Q&A Session with Gmen: Sports Photography

[DwightMcCann]

For sale, no.

I provide my print sales through http://www.photobox.co.uk/ - they take a small commission, but the amount of time and energy that their service saves me means that I can maximise my customer service.

A punter can order prints via PhotoBox, pay by credit/debit card and they generally receive them through their door the following morning... the quality and packaging is also excellent. As long as I have a balance of more than £50 in my credit account, I can transfer it into my business account on a monthly basis.

Of course, I still offer the 'old-fashioned fill in an order-form and pay by cheque option' for those punters that don't like to use the net.

I have considered offering a 'custom inkjet print' service and investing in a large format, high-end printer... but, at this moment in time, I can't justify the expense in terms of the potential demand - it's a marketing issue as well I suppose! ;)

On another note, since I started to use PhotoBox my average monthly print sales have more than trebled, so it looks like it was a reasonably wise move.

I hope that answers your question!

---- Gavin

Yes! I spent the weekend battling the assembly and installation of an Epson 7800 Pro Stylus [see http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=116610 for a few details] and a little R220 for printing CDs and DVDs. Using a service is significantly cheaper and the quality is generally excellent so if I were shooting club sports or kid's teams I would go that route, too ... I probably should have done that when shooting Women's Tennis, sigh. Anyway, I realize that it would take a very long time to pay for the printer if I didn't subsidize it via my casino work [I didn't buy it until I had the money] even though I will also use it for my winery client as well. Thanks again for this superb thread ... it will take some revisiting. [I still need help about my Magic Arm and will get a note in here at some point, sigh.]

[DwightMcCann]

Gavin, I went with the Gitzo but got the 1568 as I am only 5' 10" and don't need the extra height from the extra extension.

[Croasdail]

By the way, there is a feature on Bob Martin in the November Practical Photography.... just FYI.

[gmen]

...decisions - decisions...It's all about the good old work-life balance, life's too short not to try to get that bit right ;) I'm sure we'll all agree on that one.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Yes! I spent the weekend battling the assembly and installation of an Epson 7800 Pro Stylus [see http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=116610 for a few details] and a little R220 for printing CDs and DVDs. The 7800 looks like a beautiful piece of kit... you've got me reaching for the business cheque book again :lol: "Note to self: Must resist, must resist!"...

I'd be interested to hear your hands-on review of the printer once you're fully up and running.

---- Gavin

[Croasdail]

Hey Gavin, just wanted to thank you for all your help... it has been invaluable. I have learned a ton from you over the past 6 months. It has really helped my skills and consistancy to improve. As validation, the game I shot on saturday that I passed on approaching the local news guy at the end, well, I just got a call from the Sports Information department of that school asking if they could refer me to a regional newspaper who is doing a feature on one of their players. He said he has put me on the top of his list as a source for images for media requests that come in. Six months ago...no way. I would get one or two "good shots", now I get a few of each player. So thanks.... the stuff you spend the time on putting in here really does pay off. Just letting you know. Cheers.

[gmen]

Hey Gavin, just wanted to thank you for all your help... it has been invaluable. I have learned a ton from you over the past 6 months. It has really helped my skills and consistancy to improve. As validation, the game I shot on saturday that I passed on approaching the local news guy at the end, well, I just got a call from the Sports Information department of that school asking if they could refer me to a regional newspaper who is doing a feature on one of their players. He said he has put me on the top of his list as a source for images for media requests that come in. Six months ago...no way. I would get one or two "good shots", now I get a few of each player. So thanks.... the stuff you spend the time on putting in here really does pay off. Just letting you know. Cheers.Hi Mark!

I really can't take any credit for your ongoing success :o You take excellent pictures and you've obviously got very high standards and the drive to improve.

OK, so I might throw a few ideas around here and there but as long as a photographer has got a solid grip on the basics and an understanding of the subject matter they are shooting (in this case the rules/pattern of play of the sport), then it's down to self-development through practice. It's the self-discipline of always applying what you learned from your last shoot to the next one - that sounds easy, but when there's a deadline or other pressures, it can take some doing.

The next leap for all of us is to become know for our own style and to develop that style. That's the really hard part.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just for info, there has been an interesting discussion going on in 'Cornering The Pros' regarding 'Getting access to college sports' - it might make for some good reading matter:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=119372&page=1

---- Gavin

[grego]

Hey Gavin,

I will look to buy another body to my setup probably. I can't afford a 1D Mark II, which would solve basically all my problems, but there are solutations that will work.

I'm considering the 20D and I'm liking more of what I research about the 1D Mark I.

Now, as you might know, I'm on UCLA's newspaper staff so I have that pj background. I have a 10D currently and for sports, I usually can get away with things with my 70-200 IS, the crop factor helping. Although I do look to purchase Sigma's 120-300 2.8 to get myself a 2.8 at the 300 focal length. I do need to purchase a 1.4 tc though.

And I do want to add the 16-35 2.8 as really the only other lens realisticly that I should purchase besides a long tele. I think that would be the next thing I purchase for my photo journalism stuff. But I could push that back and go for something else.

What would you suggest for the second body. I like covering futbol/soccer and that's the majority of what I have done so far at UCLA in my first quarter(I'll post some of the NCAA FInal Four championship week later this week from a few weeks ago).

This secondary body would become the primary one replacing the 10D I have. Now I'm not sure weighing the options. The resolution isn't too big a deal, but low light situations occur during the night games and basketball games that aren't the best. And that's one of the advantages the 20D has and of course the resolution when you want to crop tighter.

What would you suggest on this issue?

[gmen]

Hey Gavin,

I will look to buy another body to my setup probably. I can't afford a 1D Mark II, which would solve basically all my problems, but there are solutations that will work.

I'm considering the 20D and I'm liking more of what I research about the 1D Mark I.

Now, as you might know, I'm on UCLA's newspaper staff so I have that pj background. I have a 10D currently and for sports, I usually can get away with things with my 70-200 IS, the crop factor helping. Although I do look to purchase Sigma's 120-300 2.8 to get myself a 2.8 at the 300 focal length. I do need to purchase a 1.4 tc though.

And I do want to add the 16-35 2.8 as really the only other lens realisticly that I should purchase besides a long tele. I think that would be the next thing I purchase for my photo journalism stuff. But I could push that back and go for something else.

What would you suggest for the second body. I like covering futbol/soccer and that's the majority of what I have done so far at UCLA in my first quarter(I'll post some of the NCAA FInal Four championship week later this week from a few weeks ago).

This secondary body would become the primary one replacing the 10D I have. Now I'm not sure weighing the options. The resolution isn't too big a deal, but low light situations occur during the night games and basketball games that aren't the best. And that's one of the advantages the 20D has and of course the resolution when you want to crop tighter.

What would you suggest on this issue?Hi Grego,

The original 1D is a superb piece of kit as you are already aware. It more than makes up for it's 'lack' of resolution (compared to current models) by providing beautiful files straight out of the camera which require the absolute minimum of post-processing. I have printed (uncropped) files up to A3 size with great results.

Add to that the fast burst speed, weather-proofing, general robustness, super fast AF system, a multitude of custom functions, and great handling characteristics, and the 1D is a fine choice.

However... the camera's performance at high ISO is poor. The files clean up quite well with noise reduction software but always at the cost of lost detail.

So, other factors will come into play when you make your decision. If the vast majority of your work is for a newspaper then the 1D images will be fine. Even if you have to crop the images slightly, you'll still have enough resolution to provide suitable files for newspaper repro. Also the noise will not be a big issue either, bearing in mind that you may need to use high ISO for your indoor and night shooting.

Also, if you're going to invest in a 16-35mm lens, then the 1.3x crop factor on the 1D will help you achieve a wider view than a 1.6x crop body. Again, the resolution may not be an issue for reportage style shooting.

On the other hand, if you find yourself making prints for clients (and/or contributing to glossy magazines), then the noise/resolution limitations of the 1D may be a limiting factor.

The 20D by all accounts is a super camera. You only need to look at the results from that camera in the sports forum - there are many excellent examples of hoops and night football taken on the 20D. The AF is pretty good and the high ISO performance looks to be on a par with the 1D MkII.

Also, as you mentioned, the extra resolution on the 20D will allow you some more cropping flexibility if you're not filling the frame. This can be useful for 'news' grab shots when you've got to make the shot but you're not as close to the action as you'd like to be - e.g. when the winning goal is at the opposite end of the pitch :lol:

It's a tough call. I love my 1D - but I don't pull it out of the bag very often in low light, except to use with flash.

I won't make an overall recommendation - but I hope these thoughts help your decision making process a little.

---- Gavin

[grego]

Thanks Gavin. It does help a little.

Idealy, it would be good to have with the 20D, but I'm stuck with my 10D for now. And since I haven't really considered it professionally, I'm not going to make as huge of a jump.

I have picked up a job(although it seems very slow) where the possible image size would be blown up to 16x20 for clients. That's why I am a little weary of the 1D, but you said it can be blown up that big.


I'm still trying to pick my buying order:

In no order:
1)Another body
2)16-35(possibly the 17-40 to cut some costs)
3)120-300

Maybe somehow, I'll try to make the jump to the 1D Mark II. :p

Funny how that lighting thing is one of the problems in it. Oh well, I'll go rob some 7-11's. That'll help me. :lol:

[gmen]

Thanks Gavin. It does help a little.

Idealy, it would be good to have with the 20D, but I'm stuck with my 10D for now. And since I haven't really considered it professionally, I'm not going to make as huge of a jump.

I have picked up a job(although it seems very slow) where the possible image size would be blown up to 16x20 for clients. That's why I am a little weary of the 1D, but you said it can be blown up that big.

I'm still trying to pick my buying order:

In no order:
1)Another body
2)16-35(possibly the 17-40 to cut some costs)
3)120-300
As soon as you use the word 'client', that makes me think that a second body is going to be your best investment. If you're booked for a job and your camera fails, a back-up is going to be absolutely vital.

If your client is seeking 16" x 20" enlargements, then the 20D may well be your best bet as you'll then have some flexibility with cropping.

A 1D image taken to that size is just about at its limits and would need to be a full-frame shot at low ISO. Here's a link to a full frame (totally unprocessed) image from the 1D if you want to try printing one: http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/B2FE6156.JPG ... You might also want to to upsize it in PS by 10% (2 or 3 times) and then it'll print to 16" x 20" at around 150dpi or so.

An image from the 20D would print at 16" x 20" at 150dpi straight out of the camera without any upsizing.

If you are going to dabble in very large size prints, then some labs will offer custom upsizing themselves to optimise the quality or you can use a software package to do the job yourself.

I use the rather excellent PhotoZoom Pro:

http://www.interpolatethis.com/ and http://www.benvista.com/main/content/content.php?page=ourproducts&section=photozoompro_1

...and Genuine Fractals is also recommended by many:

http://www.ononesoftware.com/detail.php?prodLine_id=2&utm_id=2000&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_content=General&utm_campaign=Genuine+Fractals&gclid=CMabodrrgIICFUdyGgodbHTFEw

---- Gavin

[Otta]

Hi Gavin , Just had a peek at this image (http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/B2FE6156.JPG) in breeze browser mainly to see how the histogram and interestingly I noticed you used all 45 af points . Do you find this better than single centre focus point with no expansion .

Just interested
Thanks Roy

[aam1234]

Hi Gavin, and I hope you can tolerate me for brining this subject up again. Horse racing.

Have you considered specialising in one sport, say horse racing ;)

Your work there is breath-taking.

[gmen]

Hi Gavin , Just had a peek at this image (http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/B2FE6156.JPG) in breeze browser mainly to see how the histogram and interestingly I noticed you used all 45 af points . Do you find this better than single centre focus point with no expansion .

Just interested
Thanks RoyHi Roy,

There are certainly times that I'll use the full range of AF points - it can make it much easier to frame an off-centre subject. However, the conditions have to be right, i.e. an uncluttered background and good contrast under bright lighting conditions. This approach doesn't work in fading light or indoors very well.

I also reduce the number of points to 11 sometimes via CF-13... in all honesty, the camera still behaves in a very similar way to using all the points :lol:

When I'm set up for all (or 11) points, I will 'register' the centre point so that I can easily switch to it when the conditions dictate. For example, at football, I'll always switch to the single point when the action is in and around the goalmouth - this is so I can avoid the camera mistakenly focusing on the goal netting!

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Hi Gavin, and I hope you can tolerate me for brining this subject up again. Horse racing.

Have you considered specialising in one sport, say horse racing ;)

Your work there is breath-taking.Hi aam1234,

I've certainly considered specialising. Football would have always been my first choice. However, it's a very competitive area - everyone with a leaning to sports photography who owns a digital SLR and a half-decent lens seems to want to shoot football in the UK :lol: This seems to have diluted the quality of images available to the media - and certain sectors of the press seem to be happy with pretty much anything on the basis that it is 'cheap' or 'free'.

At the top end of UK football, the agencies dominate the sidelines and licencing issues restrict freelance activities considerably.

The more sports I have experienced, the more I find myself wanting to be an all-rounder. I enjoy the variety. I relish the challenge of photographing a new sport and this keeps me on my toes.

I'm waffling :lol: ... you asked me about horse racing! I enjoyed photographing it very much - it presents a wide range of shooting opportunities and everything happens at a relaxing pace! I may have mentioned this before but there is a new track opening very close to me next year, so I'm keeping one eye on developments there. There will hopefully be opportunities as there are plans for weekly meetings.

So, in the short term, I'm going to continue to experience as many sports and situations that I can. Once the kids are a little older, I may well be driven to focus on one area... and, maybe by that time, I'll have a couple of photographers working with me and perhaps even a small agency on the go ;) well... you never know :lol:

---- Gavin

[Otta]

Yep, I like to shoot in manual mode as far as possible. I think I'm a bit of a control freak in that regard

I will generally take a base reading with my lightmeter, take a quick test shot and chimp the histogram. If need be I'll tweak the exposure slightly to make sure the histogram is nicely exposed to the right without clipping the main highlights

Gavin,
Thanks for answering my many questions .

Re histogram. I have been trying to shoot more and more manual , as I agree it is the way to go . But could you explain exposing to the right without clipping the highlights and exactly what you look for on the screen (back of the camera) .I have downloaded many of your images to disect and view the historam but although I am getting brighter images out of camera ,its still a guessing game .

Thankyou ,allways learning
Roy

[PhotosGuy]

But could you explain exposing to the right without clipping the highlights I'd be interested to hear how Gavin does it, too. In my case I shoot a lot of cars, & found that the spectral highlights from the chrome would influence the meter to try to include them in it's calculations. Not every highlight needs to be unblown, so I work around that by shooting only a white paper & chimping that exposure to the right. Since I almost always shoot RAW on "M", it works for me.
Gray Card…White Paper. What’s best? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58677)

I've had good results using a gray card to get the primary exposure, then checking the change shown when metering off the grass (or some other constant at THAT location) & factoring that difference into manual metering after that. (Meter the grass, see it's 1/2 stop off the gray card reading, & later when metering the grass applying the 1/2 stop difference to my "M" setting).

Usually though, I carry a sheet of white printer paper to use for taking notes & since I already have it, that's what I use.
Need an exposure crutch? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89123)

Over to you, Gavin! ;)

[gmen]

Re histogram. I have been trying to shoot more and more manual , as I agree it is the way to go . But could you explain exposing to the right without clipping the highlights and exactly what you look for on the screen (back of the camera) .I have downloaded many of your images to disect and view the historam but although I am getting brighter images out of camera ,its still a guessing game.Well... I use a very similar if not fundamentally identical approach to Frank...

In my case I shoot a lot of cars, & found that the spectral highlights from the chrome would influence the meter to try to include them in it's calculations. Not every highlight needs to be unblown, so I work around that by shooting only a white paper & chimping that exposure to the right. Since I almost always shoot RAW on "M", it works for me.

I've had good results using a gray card to get the primary exposure, then checking the change shown when metering off the grass (or some other constant at THAT location) & factoring that difference into manual metering after that. (Meter the grass, see it's 1/2 stop off the gray card reading, & later when metering the grass applying the 1/2 stop difference to my "M" setting).

Usually though, I carry a sheet of white printer paper to use for taking notes & since I already have it, that's what I use.I'll usually use an incident reading from my handheld meter as my start point. Equally you could use a grey card in place of the handheld meter.

I then take a test shot using the manual exposure determined by the meter (making sure I include something white in the image) and chimp the histogram. I'll then tweak a little to the right or left as required by modifying the exposure - I'll already know what shutter speed and aperture combination I need, so I'll be setting the correct ISO to give me that combo.

I'll also take a reading off of the grass using the camera. As Frank points out this is a great quick reference for the exposure. You simply allow for the fact that the grass isn't a perfect grey card and factor that in to your manual exposure - I generally find that I add anywhere between 1/3 of a stop to 1 stop... a little bit more perhaps if it's an artificial surface.

It can be useful to be able to predict what your histogram should look like by reading the scene with your eyes. This just comes through practice and repeated chimping :lol: The histogram will rarely be the perfect 'bell' shape that is often described... and sometimes your highlights must blow if you are going to achieve the correct exposure, for example when shooting backlit or where there are specular highlights (as per Frank's car example).

Another factor that can come into the equation is 'channel clipping'... I find that the MkII has a tendency to clip the red channel first, so it can be worth looking at the RGB histogram as well as the overall brightness histogram in determining the exposure.

---- Gavin

[Otta]

Gavin,

Thankyou

Roy

[Otta]

Sorry Frank, Missed your post .

Thanks...

Roy

[PhotosGuy]

Another factor that can come into the equation is 'channel clipping'... I find that the MkII has a tendency to clip the red channel first, I've noticed that in RSE, too. The 300D doesn't have a RGB histogram readout, so I try to get close to, but not all the way to the right.
I think Curtis shows that here: How NOT to expose to the right (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=93712)

More on the white card: Shooting cars, I have all the time in the world , sometimes as much as a whole 30 seconds between shots! ;) (Light changes fast at dusk, so most of my shots come in a 15 minute period).
In sports, with clouds affecting the light as well as fast action changing the location of the players & the angle of the light on them, Gavins grass substitute is the way to go.

Here's another substitute for when you have a bit more time & there's no 'good' grass:
Need an exposure crutch? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89123)

[Boggy]

Hi Gmen

What's you're favourite position ;) ......

At football do you tend to be mobile, covering teams and players from various positions or do you have favourite spots?
If you had to choose where would you head for? And with which lens ? (Some of us have to add the 1.6 factor :lol: )
Also, if you were sent somewhere you have not covered before, venue and teams. Do you research players, league positions etc to help decide which spots to start from or do you start at a favourite and then get mobile as the game progresses?

Lets make this open and say what about other sports and venues?

Cheers

Shaun

[gmen]

I've noticed that in RSE, too. The 300D doesn't have a RGB histogram readout, so I try to get close to, but not all the way to the right.
I think Curtis shows that here: How NOT to expose to the right (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=93712)

More on the white card: Shooting cars, I have all the time in the world , sometimes as much as a whole 30 seconds between shots! ;) (Light changes fast at dusk, so most of my shots come in a 15 minute period).
In sports, with clouds affecting the light as well as fast action changing the location of the players & the angle of the light on them, Gavins grass substitute is the way to go.

Here's another substitute for when you have a bit more time & there's no 'good' grass:
Need an exposure crutch? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=89123)Great advice Frank... thanks for adding those extra links.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Hi Gmen

What's you're favourite position ;) ......

At football do you tend to be mobile, covering teams and players from various positions or do you have favourite spots?
If you had to choose where would you head for? And with which lens ? (Some of us have to add the 1.6 factor :lol: )
Also, if you were sent somewhere you have not covered before, venue and teams. Do you research players, league positions etc to help decide which spots to start from or do you start at a favourite and then get mobile as the game progresses?

Lets make this open and say what about other sports and venues?

Cheers

ShaunHi Shaun,

Thanks for the question. Let's call this Part One :lol: I'll deal with a few sports now... and add others in another post as time allows.

As a general point, I tend to prefer to shoot from a low position, rather than standing. I try to position myself to maximise the probability of having faces in the shot... and to capture key moments like goals/celebrations.

Watch your backgrounds as well, this will influence your positioning. Covering team sports, you'll be aiming the camera in different directions throughout the game so you might not have complete control over what's going on in the background... but at small venues keep an eye out for things like parked cars (with their highly reflective windscreens) and big wheelie bins :lol: If these nasties are unavoidable then a long lens and a wide aperture may also be your saviour ;)

With motorsports, for example, you may be able to shoot from a fixed position in a fixed direction, therefore you can more successfully pick and choose uncluttered backgrounds.

I've scattered a few random example images throughout as well.

Football
My favourite spot is generally on the sidelines on the dugout side, closer to the half-way line than the by-line. I'll shoot from here with the 300mm or the 400mm depending on the size of the pitch (Canon really needs to make a 350mm f/2.8 lens :lol: ) - I'll sometimes use a 70-200mm on a second body as well.

My logic is that I can cover the vast majority of the pitch from that position (both goalmouths are within reach with the 400mm), also it's handy to get shots of the managers and benches. If you decide to go behind the goal, then you may end up with very little if it's a one-sided game, so I don't generally choose that position at the start of a match.

When will I change my spot? If the match is particularly one-sided... if there is a chance of a late equaliser... if there are dozens of players warming up in front on me :lol: ... if I've nailed the shots I need and I can then afford to commit myself to going behind the goal... if the floodlights come on and there is only one 'bright patch'...

The other factor that comes into play is who the client is. If I'm shooting for the local paper, then I'm going to need to bias my position towards the end that the local team are attacking... for other publications I may need to provide a broader view, so I may stay put for the whole game so that I'm able to get action shots of both sides on the attack and also get stock pics of a wide variety of players. There are times that I am just after pics of a particular player (a new signing perhaps), therefore I will position myself according to their playing position.

When the lighting is better, I'm going to be tempted to shoot some games from near the corner flag with the 400mm + 1.4x extender on one body and the 300mm handheld on the other. That will give me plenty of reach and the potential to shoot action at the far end of the pitch as well as covering the near goalmouth. It may (or may not) work :rolleyes:

Here's one from the sidelines at 400mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/foo006.jpg

.. and some goalmouth action from the sidelines at 420mm (i.e. 300mm + 1.4x extender):

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/eq005.jpg

Again, from the sidelines, a shot of a goal at the 'wrong end' of the pitch (cropped a fair bit to fill the frame):

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hb005.jpg

...and why I like to work near the team benches, reaction shots with the long glass:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hb001.JPG

Cricket
I love shooting cricket. The traditional position is to shoot from a fine-leg or third-man viewpoint. However, at club level, there are more opportunities to roam and change position as the shot requires.

I will move for left-handed and right-handed batsman. I will change spot if there is a large slip cordon which can make an excellent backdrop to the batsman as well as increasing the chance of nailing a slip catch.

If I'm shooting the bowler, I'll move if they change from bowling over to coming around the wicket. I'll sometimes move to put the scoreboard in the background if a player is close to scoring a 50 or 100.

The potential is huge. Armed with a little bit of knowledge of the sport, it's possible to make a whole variety of shots.

The minimum focal length required for cricket is probably 400mm, but 500mm or longer is much more useful. If I was shooting at grounds with stands :lol: (rarely), I probably think about rigging a remote high up with a 300mm lens so that I could show the full length of the pitch and trigger it whenever there are wickets/appeals etc.

The 'scoreboard in the background shot' at 600mm... with the batsman bringing up the 250:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/cd009.JPG

Always be ready for an appeal - from the right angle you can show the batsman in the background as well:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/cd001.JPG

Using first slip and the wicket-keeper as a background to provide some symmetry:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/dg001.jpg

Compressing the full length of the pitch at 600mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/eh002.JPG

Rugby
Rugby, I'd assume, has some similarities to the American version of football. I don't shoot rugby as often as I'd like. However the 300mm is a useful focal length and it is a 'roaming' sport for me.

The play can be quite static for periods of time, just moving side to side... so I'll move with the play if possible. Then you can stay close to scrums, lineouts, rucks, mauls and general action on your side of the pitch.

If it's not possible to roam, then I'd position myself in a similar way to a round ball football match and rely on the reach of the lens.

If you're after try action, then you'll have to be behind the try line. Again this is a commitment that relies on the action coming at you - it's not a spot I'd frequent for the whole 80 minutes, but I might move there once I have a feeling for how the match is developing and I've nailed some action shots from the middle of the park.

Something from the lineout, having moved close to the players but still using the 300mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ha001.jpg

Open play from the sidelines (complete with parked cars in the background):

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ha007.jpg

Basketball
At the dubious venues I am generally found at, my primary spot is behind the baseline with the 85mm, shooting from the corner of the court.

Ideally, I'd like to shoot with a much longer focal length but the lighting usually doesn't allow this. The 300mm is great down the length of the court and from up in the stands. Also a 70-200mm is nice as an all-round option from behind the baseline or on the sideline.

If you're working from behind the baseline, then bear in mind the positions that the officials take up to avoid 'backside' shots... EDIT: Have a look at this link as well:

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18632

Also many hoops' players are right-handed, so it's a good idea to work from correct side of the basket to capture their faces as they go up to the bucket.

Of course, there is also the wide angle view to be had as well under the basket...

My fave spot, 300mm from the stands:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/bas005.JPG

This is with the 85mm, from the baseline, quite close to the basket with on-camera flash:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/bnw006.JPG

Hockey
...of the field variety. Very similar approach to football. Just be aware that there are two officials who will hug the sidelines for the most part rather like the referee's assistant in football... and the ball moves fast and is very hard, so keep both eyes open!

Some hockey at 300mm from the sidelines:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/pfw201.jpg

Some hockey at 420mm from behind the goal and into the sun for good measure:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/gb008.jpg

Speedway
Shooting positions are limited by the access at different tracks... but speedway is a sport that provides great images from pretty much any angle - as long as a suitable focal length is used.

My favourite lens is again the 300mm, which is great for working from the centre green as well as shooting from outside the track over the barrier. Just be aware of safety issues and track regulations... don't get too close to the barrier as crashes are frequent.

Did I mention step ladders? I usually shoot from a low position, but step ladders are useful for speedway (and other sports, e.g. horse racing) if you have to gain some height to shoot over a barrier.

Also, it's a good idea to get used to working with long heavy glass like the 300mm f/2.8 handheld, as you certainly will not want to be encumbered with a monopod.

From the outside at 300mm, probably my favourite angle:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/cg006.jpg

Down the back straight at 300mm, not for the faint-hearted:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ci004.JPG

The classic inside of the bend shot at 135mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/bz010.jpg

Conventional panning at 300mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ej005.JPG

Something from behind at 420mm:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ce012.jpg

Hope that's helpful. I've only touched on what is a huge subject... This post also confirms my own thoughts that my style is to use longer glass rather than take a wider view ;) Also, there is plenty to discuss regarding the use of remote cameras to add extra camera positions - I have the kit but don't use it very frequently due to time constraints on the whole... an assistant is required :lol:

I'll add some more thoughts on different sports at a later date.

---- Gavin

[jayman1127]

gavin can you help or recommend manual settings on a canon 20d for indoor basketball.

i want to take some of my son and i'm getting blurry images. i have the 20d with a 70-300 lens on it.

i get some great shots but the action ones seem to be blurry and at time the images are trailing each other

thanks for your help

jayman

[gmen]

gavin can you help or recommend manual settings on a canon 20d for indoor basketball. i want to take some of my son and i'm getting blurry images. i have the 20d with a 70-300 lens on it. i get some great shots but the action ones seem to be blurry and at time the images are trailing each otherHi Jayman,

Thanks for your question.

Basketball is a very tough sport to shoot even under ideal conditions. It is fast moving and you'll need to get a shutter speed of around 1/500s to be able to freeze the action successfully.

Judging by my own experience of the lighting in gyms and indoor venues, you are going to struggle to attain the shutter speed that you need using the 70-300mm lens. I'm assuming this has a variable maximum aperture in the region of f/4-5.6, and you're probably already shooting at ISO3200 to try to suck in as much light as possible. What shutter speed are you getting? Is it possible you could post an example pic with EXIF data?

Not knowing the ambient lighting venue you're shooting at, it's hard to give definitive advice... however, I'd be surprised if you were getting a shutter speed much faster than 1/125s even at ISO3200.

With your existing lens, there is only one way to improve your images - shoot with flash (I'd recommend using an external unit rather than the built-in flash). This may well be highly impractical though and is not allowed at many sporting events. The duration of the flash is short enough to freeze the action and you should be able to work at an aperture of f/4 or f/5.6 - however, you would be best advised to keep your lens at 70mm (and shoot action that is fairly close to you) as the flash will not be effective if you zoom out too far...

...but, like I said, it's not the best solution and may well not be permitted.

The other (preferred) solution is to equip yourself with faster glass. You may well find that a lens with a maximum aperture of f/1.8 will give you the faster shutter speeds that you need.

The most economical route is to use the EF 50mm f/1.8 lens. This works nicely in and around the basket - be warned that the AF is a little slow, so you might find that miss a few shots.... but you'll achieve far more keepers than you are now though.

The lens of choice is the EF 85mm f/1.8 USM. The slightly longer focal length gives more flexibility, the wide aperture and USM motor combine to give fast and accurate AF. It's also a nice sharp lens as well that can be put to use in other sports and for portraiture/candid shooting in low light.

I'm afraid that spending money on faster glass is the only route to successful indoor sports photography :rolleyes: I speak from personal experience :lol: I have to say that the 85mm is one of the best investments I've ever made - it's a lens that has dug me out of a low-light hole on many occasions. The f/1.8 aperture should allow for a fast enough shutter speed if used wide open (or close to wide open)... although as I said above I can't comment specifically on the venue that you are shooting at without seeing the settings you are currently using.

Hope that helps a little.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

I've recently added some more images over in the Sports Forum... some football shots taken at 400mm and 560mm... just in case they are of interest:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=121636

---- Gavin

[MikeTrill]

Hi, I originally posted this question in Cornering the Pro's, photosGuy suggested I post it here.
I know that journalists and broadcasters get hammered for car insurance. Does the same apply to Pro (or semi-pro) Photographers?

I am currently in full time employment as a computer bod. I am working on a deal that will involve me following an athelte round the courtry as he prepares for the next two Olympics in my spare time.

Very simply, if I am on my way to a venue and I'm going for the purposes of selling images. Do I (or should I) have to notifty my insurance company, and if I do will I be seeing a massive £ loading....


Any help from the UK guys appreciated.

[gmen]

Very simply, if I am on my way to a venue and I'm going for the purposes of selling images. Do I (or should I) have to notifty my insurance company, and if I do will I be seeing a massive £ loading
Hi Mike,

'Personal' and 'Commuting' car insurance policies will generally have a paragraph like this: "Under our insurance policy you can drive your vehicle back and forth to the same place of work using social, domestic and commuting purposes. We can however increase your cover if you need to use your vehicle to visit any other sites of business during the working day; we will not however cover any goods or samples carried in connection with business use."

Therefore it is very wise to advise your insurers that you are using your vehicle for 'business' use. Better to be safe than sorry and, yep, it is likely to increase your premium. Some insurance companies also have a classification for 'commercial travelling' - but I think that only applies to travelling 'in search of custom'. There are usually three categories of business use... but the best advice is speak to your current insurers first to find out what they can offer... then it might be an opportunity to 'shop around' for the best deal!

If you're also thinking about insuring your gear and taking out liability insurance in case of any mishaps at the venue itself, then try http://www.photoguard.co.uk/ for this.

I wish I could offer a 'cheaper' solution :confused: You're s****ed if you do, you're s****ed if you don't.

---- Gavin

[brian_jackson]

I have picked up a job(although it seems very slow) where the possible image size would be blown up to 16x20 for clients. That's why I am a little weary of the 1D, but you said it can be blown up that big.
16x20 from a 1D is no problem whatsoever. I've printed and sold several 20x30's from the 1d and no one has complained so far. Heck, one was even a vertical crop from a horizontal image.

Remember, the chip in the 1D, 1DmkII, and 1DmkIIN cameras is 2x the size of the 10D, 20D, and rebel. Don't underestimate a camera just because of the megapixels.

If you can find a nice 1D with low actuations, I would seriously consider picking one up.


I'm still trying to pick my buying order:

In no order:
1)Another body
2)16-35(possibly the 17-40 to cut some costs)
3)120-300

A second body is great. When I made the switch to digital, I was still carring around a mess of T90's, F1-N, and A-1. So going from 5 cameras down to 1 was a big hurdle. I've since picked up a second body and it's so much better.

I had my camera bag stolen about 1 1/2 years ago, my 16-35mm f/2.8 L was among the victims, I decided to replace it with the 17-40mm f/4.0 L (at 1/2 the price) and so far I haven't regretted the decision. Sure you loose a stop, but at those focal lengths, does it really matter? You can hand hold that lens down to 1/15 and slower if your're real steady.

I had heard mixed results from the Sigma 120-300 f/2.8. One of my photographers that was shooting a National Championship softball tournament that we covered over Labor Day weekend (1st Monday in Sept for our overseas visitors :)) had this lens and the results were great. He even borrowed my Canon 1.4x II TC and said the AF was just as responsive and the images were tack sharp with good color and contrast. The Sigma is now on my wishlist after a few more PocketWizards, and AquaTechs.

good luck,
brian

[gmen]

Just added some more football images over in the sports forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122020

A few examples using the 300mm f/2.8 and 400mm f/2.8 under floodlights at ISO3200.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Hi Brian,

Thanks very much for your input. Good to have you aboard!

16x20 from a 1D is no problem whatsoever. I've printed and sold several 20x30's from the 1d and no one has complained so far. Heck, one was even a vertical crop from a horizontal image.Absolutely. The resolution of the 1D is on the whole not an issue. It produces great files straight out of the camera... The only factor that lets my 1D down is the intrusive noise at high ISO and this should be taken into account if you're shooting in gloomy gyms without access to strobes. The 1D files respond reasonably well to noise reduction techniques, but the end result is still somewhat unsatisfactory compared to the native performance of a 20D or 1D MkII.

A second body is great. When I made the switch to digital, I was still carring around a mess of T90's, F1-N, and A-1. So going from 5 cameras down to 1 was a big hurdle. I've since picked up a second body and it's so much better.A back-up is vital. I'm also sure you'll agree it's a good idea to have bodies with similar handling characteristics, particularly if you're frequently swapping from one to another during the course of an event.

I had heard mixed results from the Sigma 120-300 f/2.8. One of my photographers that was shooting a National Championship softball tournament that we covered over Labor Day weekend (1st Monday in Sept for our overseas visitors :)) had this lens and the results were great. He even borrowed my Canon 1.4x II TC and said the AF was just as responsive and the images were tack sharp with good color and contrast.I have no direct experience of the Sigma 120-300 lens...however, I am seeing an increasing number of them in use. One of the other togs at the football match I was shooting last night was using one and was singing its praises. There's an interesting review of the lens here:

http://www.press-photos.com/html/reviews/sig120300.html?3

---- Gavin

[Croasdail]

Gavin - Merry Christmas\Happy Holidays or what ever you do this time of year.... thanks for your help and inspiration this year... I learned a lot. Cheers!

[gmen]

Gavin - Merry Christmas\Happy Holidays or what ever you do this time of year.... thanks for your help and inspiration this year... I learned a lot. Cheers!
Thanks very much Mark! It's been fun all the way... a fine year all round. Have a very Merry Christmas...

...and a Merry Christmas to everyone at POTN!

Normal service will resume in a couple of days... hic...

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just added some Boxing Day football action over in the sports forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123073

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just to keep all things sporting ticking along, I've just posted a few more images from another festive footie match in the sports forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123622

---- Gavin

[grego]

Gavin,

I believe I'm going to get Sigma's 120-300 before any new body or anything. Your thoughts? I defintely want to have a 300 2.8 before UCLA's next football season, but I know baseball, women's softball, and track are on tap for this upcoming winter and spring quarters. So Im sure it'll come in handy and I'm sure the 20D will drop more in price as the new replacement eventually comes out if I hadn't bought it by then.

[gmen]

Gavin,

I believe I'm going to get Sigma's 120-300 before any new body or anything. Your thoughts? I defintely want to have a 300 2.8 before UCLA's next football season, but I know baseball, women's softball, and track are on tap for this upcoming winter and spring quarters. So Im sure it'll come in handy and I'm sure the 20D will drop more in price as the new replacement eventually comes out if I hadn't bought it by then.Hi Grego,

I'm seeing more and more of these Sigma lenses in use... so it must be a good choice. I recently posted a review by a working pro tog that was very positive: http://www.press-photos.com/html/reviews/sig120300.html?3

You'll certainly appreciate the reach combined with the fast aperture... ideal for the sports you'll be shooting... and, as you say, if (and when) Canon do bring out a successor to the 20D, prices will come down - the used market should also provide some great deals.

The 300mm f/2.8 has been my 'standard' focal length for sports for a long time, so I'd heartily recommend the purchase of any lens that provides that focal length and aperture combo.

---- Gavin

[grego]

Thanks Gavin for the link.

Question: You can use Canon's extenders on the lens? I always thought they were Canon lens only. Although I was smart and decided to by a 2x tc rather than the 1.4 way back, although I will look into 1.4 after I purchase this lens probably, but even then if I didn't for my 70-200 IS.

I have also tested the 120-300mm F2.8 lens with the Canon EF 1.4x Extender (the mk II version) and the Canon EF 2x Extender (mk II) and can report that the lens works well with the 1.4x giving an equivalent of 170 to 420mm F4, the AF works nicely, however the initial results with the 2x extender are not so positive. I will add more when I have had a chance to conduct further testing.

And another question. Do you think its overlap with the 70-200 IS and this lens? Although I do want it for a 300mm 2.8 more than the lower end, although having shot two soccer matches with the Canon 300 2.8, I did find that zoom might come in handy if I didn't have a second body. So I guess I answered my own question, huh? :)

That reminds me, I'll have to post those Women's Soccer College Cup photos.


Hi Grego,

I'm seeing more and more of these Sigma lenses in use... so it must be a good choice. I recently posted a review by a working pro tog that was very positive: http://www.press-photos.com/html/reviews/sig120300.html?3

You'll certainly appreciate the reach combined with the fast aperture... ideal for the sports you'll be shooting... and, as you say, if (and when) Canon do bring out a successor to the 20D, prices will come down - the used market should also provide some great deals.

The 300mm f/2.8 has been my 'standard' focal length for sports for a long time, so I'd heartily recommend the purchase of any lens that provides that focal length and aperture combo.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Question: You can use Canon's extenders on the lens? I always thought they were Canon lens only. Although I was smart and decided to by a 2x tc rather than the 1.4 way back, although I will look into 1.4 after I purchase this lens probably, but even then if I didn't for my 70-200 IS.
Yep, it looks like it will work with the Canon extenders - which is handy. If you a do quick Google search you'll find various resources that confirm this... also, not sure if it's mentioned in the Teleconverter/T-Con FAQ sticky over in the Canon EF and EF-S Lens Forum?

And another question. Do you think its overlap with the 70-200 IS and this lens? Although I do want it for a 300mm 2.8 more than the lower end, although having shot two soccer matches with the Canon 300 2.8, I did find that zoom might come in handy if I didn't have a second body. So I guess I answered my own question, huh? :)
:lol: Yep, with one body the zoom may well come in handy!

---- Gavin

[grego]

I did notice, but it seems the manual focusing ring, is closer to the body than the zoom focusing ring. That might take some getting used to, but I can't complain if I get that 300 2.8 for under 2,000 dollars, which is awesome relatively speaking!!!!

So much money so little on college budget!!

Thanks for all your help Gavin!

P.S. That urge to want to buy a 1 series camera is great. Doh!

[JennB]

Hello Gavin,

I am new to the Canon Forums and would like to ask you a few questions. I just received a Rebel XT camera, 85mm and 50mm lenses, and the 430EX flash unit for Christmas. :D Is this equipment sufficient enough for photographing my daughter's cheerleading competitions? I usually take individual and group shots, mostly indoors. Do I need to use the separate flash unit or can I get away with just the built-in?

Thanks in advance!

Jenn

[gmen]

Hello Gavin,

I am new to the Canon Forums and would like to ask you a few questions. I just received a Rebel XT camera, 85mm and 50mm lenses, and the 430EX flash unit for Christmas. :D Is this equipment sufficient enough for photographing my daughter's cheerleading competitions? I usually take individual and group shots, mostly indoors. Do I need to use the separate flash unit or can I get away with just the built-in?

Thanks in advance!

Jenn
Hi Jenn,

Firstly a warm welcome to POTN... and thanks for your question.

That sounds like a very nice outfit and a super Xmas gift! You should certainly have the equipment that you need to take individual and group shots indoors.

I've not used a 430EX flash - but I have just read the specifications and it has the features that you need to get your exposures just right.

I'd recommend using the 430EX rather than the built-in flash for three reasons: (i) It will provide a little bit more power if you need it, (ii) it will enable you to easily tweak the flash output to get a good exposure and (iii) since the flash will be a little further away from the axis of the lens it will reduce (but maybe not eliminate) your chances of getting red-eye.

The 50mm lens may well be your choice for group shots and perhaps the 85mm for the individual pictures. Although the 50mm might still come in handy if you are going for full-length shots.

The ONLY problem you may have is if you come to shoot a large group in a limited space... the 50mm may then not be wide enough. So that's something to consider if there are a lot of people in the Cheer team.

I'd recommend dialling in a manual exposure on the camera and then tweaking the power of the flash (using 'Flash Exposure Control' on the gun itself). The manual approach will allow you to determine how the background will appear in your final image. To save me repeating myself, I'll refer you back to an earlier post in this thread that gives some 'rough and ready' info on shooting indoors with flash: http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=984678&postcount=97 - I hope that's helpful... it explains how to 'mix' the ambient and flash parts of your exposure to get the result that you want.

Here's a cheerleader shot I took recently. The background was distracting (basketball players warming up etc.) so I set an exposure to reduce the background detail and to use the flash as my primary source of illumination:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/ge001.jpg

My exposure was set manually at 1/125s, f/6.3 at ISO800. I used a reasonably high ISO so that I would show a hint of background detail rather than render the background completely black in what was a very, very, very dark hall. My intention was to make the cheerleaders 'pop' out from the background rather than merge into it.

Hopefully you'll find that you will not need to use your flash for action shots (or you may not be allowed to use it). The f/1.8 apertures that your lenses provide should enable you to achieve a high enough shutter speed to freeze action (1/500s or faster is probably what you'll be looking for)... you may need to crank up the ISO to 1600.

If you do end up using a flash with the action shots, then you'll also find some thoughts on that in my earlier post that I mentioned above.

Good luck with your pics!

---- Gavin

[JennB]

Hello Gavin,

Thank you for the friendly welcome and answers to my questions!:D The photo you posted is a great example of how I want to take pictures of my daughter and her teammates. I may have to get wider lens because there are 18 of them in her team. A few more questions: Which lens did you use for the photo of the cheerleaders? Which do you recommend when taking a large group photo? And do I ALWAYS use flash when taking indoor sports photographs?

Thanks again!:) As you can tell, I'm truly a beginner at this.:lol:

[gmen]

I may have to get wider lens because there are 18 of them in her team. A few more questions: Which lens did you use for the photo of the cheerleaders? Which do you recommend when taking a large group photo?
I used a 28-70mm lens for the cheerleader image and it was shot at 29mm going by the EXIF data. However, this was mainly because I was backed into a corner rather than through choice :lol:

A zoom with a minimum focal length of 24mm or 28mm should be fine for most groups assuming that you are able to arrange the participants suitably, perhaps building in a little bit of 'height' if need be - this will avoid the group looking 'strung out' across the image.

This was shot with the same lens as the cheerleader group:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/gra001.jpg

...and the EXIF tells me it was shot at 44mm.

Something else to bear in mind is that if you use a lens that is very wide (20mm or wider, say) then you may find that individuals at the sides of the group appear to be slightly 'stretched' - it is an effect that can be corrected but is probably best avoided in the first place!

And do I ALWAYS use flash when taking indoor sports photographs?
Shooting action sports with an on-camera flash is not ideal by any means. If you can shoot with available light using your fast lenses (i.e. the 50mm or 85mm) then you may well get a better result. On-camera flash can bring about harsh shadows and is prone to red-eye. It can also produce a rather 2-dimensional final image.

If the lighting conditions are not good, some photographers will set up two or more flashes (or larger studio-type strobes) and trigger these using 'radio remotes' (Pocket Wizards). This technique allows for controllable and directional lighting that will freeze the action at a reasonably low ISO as well as giving a more 3-dimensional look to the pics... but of course it involves a significant investment in equipment and permission from the venue/organisers to rig up the lighting.

However, there are ways of making the best of using an on-camera flash if you have to use one. This thread might make for useful reading: http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=107348&highlight=hoops+flash+disaster - it also includes the cheerleader pics funnily enough :lol:

I hope that's helpful.

Cheers,

---- Gavin

[JennB]

Gavin, thank you very much for such a thorough reply. I truly appreciate all your help. The lighting conditions in most places my daughter competes are pretty good. I guess I wouldn't need to bring my 430EX with me then. Now I just have to invest in a 28mm lens to get all her teammates in a picture.:)

Thanks again, Gavin! BTW, you are a great photographer and inspiration!

[gmen]

Errr.... Mark (Croasdail)... I seem to have 'lost' your post regarding shooting for a 'non-profit' organisation.

However, this thread might make for a worthwhile read: http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18065

I wouldn't like to pitch in with any figures for two reasons: (i) The 'market' in the US may well be different to that in the UK at a local level and (ii) I'm not sure what the use your images would be put to - that may (and should) influence the price you will quote.

I can see that there is a balancing act in retaining your access and providing images at a realistic cost. The very bottom line is that you will want to factor in your exact costs of doing business.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just added my first sporting images of 2006 over in the Sports Forum: http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125085

Happy New Year to everyone at POTN!

---- Gavin

[ACDCROCKS]

Gmen, How did you start out as a sports photographer? did you advertise right off? work for a professional etc?

[gmen]

Gmen, How did you start out as a sports photographer? did you advertise right off? work for a professional etc?Hi ACDC.

Thanks for your question and a Happy New Year!

I posted a response to a very similar question earlier in the thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=989268&postcount=126

I hope that's the info that you're looking for.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

While I'm here I'll just add some more info that I've just posted over in the Sports Forum as it may be of interest here as well:

----

When you take a reading with your light meter.....the light meter will tell you what shutter and aperture to set your camera at?.Yep, the meter will give an aperture and shutter speed combination for a chosen ISO. Therefore it's a simple job to extrapolate from that reading to give you the required aperture and shutter speed combination for the job at hand. For example, at a football match my preferred working exposure set is 1/1000s at f/2.8... the ISO is my variable and I'll simply change the ISO to give me that combo.

Or do you have to adjust it after you take the reading, take a couple shots to see where your at?.I will take a test shot or two just to see how the meter reading is working for bright highlight detail. Under some lighting conditions, I may need to tweak the exposure by a small amount, maybe 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop. I will also take several incident readings in different directions so that I can see how the exposure changes depending on shooting direction. I'll then tweak the exposure on the fly if need be. If I'm changing exposure on the fly then I'll generally use the shutter speed as my variable as that's quicker and easier to change than the ISO.

And then do you continually take meter readings throughout the match/event your shooting?.If the light is varying then I'll relate the meter reading to the camera's exposure reading from an area in the scene. Shooting sports this often means that I'll use the grass as a kind of grey card - I can then use the grass as my quick reference if I need to change exposure. If time allows I'll pull the meter out from time to time just to see how things are going.

If the light is changing rapidly - for example, a windy day with the sun in and out of the clouds - then I will sometimes take the camera out of manual mode and resort to Av. I'll still be thinking about the exposure though and dialling in a little bit of exposure compensation as and when it's needed. In these circumstances, I'll often try to shoot into the sun as this will enable me to stay in manual exposure mode... when you're shooting into the sun, the exposure when the sun is behind clouds can be very similar to the exposure when the sun is out.

And does the light meter work for indoor readings as well as out......i.e. pretty much anything that you are shooting? Sorry to be such a novice.The meter is ideal for indoor readings as the lighting will generally be constant across the playing area. One or two readings and you're ready to go. Obviously the meter is also ideal for metering manual flash as well - great if you're shooting hoops with flash for example and don't want to rely on the unpredictable ETTL metering system... and, of course, it's vital for metering when using studio flash.

----

I know I have asked this before , but just as a matter of interest what focus points point did you shoot these with . Oh and one other do you use the * to activate auto focus . Is the 300mm redundant now .On screen there doesn't seem a lot in it , between the 300 + 1.4 and the 400 but I am sure there must be.
Since the lighting was pretty good, I actually allowed the camera to use all the focus points for a lot of the pics. I also registered the centre focus point and switched to that as and when I needed to. If there hadn't been enough contrast for this to work successfully, I would have switched to the centre point only for all the shots - this is often the case for low-light shooting.

I don't often use the * button to focus as I simply don't find it a comfortable way to work. However, I do use the * button as the 'focus lock' via CF 4-2 - this enables me to switch betwen AI-Servo focus and One-Shot focus in a similar way to using CF 4-1 or 4-3.

I'll also use the focus preset facility on the 300mm or 400mm lens to enable me to rapidly switch focus to the goalmouth for example.

Strangely I often use CF 4-3 for cricket... it just seems to suit the sport and I find it to be a comfortable way to work in those circumstances.

---- Gavin

[ACDCROCKS]

Hi ACDC.

Thanks for your question and a Happy New Year!

I posted a response to a very similar question earlier in the thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=989268&postcount=126

I hope that's the info that you're looking for.

---- Gavin
Thanks Gavin
Happy New Year

[gmen]

Just added another selection of recent pics over in the Sports forum... pop over and take a peek if you have time:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=126512

---- Gavin

[DwightMcCann]

Gavin, how clever to use this thread to let us know where we can get another "fix" of your talent! :-)

[musicmate]

A brilliant thread i will have to try some of your techniques out as soon as i get the chance.
Regards Steve

[Spencerj]

Hi Gavin, Thought id post a question if thats ok. As you know im a beginner at football photography. I have only been doing it since the start of the season. I get a few sharp images but nothing that compares to the quality of your work. Do you have any tips for a budding footy photographer with modest equipment. Are sharp images all about the lens, quality etc. What can i do to get images as sharp as possible?, thanks in advance and keep up the good work!

Spencer

[aam1234]

Hi Spencer, I saw your thread about football photography earlier but for some reason I forgot to point out this thread for you :oops:

You came to the right place for such a question, Gavin is such a great resource for sport photography, especially "footy" :D

[Spencerj]

no problem at all... thanks.

[gmen]

Hi Gavin, Thought id post a question if thats ok. As you know im a beginner at football photography. I have only been doing it since the start of the season. I get a few sharp images but nothing that compares to the quality of your work. Do you have any tips for a budding footy photographer with modest equipment. Are sharp images all about the lens, quality etc. What can i do to get images as sharp as possible?, thanks in advance and keep up the good work!

Spencer
Hi Spencer,

To maximise the chances of getting 'sharp' pics, I'd recommend using just the centre point for AF.

If you're filling the frame with the subject matter, you'll be making it easier for the camera to track the action, and it's less likely that the AF point will wander off, ending up with the background in focus.

It would be crazy for me to say that a nice prime L lens won't give great quality images, but you should still get some good quality pics from your equipment.

It's very much a case of working around any limitations: If the glass isn't great wide open, then just stop down 1/3 or 1/2 a stop if the lighting allows... increasing the DoF slightly is not ideal, but it will compensate for some focus error... if the AI Servo focus is struggling a little, try to find some contrast for it to work with by positioning the AF point appropriately... shoot plenty of 'sportraits' where the subject matter isn't moving much... watch your backgrounds, a nice plain background will highlight the subject matter and add some 'pop'.

Bear in mind that in low light, even the MkII struggles to nail the focus, so don't set your expectations too high. Sports shooting isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, expecially under some of the lighting that we experience in the UK! :lol: The only route to sharper pics is through plenty of practice, irrespective of the gear you are using... following the action, keeping the AF point in the right place, massaging the trigger and keeping it half-pressed (or perhaps using the * button to focus), recognising when the camera is tracking well, dealing with differing contrast situations, etc... all these factors come together in the sharpness 'recipe'.

The other factor that comes into play is post-processing. Adding some unsharp mask (USM) is pretty much a vital part of the workflow. The amount of sharpening will vary depending on the size of the image, the ISO it was shot at and the output required (e.g. print, web, etc...). For example, when I post a 750x500px image here, I generally add an unsharp mask of 300% (amount) 0.2 (radius) 0 (threshold) for images at ISO1250 or less. Not that sharpness is everything but, in combination with the right subject matter and background, some USM can really give the image some 'pop'... For print output some experimentation is required, but some additional sharpening is often required to produce an ideal end result.

The bottom line is that there is no easy answer. Faster glass generally means that camera will have an easier job in focusing. More expensive glass also means that you can work wide open with confidence... but in reasonable lighting, most lenses will produce good results. Your difficulties will always come when the lighting is poor... particularly indoors or under floodlights. In those circumstances the only route to sharper pics is through another 'investment' I'm afraid ;)

Bear in mind that with faster glass, you still have to work hard to keep the subject in focus since the DoF is significantly reduced particularly with longer primes. For example, if you shoot an upright, waist-up image of a football player at 300mm or 400mm and put the point of focus on their chest, this will mean that their face will probably be out of focus - so you'll get a nice sharp rendering of the club badge, but fuzzy facial features :lol:

---- Gavin

[Spencerj]

Thanks for the tips, so when you say use the centre point do you mean centre weighted average mode or evaluative mode but with only the centre point selected... hope that makes sense. Im getting withdrawal symptons at the moment as my camera has been down for 2 weeks and the last east thurrock game was postponed. I cant get to the away game at braintree on saturday so its going to be the 21st before i can get to another game at ETU., I might help their pitch though, they are having big problems. Ive spoken to neil about covering some thurrock games so hopefully ill get along there a bit more as well... Thanks again, its very much appreciated.

[gmen]

Thanks for the tips, so when you say use the centre point do you mean centre weighted average mode or evaluative mode but with only the centre point selected... hope that makes sense.Hi Spencer...

The centre point I'm referring to is the centre AF point. If you manually select the centre AF point (via the button in the top right corner on the back of the camera), then it will prevent the camera from making unexpected focusing decisions using the 350's other 6 peripheral points. Just keep the subject matter under the centre point in conjunction with AI Servo focus and that should improve the number of 'keepers' that you can achieve.

Of course, the metering mode won't make any difference to the sharpness of your images. I generally set my exposure manually so I don't make full use of the in-camera metering systems. If I do rely on the camera's meter, then I generally plump for a partial metering option. Here are a couple of posts earlier in this thread on metering:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=966699&postcount=35
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1047342&postcount=202

Hope that's helpful.

---- Gavin

[mdm]

I'm marking this for future reading. good stuff.

[fslshooter]

Gavin - Do you usually shoot with a ball head on your monopod? If not, then under what circumstances would you consider a ball head on a monopod to be essential?

[gmen]

Gavin - Do you usually shoot with a ball head on your monopod? If not, then under what circumstances would you consider a ball head on a monopod to be essential?Hi Jerry... thanks for the question!

I have to say that in all honesty, I have never used a head of any shape or form on a monopod.

However, I only use my monopod with the 300mm f/2.8L and the 400mm f/2.8L. Obviously, these lenses provide a collar which allows the lens to rotate easily from landscape to portrait position. Simply tilting the monopod slightly backwards and forwards, in conjunction with the rotational movement, allows me to cover all the angles. I usually shoot sports from a sitting position, and I find this to be a very comfortable way to work... the tilting and rotating action soon becomes second nature.

Generally, I think that any kind of head on a monopod can prove to be awkward to use. A head is also a (potentially floppy) point of weakness.

But...

Obviously not all lenses have a collar and, as a result, a head allows the camera to be positioned in a portrait orientation if the monopod needs to be screwed into the camera body.

However, if I'm shooting with shorter glass, I generally need to be mobile so a monopod is very much an unwanted burden... and I may well be augmenting my exposure with some flash, so the extra stability is usually not required.

Perhaps if I was hiking and shooting landscapes - and I wanted to travel without a tripod - I'd consider using a b&s head on my monopod... would it be essential? Hmmmm... possibly ;)

...but for sports shooting, I really can't see the benefit. Even if you are working with slower lenses without collars, a monopod (with or without a head) won't help you to freeze the action in low light anyway... the only route to that is via a faster shutter speed.

I'm sure there are sports shooters out there who swear by their b&s heads mounted on their monopods... and, by no means, do I intend to belittle the contribution the b&s head may play. They're just not for me!

---- Gavin

[fslshooter]

Gavin - Thanks very much for your in-depth reply. I've never shot with a head on a monopod either and I was wondering if I was missing something. It sounds like we share similar views and methods of use -- except I don't have a 400 f/2.8 to mount on my pod :cry:.

[gmen]

Gavin - Thanks very much for your in-depth reply. I've never shot with a head on a monopod either and I was wondering if I was missing something. It sounds like we share similar views and methods of use -- except I don't have a 400 f/2.8 to mount on my pod :cry:.No problem Jerry... it's just a matter of personal taste really.

I suppose there may be a case for a simple head with a QR plate to enable lenses to be changed quickly... but of course, you could still connect a QR directly to the monopod without the need for a head.

Also a head may be useful if you find that you work better with your monopod at a slight angle, tilted away from your body, the head can be tilted to compensate and for comfort. I've seen chest harnesses that allow a monopod to be inserted at waist level, a head would then be vital I suppose or the camera would be permanently pointing downwards.

It's a complex topic this monopod/head mullarkey! :rolleyes:

---- Gavin

[LMP]

Gavin,

Couple of things dawned on me yesterday, are you takking the 300 & 400mm to all games ? If so how are you carrying those and all the other gear ? Do you take the 'flight cases' that Canon supply them with ?

More worryingly how are you coping packing it away in a hurry should you need to get around to the other side of the pitch quickly after a game ?

[DwightMcCann]

Yeah, let's have a picture of you with your kit strapped on! :-)

[fslshooter]

Gavin -
I shoot with two bodies -- one with a 70-200 and the other with a 300 f/2.8 on a monopod. I'm seldom able to sit during a game and I shoot with the 300 most of the time with the zoom on a strap around my neck. When I need the zoom I ususally need it in a hurry and I've not found a quick, easy way to secure the 300 and use the zoom when I'm standing. How do you manage in this situation? Would the chest harnesses that you mentioned above be the best solution or is there a better way to secure the monopod other than the awkward way I'm doing it now -- I hook my left arm around the pod just under the 300 then bang into it with the 70-200 while hoping the monopod foot stays put.

[gmen]

Gavin,

Couple of things dawned on me yesterday, are you takking the 300 & 400mm to all games ? If so how are you carrying those and all the other gear ? Do you take the 'flight cases' that Canon supply them with ?

More worryingly how are you coping packing it away in a hurry should you need to get around to the other side of the pitch quickly after a game ?

Yeah, let's have a picture of you with your kit strapped on! :-)

:lol: Yep, I am sometimes taking both... I'll take a couple of pics later to show how it's all packed together... watch this space!

---- Gavin

[DwightMcCann]

Excellent! The few sports I have shot I have only used one body and have found that I tend to walk back to my car to switch lenses, sigh.

[gmen]

Ok... so here's one configuration for football. On the left is the Peli 1510 case and on the right is the Lowepro 650AW...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/bag001.jpg

1 - 300mm f/2.8L (with 1.4x extender attached just in case I need it)
2 - EOS 1D MkII
3 - CP-E2
4 - Short zoom, in this case a 17-40mm f/4L
5 - EOS 1D
6 - 580EX
7 - 2 x NP-E3 batteries and memory cards in wallet
8 - Monopod, in this case a Manfrotto 479-4B
9 - Laptop goes in here vertically
10 - 400mm f/2.8L IS
11 - Raincover, gloves, lens cloth, waterproofs under lens
12 - Spare AA batteries, lightmeter, pens, notebook, other widgets etc. in front pockets

Also...

13 - Lowepro accessory pouches (60AW) for 650AW

If I need to carry the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS as well, I can add an accessory pouch to each end of the 650AW and use them to carry the camera bodies. Alternatively I may reconfigure the 1510 to allow the 70-200 to be connected to one of the bodies.

So why does this work for me?

Well...


I can happily sit on the 1510 so I don't need to carry a stool
Everything is easily accessible - nothing is hidden under another item...
...so it's quick and easy to get kit in and out, minimising delay
When I'm sitting on the 1510, I'll transfer the other body with lens attached into the 650AW for easy access to a second camera. This might be the 1D + 300mm (or 70-200mm) for example. If the weather is good, I'll sit the body and lens on top of the 650AW on my right hand side ready to pick up when required.
It's not too much of a pain to get from car to ground. The 650AW goes over my shoulder and I carry (or roll) the 1510... so there are only two things to worry about.



It's not the ideal set-up to use on public transport or for hiking :lol: but it works for sports...

EDIT: Talking of bags, I've been pondering getting on of these for a while: http://www.thinktankphoto.com/pdfs/ThinkTank-AirportAddicted.pdf - if anyone in the US has experience of this bag, I'd be interested in hearing about it!

---- Gavin

[DwightMcCann]

Whoa, Gavin, I think that bag was made for you! That's about the same amount of stuff I carry in my Peli 1610, maybe more. I don't think I could lift it. Hard to believe it would pass the size limits for an aircraft. And I have heard lately that they are starting to add weight limits to carry-on, too, sigh. Were you going to use it for flying or just to haul locally, so to speak?

[gmen]

Were you going to use it for flying or just to haul locally, so to speak?It's certainly a big beastie... I was going to use it locally but primarily it would be to fly with... might have a couple of shoots in continental Europe coming up so need to be prepared.

---- Gavin

[DwightMcCann]

Yup ... no weight limit on carry-on in the mother country?

[LMP]

It's certainly a big beastie... I was going to use it locally but primarily it would be to fly with... might have a couple of shoots in continental Europe coming up so need to be prepared.

---- Gavin


Cheers for posting those pics Gavin, thats what its all about...being organised and accessible :) Where did you get your peli case from ? My stool is all well and good but not friendly with muddy touchlines!

Europe ? Anything you can share with us ?

[gmen]

Yup ... no weight limit on carry-on in the mother country?If only :rolleyes: ... looks like BA have a carry-on weight limit of 13lbs, so that's a no-no... :lol: although sometimes, it's more luck than judgement... or maybe I'll customise a suitcase... or maybe I just want to buy another bag ;)

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Cheers for posting those pics Gavin, thats what its all about...being organised and accessible :) Where did you get your peli case from ? My stool is all well and good but not friendly with muddy touchlines!Hi Marc... the Peli case came from Teamwork - http://www.teamworkphoto.com/peli.html and provides a firm base on a soggy touchline ;)

Europe ? Anything you can share with us ?Just a couple of 'proposals'. Nothing concrete at the minute, but I'll certainly share some details if anything comes off.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Gavin -
I shoot with two bodies -- one with a 70-200 and the other with a 300 f/2.8 on a monopod. I'm seldom able to sit during a game and I shoot with the 300 most of the time with the zoom on a strap around my neck. When I need the zoom I ususally need it in a hurry and I've not found a quick, easy way to secure the 300 and use the zoom when I'm standing. How do you manage in this situation? Would the chest harnesses that you mentioned above be the best solution or is there a better way to secure the monopod other than the awkward way I'm doing it now -- I hook my left arm around the pod just under the 300 then bang into it with the 70-200 while hoping the monopod foot stays put.Hi Jerry,

It's a tough one again... if you're standing up, then juggling the 300 on the monopod and the 70-200 is going to be tricky.

If I'm sitting, I tend to turn the long glass in towards me (rotating the lens on the pod in a counter-clockwise direction), resting it over my shoulder. Then I pick up the shorter lens/body combo which I generally place to my right-hand side (being right-handed) on top of my bag. I'll usually have it very close to me and ever-so-slightly behind me so that I can defend it from stray balls etc...

From a standing position, the difficulty comes from having the 70-200 lens on a body around your neck... which is why you're suffering from the 'impact' problem. In all honesty, I'm not sure there's a better solution. Certainly, if you hang the camera over your shoulder, it can be even more awkward.

Maybe this is why I try to sit down as much as possible...:lol: and I thought it was just middle age starting to get the better of me.

I've seen these chest harness contraptions from time to time, but they look awkward to use (probably home made :lol: ) and probably best avoided IMHO. They might be useful in very cramped surroundings where it isn't possible to extend the monopod fully to the ground.

I wish I could help more. If anyone else has any ideas for using two bodies from a standing position, I'm sure we'd both be interested to hear them!

---- Gavin

[LMP]

Gavin, the other thing I wanted to ask but forgot earlier was , how many shots do you recon you take on average per game ?

[gmen]

Gavin, the other thing I wanted to ask but forgot earlier was , how many shots do you recon you take on average per game ?Just did a quick survey of the last dozen or so matches... looks like about 300-350 per game, assuming I cover the whole 90 minutes and that it's a 'regular' match rather than a big Cup game or Final etc...

---- Gavin

[fslshooter]

Thanks, Gavin -- I was afraid there wasn't a good way to do it because I've never seen another tog employ one. Some of the ballparks where I shoot have photog pits where I can sit and place gear around me. It's the ones that don't have pits where I have to stand with gear attached to me.

A lot of baseball shooters don't bother with a second body -- it's mostly the PJs who use two. Perhaps my best solution is to use a second body where there are pits and a single body where I have to stand. Even better, perhaps I should avoid the ballparks without pits. I'm way beyond middle age and standing for two hours plus isn't much fun!

[gmen]

Thanks, Gavin -- I was afraid there wasn't a good way to do it because I've never seen another tog employ one. Some of the ballparks where I shoot have photog pits where I can sit and place gear around me. It's the ones that don't have pits where I have to stand with gear attached to me.

A lot of baseball shooters don't bother with a second body -- it's mostly the PJs who use two. Perhaps my best solution is to use a second body where there are pits and a single body where I have to stand. Even better, perhaps I should avoid the ballparks without pits. I'm way beyond middle age and standing for two hours plus isn't much fun!I have to say that even though I usually have the second body to hand, I don't use it that often either. I prefer to use the longer glass and shoot extra-tight, just to see what kind of results are forthcoming. If something 'newsworthy' happens close to me, e.g. a celebration or fight :lol:, then I'll reach for the body with the shorter lens.

Another idea is some sort of belt or chest pouch system. I've dabbled with Lowepro products which are great... but I've also wondered about NewsWear's Chestvests - http://www.newswear.com/chestvests.htm ... not that either option enables you to easily carry a lens attached to a body :lol: Anyway, I'm waffling now.

I think your idea of avoiding the ballparks without pits is a good one ;)

---- Gavin

[gmen]

A couple of recent updates:

Just added some thoughts on 'Soccer Shooting Strategies' over in the sports forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1094951&postcount=11

...and a few B&W hoops piccies as well:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=129078

---- Gavin

[PhotosGuy]

I've seen these chest harness contraptions from time to time, but they look awkward to use (probably home made ) and probably best avoided IMHO. Years ago I used one for a 2nd cam with a light wide angle lens. Zooms weren't all that great then & I had a longer prime on a wrist strap. Nice thing about the harness was it kept the cam accessible without a lot of bouncing when I walked. Then the elastic wore out in about 8 years & I didn't replace it.
Most of the time though, I had a permanent list from the shoulder cam case I designed to hold everything I needed to carry on a trip & still be convenient to work out of. ;)

[gmen]

Handy hint #1,226,535...

Whenever you attend an event where there are no official media packs, don't forget to grab a photo of the teamsheet(s). You'll want to get your captions right and this is a quick and easy way to get the info you need:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/sheet.JPG

---- Gavin

[tuggnet]

Okay, this may be a really dumb question (but I'll ask anyway) ;-)

Many pros on this forum, yourself included, say they "shoot to the right." I'm kinda confused as to what that really means.

I went to the park and was playing around with my new 70-200 2.8L and adjusted my settings in an attempt to "shoot to the right." My shots look very much over exposed.

Should my histogram look like this? or is it too far to the right?

BTW, this is about the best thread I"ve ever read. Thanks for the great info.

-et

[gmen]

Okay, this may be a really dumb question (but I'll ask anyway) ;-)

Many pros on this forum, yourself included, say they "shoot to the right." I'm kinda confused as to what that really means.

I went to the park and was playing around with my new 70-200 2.8L and adjusted my settings in an attempt to "shoot to the right." My shots look very much over exposed.

Should my histogram look like this? or is it too far to the right?

BTW, this is about the best thread I"ve ever read. Thanks for the great info.

-etHi Tuggnet! Thanks for the kinds words about the thread... very much appreciated :D

With regards to your histogram, it's pretty much impossible to say whether the exposure is correct without seeing the associated image/subject matter.

If you can post the pic as well, it would be easier to comment.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

The hockey season is underway again, so I've posted a few pics from today's tussle over in the sports forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131221

---- Gavin

[tuggnet]

Gavin, sorry about that. Here's the image. (you'll notice the dog has a football so I guess it qualified as sports ;) )

I guess in general I was asking if I should strive to keep the histogram that far to the right.

There is a lot of snow in the shot, and I attempted to adjust my settings to get the histogram as far to the right (without blowing everything out) as possible.

Thanks,

et

[gmen]

:lol: I was going to ask in my earlier post if there was snow involved!

In this case, you're not clipping the highlights and you're shooting a subject that is predominantly white. Therefore the histogram looks pretty much spot on.

EDIT: Even tweaking the low res version that you've posted shows that it's easy to restore some of the detail to the snow, as well as adding a little bit of contrast:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/snow.JPG

Exposing to the right is a technique that strives to maximise the amount of data available in the final image: http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

---- Gavin

[Procarlos]

Gavin,

I've shot on a field that had a shadow that was vertical across the field, goal mouth to mouth . All my shots were underexposed in the dark areas. The action was just moving to quick to make changes. Should i of only taken pics in the sunny area?

[gmen]

Gavin,

I've shot on a field that had a shadow that was vertical across the field, goal mouth to mouth . All my shots were underexposed in the dark areas. The action was just moving to quick to make changes. Should i of only taken pics in the sunny area?
Hi Procarlos...

I wish there was an easy solution to this ;) I don't believe there is... but there are several ways to approach this situation:


If at all possible, reposition yourself so you can shoot into the sun. This will eliminate the shadow area from the equation. This may not be possible if the sun is too low... but is certainly worth considering, as insane as it sounds! :rolleyes: If you look back at earlier posts in this thread, you'll find some ideas on shooting into the sun.
If the shadow area divides the playing area into two distinct zones, then I would be tempted to take a meter reading from each zone. I'd set the lowest ISO required to obtain the necessary aperture/shutter speed combo for the darker area and then change my exposure on the fly as the play moves from bright to dark parts of the pitch - using the shutter speed as my variable. The difficulty with this manual approach comes when the play straddles the two areas... at that point the camera's dynamic range may be a limiting factor.
An alternative approach is to resort to using a semi-automatic exposure mode - i.e. Av. The metering pattern that you choose will be determined by the colours of the uniforms involved and the nature of the venue itself, i.e. the backgrounds. You might also want to shoot a batch of test images and/or take handheld meter readings at all angles around the arena to see what is likely to happen... and then apply some exposure compensation on the fly as the play moves around the field. Again, there may be issues along the 'dividing line'. If you've dialled in some +'ve exposure compensation for the bright areas, remember to dial it out when the play enters the shadowy parts of the venue.

The bottom line is that a scenario like the one you describe is not an easy one to deal with. You have to work VERY hard to achieve a consistent exposure in those circumstances...

If anyone knows of an easy answer, please post it here!

---- Gavin

[grego]

Hey Gavin, I shot a sporting event again, finally!! I'd like to hear your critque since its been a year since doing basketball.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131388

[gmen]

Hey Gavin, I shot a sporting event again, finally!! I'd like to hear your critque since its been a year since doing basketball.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=131388No problem Grego... I've just posted a few thoughts.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just put together a quick gallery of cycling pics... this is far from my speciality... but it does illustrate the use of focal lengths from 15mm (fisheye) up to 420mm (300mm + 1.4x extender), as well as some images with flash.

Here's a sample pic by way of a taster:

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/btc050605/images/btc05060517.jpg

...and here's the gallery:

www.tgsphoto.co.uk/brentwood

Hopefully it will be of interest and illustrate some of the possible shooting angles.

---- Gavin

[DwightMcCann]

Very nice selection of Brentwood, Gavin. No EXIF (I'm having that problem, too). In the one that looks like fisheye looking down, what were you standing on (if anything). For the later ones coming straight at you, were you standing in the street?

[gmen]

Very nice selection of Brentwood, Gavin. No EXIF (I'm having that problem, too). In the one that looks like fisheye looking down, what were you standing on (if anything). For the later ones coming straight at you, were you standing in the street?Hi Dwight...

Sorry about lack of EXIF... not sure why... but these were taken a little while back so might have done something 'unusual' to them :lol:

In the fisheye-looking-down pics, I was simply stood on tip-toe holding the camera above my head as high as I could... making the most of the wide view to ensure I managed to get some of the cyclists in the frame!

The head-on shots were taken from a bend - so they give the impression of being stood in the middle of the street ;)

---- Gavin

[LMP]

Gavin, I'm liking the Cycling shots..something a bit different !


I have a question also, you have mentioned licenses needed for shooting football but what is required for Basketball ?

MK Lions are only a few miles from me ;)

[gmen]

Gavin, I'm liking the Cycling shots..something a bit different !


I have a question also, you have mentioned licenses needed for shooting football but what is required for Basketball ?

MK Lions are only a few miles from me ;)Hoops shouldn't present any problems, although you'll probably need accreditation to get courtside... but you're 100% certain to be blessed by better lighting than I'm used to ;)

---- Gavin

[blinking8s]

man, i didnt even see this section till today...damn am i out of the loop

I only made it to like page 8 reading through before my A.D.D. kicked in, so if it's been asked just smack me...but mine are just general stuff, i think i squeezed all the technical knowledge out of you long long ago...

What got you into SportsPhotography?
How do you keep from burning out on a particular sport?

[gmen]

man, i didnt even see this section till today...damn am i out of the loop

I only made it to like page 8 reading through before my A.D.D. kicked in, so if it's been asked just smack me...but mine are just general stuff, i think i squeezed all the technical knowledge out of you long long ago...

What got you into SportsPhotography?
How do you keep from burning out on a particular sport?Hi Will!

Glad you found the thread... to answer the first question, I'm gonna have to refer you to this earlier post ;)

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=989268&postcount=126

...and, on the second question: I just love sport in all its forms. Obviously football is the sport I cover most frequently, but I can't get enough of it in all honesty!

The same is true of everything else that I cover. From a photographic standpoint, I always approach each assignment with a view to doing better than the last one. It doesn't always work like that... but, if you combine my passion for sport with my willingness to learn from my mistakes, maybe that explains it.

It's not to say that I haven't groaned out loud when I've been faced by yet more appalling indoor lighting :lol: and that trying to wire an image pitchside in the pouring rain isn't a whole lot of fun!... but, most of the time, it's a pleasure to be involved with and to record the sporting activities/achievements of others.

---- Gavin

[Claire]

I just saw this thread. Damn, I gotta sit down and read it through offline! I'm sure I'll pick up some great hints for this summer. Want to try some more sports shooting. Tried football (soccer) and handball last summer. Not easy! Especially not handball, they move so darn fast!

[Otta]

Hi Gavin , I have a couple of questions for you ,if you don't mind :

Saturday I shot my first basket ball . I took a reading with my meter which gave me 250th @ f2.8 iso 3200 which was in my view slightly under exposed but I wondering what you would have done in this situation ..please .

Using IS , are you on Mode 2 ( I have come from non IS Nikon so I turn it of most of the time .

Last one , With your cycling shot above , did you use the focus point off set to the right or all points . Fantastic shot by the way . I love the effect of the 300 + convertor and can't wait to get mine ,Iv'e just got to make it earn it's keep . As Long as I can get better shots than Mum and Dad then it will .

Thanks for your comments in the for sale section , I had one guy with an is version but won't give me a figure .Anything too far over two thousand and I would rather buy new (warehouse express ) £3099.00 . Also a non is but he is in america so thats a no no ( £1600 .00 plus shiping ) .

Thanks for your help

Roy

[gmen]

Hi Roy!

Saturday I shot my first basket ball . I took a reading with my meter which gave me 250th @ f2.8 iso 3200 which was in my view slightly under exposed but I wondering what you would have done in this situation ..please.Well, if running away wasn't an option ;), then I'd have considered using a faster lens (the 85mm f/1.8 for example).

If a faster lens wasn't an option then I would have turned to the flashgun. It's not going to popular answer as a lot of togs frown on flash for sport. However, I feel that it does have its place from time to time. If you need to get a result and the officials/players are happy, then pop the flash on, dial the ISO down and go to work.

If the light is very marginal - e.g. 1/400s at f/1.8 at ISO3200 - then I'd probably pull out the flash nowadays. If you'd asked me the same question a year ago, I'd have probably given a different answer.

Using IS , are you on Mode 2 ( I have come from non IS Nikon so I turn it of most of the time.I'll generally have the IS turned off. If I need to use it I'll have it on Mode 1.

I have dabbled with mode 2 for panning shots. However, I've never made a side-by-side comparison to see whether it helps or not :lol: Something for the forthcoming speedway season methinks.

Last one , With your cycling shot above , did you use the focus point off set to the right or all points . Fantastic shot by the way . I love the effect of the 300 + convertor and can't wait to get mine ,Iv'e just got to make it earn it's keep . As Long as I can get better shots than Mum and Dad then it will .Just pulled the frame up in BreezeBrowser... and, yep, it looks like I was using an off-centre focus point to the right. The action was predictable on that bend so it would make sense in terms of the composition I was trying to achieve.

Hope that answers your questions.

---- Gavin

[iGerard]

Hi Gavin,

I just wanted to say what a great thread this is, and really appreciate the obvious time, effort and expertise you've put into it.

I've just spent the best part of 3 or 4 hours going through it, checking all of the links etc, and have certainly learnt from it. I have a few things to try out next time I'm shooting football matches - my attempts so far have been pretty ordinary!

I would like to ask a couple of quesions though :)

You mentioned at one point, that you adjust the contrast and perhaps saturation? down from the standard '0' setting... I have adjusted mine up one on both colour and saturation, because my first impressions of my motorsports pics with the 20D were that they were too washed out - not overexposed, they just didn't seem to stand out like my 35mm prints had done previously. I had always used Fuji Superia and occasionally Velvia, and had chosen these for their bright colours and high contrast. I thought these were great for motorsports, where the cars are generally brightly painted etc. So, being new to digital, I wonder if those settings are something that may be different with varying light conditions, such as the harsh midday sun here in oz, as against the duller UK sun? Your settings obviously work well for your pics, but is this something you would see needing to be changed often, or at all, or only in harsh light?? When might you change those settings?

I'm still getting my head around colour temp, white balance settings, monitor calibration, colour profiles etc. So far I've pretty much just left it up to the good ol' factory settings of the 20D!

Thanks again.

Cheers

Gerard

[Procarlos]

Hi Procarlos...

I wish there was an easy solution to this ;) I don't believe there is... but there are several ways to approach this situation:

If at all possible, reposition yourself so you can shoot into the sun. This will eliminate the shadow area from the equation. This may not be possible if the sun is too low... but is certainly worth considering, as insane as it sounds! :rolleyes: If you look back at earlier posts in this thread, you'll find some ideas on shooting into the sun.
If the shadow area divides the playing area into two distinct zones, then I would be tempted to take a meter reading from each zone. I'd set the lowest ISO required to obtain the necessary aperture/shutter speed combo for the darker area and then change my exposure on the fly as the play moves from bright to dark parts of the pitch - using the shutter speed as my variable. The difficulty with this manual approach comes when the play straddles the two areas... at that point the camera's dynamic range may be a limiting factor.
An alternative approach is to resort to using a semi-automatic exposure mode - i.e. Av. The metering pattern that you choose will be determined by the colours of the uniforms involved and the nature of the venue itself, i.e. the backgrounds. You might also want to shoot a batch of test images and/or take handheld meter readings at all angles around the arena to see what is likely to happen... and then apply some exposure compensation on the fly as the play moves around the field. Again, there may be issues along the 'dividing line'. If you've dialled in some +'ve exposure compensation for the bright areas, remember to dial it out when the play enters the shadowy parts of the venue.The bottom line is that a scenario like the one you describe is not an easy one to deal with. You have to work VERY hard to achieve a consistent exposure in those circumstances...

If anyone knows of an easy answer, please post it here!

---- Gavin


Thanks for your answer. I did start shooting in to the sun but it looked really bad in the camera display so i deleted most of thoes shots apart from a few. Once i got home and applied some contrast the pics didn't look washed out / over exposed.

Is that how the pics look on your cameras display washed out/ over exposed when shooting in to the sun?

[Procarlos]

Hi Dwight...

Sorry about lack of EXIF... not sure why... but these were taken a little while back so might have done something 'unusual' to them :lol:

---- Gavin


When creating a gallery with breeze browser it chops off the exif info.

[Procarlos]

When to set WB.

Some sporting events i shoot start at 3pm and go till 5pm. During this time the light starts to fade about 3:30 on wards.

So i would set it just before the game and would i need to re set as the light starts fading or should i just leave it? I'm also guessing i should set it when the lights come on?

How do you reset the WB to default after i have finished the game?

[LMP]

So i would set it just before the game and would i need to re set as the light starts fading or should i just leave it?


Hi Procarlos ,

I'd imagine from my experience last weekend that it would be best to set a new CWB to suit the changing light.

How do you reset the WB to default after i have finished the game?

Just set the camera back to AWB.

[gmen]

Thanks for your answer. I did start shooting in to the sun but it looked really bad in the camera display so i deleted most of thoes shots apart from a few. Once i got home and applied some contrast the pics didn't look washed out / over exposed.

Is that how the pics look on your cameras display washed out/ over exposed when shooting in to the sun?Hi Procarlos!

Just a flying visit, I'll answer your other question a bit later, but on the subject of the washed out look when shooting into the sun... yes, they will look very washed out.

In fact, the images on the LCD will look VERY scary if you've got it right... and you will need to restore some contrast in post-processing...

Here's an earlier post on the subject that I hope helps:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=852707&postcount=12

---- Gavin

[Procarlos]

Hi Procarlos ,

I'd imagine from my experience last weekend that it would be best to set a new CWB to suit the changing light.



Just set the camera back to AWB.



Thanks

[Procarlos]

Hi Procarlos!

Just a flying visit, I'll answer your other question a bit later, but on the subject of the washed out look when shooting into the sun... yes, they will look very washed out.

In fact, the images on the LCD will look VERY scary if you've got it right... and you will need to restore some contrast in post-processing...

Here's an earlier post on the subject that I hope helps:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=852707&postcount=12

---- Gavin

My pics looked much worst. but then again the players were further away as if it had a screen of white light.

But i get the idea. Thanks

[gmen]

My pics looked much worst. but then again the players were further away as if it had a screen of white light.

But i get the idea. ThanksPart of the secret is certainly to crop in camera as tightly as possible... this will minimise the effects of flare, etc. As I often say, it's not for the faint-hearted :lol: but you can get some nice images with the right approach.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

When to set WB.

Some sporting events i shoot start at 3pm and go till 5pm. During this time the light starts to fade about 3:30 on wards.

So i would set it just before the game and would i need to re set as the light starts fading or should i just leave it? I'm also guessing i should set it when the lights come on?

How do you reset the WB to default after i have finished the game?OK... so perhaps I'm a photographic Philistine. I tend to leave the camera on AWB outdoors as I find that the results are usually excellent. Sometimes minimal tweaking is required but nothing that PS can't handle in a few moments.

The problem with CWB in fading light is at what point do you set your CWB? There will be a period of changing, mixed lighting. Also, if the sun is going in and out of the clouds are you going to want to change the WB all the time - or concentrate on shooting? I hope that my images show that shooting jpeg with AWB much of time doesn't have to lead to 'unusual' colour casts. If WB is a serious concern for a critical application then, I suppose, RAW is the best option.

Under some floodlighting, I may use a CWB or (infrequently) shoot RAW if I'm not on a deadline.

Indoors then a CWB or RAW is probably the way to go - but you still need to be careful with the dreaded vapour lamps.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Hi Gavin,

I just wanted to say what a great thread this is, and really appreciate the obvious time, effort and expertise you've put into it.

I've just spent the best part of 3 or 4 hours going through it, checking all of the links etc, and have certainly learnt from it. I have a few things to try out next time I'm shooting football matches - my attempts so far have been pretty ordinary!

I would like to ask a couple of quesions though :)

You mentioned at one point, that you adjust the contrast and perhaps saturation? down from the standard '0' setting... I have adjusted mine up one on both colour and saturation, because my first impressions of my motorsports pics with the 20D were that they were too washed out - not overexposed, they just didn't seem to stand out like my 35mm prints had done previously. I had always used Fuji Superia and occasionally Velvia, and had chosen these for their bright colours and high contrast. I thought these were great for motorsports, where the cars are generally brightly painted etc. So, being new to digital, I wonder if those settings are something that may be different with varying light conditions, such as the harsh midday sun here in oz, as against the duller UK sun? Your settings obviously work well for your pics, but is this something you would see needing to be changed often, or at all, or only in harsh light?? When might you change those settings?Thanks for your kind words about the thread Gerard... I'm glad that some of the info has been useful. There are obviously no hard and fast rules for this sports photography mullarkey... but I hope I've shared a few useful tips.

As for the in-camera parameters when shooting jpeg: I'll leave everything set to zero... except the contrast which I will generally have dialled down to -1. This seems to give me a little bit more headroom with the exposure and can help prevent the hightlights blowing out. I'm not a histogram guru, so I won't try to give a sophisticated, technical reason for this approach.

The bottom line is that it seems to be preferable to add some controllable contrast after the event, rather than to try and reduce it.

When it comes to saturation, if I can get the exposure spot on manually, then I usually find that this helps the colours. A well-exposed image has a lot more potential than if your start point is an under/over exposed shot.

In harsh lighting, it might be worth trying some shots into the sun rather than with the sun behind you... under very bright, high sun, it is tough to maximise the saturation without resorting to a polarising filter perhaps (which isn't always compatible with sports shooting). I'm not sure there's an easy answer to that particular problem. You only need to ask a landscape photographer and they'll generally say that they avoid shooting around midday :lol: If you're shooting an event, then you don't have a lot of choice!

I suppose the proof of the pudding is the end result. Everyone will have their own route to a great image... this is just part of my personal 'recipe' ;)

Hope that helps.

---- Gavin

[Procarlos]

I'll leave everything set to zero... except the contrast which I will generally have dialled down to -1.


Is this the case even when not shooting in to the sun?

[gmen]

Is this the case even when not shooting in to the sun?Yes, I will often have it dialled down with the sun behind me. Try it and see what you think. It's a personal preference that seems to help me maintain a little bit more control over the highlights, particularly when the teams are wearing white kits :D

---- Gavin

[iGerard]

Thanks Gavin.

Yeah, one of the things I have picked up here is that there are no hard and fast rules as you say... Every sport has different techniques and points to consider... At an event late last year I ended up in a great vantage point about 5 feet from the cars racing past. The long "sports photography" lens was no use, and I got 90% of my shots that day with the 17-40mm...

Your point on setting the contrast below the zero mark makes sense. I can see it would be easier to add contrast with pp'ing than to reduce contrast. I will give that a go!

Thanks again, i'll keep working on my recipe!

Gerard

[DwightMcCann]

It is always a pleasure when emails announcing updates to this thread pop up in my inbasket! :-) Haven't seen much posting from you in Sports lately Gavin ... just busy or taking some time for the family? Looks like my next boxing match is Feb 3 but I doubt that I will get into the lighting truss with a camera as I haven't been able to make contact properly with the lighting guys ... I'll give them a CD of the setup/teardown from the last time and some business cards and hope I can get a proper discussion going since I have approvals already from Gary Shaw and ShowTime. But it may push me to get that Magic Arm issue back on my plate. :-)

I'm shooting Juanes tonight at the casino ... big talent from South America I think.

[gmen]

It is always a pleasure when emails announcing updates to this thread pop up in my inbasket! :-) Haven't seen much posting from you in Sports lately Gavin ... just busy or taking some time for the family? Looks like my next boxing match is Feb 3 but I doubt that I will get into the lighting truss with a camera as I haven't been able to make contact properly with the lighting guys ... I'll give them a CD of the setup/teardown from the last time and some business cards and hope I can get a proper discussion going since I have approvals already from Gary Shaw and ShowTime. But it may push me to get that Magic Arm issue back on my plate. :-)

I'm shooting Juanes tonight at the casino ... big talent from South America I think.
Cheers Dwight! Yep, I've not been as busy as usual on the photography front the past couple of weeks as I've been trying to spend a bit more time with the kids :) jubbly!

My most recent PhotoShelter gallery is here though:

http://www.photoshelter.com/gallery-show?G_ID=G0000H1qLs5DC_V0

I should add that I've recently taken delivery of a second MkII body - so that should help reduce PP time when I'm shooting with two bodies... ;) as always, less is more!

Good luck with the boxing and 'trussing' ;)

Talking of magic arms and widgets, have you seen my cobbled-together thingmy over in the lighting forum?:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134315

---- Gavin

[PhotosGuy]

"Thingmy": That looks very "Pro" Gavin! I added a link to it in the "Cobble" (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58609&highlight=cobble) thread.

[gmen]

"Thingmy": That looks very "Pro" Gavin! I added a link to it in the "Cobble" (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58609&highlight=cobble) thread.Cheers Frank! It's a pukka cobble... honest guv!

---- Gavin

[superdiver]

OK, heres a newbie question. I have a rebel XT. I shoot alot of indoor sports with a 85 1.8 and have a 70-200mm 2.8 on its way.

I am trying tofigure out how to best set the speed and the DOF. Do I set one and let the other one move as the camera thinks it needs to due to variations in poor lighting or do I set them both where I want and still shoot in manual mode (not that I am sure how to do that even...LOL)?

[gmen]

OK, heres a newbie question. I have a rebel XT. I shoot alot of indoor sports with a 85 1.8 and have a 70-200mm 2.8 on its way.

I am trying tofigure out how to best set the speed and the DOF. Do I set one and let the other one move as the camera thinks it needs to due to variations in poor lighting or do I set them both where I want and still shoot in manual mode (not that I am sure how to do that even...LOL)?Hi superdiver! Thanks for your question...

For indoor shooting, I'd generally recommend using fully manual settings. If you use Tv or Av mode you'll find that the backgrounds and players' uniforms will have an influence on the shutter speed or aperture that the camera sets - causing under- or over-exposure.

Generally the lighting is pretty consistent indoors, so a one-exposure-fits-all approach should work.

Obviously the actual lighting at the venue will influence what is possible - but you'll be looking to achieve a shutter speed of 1/500s as a minimum (1/400s at a push). The lens you use will also be determined by the ambient lighting conditions as you may need the wider aperture of the 85mm if the venue is particularly dark.

To set your manual exposure, the simplest method is to use a grey card (you can set a custom WB at the same time if you're shooting jpeg) - meter off of the card and use the reading to apply your settings. If you take a look at some of the basketball pics over in the sports forum, you'll see the kind of settings that other togs are getting - something like 1/500s, f/2 at ISO1600 would be fairly typical. Hopefully your venue will be brighter than the average so you can use the 70-200! ;)

Alternative methods of setting your exposure are (i) to take a base reading from your hand (ii) to use a handheld meter or (iii) to find something with a mid-tone at the venue to meter from. Whatever you do, you'll need to check your histogram as you may need to tweak the exposure slightly if your base reading isn't 100% - keep an eye on the highlights for example.

This thread might be of interest as well:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=130176

Plenty of useful debate and examples regarding manual shooting.

Hope that's helpful to you.

---- Gavin

[superdiver]

Thanks Gmen...

I havent learned to adjust the WB yet. I have the DVD and am learning and the pictures keep getting better and better...

Do you carry a white card and a grey card with you? Do you check it where you will be standing or more where the object will be shot?

[bigrob]

Hi Gavin
I normally just take photos of my kids playing rugby &football. A few weeks ago the manager of my sons football team was raising money by having a penalty shootout with him in goal. I took some pics and printed them for him.

Last night at football training one of the coaches of one of the other club teams asked if I could take pictures of his team in action. He also asked if I could pictures at the end of season presentation for all the teams (incidently this will take place just down the road at Charlton Athletic).

He said they would be prepared to pay. As these would be my first paid jobs I was thinking of charging a flat "nominal" fee and give them a DVD with all the pics on. The club can then sell them (hopefully they'll will be good enough). My thinking is two fold. It may lead to more jobs (as I get better) & they can hopefully raise some money for the team.

He told me the last photog (at the presentation) charged them £7.50 per pic sold.

If I take pics of the kids at a match, it would be about 2 1/2hrs including travelling the short distance to the ground. I would take large jpegs. I don't know how much post processing would need doing before they were ready to be put on DVD.

Do you think the "nominal" fee is the right approach & what would be a reasonal "nominal" fee?

I am very much an amateur and up to now have just enjoyed taking pics of my own kids.

Attached is a pic of the penalty shootout.

[gmen]

Thanks Gmen...

I havent learned to adjust the WB yet. I have the DVD and am learning and the pictures keep getting better and better...

Do you carry a white card and a grey card with you? Do you check it where you will be standing or more where the object will be shot?Hi superdiver!

I carry a grey card with me. Whether I use it is another story :lol:

In general if I'm working outside I'll go with the AWB unless the light is unchanging (i.e. under floodlights).

If I'm not on a tight deadline, I'll sometimes shoot RAW - and shoot the grey card as my first frame under the same lighting as the subject I'm shooting. Then I can use the grey card image to set the WB when I process the RAW files.

Indoors, I'll generally shoot a custom WB - but I'll be aware of whether the lighting is provided by vapour lamps. If that's the case then each image in a burst will have a different colour balance. Therefore I'll probably shoot RAW which will give me a little bit more room to tweak the WB during PP. Again, this will depend on deadlines - if it's tight then I'll have go down the jpeg route as I want the absolute minimum PP.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Hi superdiver!

I carry a grey card with me. Whether I use it is another story

In general if I'm working outside I'll go with the AWB unless the light is unchanging (i.e. under floodlights).

If I'm not on a tight deadline, I'll sometimes shoot RAW - and shoot the grey card as my first frame under the same lighting as the subject I'm shooting. Then I can use the grey card image to set the WB when I process the RAW files.

Indoors, I'll generally shoot a custom WB - but I'll be aware of whether the lighting is provided by vapour lamps. If that's the case then each image in a burst will have a different colour balance. Therefore I'll probably shoot RAW which will give me a little bit more room to tweak the WB during PP. Again, this will depend on deadlines - if it's tight then I'll have go down the jpeg route as I want the absolute minimum PP.

---- Gavin

[bigrob]

Phew - that is a most comprehensive answer Gavin and covered many things that didn't even cross my mind.

I will need to read through it a few more times, just to get my head around it.

To help any others who may have the same dilema, I will share my thoughts as to what option I chose, how it went and what I have learnt from it. Although that may take a while as the first shoot is probably still a month away.

I will have a look at the Photobox Pro site. I print all my pics via Photobox and have done since Aug 02 (and have had many free prints via their refer-a-friend link).

Once again Gavin, many thanks for the all the time and effort you have have put in to this and others threads.

[gmen]

Phew - that is a most comprehensive answer Gavin and covered many things that didn't even cross my mind.

I will need to read through it a few more times, just to get my head around it.

To help any others who may have the same dilema, I will share my thoughts as to what option I chose, how it went and what I have learnt from it. Although that may take a while as the first shoot is probably still a month away.

I will have a look at the Photobox Pro site. I print all my pics via Photobox and have done since Aug 02 (and have had many free prints via their refer-a-friend link).

Once again Gavin, many thanks for the all the time and effort you have have put in to this and others threads.
No problem Rob... it was more of a stream of consciousness than a structured approach to doing business but glad it's of some help.

---- Gavin

[Simon Harrison]

Hi superdiver!

I carry a grey card with me. Whether I use it is another story :lol:

In general if I'm working outside I'll go with the AWB unless the light is unchanging (i.e. under floodlights).

If I'm not on a tight deadline, I'll sometimes shoot RAW - and shoot the grey card as my first frame under the same lighting as the subject I'm shooting. Then I can use the grey card image to set the WB when I process the RAW files.

Indoors, I'll generally shoot a custom WB - but I'll be aware of whether the lighting is provided by vapour lamps. If that's the case then each image in a burst will have a different colour balance. Therefore I'll probably shoot RAW which will give me a little bit more room to tweak the WB during PP. Again, this will depend on deadlines - if it's tight then I'll have go down the jpeg route as I want the absolute minimum PP.

---- Gavin

Glenn,

Outdoors do you find that shooting a grey card as a reference and correcting during raw conversion works better than using the grey card to set a custom WB?

Cheers,

Simon.

[gmen]

Glenn,

Outdoors do you find that shooting a grey card as a reference and correcting during raw conversion works better than using the grey card to set a custom WB?

Cheers,

Simon.Hi Simon....

It's an excellent question... but I don't really have an answer! I've never carried out a side-by-side comparison.

I suppose in theory the result should be the same... but the benefit of the RAW approach is if the light changes for some reason - and you don't shoot another grey card - then you can still override the settings.

This is probably why I just go with an AWB approach outdoors. If you work with the CWB method when shooting jpeg, and subsequently forget to change the WB when the sun comes out, then you could end up with some 'interesting' results.

---- Gavin

[Simon Harrison]

Hi Simon....

It's an excellent question... but I don't really have an answer! I've never carried out a side-by-side comparison.

I suppose in theory the result should be the same... but the benefit of the RAW approach is if the light changes for some reason - and you don't shoot another grey card - then you can still override the settings.

This is probably why I just go with an AWB approach outdoors. If you work with the CWB method when shooting jpeg, and subsequently forget to change the WB when the sun comes out, then you could end up with some 'interesting' results.

---- Gavin

Thanks for the reply Gavin.

I tried the custom WB method at the weekend and frankly got some pretty strange results. I think I ended up with a 2000K difference between the CWB and the cameras own AWB. The CWB ended up being much too warm. I really haven't worked out what I did wrong, but I think it was probably down to the muppit holding the camera:oops: . The shots I've posted over the in the sports section were corrected to the cameras AWB setting and were much more accurate. I think I'll stick with AWB and maybe shoot a grey card as a reference in between races - if nothing else it'll help me sort the pics when I get back home!

Thanks again.

Simon.

[gmen]

Thanks for the reply Gavin.

I tried the custom WB method at the weekend and frankly got some pretty strange results. I think I ended up with a 2000K difference between the CWB and the cameras own AWB. The CWB ended up being much too warm. I really haven't worked out what I did wrong, but I think it was probably down to the muppit holding the camera:oops: . The shots I've posted over the in the sports section were corrected to the cameras AWB setting and were much more accurate. I think I'll stick with AWB and maybe shoot a grey card as a reference in between races - if nothing else it'll help me sort the pics when I get back home!

Thanks again.

Simon.The answer might be a colour temperature meter. Time to reach for the cheque book again ;)

---- Gavin

[gmen]

For some information on the use of Pocket Wizards to control remote cameras and flashes, please visit this thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=135571

More questions are invited... I'll do my best to answer them :lol:

Also, here are a couple of very useful links:

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1355

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1367

----- Gavin

[gmen]

Just added a review of the Think Tank Airport Security bag over in the Accessories & Storage forum:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137973

It won't be the bag for everyone, but will certainly be of interest to some.

---- Gavin

[superdiver]

Speaking of....

I started looking for a backpack type bag for my gear. I found a waterproof one that I like since I live in a rainforest and all, and spend alot of time on the water...


Any other suggestions?

[gmen]

Speaking of....

I started looking for a backpack type bag for my gear. I found a waterproof one that I like since I live in a rainforest and all, and spend alot of time on the water...


Any other suggestions?Very much depends on exactly what gear you want to hold... and how much protection you really need? Do you want it to float for example?

---- Gavin

[superdiver]

Yes, I need it to float...as I am in boats and skiffs and kayaks alot. PLUS I actually do live in a rain forest where last year we had 195 inches of rain...no kidding...and thats not even the record...LOL


So I do need a water proof carrier and something I can lug around sorta easily...

I dont have a tone of gear, only 4 lenses so far and only two larger ones, but I can see getting a really big boy one of these days...

[DwightMcCann]

Super, you might want to look into Pelican cases ... not sure if they float but they are waterproof (so they say.) I have three in different sizes. I think there is a thread somewhere that asked people to post their bags/cases that you might be able to find.

[gmen]

Lowepro Dryzone springs to mind:

http://www.lowepro.com/Products/Backpacks/waterproof/DryZone_200.aspx

Waterproof and floating.

The Peli cases are superb... but not that easy to carry. The Dryzone is a regular backpack style dooberry.

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Super, you might want to look into Pelican cases ... not sure if they float but they are waterproof (so they say.) I have three in different sizes. I think there is a thread somewhere that asked people to post their bags/cases that you might be able to find.Hi Dwight... I love my Peli case, just wish I could carry it more than 100 yards :lol:

Just to let you know I've posted a response to your thread over in 'Cornering the Pros' regarding online galleries and print sales etc....

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Just uploaded a random gallery of stock boxing images from 2005 to PhotoShelter... which may or may not be of interest ;)

http://www.photoshelter.com/gallery-show/G0000qkHtrr90vAg

---- Gavin

[bigrob]

Gavin
Your gear is obviously worth a considerable amount.

Can you give us any advice on insurance. My home insurance only covers me for £1000 out of the home.

I want all my gear covered on a new for old basis & at a reasonable cost.

[gmen]

Gavin
Your gear is obviously worth a considerable amount.

Can you give us any advice on insurance. My home insurance only covers me for £1000 out of the home.

I want all my gear covered on a new for old basis & at a reasonable cost.Hi Rob,

I'm currently shopping around for a new insurer (renewal time is looming). I'll post here when I've got it sorted.

---- Gavin

[PhotosGuy]

PLUS I actually do live in a rain forest where last year we had 195 inches of rain...no kidding...and thats not even the record...LOL Look on the bright side. That would be 2390 inches of snow! :D

[Croasdail]

okay - I am the process of finalizing details of two projects for the next year - one an 8 month project covering the renaicense of a local stock car track that was shuttered 3 years ago. The second opportunity will be the 18 moneth coverage of a local university that is starting it's first baseball team in it's history. I will be covering it from its' birth, hiring of its first manager\coach, recruiting of the team, the 4 million dollar renovation of a historic ball park, the teams first season from its first game through to the the end of it's first season. I have ideas for both, each offer it's own unique opportunities... but I am looking for advice as both of these are one of opportunities that there will be no redue chances. Again, any ideas how you approach each of these projects would be great. It is my chance to contribute to a little bit of history - albeit a very small piece. Cheers.

[gmen]

okay - I am the process of finalizing details of two projects for the next year - one an 8 month project covering the renaicense of a local stock car track that was shuttered 3 years ago. The second opportunity will be the 18 moneth coverage of a local university that is starting it's first baseball team in it's history. I will be covering it from its' birth, hiring of its first manager\coach, recruiting of the team, the 4 million dollar renovation of a historic ball park, the teams first season from its first game through to the the end of it's first season. I have ideas for both, each offer it's own unique opportunities... but I am looking for advice as both of these are one of opportunities that there will be no redue chances. Again, any ideas how you approach each of these projects would be great. It is my chance to contribute to a little bit of history - albeit a very small piece. Cheers.Sounds like a chance for a good brainstorming session to me... I'll post some thoughts later on tonight... over a glass or two of beer.

---- Gavin