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PFlor
10th of June 2003 (Tue), 22:40
I posted this also in the Software forum:

I just noticed that my images when opened in Photoshop look more vivid compared to opening it in another program such as ACDSee, where the image's colors are more desaturated. Is this normal? All images are using the sRGB color space and I already have my monitor calibrated using Adobe Gamma.

hypokondriak
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 01:17
PFlor wrote:
I posted this also in the Software forum:

I just noticed that my images when opened in Photoshop look more vivid compared to opening it in another program such as ACDSee, where the image's colors are more desaturated. Is this normal? All images are using the sRGB color space and I already have my monitor calibrated using Adobe Gamma.

This is likely caused by which color profile you are using... try not using the embedded color profile and see your results (or if you aren't using it, try using it).

Bob_Prague
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 02:40
I would think that it's because Photoshop is calibrated with Adobe Gamma but ACDSee isn't.. I had similar problems when making websites, that creations in Photoshop looked entirely different when viewed on Internet Explorer.

Adobe Gamma is intended to (I believe) make sure that what everybody sees on their monitors is the same. So the same picture viewed on different computers - running Photoshop and Adobe Gamma - would look the same.

I don't know what the solution to this will be in the future, does anybody know if this problem is only with conventional monitors, or if it's still there for LCD displays and others?

PFlor
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 02:55
If I turn off Color Management in Photoshop then images inside and out look the same. But what I don't understand is why should there be an increase in saturation in Photoshop when an sRGB color space is being used?

So when preparing prints for a photolab, which application will closely resemble the final print - Photoshop or any program outside of it?

DKeon
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 10:56
Photoshop will. Just be sure to have the right colourspace set up for your workspace. In Photoshop's View menu there's a Proof Setup option where you can define which colourspace to use. Depending on the lab, you'll probably want to use a CMYK profile and also make sure your photo is colour corrected as such.

marcel wouters
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 11:18
Pflor,
Photoshop is completely color space aware!
It use a workspace for internal work, an embeded profile to map the image to the workspace but also to the monitor profile generated by the adobe gamma with the "description" name "Adobe Monitor Settings" .
Many software like browser's window etc are not "image profile aware" so it just display the image with the really contained RGB values! The gamma value for a PC CRT is normally around 2.5 and 1.72 for Mac.
sRGB is a 2.2 gamma space
What profile is set in Photoshop Edit/ColorSettings/WorkingSpaces/RGB?
What profile if any is active set in the ControlPanel/Display/DisplayProperties/Advanced-button, Color-Management -tab?

PFlor
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 11:30
marcel wouters wrote:
What profile is set in Photoshop Edit/ColorSettings/WorkingSpaces/RGB?
What profile if any is active set in the ControlPanel/Display/DisplayProperties/Advanced-button, Color-Management -tab?


Photoshop is set to Web Graphics Default (sRGB) and the profile that's used in the Display Properties/ Color Management tab is the same profile that was generated by Adobe Gamma. So what you're saying is that Photoshop is displaying sRGB embedded images accurately?

marcel wouters
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 13:20
Pflor,
please elaborate and use the right term!
What revision of PS do you use?
What is your working space (photoshop is set to sRGB just say nothing to me!).
What you do to turn off the PS color management?
From where comes your image and what options are selected at open time (depend of ps revision).
If you open the image without any color management the image enter your working space and are displayed as is, if you assign sRGB and it looks well it's good but if you save as is it's bad you must convert to sRGB before saving to change the RGB value in the image! Now a not profile aware software receive the sRGB "RGB" value.

Did you modify the adobe gamma setting, if yes did you change the description name? or the file name?
Did you load sRGB profile and modify it?
Please start with the beginning and give exact details settings and your workflow step by step.

PFlor
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 14:00
Marcel,
I'll try to be as detailed as I can without getting too lengthy:

- Viewsonic G790 monitor
- Photoshop 7.01 running under Windows 2000 SP3
- under Edit | Color Settings I am using 'Web Graphics Defaults' under 'Settings':
RGB: sRGB IEC61966-2.1
CMYK: U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2
Gray: Gray Gamma 2.2
Spot: Dot Gain 20%, etc..
- what I do to turn off color management is under the same dialog box under 'Settings', select the 'Color Management Off' setting.

For Adobe Gamma I first loaded my viewsonic monitor profile as a starting point and accepted the values for phosphors, white point, etc.. The only thing I changed was the profile description, the gamma value - from 2.98 to Windows default 2.2, and adjusted the individual RGB gamma sliders a bit. Then I saved the new profile under a new name. This new profile now also shows up under Display Properties/Settings/Color Management tab.

I'm taking a standard jpeg (or RAW converted file) from the G3 and opening it up in Photoshop. The Photoshop image looks vivid while viewing it another image viewer or web browser looks a little desaturated.

Hope I'm a little more clear this time. From the replies I've been getting in the Software forum this seems to be normal.

CyberDyneSystems
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 14:03
Check the reponses in the Software forum,. it has all the answers there. It is not an issue of calibration or profiles,. it is the different software apps,..

marcel wouters
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 15:01
Pflor,
O.K. now i better understand your problem.
I never use the "web default"
No it's not normal, it's possible to adjust your PC so that the unadjusted image (browser) looks like (not 100%)the PS sRGB (as i understand you have a huge difference) So you can figure out what the web result would be.
I test like you with web default and with and without colour management! There is not discernable difference!
I use to start monitor profiling the generic "nativePC=Trinitron D65 G2.50" that is very near PC standard.
Some parameters!
Native PC (mean value) is more near gamma 2.5 than 2.2 (sRGB is a gamma 2.2 space) this is confirmed by your monitor parameters gamma 2.98.
If i undrestand you well you get a specific profile for your monitor! So use it do not set the gamma to 2.2. A specific profile is specially designed for the hardware.
Setting the gamma to 2.2 will give you a bad result!
When you save it what name did you gave as "description".
When you look in PS edit/color/setting list is this the same name appearing together with RGB Monitor - XXXXXX
If it's o.K. try increasing the gamma value in adobe gamma and compare image from PS with microsoft photo editor until they match.
I am curious about the result (as i have a eye calibrated TFT) if the resulting gamma would be near 2.9 or 2.5?

PFlor
11th of June 2003 (Wed), 21:17
Marcel,
I think this discussion is becoming more complex than it should be. Maybe I should rephrase my original question:

"Are sRGB embedded images supposed to look identical when viewed in different applications, including Photoshop?"

To answer part of your question - yes, I do have a monitor profile for my monitor. The problem with using it alone is that it has a gamma of 2.98. With this gamma value images look fine in Photoshop but when viewing in a browser or other application the images look too dark. Adobe gamma has solved the brightness problem and is identical gamma-wise to images opened in Photoshop, except that the Photoshop images are slightly more saturated.

marcel wouters
12th of June 2003 (Thu), 00:38
Pflor,
quote
"Are sRGB embedded images supposed to look identical when viewed in different applications, including Photoshop?"

There is always differences but it's possible to keep it minimal.
Your problem comes from the big difference between your monitor gamma and the sRGB space gamma (about "0.8").
Please read the AIM pages on monitor profiling
http://www.aim-dtp.net/index.htm
and try to replace the sRGB profile with the NativePC profile.
In this case your image profile (convert from sRGB to NativePC) would have the same gamma as the monitor profile! This should fix the gamma difference problem!
Now how it's looks on all other PC trhu the web is another story it depends on monitor adjustements.
If your're too far from the mean value (with your profiled equipment) you must edit your image by applying a gamma compensation curve then resave it.
Don't keep too much attention to the original jpeg color value as they are far from the reality (at least with the G3) generally too much saturated!