Withdrawing from an e-shoot [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

artemisn

25th of April 2012 (Wed), 23:09

That is a very smart move on your part - At that point, any other decision would lead to a very awkward shoot, which would produce undesirable results, which would unleash an even bigger 'bridezilla.' Your email doesn't seem angry at all. It's concise and professional, I couldn't have written it better myself.

(Assuming she's been trying to haggle/argue over time and copyright for a good while)

TheBrick3

25th of April 2012 (Wed), 23:13

I am not sure how the entire conversation went, but it seems like she's just excited about all of this, no? I certainly don't sense there's a Bridesilla lurking somewhere in there. Hard to tell.

BTW, one hour for an e-session?

She only wants to pay for an hour to get the couple pictures she needs.

I've never heard of a three outfit e-shoot. I expected her to go with one, if anything, rather than three given concerns over changing time.I have been worried about her before. I have tried to be accommodating. But If I'm going to travel far enough that it's not going to make economic sense, it needs to be fun for me and look like something that'll pay off long term.

BreitlingFan

25th of April 2012 (Wed), 23:53

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 00:45

Well, one thing you can bank on is bad publicity.

If someone asks her for a recommendation for a photographer, even if she doesn't know any others, you can bet your last dollar that she'll bring your name up as the guy not to hire...

I was aware of that. It's better than being the guy who screwed up her wedding.

In any event, I've decided to tell her (nicely and gently) that we're cutting it close anyways and it's not feasible to do this is an hour with three outfits. I will offer her an additional hour at a discounted rate less than the first which works out to really a pretty nominal (IMO) difference. I don't really pay that much attention to shooting times when pricing things, anyways, but don't care for her "I'm sorry this is going to take more than an hour, but I'm really excited" attitude, in addition to other concerns.

There's four outcomes, three of which are good.

1) She'll take the deal
2) She'll cancel the shoot (I think this would be the most likely, but hopefully she can be reasonable. At least I'm not totally the bad guy)
3) She won't take the deal but will understand and settle for two outfits (unlikely)
4) She won't take the deal, she won't cancel the shoot, she won't understand and will be mad during the shoot. (I think this is really unlikely, but obviously quite bad, I will also send over a contract to help protect against her madness).

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 00:47

biffstephens

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:09

Simply increase the price per 5 min block...I have an app on my iPhone that keeps track. Gift them the extra processing time.

I have a feeling your not going to make her day unless you give it to her (that's what he said) for free or accommodate. Good thing is in 5 years they will be thrown away to make room for the new boyfriend (too soon?)

BreitlingFan

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:13

but don't care for her "I'm sorry this is going to take more than an hour, but I'm really excited" attitude, in addition to other concerns.

That's not a problem, that's an opportunity. You need to treat it as one.

I would much rather have a client who's excited than one who doesn't want to be there, is sullen, and just wants to get it over with. You say you don't really pay attention to shooting times, but you seem to be putting your foot down because she's excited?

I don't know, man. I don't get it...

BreitlingFan

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:14

I2) She'll cancel the shoot (I think this would be the most likely, but hopefully she can be reasonable. At least I'm not totally the bad guy)

You're saying this from your perspective, not hers.

To everyone she talks to about photographers and, more specifically you, you will absolutely be the bad guy...

fotoworx

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:30

If she is so excited, isn't this the perfect time to upsell her another 1/2 to 1 hour?

Tell her how relaxing it will be for her being able to change into 3 outfits and do her her makeup etc.......but an hour isn't going to work so upsell her. Then if she doesn't want it.....it's her pulling out of the deal...not you.

Alan-Chapman

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:37

Your gut reaction is normal right, trust it. good letter.

jra

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 01:39

I don't know the entire story but I think that you're being a little too quick to cut things off. To me, it just sounds like she's excited about the shoot and wants to work in several different looks. IMO, that's better than a couple who are completely lackadaisical about the whole thing.

cdifoto

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 04:46

I am not sure how the entire conversation went, but it seems like she's just excited about all of this, no? I certainly don't sense there's a Bridesilla lurking somewhere in there. Hard to tell.

Agreed. Doesn't sound Bridezilla to me. Just sounds like an excited girl wanting to know what her money is buying exactly - since there's no contract spelling it out for her. If I didn't know what I was getting, I'd ask. If my service provider freaked out over that I'd wonder if they had all their marbles.

I always work it that they get so many hours minimum, with no promises but every attempt made to accommodate beyond that. Within that x number of hours, we're unlimited in outfits, locations, etc as long as logistics support it. It's also in writing, and signed. A contract is more than a model release and no one gets a session without signing. That's where I do put my foot down and make no exceptions - but I tell them it's for both of us, not just me. There are terms in there that cover them as well. Not a single client has ever had a problem signing a legal document that protects them and spells out exactly what they'll get and what it costs.

banquetbear

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 06:20

I have a shoot scheduled for Friday, but after getting an e-mail at 10:30 tonight my bridezilla alarm has boiled over. I should have bowed out earlier and will be smarter next time.

To give a little context, she e-mailed last week and asked if changing clothes time counts against her hour, essentially haggling for an extra ten minutes. I told her kindly and gently that is part of the hour, but I don't stick to the clock and would never cut her off at 7:00 p.m. She didn't respond to that and I checked in Monday to see if she had any questions for Friday. Tonight she e-mailed that they they're going with three outfits and closes with: "I hope this isn't too much. I know we are trying to stay as close to an hour as possible. But as you can tell we're pretty excited! Thanks again for your help :)"

I realize I could just say she has to go with two outfits, but I can just see this isn't going to end well and I'm not touching the wedding with a ten foot pool. I realize many may say this is unprofessional and it is, but we do not have a contract and this is something that can be rescheduled. I do usually work with contracts, but hadn't here since the contract mostly serves as a model release that she won't sign.

I have a draft of an e-mail below.

I am amendable to cutting it down to the first sentence of each paragraph and then just the last sentence if that's better. Eitherway, I'll contact her first thing in the morning.

...hold on: it looks like you never told her that she couldn't do three outfits. It looks like you gave her an extra ten minutes: and maybe she thinks that she can change her clothes twice in that time. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

It looks like you are the one that is communicating poorly: and to cancel based on what you describe is a bit strange to say the least.

BreitlingFan

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 08:29

Then if she doesn't want it.....it's her pulling out of the deal...not you.

Not if he sends that e-mail, it isn't...

BreitlingFan

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 08:31

teaco

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 08:59

Sorry but that seems like a massive over-reaction on your part, and I'm surprised you pulled out like that... all you needed to do was say 'i think we'll only have time for 2 but i'll try my best to squeeze in the third', and then see how it goes. Throwing in a little extra can result in a very happy client, reputation boost, and repeat business. She even asks 'i hope this isn't too much....'

Is there more to this story, because from the dialogue you have given us i don't see bridezilla at all... just someone who is excited to do the shoot and is looking to see what she can squeeze into it.

Zansho

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:16

Teaco pretty much said what I was going to say. I'd rather have an overly enthusiastic bride than a boring lackluster one. They generally will make for better and more emotional "content" photos.

JakAHearts

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:18

Ill shoot her E session. She seems nice, enthusiasic and fun! Send her my way. I bet I know someone that would love to shoot her wedding too.

souporman

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:21

Also

If we did have a contract, it would specify the pictures are property of the photographer; that shooting time is limited to an hour; and would allow for no more than two outfit changes.

If I change my outfit twice during a shoot, that's 3 outfits :)

tcphoto1

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:23

She sounded excited to shoot with you and had no clue to how long the process takes. Whether it takes an hour to shoot quality images of one or up to three outfits, you should have been more informative or charged a different fee. It sounds to me like you'd rather be off on Friday.

highergr0und

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:24

So you don't have her sign a contract, tell her that you don't stick to the clock, and now you want to cancel because she wants three outfits instead of two?

You can cancel, but just remember every day that you set yourself up for this. Hopefully you have every other weekend booked with happy clients because you're name will be slammed for doing it

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:31

I do think my gut is right here. I had started to write up a long post about how annoying she was before I realized the folly and decided to pull out. Nonetheless, I do want to avoid canceling on her the day before, so I sent this:

Sounds exciting, her name. It's great you have so many ideas and I am looking forward to the shoot. I think the roller skates are going to be awesome.

It sounds like it would be better to extend the shoot to two hours. I have to be honest and say I don't think we can fit three outfits in an hour. Just an hour is already short for an engagement session and I am worried about how rushing so much will effect everything. I know you have a budget, so I can do an extra hour for just x more. It would be x all-together for the two hours.

Do you want to do that? You can call me at my phone # with any questions.

my name

scorpio_e

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:38

I think your rewrite is MUCH better. Since she will not sign a model release, you have taken the correct path.

tlzimmerman

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:39

Looks normal to me, don't know what you are worried about. I would be excited. We do 3 outfits all the time for E shoots. The ones who want to change outfits are the ones who care about having a variety of pictures, IE the ones who are going to buy alot. Ones that show up with one outfit and want 3 poses and want out of there are the ones who just want something for the paper.

Also.....I may be in the minority, but in my experience a bridezilla's money spends just like someone who is easy to deal with. The bank can't tell the difference, and really the only way the attitude can get to me or effect me or the service I provide is if I let it.

JakAHearts

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:40

Agreed. This is much much much better. Need an assisant/voice activated lightstand?

canonguy14

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:46

I do think my gut is right here. I had started to write up a long post about how annoying she was before I realized the folly and decided to pull out. Nonetheless, I do want to avoid canceling on her the day before, so I sent this:

Good choice!

Depending on location, 1 hour and 3 outfits can be doable.

You can suggest that they come dressed to the location. Shoot for 20-ish minutes.

5 minute clothing change. Shoot for another 20-ish minutes in the 2nd outfit.

Last 5 minute clothing change. Shoot for another 20-ish minutes in the 3rd outfit.

Your total time to shoot is 1 hour and 10 minutes with three outfits. She's happy, you're happy and it could lead to more clients and future bookings.

-jq-

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:46

A bridezilla would be telling you that her mother, sister and BFF will also be coming along to advise you on what to do and how to do it. And that they will be bringing a friend with a camera just for that extra touch.

Glad you revised your message a bit...could be a win win.

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 09:59

Agreed. This is much much much better. Need an assisant/voice activated lightstand?

I imagine you don't want to drive to Harpers Ferry in West Virginia.

JakAHearts

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 10:10

What time?

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 10:12

will227457

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 10:15

no contract.......your to blame no one else if she had refused to sign a contract i would have sent her packing....

joedlh

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 10:28

A little diplomacy would be better in my opinion than blowing up the ship. You're the professional. She undoubtedly has little experience in these matters. You need to educate her. Why don't you tell her that it's important for the subjects to feel comfortable and not to be rushed? If she brings too many wardrobe changes and wants to stay within the agreed parameters of the shoot, then she's going to look uncomfortable and rushed in the shots when she should look like she's enjoying the company of her betrothed.

As for agreeing to do it without a contract, I think you opened yourself to feature creep, as we say in the software business. If you can't live with that then get a signed contract the next time. And if you can't come to terms, that's the time to bow out, not when she's gung ho to do the shoot in two days.

nicksan

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 13:31

It is 6 p.m.

She wrote back she had a feeling I would say that and that she think's I'm being reasonable. She'll talk with her other half tonight and shoot me a text with a decision. Perhaps not a bridezilla, but certainly stretching her dollar.

Are you shooting the wedding or are they evaluating you on this e-shoot?

I don't really do e-shoots individually, although ironically, I'm close to signing with a client that wants exactly that since their wedding is out of state and in 2013. Still a chance I might shoot it. Who knows? :lol: They wanted a price. I told them $xxx for 2 hours and 2 locations. They said we like your style so great, let's meet and sign the contract. Bam, done.

That said, I don't tend to constantly look at my watch when I am on a shoot. Obviously, I wouldn't let this e-shoot go on for 4 hours, for example. But 30 minutes extra? Come on man...

BTW, much better email and gathering by her reaction, I don't think she's a Bridezilla in the making. She's just excited and that's the type of client you want!

joeblack2022

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 13:45

It may be just me but when the OP edits the 1st post after a resolution the whole thread just loses its context...

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 13:56

Are you shooting the wedding or are they evaluating you on this e-shoot?

I'm not shooting the wedding at this point. I haven't attempted to book a wedding as a main photographer, yet. I'm still a young photographer.

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 13:58

It may be just me but when the OP edits the 1st post after a resolution the whole thread just loses its context...

The problem is that people will jump in weeks after the fact and respond to the original post without reading the rest of the thread. See the last two posts before nicksan's.

joeblack2022

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 14:09

The problem is that people will jump in weeks after the fact and respond to the original post without reading the rest of the thread. See the last two posts before nicksan's.

I can understand that, but wouldn't it be just as easy to add an edit to your post and say it's been resolved? Just my 2 cents. :)

TheBrick3

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 14:12

People will still give their 2 cents. It's selfish, I guess, but there's plenty of other threads to comment on.

Pekka

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 14:17

The problem is that people will jump in weeks after the fact and respond to the original post without reading the rest of the thread. See the last two posts before nicksan's.

If you delete your first post, you essentially deny all others in our community a chance to learn from your experience.

When you think the matter is closed, you have several other options than delete the first post content.

1. Report the thread and ask that it will be closed.
2. Do as joeblack2022 suggested, edit the post and say "solved".
3. Ask mods add (SOLVED) to the title

cdifoto

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 15:12

People will still give their 2 cents. It's selfish, I guess, but there's plenty of other threads to comment on.

It's selfish to take the time to offer advice, or it's selfish to edit the original post?

scorpio_e

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 15:23

The thread is pretty useless now. Nothing for anyone to learn.

nathancarter

26th of April 2012 (Thu), 21:08

Tell her she can have as many outfit changes as she likes. You won't charge her for that time as long as you get to watch her change.

mattmorgan44

27th of April 2012 (Fri), 00:46

If you delete your first post, you essentially deny all others in our community a chance to learn from your experience.

When you think the matter is closed, you have several other options than delete the first post content.

The thread is pretty useless now. Nothing for anyone to learn.

This. I read the whole thread and it took me a while to realise you deleted everything, could have been more helpful if the first post was there. I am in the business section to learn, not to throw in my two cents so I can feel good about myself.

Please leave the first post/put it back, or close the thread and say DELETED, RESOLVED.