Last night's Football... 300mm & 400mm... ISO3200

[gmen]

Hmmm. My last football job before Christmas. On a relatively mild evening there was no huge deadline pressure. Therefore I dabbled in RAW for a change, and let BreezeBrowser's RAW converter do the business for these pics - then resized and added a tadge of sharpening before uploading. It reminded me why I don't shoot in RAW that often :lol: but at least I had time for a cup of tea (or two) while the PC went to work. A mixture of shots at 300mm and 400mm:

Some thud and blunder at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm002.JPG

An aerial mullarkey at 300mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm003.JPG

Strictly Come Dancing at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm005.jpg

Searching for a route into the next round at 300mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm004.JPG

A hefty thwack from behind at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm007.JPG

Keeping your eyes on the ball at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm009.jpg

Ready to deliver the karate chop to the backside at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm001.jpg

The last gasp extra-time winning goal, again at 400mm...

http://www.tgsphoto.co.uk/forum_images/hmmm008.JPG

Thanks for looking!

---- Gavin

[LMP]

LOL...great captions and great shots, love how the mark II handles iso 3200!

[adam*]

Nice shots... why don't you shoot in RAW?

[Boggy]

Away to Kiddy next round, it won't be mild there.:)

Great shots as normal

Shaun

[gmen]

LOL...great captions and great shots, love how the mark II handles iso 3200!Thanks Mark! It was a long night... I was getting ready for penalties.. plus the ref picked up an injury and was replaced at half-time :lol:

EDIT: Just to add that the BreezeBrowser interface has some sort of built-in noise reduction during the conversion process... for some of the images I had this set to 'OFF'... and for some of them I set it to 'HIGH'... hmmmm... not 100% sure which is which now :lol: I think #2 and #6 are on the 'HIGH' setting ;) It certainly doesn't seem to overdo the effect... although there is a slight 'plastic man' appearance... it's rather like using a subtle burst of Neat Image...

---- Gavin

[Croasdail]

So let me go technical on ya... at the distance you are shooting at... how deep is your DOF? Reason I ask is in the first few shots you have enough DOF to get a couple of players stacked in focus, and then focus drops of very sharply giving a very nice neutral background. Fourth shot looks like both players barely make it into the shot. Where I am going with all this is it seems that with the 400, your DOF drops off much faster then with the 300... or I could just be seeing things.

[Simon Harrison]

Great set of shots as always Gavin, but I have to say the captions you write to go with the shots are just as good. Couple of these ones had me laughing out loud.

I am impressed with the lack of noise with these shots. Nailing the exposure must be critical at ISO3200.

Cheers,

Simon.

[gmen]

So let me go technical on ya... at the distance you are shooting at... how deep is your DOF? Reason I ask is in the first few shots you have enough DOF to get a couple of players stacked in focus, and then focus drops of very sharply giving a very nice neutral background. Fourth shot looks like both players barely make it into the shot. Where I am going with all this is it seems that with the 400, your DOF drops off much faster then with the 300... or I could just be seeing things.The DoF is pretty slim with both lenses. Obviously the working distance comes into play as well...

Shots #1, #4, #5 and #6 are pretty much the full-frame images.

#2 and #3 are full-height vertical crops of horizontal images.

#7 and #8 represent about 70% of the full-frame image.

That might explain to some extent what you are seeing. At the 'average' shooting distance for football, the DoF on the 400mm is going to be around a couple of feet max. At a distance of 30ft, the DoF is a couple of inches! This is all at f/2.8 on 1.3x crop body.

By way of direct comparison:

300mm DoF f/2.8 at 100ft is just over 4ft
400mm Dof f/2.8 at 100ft is just over 2ft

It's wafer thin.

EDIT: Also, the distance to the background may also come into play... some are shot across the (shorter) width of the pitch... and some are shot at an angle across the (longer) length of the pitch.

---- Gavin

[Croasdail]

300mm DoF f/2.8 at 100ft is just over 4ft
400mm Dof f/2.8 at 100ft is just over 2ft

And I asume with that, the rate at which the background becomes more difuse is increased proportionally - for example - and I don't even know how you measure this but if something was 30% difuse 20 feet behind the subject with a 300 mm, then I am supposing at 20 feet with a 400 the background would be 60% difuse - giving more isolation of the subject at the same distance... if I am explaining myself correctly. Am I making any sense here? Net-Net, it seems you get a better blured background given the same distance with the 400 then you do the 300.... or I could be just blowing smoke... who knows.

Thanks....

[gmen]

Nice shots... why don't you shoot in RAW?Thanks adam! I shoot in jpeg much of the time to minimise post-processing time when on a tight deadline... have a read of post #10 (amongst others) over in my Q&A thread (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=116971).

---- Gavin

[gmen]

it seems you get a better blured background given the same distance with the 400 then you do the 300Yep Mark, that sounds about right... next time I'm out and about with both lenses, I'll try to remember to shoot a couple of real-world examples by way of illustration - i.e. shots at the same distance at 300 and 400 wide open etc...

---- Gavin

[grego]

That's some pretty good noise for 3200.

same distance with the 400 then you do the 300.... or I could be just blowing smoke... who knows.

Thanks....

That should happen by way of filling the frame more. The more you fill the frame, and closer the lens focus gets to the person, the more that it'll phase out a lot of the DOF.

The 400 is more zoomed in so it's picking up more of what you want to see at the cost of filling the frame more of course.

[QUASIPHOTO]

Great work Gavin. Top notch. Thanks for inspiring me to always try and get better.

[BigDan]

Away to Kiddy next round, it won't be mild there.:)

Great shots as normal

Shaun


Nice shots as always, Gavin.

:p It's always nice to see the opposition playing prearing to lose :p .

Kiddy are on a roll at the moment. We took Barnsley out of the LDV this week, and after only just loosing our manager.

Imagine it....Half time and the Harriers subs are warming up shooting into the north end goal. Taiwo Atieno slices high and wide......straight at the bloke next to me, hitting him in the arm.
Unfortunatly he's holding a cup of the famous Aggborough Soup. Can you guess what happened next?? Yes, well you can't say it wasn't mild and my jacket stank. Answers on a postcard if you can guess what in flaming h*ll they put in that stuff.

[Spencerj]

Great pictures. Grays are doing well at the moment eh?. I take pictures as well, For East Thurrock United and ive also covered a couple of thurrock matches. I use rather modest equipment though lol (see my sig) I supply pictures to Neil at the Thurrock Gazette (News Quest Essex) and im also the official photographer for the club - Newsquest have offered me some grays games. I see from your site that you have been to ETU im sure we must of met or at least passed at some point. :)

[Raceshot]

Great shots, I like your tight crops. The only thing that bothers me a bit is the noise in these pictures; why did you use ISO 3200, did you have such bad light conditions ?

[gmen]

Away to Kiddy next round, it won't be mild there.:)

Great shots as normal

Shaun
Cheers Shaun!

I hope we decide to cover the game (photographically speaking)... if Grays go there and lose, it won't be news for long as they'll be able 'to focus on promotion to the League' :lol: ... if they win then it's 'business as usual'... Hmmmm....

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Great shots, I like your tight crops. The only thing that bothers me a bit is the noise in these pictures; why did you use ISO 3200, did you have such bad light conditions ? Thanks Raceshot...

It would be great to avoid using ISO3200 I have to agree... however, that still only gives me 1/500s at f/2.8 in the bright patches... for some parts of the pitch I have to dial the shutter speed down to 1/400s or even 1/320s... far from ideal I'm afraid :lol: I need some of your Belgian Premiership lighting!

---- Gavin

[gmen]

Great set of shots as always Gavin, but I have to say the captions you write to go with the shots are just as good. Couple of these ones had me laughing out loud.
I am impressed with the lack of noise with these shots. Nailing the exposure must be critical at ISO3200.
Thanks Simon.

Football often provides plenty of material for, errrr, 'amusing' captions :lol: although I'm not best known as a comedian!

As for ISO3200, as long as you're not underexposing, the noise is acceptable... it could be better but it's not half bad. I'm just waiting for the camera that provides ISO3200 peformance that looks like the current ISO1600 setting... and allows for an ISO6400 setting with the noise of ISO3200.

I won't hold my breath ;)

---- Gavin

[Raceshot]

Thanks Raceshot...

It would be great to avoid using ISO3200 I have to agree... however, that still only gives me 1/500s at f/2.8 in the bright patches... for some parts of the pitch I have to dial the shutter speed down to 1/400s or even 1/320s... far from ideal I'm afraid :lol: I need some of your Belgian Premiership lighting!

---- Gavin

I work at ISO 800 and my shutter speeds are most of the time 1/500, at a few stadiums you could get 1/640 or 1/800, but that's exceptional. With a 20D it's allmost impossible to go to a higher iso, even now I find the noise sometimes disturbing. On the other hand, working in raw gives me the ability to have a bit more control on the light settings compared to jpeg, so that helps sometimes.

[gmen]

Great pictures. Grays are doing well at the moment eh?. I take pictures as well, For East Thurrock United and ive also covered a couple of thurrock matches. I use rather modest equipment though lol (see my sig) I supply pictures to Neil at the Thurrock Gazette (News Quest Essex) and im also the official photographer for the club - Newsquest have offered me some grays games. I see from your site that you have been to ETU im sure we must of met or at least passed at some point. :)Hi Spencer...

I'm sure I've seen your name credited in the Rocks' programme... and, yep, we must have crossed paths at one time or another.

Glad to hear Mr Speight is providing you with some work ;) the Gazette normally send Dave Henderson to the New Rec, but I'm sure he'll enjoy an afternoon off here and there :lol: I'll be at the two Grays vs Canvey games over the festive period... maybe see you at one or both of them?

---- Gavin

[gmen]

I work at ISO 800 and my shutter speeds are most of the time 1/500, at a few stadiums you could get 1/640 or 1/800, but that's exceptional. With a 20D it's allmost impossible to go to a higher iso, even now I find the noise sometimes disturbing. On the other hand, working in raw gives me the ability to have a bit more control on the light settings compared to jpeg, so that helps sometimes.Crikey... ISO800 is a dreamworld for me. I've tried underexposing at ISO1600 in RAW, but under this sort of lighting I find that the noise in the shadow areas is diabolical... I'd rather nail the exposure at ISO3200.

My main client is the newspaper, so a bit of noise is not a major problem. I also shoot for the club's programme and, in all honesty, the images reproduce well even when used on the cover... so I'm a bit less 'paranoid' about noise than I used to be.

---- Gavin

[Spencerj]

Hi Spencer...

I'm sure I've seen your name credited in the Rocks' programme... and, yep, we must have crossed paths at one time or another.

Glad to hear Mr Speight is providing you with some work ;) the Gazette normally send Dave Henderson to the New Rec, but I'm sure he'll enjoy an afternoon off here and there :lol: I'll be at the two Grays vs Canvey games over the festive period... maybe see you at one or both of them?

---- Gavin

Yeah, its a shame they were not the other way around as im spending christmas in canvey but canvey are at grays boxing day. The 2nd of jan is my birthday and if anything ill be covering the rocks. If i do go to either game it will just be for practice and fun... Next time your at ETU say hello, you cant miss me, fat bloke with 350D! ;) Just heard from a friend that one of my pics is in the paper this week... not sure which one, its from a friendly with ETU and Hornchurch. ETU were running out some new players. I really struggle at rookery hill, as you know the floodlights are not the best (far from it!) and the 350D only goes to 1600 so i have to shoot really slow shutter speeds and hi film speeds and then i remove the noise with neat image.

BTW im curious, can i ask, do you have a press pass or do you pay to go to games? I dont have a press pass but have automatic entrance to all rocks games of course and neil's really good and if i say i want to go to a game he sorts out entrance for me... im thinking about speaking to neil about some thurrock games as i work in purfleet and finish work at 7 so its ideal really. Neil has mentioned grays but to be honest id be too embarased to turn up with my kit! ;)

[gmen]

Yeah, its a shame they were not the other way around as im spending christmas in canvey but canvey are at grays boxing day. The 2nd of jan is my birthday and if anything ill be covering the rocks. If i do go to either game it will just be for practice and fun... Next time your at ETU say hello, you cant miss me, fat bloke with 350D! ;)

BTW im curious, can i ask, do you have a press pass or do you pay to go to games? I dont have a press pass but neil's really good and if i say i want to go to a game he normally sorts out entrance for me.
I'll certainly say hi next time I'm over at Rookery Hill!

I'm generally shooting on behalf of the Recorder and I gain access to matches on their behalf.

For Conference games, you will need a 'Conference Licence' to take pics... and the club will still need to receive a fax/e-mail from the publication you are working for to gain accreditation. The Gazette probably have an 'arrangement' with Grays, but your name will inevitably have to be on Mr Woodward's list to get into the ground with a camera.

Below Conference level, it's a bit more or a free-for-all :lol: However, I'm (reasonably) well known at the local grounds in the area, so access isn't a problem... and, most times, the paper sends a reporter to the games I'm shooting as well.

I do hold a Press Card. You can get one via the Newspaper Society - http://www.newspapersoc.org.uk/default.asp?cid=300 - Neil will need to endorse the paperwork. It doesn't provide automatic entry into anything :lol: but it does give a little bit of credibility if you encounter a clipboard-touting jobsworth on the gate!

---- Gavin

[Spencerj]

I'll certainly say hi next time I'm over at Rookery Hill!

I'm generally shooting on behalf of the Recorder and I gain access to matches on their behalf.

For Conference games, you will need a 'Conference Licence' to take pics... and the club will still need to receive a fax/e-mail from the publication you are working for to gain accreditation. The Gazette probably have an 'arrangement' with Grays, but your name will inevitably have to be on Mr Woodward's list to get into the ground with a camera.

Below Conference level, it's a bit more or a free-for-all :lol: However, I'm (reasonably) well known at the local grounds in the area, so access isn't a problem... and, most times, the paper sends a reporter to the games I'm shooting as well.

I do hold a Press Card. You can get one via the Newspaper Society - http://www.newspapersoc.org.uk/default.asp?cid=300 - Neil will need to endorse the paperwork. It doesn't provide automatic entry into anything :lol: but it does give a little bit of credibility if you encounter a clipboard-touting jobsworth on the gate!

---- Gavin

Thats great, thanks for the tip, ill buy you a pint next time you at the ground.

[gmen]

Nice shots as always, Gavin.

:p It's always nice to see the opposition playing prearing to lose :p .

Kiddy are on a roll at the moment. We took Barnsley out of the LDV this week, and after only just loosing our manager.

Imagine it....Half time and the Harriers subs are warming up shooting into the north end goal. Taiwo Atieno slices high and wide......straight at the bloke next to me, hitting him in the arm.
Unfortunatly he's holding a cup of the famous Aggborough Soup. Can you guess what happened next?? Yes, well you can't say it wasn't mild and my jacket stank. Answers on a postcard if you can guess what in flaming h*ll they put in that stuff.:lol: I dread to think what's in the soup.

I'll let you know if I'm coming up for the game...perhaps you can direct me to another 'caterer' for my matchday grub :lol:

---- Gavin