any better High ISO camera

[snake0ape]

I have a T1i. However, at high ISO above 1600, I am not so happy with the noise. Are there any 1.6 Canon camera that have a significant improvement in this area?

I shoot in RAW, and post process in LR. Any tricks to make 6400 iso look decent?

[wayne.robbins]

Try overexposing and then bring it back down in post.

[I weston I]

if you have to overexpose, there is no point in using that ISO. Essentially, you are losing a stop of shutter speed by doing that.

[yogestee]

if you have to overexpose, there is no point in using that ISO. Essentially, you are losing a stop of shutter speed by doing that.

This is exactly right.

If you are overexposing at at +1 EV at 1/125th at f/4 at 1600 ISO it would make more sense to drop the ISO back to 800 ISO and get the exposure just right.

Having said that, I always set my Exposure Compensation to + 1/3rd EV when shooting at high ISO.

[wayne.robbins]

I was assuming that the OP is using the default metering without any EC. My mistake was using the wrong terminology- I meant - add some EC in to make it expose more to the right (without it blowing out details) Under some circumstances, actually a number of circumstances, Canon's do underexpose- making it more apparent.

Anyone heard of ETTR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right ?

[wayne.robbins]

And ISO 6400 is towards the upper end of the T1i's sensor- although you can use the expansion function to get 12,800.. For web resolution- and while not printing too large- it might be fine. But you are probably getting out of the better behaving ISO range.

[ejenner]

I have a T1i. However, at high ISO above 1600, I am not so happy with the noise. Are there any 1.6 Canon camera that have a significant improvement in this area?


In a word, no.

One reason I went for FF.

[TaDa]

Yeah, you won't see much of an increase in a crop sensor. The 7D isn't a high ISO rock star.

[x_tan]

Blurring is art.

[TeamSpeed]

I have a T1i. However, at high ISO above 1600, I am not so happy with the noise. Are there any 1.6 Canon camera that have a significant improvement in this area?

I shoot in RAW, and post process in LR. Any tricks to make 6400 iso look decent?

Significant? No...

Improved upon? Yes...

Any of the T2/T3 line, the 60D or the 7D will show improvements at higher ISOs, however slight they might be, they will be an improvement.

For tricks on how to get the most out of your high ISO, please click my mini-reviews link in my signature and look through the 7D high ISO thread, there are many things you can do even with the T1i to help in this arena.

This entire ballgame was shot with a 7D out of a "dare" at ISO 6400/12800. The results were very acceptable by the front office.
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Sports/Mad-Ants-Mar-3-2012

ISO 12800?
http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Sports/Mad-Ants-Mar-3-2012/i-wH3mQbn/0/X2/IMG7374dpp-X2.jpg

[brokensocial]

Switch to a 5D; it costs less than many crop sensor Canons and will beat every last APS-C Canon camera despite its age.

[TeamSpeed]

Switch to a 5D; it costs less than many crop sensor Canons and will beat every last APS-C Canon camera despite its age.

Unfortunately you are providing false info. The 5D does not beat out the latest crop bodies at high ISO. The IQ curve diverges right about midway between ISO 1600 and 3200 between those. At 3200, for example, a 60D/7D will look very similar to the 5D, and beyond that, better.

[Orogeny]

An ever so slight divergence from the original topic, but I this thread made me think about my cameras.

A little over 2 years ago, I upgraded from the original digital rebel (300D) to a 7D. Yesterday, I was photographing birds and I doubt I ever used an ISO below 1600, which was the max ISO on the DRebel. Unfortunately on the DRebel, anything over ISO 400 was useless. Amazing how big a difference in performance there is between the two cameras. If I expose properly, ISO 6400 is absolutely fine on the 7D. It may not be as good as the 5DII or 5DIII or the 1-series cameras, but it is still absolutely possible to get a good shot at high ISO.

Tim

[MakisM1]

Even the ISO12800 is useable with a bit of care...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/MakisM/St%20Monica/IMG_4057gimp1024.jpg

Exif intact

[S100mike]

You could always try the Nikon D7000!!. It fares quite well in the High Iso department...

[amfoto1]

I used 50D for a while... same sensor and processor as T1i...

After upgrading to 7D, which has essentially the same sensor and processor as T2i, T3i and 60D, I'll use my camera about one stop higher ISO without very much concern. Not a huge difference, but every little bit helps.

Full frame cameras are definitely lower noise, though of course that's a bit more of an investment in both the camera and lenses to use with it. Right now the 5D Mark III appears to be king, might be usable as much as 3 or 4 stops higher ISO than T1i/50D. I don't have one of those yet (so this is just based upon early user reports and Canon's claims), but in my opinion the 5D Mark II that I do use is reliably good for about two stops higher ISO than T1i/50D.

So, if you are okay using 50D at 1600.

T2i, T3i, 60D & 7D you'd likely be okay with 3200. And with a 5D Mark II, you'd probably be happy with 6400.

5D Mark III, supposedly should be good to 12800 and perhaps even 25600. I'm reserving judgment until I get my hands on one and see for myself, but some images I've seen have been impressive.

Not sure what versions you are using, but LR3 and Photoshop CS5 and the Adobe Camera Raw they share are all much better handling noise than earlier versions of the software. I havent used LR4 yet, so can't say whether or not it increases the software's NR capabilities again.

For particularly high ISO shots, you might try processing through Canon DPP. Sometimes it will do a better job with noise. It's not great for batch processing, though.... So I tend to use it only occasionally, on specific images.

There are some specific NR softwares, stand alone and plug-in, that you may want to try. Noise Ninja, Noiseware, Nik DFine are a few that come immediately to mind.

[melauer]

I agree with amfoto1. I moved from a T1i to a 7D and found it to be about one stop better at high ISOs. ISO 3200 is basically usable in all circumstances on the 7D.

The T2i, T3i and 60D have the same sensor as the 7D.

[ejenner]

I moved from a T1i to a 7D and found it to be about one stop better at high ISOs.

In that case the 7D is almost as good as the 5DII since there is less than 2 stops difference between the T1i and 5DII one you factor in that the 5DII is a good 2/3 stop less sensitive than the T1i at the same ISO (more at ISO 100 where the T1i way overexposes).

From my testing (I guess I got a bad 7D?) if anything the 7D is slightly worse than the T1i - same technology, slightly more pixels.

I'm talking raw BTW, not .jpeg.

Canon did make the 7D about 1/3 - 1/2 stop less sensitive then the T1i to compensate a bit so that a T1i at ISO1600 produces a slightly brighter image than a 7D with the same aperture, shutter speed and ISO and thus the 7D produces about the same to slightly less noise at the same ISO (but then needs 1/3 - 1/2 stop larger aperture or longer shutter speed).

Anyway, I'm sure to piss someone off here, but if the 7D was anywhere close to a stop better than the T1i I would have gotten one (maybe the new NR in LR is doing about 1 stop better?). I tested it long and hard and couldn't justify the outlay for something that actually had zero high ISO benefit over the T1i. It's a fine camera and much better than a T1i, but not for high ISO noise.

Gosh, in thinking about it, I really wish the 7D was a stop better than the T1i, I'd definitely buy one at the current prices (I consider a stop as quite a large improvement - it's twice as much light).

[qbfx]

To the OP, you should keep in mind that using ETTR can significantly improve low light results. When you go into high iso's (3200+), keep your shutter speed at the minimum where you're comfortable handholding the camera at the given mm and bump up the iso till you overexpose the image so much as to not blow-out any highlights you care about. In post you'll be amazed how much noise you'll hide when bringing the exposure down to normal. In many cases that can result in more than a stop less noise.

[TeamSpeed]

Gosh, in thinking about it, I really wish the 7D was a stop better than the T1i, I'd definitely buy one at the current prices (I consider a stop as quite a large improvement - it's twice as much light).

Again, it is so 2nd nature for me to set up the 7D in such a way that the resulting raws can be processed in bulk with DPP and then run a quick action on everything in the folder, that shooting at ISO 6400 is almost a non-event.

same gallery link as above: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Sports/Mad-Ants-Mar-3-2012

If I had a 7D and T1i, I would show you a side by side same settings raw file, and you would undoubtedly see just about the same results as what I show between the 50D and 7D. But alas I don't, at least not yet. If you could not get the 7D images to look like your T1i, there was something definitely wrong.

[snake0ape]

Yeah. I am getting a hunch that the 7D and the T1i will produce essentially the same RAW output in terms of signal-noise ratio. It make sense, same processor(s), same sensor chip unless I am missing some other aspect. Maybe the 7D is smarter in optimising camera exposure in high iso mode then the T1i which may lead many to believe the 7D does a better job in this area than the T1i. If I am wrong, I will buy the 7D in a heartbeat.

ETTR--- OK. I read up on ETTR and this make sense.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
Overexposing dark without blowing out important details is the key in reducing noise.

FF? I like the reach of the croppie too much. But I can easily be convinced to go FF if I had a few extra $$.

[gotak]

Yeah. I am getting a hunch that the 7D and the T1i will produce essentially the same RAW output in terms of signal-noise ratio. It make sense, same processor(s), same sensor chip unless I am missing some other aspect. Maybe the 7D is smarter in optimising camera exposure in high iso mode then the T1i which may lead many to believe the 7D does a better job in this area than the T1i. If I am wrong, I will buy the 7D in a heartbeat.

ETTR--- OK. I read up on ETTR and this make sense.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/optimizing_exposure.shtml
Overexposing dark without blowing out important details is the key in reducing noise.

FF? I like the reach of the croppie too much. But I can easily be convinced to go FF if I had a few extra $$.

T1i has different sensor from the 7D. Your T1i has the 15 mp last generation crop sensor. The 7D has canon's current 18 MP crop sensor.

[snake0ape]

Again, it is so 2nd nature for me to set up the 7D in such a way that the resulting raws can be processed in bulk with DPP and then run a quick action on everything in the folder, that shooting at ISO 6400 is almost a non-event.

same gallery link as above: http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Sports/Mad-Ants-Mar-3-2012

If I had a 7D and T1i, I would show you a side by side same settings raw file, and you would undoubtedly see just about the same results as what I show between the 50D and 7D. But alas I don't, at least not yet. If you could not get the 7D images to look like your T1i, there was something definitely wrong.

Your gallery pics looks excellent. Could you elaborate on how you got your 6400iso to look so clean and very usable. ETTR? manual settings? post processing software?

[TeamSpeed]

Please view my Mini Reviews link in my signature, there is a posting where I put together some of the settings and post processing used to create those types of results.

EDIT: here it (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1079217&highlight=mini-review) is directly

[ejenner]

I'd just like to say that TeamSpeed's philosophy is just as applicable to FF. In fact I would bet that he could do a better job at ISO6400 with a 7D and his PP than someone with a 5DII and not doing a good job with the exposure and PP. FF is an improvement, but it's still not enough to make up for sloppy shooting and PP/NR at these ISO's.

[jrbdmb]

If you go by DXOMark, the 7D is currently the best Canon crop camera sensor with an ISO rating of 854. The T1i is rated at 663. So you'd get 1/3 to 1/2 stop moving to the 7D.

By comparison, the Nikon D7000 has an ISO rating of 1167. I certainly hope Canon catches up a bit with the next generation of sensors. :(

[Justaddwata]

I know it is a 1.3 crop but the 1D MKIII delivers a noticeably better image for me than the 7D at higher ISO's.

[snake0ape]

If you go by DXOMark, the 7D is currently the best Canon crop camera sensor with an ISO rating of 854. The T1i is rated at 663. So you'd get 1/3 to 1/2 stop moving to the 7D.

By comparison, the Nikon D7000 has an ISO rating of 1167. I certainly hope Canon catches up a bit with the next generation of sensors. :(


Can anyone explain why the 7D scored better than the T1i regarding low-light ISO?

[TeamSpeed]

Can anyone explain why the 7D scored better than the T1i regarding low-light ISO?

Better more modern sensor and better firmware? The 7D sensor is a mix of the 50D and 5D2 sensor.

[nate42nd]

Can anyone explain why the 7D scored better than the T1i regarding low-light ISO?

The sensors are a little different (gapless microlenses) would be the main reason from what little I know. Also, in camera NR is improved, in fact ALL internal components are improved. Even the processor is doubled in the 7D. (Dual Digic 4s)

[snake0ape]

Did some basic research.
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/high_iso_noise_reduction_article.shtml
From my understanding of the article, the RAW data is processed with in-camera NR. And the 2009+ cameras have more sophisticated and adjustable in-camera NR. This in camera processing is the main reason for the difference between the T1i and 7D RAW images in high ISO. So with NR post-processing, the T1i S/N quality can virtually match the more modern cameras such as the 7D.

[nate42nd]

What people forget is the 500D (T1i) is about the same age as the 7D. It's only about 3 months older. Canon had the technology for the 7D at the time they released the T1i. The 7D was just packed with more advanced technology.

It's also true a person can get almost indistinguishable high ISO or low ISO results from the T1i and 7D with post processing. The results are not much different to begin with. With RAW images from both cameras most people would have a hard time telling the difference. The 7D has more resolution with 3 more MPX

It's the handling, focus system, speed, metering, customization, build quality, and other features that make the 7D such a great body compared to the rebel series.

[TeamSpeed]

Did some basic research.
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/high_iso_noise_reduction_article.shtml
From my understanding of the article, the RAW data is processed with in-camera NR. And the 2009+ cameras have more sophisticated and adjustable in-camera NR. This in camera processing is the main reason for the difference between the T1i and 7D RAW images in high ISO. So with NR post-processing, the T1i S/N quality can virtually match the more modern cameras such as the 7D.

No, the raw is not affected by the high ISO noise reduction, it is just tagged data to tell DPP what to do when it generates the JPG, but you can tell DPP to ignore that data. I choose to use 3rd party tools to clean up the noise in the JPG I get from the raw, instead of using DPP NR algorithms.

[TeamSpeed]

What people forget is the 500D (T1i) is about the same age as the 7D. It's only about 3 months older. Canon had the technology for the 7D at the time they released the T1i. The 7D was just packed with more advanced technology.

It's also true a person can get almost indistinguishable high ISO or low ISO results from the T1i and 7D with post processing. The results are not much different to begin with. With RAW images from both cameras most people would have a hard time telling the difference. The 7D has more resolution with 3 more MPX

It's the handling, focus system, speed, metering, customization, build quality, and other features that make the 7D such a great body compared to the rebel series.

Running back to back 50D to 7D shots at high ISO at the same exact settings shows the 7D to be cleaner with less streaking. The same results should be seen if you compare the T1i and the 7D (or 60D or T2i or T3i, etc).

[snake0ape]

Please view my Mini Reviews link in my signature, there is a posting where I put together some of the settings and post processing used to create those types of results.

EDIT: here it (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1079217&highlight=mini-review) is directly

Thanks TeamSpeed. I used your High-Iso Technique and saw good S/N improvements for the T1i in ISO6400. Thanks everyone for all your input. I know have a clearer understanding of how to optimize signal over noise. I really want the 7D esp AF, but I got around most of the "inadequacies" of the T1i. I think I am going to wait for the next gen cameras before I decide on a body upgrade.

[snake0ape]

Running back to back 50D to 7D shots at high ISO at the same exact settings shows the 7D to be cleaner with less streaking. The same results should be seen if you compare the T1i and the 7D (or 60D or T2i or T3i, etc).

After reading up more, I think I know why the 7D image comes out cleaner. The 50D and T1i has a "normal" ISO range from 100 to 3200. The 7D is 100 to 6400. If you were shooting at ISO setting of 6400, the 7D was processed with a true ISO 6400. The 50D was processed with a ISO 3200 enhanced with a in-camera PP "brightness" factor.
For both cameras, using 12800 will not improve S/N since it is beyond the camera's standard ISO range. Correct me if I am wrong.

[whmeltonjr]

I know people don't often take DxOMark scores as holding much weight, but:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/619%7C0/(brand)/Canon/(appareil2)/176%7C0/(brand2)/Canon

[TeamSpeed]

After reading up more, I think I know why the 7D image comes out cleaner. The 50D and T1i has a "normal" ISO range from 100 to 3200. The 7D is 100 to 6400. If you were shooting at ISO setting of 6400, the 7D was processed with a true ISO 6400. The 50D was processed with a ISO 3200 enhanced with a in-camera PP "brightness" factor.
For both cameras, using 12800 will not improve S/N since it is beyond the camera's standard ISO range. Correct me if I am wrong.

The 7D has a differently designed sensor over the 50D as well, and at all high ISO levels the 7D will come out cleaner, even at 12800. The color streaking that I would see on many 50Ds isn't there either, further producing a more superior image.

http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/7D-versus-50D

I never try to figure out why the hardware makes a difference one way or another, since I cannot really change the hardware. However, I can figure out how to use the settings of the camera to the best advantage I can, then also develop an action in photoshop designed for that camera to clean up the image each time. I spend the first week or so of a new body working out the kinks and development of that action for 3 different levels of ISO noise, and I am good for the rest of the time of ownership.

[snake0ape]

The 7D has a differently designed sensor over the 50D as well, and at all high ISO levels the 7D will come out cleaner, even at 12800. The color streaking that I would see on many 50Ds isn't there either, further producing a more superior image.

http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/7D-versus-50D

I never try to figure out why the hardware makes a difference one way or another, since I cannot really change the hardware. However, I can figure out how to use the settings of the camera to the best advantage I can, then also develop an action in photoshop designed for that camera to clean up the image each time. I spend the first week or so of a new body working out the kinks and development of that action for 3 different levels of ISO noise, and I am good for the rest of the time of ownership.

Thanks for showing the vs. Pics. They were convincing enough that I upgraded to a 7D. And wow, after an hour toying with the 7d, what an amazing camera.