Am I in the wrong here ...?

[DOrtiz]

Hi Guys!!

I recently started a part-time business doing what I love (shooting photos). I was hired by a co-worker to do his "informal wedding" and everyone just loved the images. So much that I received two additional bookings in under 30 days. However, here's where it gets good..

For my second booking I was assured this was a very simple and informal wedding. Well, $6,000.00 later I discover it's a lot more FORMAL than I was lead to believe. They didn't mind as my prices seemed reasonable and everyone agreed my work is good.

Today the bride (co-worker) comes up and says she'll just purchase two portrait packs because she can't afford to pay $300.00 for ALL the images (negatives) which will enable her to print as many pictures as possible. I guess she wanted something for nothing. :cry:

Anyway, here's my question .. do I need to restructure my pricing http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm (http://dortizphoto.com/prices.htm) does it seem reasonable to you guys, or am I doing something wrong? After all, my prices include post processing and there are no hidden costs.

Any suggestions you guys may have .. especially those in the business will be most humbly appreciated.

Thanks (in advance) for your valued assistance.

Regards,
Dave

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53358598.sigbanner02.jpg

[DOrtiz]

Thanks everyone for your valued response and assistance. Have a Happy, Healthy and Safe Holiday.

Regards,
Dave
http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53358598.sigbanner02.jpg

[Carzee]

Sorry the wedding guys are'nt around ATM, its Chrissy time. Please leave a message after the beep.///

[SuzyView]

Okay, to start off, weddings are awful because people expect miracles for nothing. Even if your work is wonderful and they love your pictures, they will see the photographer's bill and say to themselves, "This is too much money and I didn't count on spending this much." Usually, the photographer suffers and there has to be negotiations. I think for the sake of future business, you have to make some compromises. I understand the rights of the negatives. Please don't hold those hostage. Work on a deal that allows you to get what is fair to you and the couple doesn't feel like you are unreasonable. How much time did the shoot actually take you, were the pictures good from the start so you don't have to PS them to death? Did the wedding party ask for more than you were willing to do? That's an indication that they are unfamiliar with our business. My first rule is to always negotiate in good faith, otherwise, your name is MUDD. Good luck. I try really hard to make my customers happy. Great pictures first, though.

SuzyView
10D - now on my 10th wedding, I think

[condyk]

I know nothing about weddings and pricing but your web site would certainly make me consider you as a photographer. Nicely put together and a good sense of integrity and competence.

[DOrtiz]

Hi Suzy and Condy ...

Thanks for the feedback my friends, I wasn't sure if my price structure is appropriate. I don't do "formal" weddings and always advise anyone who comes to me with such to consult with a real pro. The one I did was a simnple "Yes I do" and a few formals outside and that was it -- no reception, just something quick and simple. I have one booked for Dec 31, 2005 @ 2:30 pm which is the same. Being done in their back yard, a few family and friends, and nothing major. Infact, the bride is wearing slacks and a nice blouse.

The one in question however, is getting more formal by the minute as she's already $6,000.00 in yet complained about my $300.00 fee to capture this event for her and give her full access to all the images on a CDROM to do as they please. Not to mention, fully post-processed images at that.

So based on my site, and the hourly/print prices seen .. should I change those figures or leave them as is? I was told on another forum my prices are "rediculously low and an insult to the profession" :-(

Regards,
Dave

[condyk]

So based on my site, and the hourly/print prices seen .. should I change those figures or leave them as is? I was told on another forum my prices are "rediculously low and an insult to the profession" :-(

Tricky, tricky ... from being self employed I understand the whole need to build a customer base but I finally learnt that, in my line of work at least, the only customer base I was building was the cheapskates.

If you feel you're covering costs and just using all this as a learning experience for now then there is a business case there for you to continue with the project. I'd be tempted to map out clearly the shots you'll take and what you supply and in what format. Eg. A load of in camera sharpened jpeg shots dumped otherwise unprocessed on a CD is no big deal if you feel you are learning from the day. There may also be a middle ground somewhere.

People will try to tight wad people who are unsure of their pricing and/or seem like they want the work. They also respect people who are clear about their own position and maybe they then feel they're getting a professional service. In some ways people pay for that kind of reassurance, esp. when things are tense or behind schedule (weddings are classic I guess!!)

When I used to do a lot of training design and delivery I had a spreadsheet that allowed me to cost out exactly what a project would cost, every possible variable, and then I had an expected margin figure that also totalled at the bottom to give me a quote, easily and within minutes often. If you don't have that then it might be worth a go if weddings look like a good business opportunity for you.

[zacker]

well, I have learned that people are cheap skates when it comes to "Hiring anyone for anything... Wedding bands also get the shaft allot as do bands playing in bars, allot of the time the owner will hold back half the $$ and say they didnt draw a big enough crowd when in fact its the bar who didnt advertise.. as with wedding photogs, bands, DJ's... allot of people just dont want to part with that $$$$ .
-zacker-
Ps Condyk.. good to see you actually have a real pic of yourself for an Avatar... instead of the cartoon version.. I had no idea you were so Handsome!
lol
Merry Christmas all and Happy Holidays to everyone here at POTN!

[condyk]

Ps Condyk.. good to see you actually have a real pic of yourself for an Avatar... instead of the cartoon version.. I had no idea you were so Handsome!


Thanks :D Of course, I was much younger then. The teenage years are the best and worse of your life ;)

[dwterry]

My own photography business is more for fun than profit. I'm trying to recoup the cost of the equipment and all. But I have a day job that I really like and won't give up. So the photography business just helps to pay for my "habit". (of buying hardware)

That said... I feel my own prices are on the low end. I usually explain that it's because it's not a full time job for me. If it was, I would have to charge prices that could keep a roof over my head.

I took a look at your prices and they are nearly identical to my own. You mentioned this as a part-time business for yourself as well. And so I'm thinking, if that's all you intend it to be, then your pricing structure certainly sounds reasonable to me. But if you plan to grow the business into something more, then you may well want to consider leaving the "cheap business" behind and moving into more lucrative territory.

Sometimes simply increasing your prices is all you need to do. When you demand more money, you change clientele along the way. Sure, there will be those that will still complain about prices, but I think you'll find a higher percentage of complainers on the low end. People that can afford the higher prices know how to place a value on what they get.

[DOrtiz]

David!!

I took at look at your site (I see you use smugmug), and if that's what part-time work and images look like, you missed your calling my friend. Your site and CERTAINLY your work blows my stuff away. You shoot professional quality images and need to be at the professional level. I saw your bridals, and I can't come close to those images. Clearly you're taking on formal full blown weddings which is something I'm not comfortable doing yet. I get butterflies just thinking of a full blown wedding.

I couldn't find your price structure for comparison, but Lord .. those images are certainly top grade!!

Thank you for the feedback and advice .. if I can get half-way to where you are I'd be happy. I too have a great day job and all I want to do is pay for my equipment so my wife doesn't divorce me. :-)

Happy Holidays, and if I may .. I'd like to bookmark your site to go over it with my wife, who's my partner and assistant.

Regards,
Dave

[dwterry]

Thanks, you are too kind. :-)

I've done weddings off and on for several years, but in the beginning I was dragged kicking and screaming all the way. I told people I wouldn't do their wedding because I didn't want to be responsible. They insisted. Enough so that I finally decided to take it serious. That's when I started spending money... the habit really started with a Digital Rebel two years ago and it just keeps going. Now I can't wait to get ahold of the 5D so that I can finally make full use of my 70-200 lens. I think there should be a help group for us addicts ... photographers-anonymous or something. Hi, my name is David, and I can't stop buying equipment.

Anyway, I think it's a lot of fun. A lot of work too, but who cares about work if you're having fun. :-)

Thanks again. Good luck to you and your wife!

[DOrtiz]

Hi again David ...

I saw more of your work and get more impressed as I look. On the down side it shows me just how much MORE I still need to learn. You're obviously fluient with PS as well. I noticed one of your colliages (sp) which is great!

And here I am jumping hoops because I was just able to figure out how to do this:

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53910195.wood.jpg

My wife on the phone.

I was sooo excited to discover how to pull patterns from other locations within PS (with the assistance of others). Seems quite elementary huh? :-) Thanks for responding David, and for sharing your great work. I'm learning a lot by looking at your images and style.

Regards,
Dave

[dwterry]

For collages, I highly recommend checking out LumaPix FotoFusion (http://www.lumapix.com/). It just doesn't get any easier. That program can make anyone look like a pro at collages. I've done the same kinds of things in PhotoShop and it takes at least 10 times as long to do it. And the longer it takes, the less creative you'll be because you won't have as much time for experimentation.

And that, I think, is the key ... just keep experimenting. Figure out what style you like and works good for you.

To be honest, I feel like I'm still at that same stage - heavily into experimentation and still trying to figure out exactly what style I want. for that reason you may see my images "all over the map" as I try to figure out where I really want to go.

[jaypie77]

David Ortiz - I am your biggest fan!

But back to the weddings. You are definitely not in the wrong. $300 for a wedding, even for one hour of shots, is cheaper than cheap. $300 is on the level of being a freebie and if the people don't want to pay you $300 for the wedding shoot you did for them with included processing, they are cheap swine.

Here's my advice on your pricing presentation. Saying "I charge $50/hour" sounds like you are a (cheap) plumber. Furthermore, saying that post-processing is included in that $50/hour sounds like post-processing isn't much work at all and doesn't take any time to do.

Even if you end up charging the exact same amount of money, I think you'd be better off putting your pricing in more differentiated categories. For example:

portrait sitting = price
wedding half-day = price
wedding full-day = price

In conclusion: cut your losses on this wedding and give the customer what they want and don't let yourself get into this situation again.

[dwterry]

In conclusion: cut your losses on this wedding and give the customer what they want and don't let yourself get into this situation again.

This sounds like great advice. All of my own clientele have come by word of mouth (no advertising at all). And in that vein, the worst you could do is end up with a bad reputation.

As an example, I normally charge $25 if someone wants to buy a high resolution image. But I recently had a couple come to me who had not yet purchased any prints and ask if they could have all of the images on CD for cheap. I balked at first. Then finally came up with a deal where I sold them a some high quality prints *and* included the CD. In the end, I made more money than I was going to make from them, they ended up with some nice prints, and lots of photos on CD to remember their wedding day. And hopefully my name still gets passed along to the next person they know getting married.

[DOrtiz]

Excellent tips Jay and David, thank you for sharing.

David I'll give that LumaPix a look to see how it goes -- I'll keep you posted. Jay, how do you (and or anyone else) feel about $75.00 an hr inclusive of processing. Is that more acceptible, or am I still cutting myself short. Keeping in mind I can't charge pro rates as I don't consider myself a pro.

Also, for the wedding pros.. I have turned down full blown formal weddings (two to be exact) and suggested they hire a wedding pro who knows how to do this and does it for a living. I just do the small stuff for now. Having said that, would $75.00 hr be OK, or what do you suggest?

Thanks again for your feedback -- this info is priceless.

Regards,
Dave

[jaypie77]

My opinion is that it's not the amount of $50/hour versus $75/hour - it's the appearance of that number as a metric for your value at a wedding. It's really all about marketing.

For example, if you shoot at wedding for 4 hours at $75/hour, that's $300 (which is fine if you don't consider yourself a pro - just keep in mind that you might be better than some pros that charge twice that). Then you mention after that price that post-processing is included and it gives the impression that you don't really do much of that stuff, because you're getting $75/hour to take photos. Plus you get $1/mile for travel.

On the other hand, if you charge $500 for a 4 hour "half-day wedding package," you can mention that the package includes: your travel to the wedding (up to 50 miles), photography of the wedding, post-processing of images, a free 1-month web gallery, etc..." Suddenly, you're not just getting paid to show up to shoot, you're getting paid for a lot of services - some of which you might do anyway that don't take much extra time but which do excite and amaze people who aren't into photography.

[F. Stop Fitzgerald]

DOrtiz,

You're getting some good advice here.

Let me give you my opinion and relate some of my experience.

First, your site looks good from a marketing POV, though if you want to do weddings with the internet as your primary conduit, you'd do well to add a PASSWORD PROTECTED page so that your prospective clients can see a LOT of your work. Put your contact number on your website and encourage people to call for an extensive view of your work.

Why? Because people do service-related business with other people, not with websites. You are part of the package, so you need to encourage people to CALL you for more information, so that they'll KNOW that you are the thoroughly likeable person you appear to be. (You ARE thoroughly likeable, aren't you?).

That said, I strongly suggest that you take price out of the picture. As said earlier, people who shop for service solely by price are the WORST people to deal with.

Really.

But you didn't ask for that advice, so I'll address your pricing structure. Charge whatever you feel you need to charge to make selling reprints a profitable part of your business. You don't need to tell people what you charge for reprints until they ask you, and that should be a really minor part of your sales pitch and a nonexistent part of your marketing. You need to sell YOU, Dave Ortiz, not hold-in-your-hand pictures.

Fifty bucks an hour? Hey, I'll work for fifty bucks an hour any day. No, I'll work for that wage EVERY day, eight hours a day, five days a week. That's 100 Gs a year!

But you're not photographing on that basis, are you? That's why you need to work per event, not per hour because every client is going to try to get you for more hours than they pay for, especially if you require payment up-front-before the event in some way.

Me, I won't leave the house for less than $800.000. For a grand, I might even leave the porch and get in the car. I might even bring my camera for a little more. Of course, if I am to take pictures, well, that's another matter altogether.

Fifty bucks an hour? Pfffft. You'll lose fifty bucks when you take your (unpaid) shower after the job. Three hours on the job? How many hours behind the computer screen? Man, you're working for nothing.

For your website copy, I recommend that you make price as vague as possible. Make the customer make contact with you for the price. Then you can make your sales pitch in person. I would NEVER publish my prices. What happens when you publish your prices is that your webpage becomes a comparison point for the shoppers to refer to. The guys who require a phone call have a better shot at booking the job. (Of course, if you're one of the three big name wedding pros in the country, you really WANT to smoke out the people who aren't willing to sell a kidney in order to afford your services. In that case, you should state your five-figure price on your website).

About reprints and frames and peripheral sales: whoa. You REALLY want to be in retail? Camera stores carry nicer and nicer stuff these days. Their printing is getting better and better to the point that Ritz Camera does better work than a lot of so-called "custom" outfits. Of course, the paper finish may be critical, but it seems that some consumers actually prefer glossy prints to E surface prints. If you supply an acetate-sleeve book, then your work will look absolutely boffo printed in glossy with a white border.

I am far from an expert wedding photographer. I've shot about ten to twelve weddings per year for the fast twelve years or so. That's the way I want it. I do other things as well as photography, and I don't think I would ever want to get bogged down in the slower-paced, lab and vendor dependent side of the business.

That's not to say that I don't sell reprints. I do. There are people who prefer the traditional manner of proofing and all that stuff. I quote one price for service which includes a big old book that will fall apart in six months. I quote another price for service plus a book from an outfit that will print a hardbound book that looks like something from the library. And then, after the client gets over the shock of those prices, I quote my prices for services with CD-only. (No, I'm not talking about having a transvestite reenact the wedding, but I've thought about it).

Most people go with the CD-only because they see the economy of such an arrangement. I see dollar signs and the rest of the weekend off.

In the end, Dave, what you do and how you do it is up to you. If you're in it for the fun of it (and there are lots of mommy fotograffers who are into it for the fun of it), then charge by the hour. If you want to make money, charge per event, and minimize your post-event time somehow. Shoot the job and then get out from under it.

Monte Zucker et al would have fits if they were to read this, I know, but unless you are a Name Brand, you really can't afford to shoot per hour and then depend upon reprints to sustain you.

IMHO

FSF

[DOrtiz]

Hey Jaypie, thanks my friend .. I have that program and am giving it a try.

Now Fitz .. WOW, that post is deep my friend and combined with the others it's something I'll have to re-read with my wife present so we can come up with a sound decision.

Hmmmm.... $500.00 for 4 hrs, free website publishing, post processing and travel within 50 miles.. See, I don't get many weddings and was doing solely sporting events I was already attending. So I grew use to having parents search my site, find images of their kids then buy a print or two or a few from me.

Then I sorta fell into this wedding thing and came up with that $50.00 hr figure. I went low on that because I charge $8.00 for a 5x7 e-finish w/ lustre coating, and we all know what those costs (I use MPix) so I didn't want to go too high on the hourly rate.

However, you're 100% correct .. after the wedding I spend endless hrs processing, adjusting WB, cropping, and prepairing for upload onto my site for viewing. So that $50.00 quickly turns to something like $10.00 hr by the time I'm done.

Decisions -- decisions .. this is a hard one for me guys, and one will require much thought as I certainly want the business (at least enough to pay for my gear), but don't want to be taken either. I'll read the comments here together with my wife later on this evening. You guys (all of you) have been most helpful and I humbly appreciate the time you've all taken to assist me.

Here's the school I was shooting football pictures for (I would even give the school 20% of my earnings): http://www.gatewaycharterhigh.org

If you scroll down about 2/3 of the page you'll see what I mean. This wedding thing is something that just fell on my lap after doing one for a co-worker and everyone seeing my work -- it's all new to me.

Regards,
Dave

[DOrtiz]

Well folks, I see no way around this upcoming wedding based on where and when they want it shot. I went outside at 2:30 pm today and that sun is unbearable. The "squinting" is inevitable and bouncing light on the subjects faces to eliminate harsh shadows only made my son squint more.

That said, fill flash is the only way (and that won't eliminate the squinting). So I moved my son behind a partially shaded area, and fired a shot:

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53918927.noway.jpg

This is a paid job.. the bride wrote me a check for $100.00 for two hours of shooting and they'll buy the prints they like -- that was the agreement. Here's the location where the shoot will take place (very tight and small) and this is them showing me the location and what they want.

I made it a point to go there at the exact time of the day they want the event to take place (2:30 pm). However, it was partly cloudy this day and you can STILL see the shadows (something he said he knew but expected me to handle the technical side of that).

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53659943.02.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53659944.03.jpg

With ths next shot, I fired off a flash to test fill..

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53659942.01.jpg

You can still see where she's squinting from behind her glasses.

That said, today I took my son out at same time of day and made him face in the same direction the couple will be facing (west) with the sun above at 2:30 PM.. you can see what the result was under "normal" sun-lit conditions this time of day..

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53921212.badlighting.jpg

Needless to say, some sleepless nights lie ahead for me. Any tips, suggestions, comments and/or feedback will be most humbly appreciated. I certainly can use the help -- not to mention use some good sleep. :-(

Regards,
Dave

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53358598.sigbanner02.jpg

[dwterry]

Curious.... why do I see water in one scene and a building in the other, but both of them sound like they were shot were you will be shooting the wedding???

In any case, I figure you have a couple of options:

1) Pray for a cloudy day.
2) No clouds ... tell the client you prefer they stand over in some other shaded location, or else have them turn and face the other direction (with the sun to their back)
3) Or use flash fill
4) Or a reflector
5) Or use a translucent diffuser (click here (http://www.adorama.com/SPR42K.html) to see what I mean).

Option 3 means you need a strong flash to beat the sunlight into submission (ugh). Option 4 limits the size of the group. And neither of these do anything for the squinting!

Option 5 will work for 2 or 3 people at the most. But it is my prefered solution if you can't get them to move. Many of these reflectors come with a translucent middle and a nice 42 incher will work well with up to 3 people.

But if you're shooting large groups, you'll want to find a better location or at least turn their back to the sun if at all possible. (of course you'll be shooting fill flash in this scenario too, but at least they won't be squinting)

Good luck!

[DOrtiz]

I have one of those 31" round things (gold on one side white on the other). I'll do some more experimenting around that same time and will try many different things before shoot day. Fingers crossed. :-(

Thanks for responding my friend.

Regards,
Dave

[dwterry]

I have one of those 31" round things (gold on one side white on the other). I'll do some more experimenting around that same time and will try many different things before shoot day. Fingers crossed. :-(

Thanks for responding my friend.

Regards,
Dave

But... does it unzip to expose a translucent middle? If not, you might want to get one of those ... you'll be wanting a bigger one anyway. (even 42" is a bit small at times)

[DOrtiz]

No it doesn't ... it's the basic one and right now I'm really strapped for funds and doubt I'd have it here before the 31st anyway. :-( I'm reading up on fill flash, but really think I'm going to suggest moving the ceremony to a shaded area. If they don't then they'll have to deal with the squinting I suppose. I can't do anything about that -- right?

Regards,
Dave

[jukas]

The one in question however, is getting more formal by the minute as she's already $6,000.00 in yet complained about my $300.00 fee to capture this event for her and give her full access to all the images on a CDROM to do as they please. Not to mention, fully post-processed images at that.


Honestly? If it was me, I''d pass on this job and offer to referr her to another photographer. This obviously isn't a small, informal gathering and I have a feeling while she's trying to get rock bottom prices, she is expecting quality images in return.

I may not be a wedding photographer, but I see this as nothing but a headache waiting to happen and to me, my reputation and saving the aggrevation would be well worth it to pass on making a couple hundred bucks.

If you haven't shot the wedding yet, I'd thank her but regretfully decline due to a conflict in your schedule (or any other reason).

[DOrtiz]

Honestly? If it was me, I''d pass on this job and offer to referr her to another photographer. This obviously isn't a small, informal gathering and I have a feeling while she's trying to get rock bottom prices, she is expecting quality images in return.

I may not be a wedding photographer, but I see this as nothing but a headache waiting to happen and to me, my reputation and saving the aggrevation would be well worth it to pass on making a couple hundred bucks.

If you haven't shot the wedding yet, I'd thank her but regretfully decline due to a conflict in your schedule (or any other reason).

Hi Jukas,

Relative to the $6,000.00 job I already refunded her money yesterday afternoon. I agree, it was much of a headache and she wanted BIG and quality stuff for nothing. I've always said I won't do formal (big traditional) weddings. That job is gone .... and I feel releived about that one. :-)

Thanks for the advice my friend.

Regards,
Dave

[SuzyView]

I think if you have to agonize over the job, it becomes less fun for everyone, especially you. And then it shows in every picture you snap. Even if the bride was willing to pay more, it isn't worth it. I spend so much time making the final product good enough for the customer, it is always an act of love, nothing else. If you don't feel the love, it hurts. Good decision and hope you get a lot more reasonable clients.

SuzyView - reading the replies and agreeing

[DOrtiz]

Hi Suzy ..

Here's an image if Daisey, my in-law's wonder hound dog. :-)

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/53985048.daisey01.jpg

Thanks for the post and advice, I really appreciate it.

Regards,
Dace

[SuzyView]

She is a beauty! The color! Wow. I love dogs, but my son is allergic.:cry:

I also think your website is amazing. I haven't done one, even though I have two sons who can do that for me and do a great job. I just work for friends who have very poor children and they are glad to have anyone do their work. When I decide to go full pro, it will be hard. I've been a teacher for almost 20 years now, working on and off, but I love taking pictures. Thank heavens I have a spouse that works and lets me play. Hope you had a great Christmas and a happy new year!

SuzyView
10D, 20D in the mail

[DOrtiz]

She's a great dog, and has a great temperment with the children. Goad you like the image.

Regards,
Dave

[RichardtheSane]

I've just picked up this thread, and you have done what I was thinking after reading your first post Dave - back away.

I think that was a very wise decision :)

Great shots too, love the pet photos on your site, and your site looks good too :)

[DOrtiz]

Thanks Richard for the kind words my friend. Yes, I backed out (tactfully, I might add) from that $6,000.00 "informal" wedding. I also raised my fees since I spend equal or greater time post processing from home. My print prices remained the same though.

Thanks for the feedback, and for taking the time to read the thread. Here's another picture of Daisey. :-)

http://i.pbase.com/o4/88/335988/1/54028402.daisy02.jpg

I can't help but laugh ... it almost looks like her snout is coming out of the picture. :-)

Regards,
Dave