50 1.6x sensors.. From that it looks like the cost of a FF sensor is around 10 times that of 1.6 crop sensors. That would explain the extra costs on your figures.

However I would expect the extra costs to be somewhat lower than that, but one area where they will cost more is due to far lower volumes. If they sold the 5D for, say, 20% more than the 20D as its replacement then they would loose a lot of sales. Lower volumes would reduce their profits, or they would have to ramp the prices up to keep their margins.

As such I don't see the 5D being a viable replacement for the 20D, which means it has to go as a supplementory model, which reduces the volume of sales even more and so puts up prices.

All the best

Keith

[dpastern]

unethical? are you serious - I guess you must be.
I can only suggest you apply te same criteria to every single thing you buy and ask whether perhaps you mightn't be better off becoming a hermit!
:rolleyes:

Yes, I'm absolutely serious. And yes, I do apply the same criteria to everything that I consider purchasing. If it's a markéd rippoff then I don't buy it. If there's unethical practices from the manufacturer, then I don't buy it. As an example Apple Computers and their iPod minis...shameful, yet no government consumer protection watchdog has the balls to take Apple on and actually punish them for selling a sub standard product that Apple has knowingly sold with faults and issues. And yes, I'll go out of my way to be very pro-active in not recommending such manufacturer's products. Word of mouth goes a long way.

As to being a hermit, I prefer to be on my own, or have the company of nature. Man himself as a species is pretty despicable. But anyways, this has digressed to become an off topic post.

Dave

[dpastern]

He must be the same guy who when he is offered a job asks to be paid less because he is not worth that much. Most people would take the highest wage they can get for their work.

If you wish to throw an insult at me, keep it private. Of course it seems that moderators seem to throw a blind eye to insultiing posts from regulars, when they're directed at "newbies". I'm liking these forums far less than a few days ago.

Dave

[EOSAddict]

Dave,

no offence intended here, but you are not doing yourself any favours either..

[tim]

Plus mod's might not read an entire 20 page thread. If you find a post offensive use the little red triangle underneath someone's name to alert the mod team.

[Tom W]

If you wish to throw an insult at me, keep it private. Of course it seems that moderators seem to throw a blind eye to insultiing posts from regulars, when they're directed at "newbies". I'm liking these forums far less than a few days ago.

Dave

I don't believe that he meant it as an insult. Rather, he was illustrating that just as you want the highest pay for your work, Canon wants to maximize their profits. Nothing sinister about it that I can see.

[Tom W]

Yes, I'm absolutely serious. And yes, I do apply the same criteria to everything that I consider purchasing. If it's a markéd rippoff then I don't buy it. If there's unethical practices from the manufacturer, then I don't buy it. As an example Apple Computers and their iPod minis...shameful, yet no government consumer protection watchdog has the balls to take Apple on and actually punish them for selling a sub standard product that Apple has knowingly sold with faults and issues. And yes, I'll go out of my way to be very pro-active in not recommending such manufacturer's products. Word of mouth goes a long way.

I can't speak for the Austrailian government, but I'd not want my government dictating the price of anything, and especially something as mundane and unessential as an I-Pod. Apple can charge what the want. If it's more than I'm willing to pay (which it is), then I won't buy it. Apparently, enough people are willing enough to make the purchase. Otherwise, the price would fall until such time as Apple is either satisfied with the level of income with that product line, or they decide to venture elsewhere to earn a profit.

As to being a hermit, I prefer to be on my own, or have the company of nature. Man himself as a species is pretty despicable. But anyways, this has digressed to become an off topic post.

Dave

As a member of the human race, I could take that as an insult. ;)

[Citizensmith]

As a member of the human race, I could take that as an insult. ;)

And thanks to the US's current president any insulting posts made under a false name are illegal. Your typical forum flame war seems to be pleasantly absent from here. But if one does start we can get any US posters using dumb pseudonyms like "Citizensmith" arrested and trying not to drop the soap while they serve time. :)

So just for the record, my name is Marcus and I think all y'all are really nice folks.

[Tom W]

And thanks to the US's current president any insulting posts made under a false name are illegal. Your typical forum flame war seems to be pleasantly absent from here. But if one does start we can get any US posters using dumb pseudonyms like "Citizensmith" arrested and trying not to drop the soap while they serve time. :)

Where on earth did that come from?

So just for the record, my name is Marcus and I think all y'all are really nice folks.

Duly noted. :)

And to get back on topic:

It won't be a 30D, it'll be a 50D or a 25D or something like that.
1.6X 10-11 mpx DSLR
5+ frames/second
All the 5D's improvements including the more advanced AF system, larger LCD, picture styles, spot metering, etc.
List at $1400-1500 US.

[defordphoto]

I'd suggest redirecting this thread back on-course as it is about two-seconds away from being padlocked.

[I Simonius]

Yes, I'm absolutely serious. And yes, I do apply the same criteria to everything that I consider purchasing. If it's a markéd rippoff then I don't buy it. If there's unethical practices from the manufacturer, then I don't buy it. As an example Apple Computers and their iPod minis...shameful, yet no government consumer protection watchdog has the balls to take Apple on and actually punish them for selling a sub standard product that Apple has knowingly sold with faults and issues. And yes, I'll go out of my way to be very pro-active in not recommending such manufacturer's products. Word of mouth goes a long way.

As to being a hermit, I prefer to be on my own, or have the company of nature. Man himself as a species is pretty despicable. But anyways, this has digressed to become an off topic post.

Dave


I know what you mean - it can really get to you sometimes but the fact it these guys sell this stuff and we can choose to buy it or not

I wouldn't call it unethical unless they are investing in something unethical

I don't think it's unethical to get as much as you can for your product, that is simply the rule of demand and supply

[ACDCROCKS]

what we have to look at is how much do they do when they upgraded before

[I Simonius]

I'd suggest redirecting this thread back on-course as it is about two-seconds away from being padlocked.


right on!

anyway as we were saying, ( ahem , re adjusts seating position, brushes non existant fluff off trousers, looks briefly up and to the left, then to the right as eyes betray refocussing of mind to combine imagination with reality...)


there's not much wrong with the 20D that the obvious larger LCD and new pixel count won't improve

The real question I think is whether they can pull the cat out of the bag and give 20D owners a reason to upgrade, otherwise it's just to keep one ahead of Nikon for new purchasers;)

[I Simonius]

what we have to look at is how much do they do when they upgraded before

Go on then...:D

[ACDCROCKS]

Go on then...:D
I have no clue to what is Canon's hostory. I'm a little too new to canon, But Nikons history of producing new casmers put me to sleep ;). Look at the difference between the Mark II and Mark 1. Theres more MP etc.