Sigma EF-500 vs 430EX

[askohen]

Hi, I searched for this topic but did not find anyone comparing these two flashes. I've got a 20D and really need a flash. I don't have the bucks for the 580, so am looking for a way to do it more on the cheap.

For about the same price I can get the Sigma or the new 430EX. I know the power of the Sigma is more than the 430, but the Canon is probably built better and may be more compatible. If you had the choice, which one would you get?

[tim]

The 500 Super or the 500? I think the main issues are build quality, future camera compatability (500 works fine at the moment), and power (though there's not a huge power difference). I would get the Canon unit myself, for the assurance it will work with all future Canon cameras.

[askohen]

I meant the Super. I am leaning toward the 430. I am thinking the difference in power might be made up for in build quality and peace of mind. Do you think the 430 will be quite capable of taking your average indoor family shots? Does it fit on the same bracket as the 580? Does the bracket significantly reduce harsh shadows?

[condyk]

I meant the Super. I am leaning toward the 430. I am thinking the difference in power might be made up for in build quality and peace of mind. Do you think the 430 will be quite capable of taking your average indoor family shots? Does it fit on the same bracket as the 580? Does the bracket significantly reduce harsh shadows?

I don't know much about flash because I'm normally more into distant wildlife shooting, but I just got a 430EX and I used to have a 500 DG Super. I can't really comment on performance other than both did what I wanted given my limited needs. Both are well build. The Canon is perhaps an extra 10% worth of build quality but it costs more than 10% the difference in price. It also has a nicer carry case but the Sigma's was perfectly functional too. To me it's a fit for purpose issue. The Sigma is fit for purpose and so is the Canon. Any extra if just fluff to me. I would therefore buy on price. I bought the Canon because with a deep retail discount plus £35 Rebate the Canon was only a little more expensive than the Sigma. But I do know the Sigma has some great reviews and I fancy you'll be happy with either if you're clear what you want one for. BTW, I only sold the Sigma because I never used it. I bought the Canon this time because I'm trying to get into shorter length work.

[DavidEB]

Sigma advantages: higher GN, can fire as manual-mode optical slave. Can function as master in a multi-flash setup (you can get a 2-flash set for less than the price of one of the canon EX-5xx)

Canon advantages: build, automatic compensation for camera's crop factor, canon.

the build of the sigma isn't bad, by the way. it just isn't the canon.

[askohen]

Canon advantages: ...automatic compensation for camera's crop factor, canon.
Not knowing too much about flashes, this seems like a big deal. So the Sigma doesn't compensate for 1.6X crop factor? Does the Sigma assume a close to a "full-sized" digital sensor? If so, how does that affect performance?

[Jon]

You can be assured with the Sigma that there won't be any flash falloff due to slight zooming errors, for one thing. You don't get any more control, really. Once the head's zoomed out to 105 mm equiv., that's it.

[Built B16A]

let me jump in on this.

now lets talk real function. cuz im leaning torwards the 500 DG super also.

E-TTL II..

the 430 has it.. the 420 doesn't. now the 500DG super claims to also support this TTL II. so clip for clip, 4 pound for pound.. they're the same flash setups. is this E-TTL II over rated? i was under the impression it takes funtion of the flash to gain focus and learn heat temps to adjust on the exposure.

im leaning over on the 500 DG super since its alot cheaper. i dont' have to be a canon whore.. besides my wallet can't keep up.

[lostdoggy]

ETTLII is a fuction of the camera not the Flash.

the price difference btwn the canon and Sigma is almost $80

[DavidEB]

askohen -- until the most recent crop of canon flashes, they didn't compensate for the 1.6 factor either (pardon the pun). It's not a big deal to me as my best flash photos are all taken with some kind of diffuser or bounce anyways.

[4x4rock]

I have the Sigma 500 Super and it works fine with my 20D. With about +2/3 FEC, the pics came out nice.

[kram]

I just recently picked up the 500DG Super after trying to compare with the 430 and 580. In the end, I decided that the 500 was built well enough not to pose any durability issues and was very comparable to the 580 for a lot less money.

I'm happy so far with the choice - but I never did try a 580 or the 430.

[lmtayl2]

I just purchased a Sigma Super 500 Flash and it does not work. The flash occassionally flashes in auto mode but will not flash at all if in Aperature and Shutter Priority. I checked to make sure the connectors are lined up properly and they are. I'm attempting to use this on a Canon Rebel XT.

Can anyone offer up any advice. I was planning to take this with me on my trip tomorrow. Any help is appreciated.

Please send your comments to www.lmtayl2@yahoo.com

[tim]

If it doesn't work on your camera see if you can try it on another camera, if it doesn't work return it. This is why you don't buy gear at the last minute - things like this happen quite often.

[Brownie127]

I bought the Sigma EF-500 DG Super to use on my 350D.

I am really REALLY dissatisfied with it. I come from an SLR background with thyristor controlled electronic flash unit - never an incorrect exposure!

The DG Super has a low GN, only boosted by its featured zoom mechanism which narrows the beam, inflating its guide values. I have tested it for hours in Manual Mode at 1/200th indoors. I cannot get a reasonable exposure without lifting FCE by 2 stops and minimum 200 ASA. I can bounce off a low white scelling at around F11 with these settings - total flash to subject distance no more than 18 feet (6 metres).

Unexplicably, at 200th shutter speed, 50 Hz room tungsten bulb light-casts on walls are invisible, whether correctly or underexposed. Only with shutter at 1/30th can the natural lighting effects be seen on walls. At 200th the wall is just mono color and looks most unnatural.

Oh dear, Xmas coming up and it is so wrong?

[Curtis N]

Barry,

You aren't the first person to be disappointed with Canon's E-TTL and E-TTL II flash metering. There are many threads here on the topic, and many people use auto-thyristor type flash units on their modern digital cameras.

But it's a problem with the camera's flash metering system, not your Sigma flash unit. You would get the same results with any of Canon's Speedlites or the built-in flash.

[PacAce]

Barry,

You aren't the first person to be disappointed with Canon's E-TTL and E-TTL II flash metering. There are many threads here on the topic, and many people use auto-thyristor type flash units on their modern digital cameras.

But it's a problem with the camera's flash metering system, not your Sigma flash unit. You would get the same results with any of Canon's Speedlites or the built-in flash.
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a "problem" with the camera. That's just the way ETTL works in evaluative mode, just like that's the way the camera works for ambient lighting in evaluative mode. There are all sorts of calculation going on behind the covers in the camera when metering for ambient or flash in evaluative mode. That's one of the main reasons some photographers do not like evaluative metering mode, whether it be for flash or ambient light, because they really can't predict sometimes what the camera is going to do.

If one wants the predictability of auto thyristor flashes, then one should set the camera to average flash metering mode. There is no complex algorithm used in this mode -- just straight averaging of all the metering sensors, just like what the auto thyristor flash does. And the ambient light metering equivalient would be the center-weighted average metering mode.

[askohen]

Out of curiosity, do the Canon models of flashes offer more manual options than the Sigma? Would it be better for someone who wants to grow into his flash to get the Canon vs Sigma, or does it not matter in this regard?

[forkball]

I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a "problem" with the camera. That's just the way ETTL works in evaluative mode, just like that's the way the camera works for ambient lighting in evaluative mode. There are all sorts of calculation going on behind the covers in the camera when metering for ambient or flash in evaluative mode. That's one of the main reasons some photographers do not like evaluative metering mode, whether it be for flash or ambient light, because they really can't predict sometimes what the camera is going to do.

If one wants the predictability of auto thyristor flashes, then one should set the camera to average flash metering mode. There is no complex algorithm used in this mode -- just straight averaging of all the metering sensors, just like what the auto thyristor flash does. And the ambient light metering equivalient would be the center-weighted average metering mode.

Yeah, what he said. My camera's flash metering is on average and I see no trouble at all with my Sigma.

[Headcase650]

The sigma 500DG super offers all the same control as the 550EX or the 580EX the only thing it doesnt do is figure in the crop factor. The control layout for the sigma is compleatly different than the canons but if you read the manual and learn the controls it isnt a issue.

One thing the sigma does that none of the canon flashes do is act as an optical slave with nothing else needed, no sensor, pocket wizard or anything else to buy.

By the way I have both the 550EX and the 500DG super. They are both excelent flashes with equal features, they are just layed out different and the sigma costs nearly half the price.

[forkball]

The sigma 500DG super offers all the same control as the 550EX or the 580EX the only thing it doesnt do is figure in the crop factor.

What does that mean it doesn't figure the crop factor? Are we talking about the fact that when I zoom in and out with my 28-105mm zoom on my 20D, and the Sigma follows 28 for 28 105 for 105 and everything in between?

If that's the case then I say, so what? If I'm at 50mm with my 28-105mm, the focal length is still 50mm. And the angle of view is still of a 50mm lens, it's just that the outer edge of the picture gets cropped out in camera because it spills out over the edge of the sensor... creating an illusion of a narrower FOV.

[Jon]

Well, the 580EX and 430EX will zoom to just cover a 50 on whatever sensor your (reporting, so far 1Ds II, 5D, 1D II, 20D and 350D) camera is using, so you'll get a little more "bang for your buck" using an APS-C with the new Canon flashes than on one that says "50 is 50; I'm going to cover FF".

[Blue Deuce]

My Sigma is junk in my opinion. I like the results when it works but who wants a flash that isnt reliable. Just got back from our very reputable photo store. I searched out one of the guys who I have been dealing with for years. He said he heres stories and sees compatability problems every day with after market flash's on newer Nikons and Canons. To demonstrate he put my flash on a older film camera and it flashed every single time. We put it back on mine and it only worked intermitently. We then put a 580ex on my 20d and I shot off probably 50 shots w/o a problem. Also tried the 430 with the same results.

[forkball]

I've not had a single problem with reliability with my Sigma. On either my 20D or my Rebel T2 it fires reliably and predictably. It sounds like your guy just exploited a known compatibility issue. I have fired hundreds of shots on my 20D without a single issue. Now I would see validity in your guy's test if he tested the Sigma on the 20D as well as the 580 and 430. But your saying he tested the Sigma on an older film camera which you will probably never use anyway so who really cares if it works on it? Then he tested the 580 and 430 on your 20D. Of course it's going to work... and the Sigma will work just fine on the 20D as well.

[swatcop169]

I also have the Sigma Super 500 ETTL-II and no problems to date. It was a no brainer for me, I could have gotten a Canon 580, but the price difference was alot better for the Sigma.

[coeng]

I also am looking to get one of these. Does anyone else have anything negative about the Sigma?

[askohen]

Ok, I went for the Canon 430EX. I don't know "that much" about flash photography, but I work in a newsroom. I spoke with Knight-Ridder's head photographer who is out in the field all day and shoots exclusively Canon. I was 1/2 surprised by his answer to my question. He said that I should go for the Canon 430Ex over the higher powered Sigma or the Canon 580Ex. He said that he doesn't even shoot with a 580EX, and that it is over-kill. This is coming from a guy who gets all his equipment free from Canon, so he could shoot with anything. He said the guide # on the 430EX is plenty, and he mostly shoots with the 420. Granted that he is mostly not taking "high-art" pictures, but still his livelihood depends on getting the shot and getting it quickly. That helped make the decision for me. The rest of the photostaff here agreed with his assesement. None of them shoot with the 580, and all of them advised against getting the off-brand. The 430 is not that much more than the Sigma, so I went with the Canon.

[Bruce Watson]

Two Sigma 500 Supers owned and used for two years, completely happy with them.

I also have the Sigma macro ring flash and have used all 3 together for wireless flash.

My only comment is that the user manual is not easy to understand, but I figured all the features out by playing with them until I got it worked out.

[gplracer]

Interesting. I too am in the market for a flash. I want either the 430ex or the 580ex.

[askohen]

I will let you all know what I think of the 430 when I get it and get a chance to play.

[gplracer]

I know the 580ex can power other flashes. I do not think that I will need that. I only wonder if the extra power will come in handy or if it is not that much different to warrant $140 more in price.

[cdifoto]

Think of it more in terms of recycle times than actual output. For example, what the 580EX considers 1/4 power, the 430EX might consider full power*. The 580 can pop off more shots faster because it's only using 1/4 its capacity, thus recycling faster. The 430 on the other hand, is straining its little guts out, forcing you to wait between charges.

Whether that matters much to you (ask yourself how much you think you would actually be using the 430EX's full output) depends on your applications.



*used this figure just as an example...I doubt 1/4 to full is the exact ratio.

[MiG82]

Unexplicably, at 200th shutter speed, 50 Hz room tungsten bulb light-casts on walls are invisible, whether correctly or underexposed. Only with shutter at 1/30th can the natural lighting effects be seen on walls. At 200th the wall is just mono color and looks most unnatural.


How is that the fault of the flash? Of course the ambient lighting isn't visible at 1/200th when it's competing with a flash. Use the same exposure settings and no flash and you'll see how dark it is.

[askohen]

Well I got my 430Ex. And I must say I am disppointed. This could be because I don't really understand flashes yet. The last flash I used on an SLR was on a Nikon F2. Things have changed! I haven't noticed too much of a different between the popup and the 430 yet, but I wasn't shooting subjects from much of a distance.

Also I noticed that when bouncing off a low white ceiling, I was getting a real warm color temperature. Perhaps the flash just isn't powerful enough, or I am not bouncing properly. Also I noticed that when shooting with my 50mm f/1.4 lens, in P mode, it was selecting 1/60 sec at f/4, but when I changed to AV, TV, or M mode I was only able to get off a shot at 1/60 @ f/1.4. Don't understand that. The manual really is worthless that comes with the flash. Any suggestions?

[nickhull]

After reading this forum I bought a 430EX yesterday. I played around with it for a few shots last night and on the whole I was disappointed with the results. The flash seems no more powerful than the pop-up. I have a Digital Rebel.

The instruction manual is not worth much because there is no real explanation of the functions.

I couldn't complain about the price - I paid $180 for it (but that's a whole different story).

I plan to use the flash at a family wedding in 2 weeks and I need to train myself on its usage. The only other wedding I have taken photos for was outside - and that turned out extremely well until I had to take shots at the indoor reception (dull and blury).

I will try again tonight and use compensation to see if I can get brighter shots, but for now the only benefit I see is a fast flash cycle time and less draw on the camera's battery.

Why is the frame to side mount the flash so darn expensive? I would have thought $30-$40 rather than $200.

I am thinking of trying to get advance access to the church to see if I can practice using their lighting.

[gplracer]

Nick take a picture of something with the flash and then the samething with the pop up flash.

[forkball]

After reading this forum I bought a 430EX yesterday. I played around with it for a few shots last night and on the whole I was disappointed with the results. The flash seems no more powerful than the pop-up. I have a Digital Rebel.

The instruction manual is not worth much because there is no real explanation of the functions.

I couldn't complain about the price - I paid $180 for it (but that's a whole different story).

I plan to use the flash at a family wedding in 2 weeks and I need to train myself on its usage. The only other wedding I have taken photos for was outside - and that turned out extremely well until I had to take shots at the indoor reception (dull and blury).

I will try again tonight and use compensation to see if I can get brighter shots, but for now the only benefit I see is a fast flash cycle time and less draw on the camera's battery.

Why is the frame to side mount the flash so darn expensive? I would have thought $30-$40 rather than $200.

I am thinking of trying to get advance access to the church to see if I can practice using their lighting.


In certain situations you won't see much difference between the pop flash and a shoe mount, regardless of the power output of the shoe mount flash. That's called ETTL II. The pop flashes on the 20D and 350D do a fairly adequate job for what it's designed for. It does have it's limitations however and that is what will seperate the shoe mount flash from the pop flash. Can you bounce the pop flash off of a wall behind you? Or a seam where the ceiling meets the wall at an angle? Try that with ETTL and the shoe mount and I'm sure you'll see HUGE differences in your lighting. Also, your pop flash can only be varied in output power while the shoe mount flash can also be varied in the beam width. Sort of like how a mag light works where you can get a nice wide diffuse beam or a narrow hard beam. Understand what the shoe mount flash is designed to do before getting too dissapointed in it. Direct flash is direct flash and if you are a few feet from your subject, both flashes will expose your subject pretty much the same. The shoe flash will have more reach than the pop flash so longer distances will be more of a challenge without the shoe flash. Try this and tell me if you are still unimpressed. Get someone to stand about 6 or so feet away from you. You stand with your back to a wall about 3 or 4 feet(make sure the wall is white) Turn your shoe flash completely around and aim it up on the wall some over your shoulder. Now, frame and shoot your subject. After you do that... I challenge you to reproduce that same exposure with just your pop flash. :) Also, be sure your walls and ceilings are really white. Even an eggshell or offwhite will give you a slightly different cast. And be sure that when you bounce it, you are using an angle that's appropriate for your subject. If you're 4 or 5 feet away and bouncing it straight up, it's not going to do much good. Then it's better to bounce off of a wall nearby.

[askohen]

Interesting Forkball. I posted a few shots that test the difference between the popup and shoe-mounted 430EX. They were converted from RAW without any exposure/color balance correction. The captions give the IPTC data and shooting conditions. There are only a few shots, but that's all I have time for tonight.

I only wonder if I should have gotten the Sigma 500DG, for more power/reach, and it it would make much of a difference for what I am shooting (family snapshots indoor). Most of my creative stuff is outdoors in available lighting. Here are the tests. Again the captions tell the IPTC data and whether it was shoe v. popup.
http://ascohen.smugmug.com/gallery/1224530

[forkball]

Interesting Forkball. I posted a few shots that test the difference between the popup and shoe-mounted 430EX. They were converted from RAW without any exposure/color balance correction. The captions give the IPTC data and shooting conditions. There are only a few shots, but that's all I have time for tonight.

I only wonder if I should have gotten the Sigma 500DG, for more power/reach, and it it would make much of a difference for what I am shooting (family snapshots indoor). Most of my creative stuff is outdoors in available lighting. Here are the tests. Again the captions tell the IPTC data and whether it was shoe v. popup.
http://ascohen.smugmug.com/gallery/1224530

I looked at the samples and it almost appears as though the direct 430ex is slightly less intense as the popup flash at the same settings. It looks like it's allowing some of the ambient fluorencent lights to influence the coler temperature as well which would explain the slightly orange tint. That is a bit unexpected. The bounced 430ex is slightly less effected, but effected more than the popup flash. What is your WB set to the exif just says manual? I know the 430ex is supposed to communicate WB with the camera so that is odd. The best exposure level though is the bounced light as it's the most even, but with that color cast you can't really tell. The pop flash looks a bit overexposed and it's a harder lighting. Try with a custom white balance.

[askohen]

The WB is set to flash for all shots. According to what I read with, E-TTLII that will yeild the same results as set to Auto White Balance. The Canon documentation is lousy, including the various iterations of Flash Work. By far the best article I have read is http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/. (http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/)
I think that explains a lot. In a nutshell, you can't expect that much more from an external unit shoe mounted than you can from a popup. With an external, of course, you can bounce and you have more options in terms of settings. But you shouldn't expect the world from a speedlite. Also, you will need a tripod if you are shooting in Aperture Prio (AP) or Shutter Prio (SP) and you are using a longer lens. That is because with AP or SP you are using slower shutter speeds to expose the background properly. I am not sure why the EOS system assumes that when you use AP or SP you want to use a slower shutter speed. Perhaps someone can explain that.

[askohen]

Tried another test. Posted a few pictures comparing 430EX vs. Popup flash in different program modes, direct and bounced. Again IPTC and other info is in caption. All shots are using camera set to flash WB, and are converted to JPG using default Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) settings for Canon 20D. No adjustment has been made in ACR, except a 35 global sharpening.
http://ascohen.smugmug.com/gallery/1227110

[Curtis N]

I am not sure why the EOS system assumes that when you use AP or SP you want to use a slower shutter speed. Perhaps someone can explain that.The system assumes that with aperture priority (Av) or shutter priority (Tv), you want the camera to try to expose for ambient light. That's what those modes are for. Ambient light metering and flash metering are two separate measurements.

If you want to use flash as your primary light source, use Manual mode. Now, the camera assumes only that you want it to do what you tell it. Set your shutter at flash sync speed or slightly slower. Set your aperture and ISO to manage DOF and flash range, and let E-TTL take care of the metering.

[askohen]

If you want to use flash as your primary light source, use Manual mode. Now, the camera assumes only that you want it to do what you tell it. Set your shutter at flash sync speed or slightly slower. Set your aperture and ISO to manage DOF and flash range, and let E-TTL take care of the metering.

I am confused regarding several items:


What is the max synch speed on the 20D? Nowhere can I find this in any documentation. Ugh.
How do I set the synch speed. Ie, in M mode will it synch at any shutter speed I deem appropriate? So, let's say I am shooting with a 50mm on the 20D, but want to handhold. Therefore I want to shoot at 1/80--1/125 s. Do I just set the shutter speed to 1/80 or 1/125 s, and choose the appropriate aperture and ISO? Do I need to use the H button on the 430EX?
There is also a manual mode on the flash, which I assume adjusts the flash output. That is totally different than M mode on the body, right?
So, to confirm, P mode tries to take into account ambient and subject; AV and TV assume you are in daylight, using fill flash and want to use a wide aperture to blur the background; and M mode meters for ?

[Curtis N]

What is the max synch speed on the 20D? Nowhere can I find this in any documentation.1/250. It's in the manual somewhere. ;) How do I set the synch speed. Ie, in M mode will it synch at any shutter speed I deem appropriate?Yes, use M mode and set the shutter speed. If you set a speed faster than 1/250, it will revert to 1/250 when you half-press the shutter if the flash is turned on (the exception to this is FP flash, aka "high speed sync").There is also a manual mode on the flash, which I assume adjusts the flash output. That is totally different than M mode on the body, right?Correct. Manual flash is best used in controlled situations where you can meter and adjust to get the exposure you want.So, to confirm, P mode tries to take into account ambient and subject; AV and TV assume you are in daylight, using fill flash and want to use a wide aperture to blur the background; and M mode meters for ?The camera ALWAYS tries to meter for ambient light, if you let it. The exception to this is that in P mode it won't use a shutter speed slower than 1/60 if the flash is on. In M mode, the meter in the viewfinder is metering ambient light. That's the only thing it has to measure. Obviously if you're indoors and set your camera to 1/250, f/8, ISO 100 in M mode the meter will be blinking on -2, but you have no reason to care if you're using flash.

It can be very confusing until you start to think of every flash picture as two exposures in one. There is the ambient light exposure, which you or the camera can adjust via shutter speed, aperture and ISO. Then there is the flash exposure, which the camera's E-TTL II flash metering system measures with the preflash and adjusts via flash output, taking aperture and ISO into account.

[askohen]

By far the best documentation I found on Flash photography with the EOS cameras is at http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index.html
Note that there are 3 parts.

[DavidEB]

askohen -- the two direct flash photos show more glare on the subject's face, and a harsh shadow under the chin, as compared to the bounce photo.

the color cast with bounce flash is perhaps due to faint tinting in the paint in the ceiling. It may look white to your eye but be off by enough to throw out the color balance. I generally shoot bounce flash in RAW. Also, when using flash for fill, it's only color balanced for sunlight. The colors will mismatch on cloudy days, in shade, and in indoors lighting.