To all you glamour photographers...question about a potential model

[FlipsidE]

So, tonight, I was out spinnin at a club here in town. The waitress there was very flirty, and, IMO, very good looking. Not sure about her skin because I haven't seen her in full light. But, her body is definitely suited for glamour work.

So, I showed her some of my shots as well as asked her how much she would charge for an hour to let me photograph her. Now, keep in mind that this girl used to be stripper at local club and that she has never modeled at all (asked her that before I told her I was a photographer). She quoted me a price of $400 for an hour and $250 for a half hour. Now, a VIP lap dance room is one thing...but sitting for an amatuer glamour photographer trying to break into the biz and having no modeling experience...that seemed excessive to say the least.

Unfortunately, I found her a bit cocky after I told her that. She asked to see my work again, and proceeded to start comparing her body to theirs...saying how much better she was and how she'd look even better if she started workin out again.

Maybe I just approached the entire situation wrong, but I just got a bad vibe from this girl. She didn't seem like she'd be all that fun to work with.

Any suggestions on how to handle these situations in the future? Do these kinds of things just happen when approaching models for glamour work (have to take the bad with the good)? How do I kindly break the news to her that I won't pay that much for an amateur model?

Thanks in advance

FlipsidE

[cmM]

for a model with no experience that's crazy, I'd never pay that much. Kindly explain to her what the going rate for experienced models is in your area, putting an accent on Experienced.

Are you sure she understood what the price was for? Maybe she was reffering to other stuff :D

[FlipsidE]

I wish she was referring to "other stuff" ;) (I kid). But, I could tell by the conversation that she didn't want anything but money for her time to be in front of the camera. IMO, that's just a crazy amount. I would like to get some test shots of her...but I'd say like $100 sitting fee for her max for an hour...esp for being completely unexperienced.

FlipsidE

[Halliday]

If you really want pix of her, I'd offer a "test shoot" where she gets a cd of the good photos and that's it.
I have met VERY few women in my life that I would pay $400/hr, except my son's doctor.

[DocFrankenstein]

If you really want pix of her, I'd offer a "test shoot" where she gets a cd of the good photos and that's it.
I have met VERY few women in my life that I would pay $400/hr, except my son's doctor.
oh... what kind of tricks does she do? ;)

Seems excessive and brass rail experience doesn't really count for anything in photography.

The bad vibes probably came from her starting to look at you as a client probably

[PhotosGuy]

How do I kindly break the news to her that I won't pay that much for an amateur model? How about, "Well, your rate is the same as my rate, & since..." (In descending order, depending on whether you want to blow her off or not)
"... I'll be giving you prints, you'll end up owing me money!"
"... I'll be donating my time to make you look good, you should donate yours, too."
"... I'll be donating my time & giving you prints, you should donate yours, too."
etc. ;)

[EOSX]

$400 per hour? For that I better get more than photo shots from her. :) :)

[FlipsidE]

I've been to my fair share of strip clubs in my day and I live across the street from a stripper So, I know that $250 for a half hour of private lap dances and $400 for an hour of private dances is honestly about fair...esp considering the club she came from. Though, I don't think it's at all fair for a photography session.

PhotosGuy...I'll probably be taking your advice next time I run into her. This has now convinced me to get a second cell phone line, though. Since work pays for a large portion of my bill per month, I can't turn my main cell off. But, if I had a second cell and a second line, I could turn that one off and let voicemail handle it all if I just got sick of hearing from someone.

FlipsidE

[pushtoexit]

"Thanks for your willingness, but I'm not really looking for a professional dancer, artistically speaking models who can express their beauty through their eyes and jestures are more interesting to me right now than just another nude."

QED

[waldograce]

I'd say it's a matter of where she comes from.
I think that's what she is use to making.
Basically she's saying that if a guy wants me to take off my clothes then I'll do it for what I'm used to making.
While she hasn't been a model, she is use to showing off her body.
My guess is if she is really that good looking you'd be happy if you did a shoot with her (just maybe not if you had to pay $400 for an hour.)
I would have asked her if she was interested in doing modeling work.
If so I would have shown her (if you could get her to stop by your studio - or given her the URL if not) OMP and suggested that you could help her set up a portfolio (do a couple of shoots with her to get some good shots for her OMP profile.)
Usually someone who’s worked in that line have heard all kinds of offers for work.
They can be a little jaded. You might take it as a complement that she agreed to pose for you at all.

[Mark_Cohran]

I use amateur models quite a lot. I usually pay anywhere from $25-$50 per hour for a rank amateur (if I pay them, they have to buy prints from me if they want them), and between $50 -$100 per hour for someone with experience. If they have an excellent book and have been published, I might pay more. It depends on what I think the salability of the final images will be. $400 an hour for an amateur model is totally out of the ballpark. I don't care how pretty she is.

Mark

[queenbee288]

Tell her that the guys at the clubs paying that kind of money for her to take her clothes off are intoxicated and that tends to loosen up their wallet as she well knows.

[underoath]

I wish she was referring to "other stuff" ;) (I kid). But, I could tell by the conversation that she didn't want anything but money for her time to be in front of the camera. IMO, that's just a crazy amount. I would like to get some test shots of her...but I'd say like $100 sitting fee for her max for an hour...esp for being completely unexperienced.

FlipsidE

Maybe she read you wrong and thinks "photographing" is code for her stripper work.:lol:;)

[RockSlut]

It seems that the normal laws of market force are at play here. She says $400/hr. You then make a decision whether what she has to offer is worth the investment. Supply and demand in action.

No offence intended, it just seems logical to me.

[Big_B]

I wish she was referring to "other stuff" ;) (I kid). But, I could tell by the conversation that she didn't want anything but money for her time to be in front of the camera. IMO, that's just a crazy amount. I would like to get some test shots of her...but I'd say like $100 sitting fee for her max for an hour...esp for being completely unexperienced.

FlipsidE


The high price either indicates that she doesn't know what a model is normally paid. After all, you probably have a much better idea about the going price for an inexperienced model than she does. You might also want to think about the opportunity cost for her. She could take her cloths off in a club for $450, so why accept less to do it for you?

Alternatively it might indicate that she doesn't really want to do it and quoting a high price is an easy way of getting rid of you.

[Tlee05]

She might think you might what her to model in a porno shoot?... etc

[FlipsidE]

Alternatively it might indicate that she doesn't really want to do it and quoting a high price is an easy way of getting rid of you. I wish this was the case. That would make things much easier at the moment. After I showed her some of my work, she seemed to become VERY interested in it. And, again, she bothered my buddy the rest of the night while I wasn't there about it.

FlipsidE

[FlipsidE]

It seems that the normal laws of market force are at play here. She says $400/hr. You then make a decision whether what she has to offer is worth the investment. Supply and demand in action.

No offence intended, it just seems logical to me.No offense taken. You may very well be absolutely right. In that case, is she worth $400? No...not at all. I have a feeling she'd be very difficult to work with, very much against taking direction, and while she has a nice body and is pretty, she's not worth $400/hour...not yet at least.

FlipsidE

[FlipsidE]

She might think you might what her to model in a porno shoot?... etcI don't think so. She actually seemed very much against lingerie and nudes unless she was getting paid a lot of money for it. By the tone of the conversation, I'm thinking more than $400/hour to go with lingerie/nude.

FlipsidE

[Longwatcher]

Okay I hire models all the time.
Nude Fetish models.

$400 an hour is a rate for an adult activities shoot. Meaning actual acts between two individuals shown. And even that may be high for still photography, but low for video. I don't do those.

Model rates are as follows based on my experience:

Not including travel
- For a single 1 hour the going rates are $100-$150
- For multiple hours it gets cheaper.
- I have shot a Model who has appeared in Hustler Magazine (twice, but not centerfold) for $600 for 8 hours, this included $40 of travel compensation and a $60 tip. And she posed in a manner I normally would not have aimed for - bonus.
- I had an opportunity to shoot The Penthouse Pet of 2005 for $500 for 5 hours, nude in bondage. Seriously. (would have too if I could have used the pictures for more then my portfolio (I shoot freelance content and she would only agree if for my portolfio or a specific web site) - somewhat regret not doing it, but beyond the model I would have had to rent studio space in DC $200 and have at least makeup assistant on hand $100 plus my travel costs to get to DC ($60) and props, food, expected cost around $1000 and I can only use for portfolio - not worth it - did I mention I somewhat regret not doing it anyway)

- I had a shoot set up with a model who has appeared in Playboy video's for $500 plus travel ($560 total) fell through because she was no longer traveling to Virginia - Mom getting divorce)

- I typically pay between $300 and $500 for a 5 hour nude session. So that is $60-100 per hour for multiple hours.

This Friday (murphy permitting) I have a two model shoot. 5 hours, my budget is $600 for both models. Both will be nude at some point.

I will note that I often get a discount rate by providing the model the ability to use up to 5 shots for her portfolio and the first hour of a five hour shoot is usually non-nude just for the fun of it. But there is no way I would pay $400 an hour for just a nude model, especially one with no experience.

BTW: Artist models, who have to sit in front of a painter typically only get $25-30 an hour for multi-hour nude session. So rates between lap dancers, photography models and artists models are definately not comparable.

Just my experience,

[Longwatcher]

One note I almost forgot, I also occasionally get TFCD models who do full nude. So cost was a CD for 2-3 hours. I can't use for freelance content, but can use for portfolio. If the person in question has never modeled before then TFCD would be a fair rate for a first shoot.

TFCD = Time For CD (model's time in return for a CD-R of images taken that she can use for her portfolio)

[FlipsidE]

Longwatcher,

Those are rates I can deal with. I honestly figure TFP or TFCD would be the best way to start, but I highly doubt she would sit for that (to be honest...I don't think I'd enjoy working with her anyway, so it works out for the best). I'll be keeping my eyes open though.

Thanks

FlipsidE

[rdenney]

Just remember that the price is set by the buyer not the seller. If a seller wants too high a price, take your business elsewhere. If she wants the pictures for herself, the price will come down. I would have left her a card, saying "if you need pictures and decide you'd be willing to trade your time for some prints, let me know". And then walk away. If you look like you are interested only for your own gratification, you'll get the lap-dance rate. Anything you do to try to persuade her to lower her price will make her less likely to do so.

Rick "who has hired all sorts of people but never a nude model" Denney

[Big_B]

I wish this was the case. That would make things much easier at the moment. After I showed her some of my work, she seemed to become VERY interested in it. And, again, she bothered my buddy the rest of the night while I wasn't there about it.

FlipsidE

If she's interested, tell her the going rate and leave it with her (might wan't to provide her with some evidence e.g. printed rates from OMP or something). If she's not prepared to accept what you want to pay, then it's not going to work out and no hard feelings.

[Longwatcher]

Longwatcher,

Those are rates I can deal with. I honestly figure TFP or TFCD would be the best way to start, but I highly doubt she would sit for that (to be honest...I don't think I'd enjoy working with her anyway, so it works out for the best). I'll be keeping my eyes open though.

Thanks

FlipsidE

I am single never married so if she would do nude TFCD and she looks good, I would almost always be willing to give it a go :P
However, if I am paying I expect a reasonably professional model and the ability to use the pictures as needed. The business model does not support $400/hour as far as I have been able to determine so far, it barely supports $100/hour. I the photographer have to make something off of the session as well and it takes at least 3-4 times as long to edit as it does to take the pictures, unless I get a flawless model (ain't found one yet).

[FlipsidE]

I would have left her a card, saying "if you need pictures and decide you'd be willing to trade your time for some prints, let me know".That's one mistake I made, right there...and I know it. I went in very unprepared. I have business cards now on order and should be here w/in the next couple of days. But, I went to the club that night with zero business cards. That one is my fault...I'm willing to admit to it. But, I'm also not going to let it happen again.

FlipsidE

[FlipsidE]

I am single never married so if she would do nude TFCD and she looks good, I would almost always be willing to give it a go :PI'm single and never married myself. And I would be more than willing to do just lingerie and swimsuit shots for TFCD. She doesn't have to be nude. I wouldn't even mind taking a few fashion shots just to add to my portfolio as I'm starting out. But, I think the $400 quote was for something like fashion shots. I think she wants more for semi-nude to full nude. Which, IMO, is just way too much.

FlipsidE

[DSMITH131]

I dont think i can say on here what i would have told her but it wouldn't be anything nice
450 an hour just call Tyra Banks you might come out cheaper

[waldograce]

I don't think she is aware of what the going rates are.
My guess is she was excited about the idea of making some cash.
She used what he had as a ready reference (what she used to make an hour in the strip club.)
You can't blame her for that. You can either set her straight about the rates normally paid (a good idea in any event) and see if she's interested, or tell her that you're not interested.
If you think she would be a pain then I would skip it.
Your time costs money too.

[jukas]

That's one mistake I made, right there...and I know it. I went in very unprepared. I have business cards now on order and should be here w/in the next couple of days. But, I went to the club that night with zero business cards. That one is my fault...I'm willing to admit to it. But, I'm also not going to let it happen again.

FlipsidE

It's not too late to fix it really. Next time you see her (or talk to her) just tell her you would still be open to shooting her, however her asking price exceeds industry standards. Give (or mail) her a copy of your paid modeling rates and your business card and tell her if she decides she's interested to let you know.

[TongChen]

Try this with women like that.

"Can I buy you drink or should I just give you money?"

Its materialist society that make people like that. Once show girl, always show girl. Once business man, always business man. Once slave owner, always slave owner.

Best model is peasant girl. They work cheap but they take long to get ready.

[DocFrankenstein]

Holy...

For 500 bucks a day it'd better be a playboy pet or something similar. If it's just a Jane across the street wanting 500 bucks, then economic forces are directing you to different countries. For 500 bucks you just might be able to buy a round trip ticket and you'll have a TON of models available and posing for you.

[fstop212]

You can swing a dead cat and get pretty girls to pose for you. I would have told her to go scratch. I have no tolorence for cockiness.

[paulbuceta]

This is kinda funny.

Usually I tell them I charge $400.00 per hour but would be willing to waive my fee because of how inspired I am by them... (cough)

[Karl Johnston]

I feel so underpaid right now.

[Mark1]

I would let this model go. You keep saying you think it will go badly. So let her wallow in herself. Either she will give up and move on, or she will came back and lower her rates.

Advice with other models for in the future... I would ignore the fact that they said "for each hour" when they quote a high price. And follow their reply with " Oh, I don't mean an all day shoot. I was only thinking for an hour or so". They hopefully will quickly realize they out priced them selves and may come back with a reasonable price.

New models see the top models can make $10,000 a day...... " well, I'm as pretty as she is, I have to be worth at least $500." They don't realize some models work years before they get paid anything significant.

[René Damkot]

I would let this model go.

Since it's now 3 years ago, he might have ;)

[Mark1]

WOW, how did this get on my "new posts" list?

[SpeedkingXSi]

like you said...a potential model....by her personality you just eliminated what tiny chance she have to break in the business....stock up people are hard to work with anywhere

[Kagemaru]

I never pay models.

[Longwatcher]

Since this thread came up, I feel I should mention...
Over the past 3 years. The price for quality models went up slightly, while the return went down dramatecally. However very recently for some 'mysterious' reason the cost to hire models has been going down. Unfortnately the return has also been continueing down. Maybe with luck the return on investment will start going up again before the cost of models does. I doubt it though.

[Longwatcher]

I never pay models.

Sometimes, I pay; sometimes they pay me; sometimes it costs a CD or DVD.

But for doing nude fetish shoots that I intend to sell sets of, I find it a lot easier both getting models and satisfying legal requirements to pay them for their time and effort in some fashion. I have a couple models willing to do share profit, but otherwise I pay them the going rate.

Fine art though, even if I intend to sell, I can occasionally get free models willing to pose nude.

[Kagemaru]

I haven't read the whole thread but if you're just starting out, why not hit up girls on MM to do TF work.. once you get your chops down, you'll get better looking models. After a while, if you continue improving, you can actually charge or you'll be picked up to get paid magazines or what not.

[smurffman]

If she is an amateur, she probably had no clue how much to charge. In the future, I would advise telling her how much you would pay. You can haggle from there.

[bigsexy]

In my experience the best way to approach potential models, in a scenario such as you described, is to let them know I'm a photographer and show them examples of my work. That's it. If they're interested they'll follow-up with questions or a comment like, "I love taking pictures" or whatever. The bottom line is that I'd much rather have a potential model take baby steps towards me than for me to jump after them. I guess I feel that this tactic keeps me in a position of control. It also puts me in a position where I'm helping them rather than they're doing me a favor.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this. I just find it's always better to work with someone that's eager about working rather than someone that sits back and makes outrageous demands, as the individual in your instance appears to be doing. I've never been satisfied from a shoot that involved an individual such as you described. Better to pass than to have a bad experience.

Hope this helps.

Dave