New computer

[rebellearner]

I'm looking to upgrade my computer and would like any advice on what would be the best features:rolleyes: (how big storage, memory, monitor.... ext) for photography fixings. I realy like the new flat screens and would like one that is real clear. I also want to make home DVDs of pictures and small video clips for my sons hockey team.
I just got Elements 4 so I will have somewhat of a program. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want it right. This is a hobby for me to do for the kids and there sports.

Thanks
John

[subtle_spectre]

3 words: RAM-RAM-RAM.

[vjack]

I wouldn't do anything until you have added as much RAM as your system will handle. After that, adding a larger hard drive and a new monitor might make sense.

[rebellearner]

Thanks guys that was exactly what I needed to know.. Keep it coming if you think of more...:D

[Todd Jacobsen]

I'm looking to upgrade my computer and would like any advice on what would be the best features:rolleyes: (how big storage, memory, monitor.... ext) for photography fixings. I realy like the new flat screens and would like one that is real clear. I also want to make home DVDs of pictures and small video clips for my sons hockey team.
I just got Elements 4 so I will have somewhat of a program. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want it right. This is a hobby for me to do for the kids and there sports.

Thanks
John

Minimum 2Gb RAM. Make sure the HD's you select are min 7200RPM w/ 8MB cache. If you can consider RAID capable (SATA) HD's for future growth.

Your time consuming stuff will be your rendering of video effects (transitions like fade, etc). I own Elements4.0 (Premiere and Photoshop) but haven't delved too deeply with this products video capability, other than to create photo movies. I typically stick with Adobe Video Collection (Premiere Pro, DVD Encore). Nice that Premiere Elements provides basic DVD menu creation.

[StealthLude]

I am a computer systems analyst and have been into computers for TOO long...
I have about 4 computers at home and manage 25 at work.

I can help you design a system that cna best fit your beens based or price/your budget. Or just stack on accessories until it cost more than a car.

Keep in mind, and i dont care what anyone at Dell, Best Buys, or whoever says about hardware is best. COMPUTERS ARE ALL ABOUT BALANCE.

Typically the slowest compenent in a computer is your harddrive. As said about, ram is important, but you cant just "cram in as much as you can" since windows can only use and see a certain ammount. Depending on the operating system.

A good setup depending on if you wanted a MAC or PC (I like both, but use a G5 Power mac strictly for photography)

Start with a Apple G5 processor or a Intel Pentium 4 (or Dual Core) 3.00 or faster
(Im trying to build a system for a reasnoable price and balanced performance)
Two Maxtor 250 Gig Harddrives from Newegg.com (Make sure you get the 16mb casche since it will REALLY speed up your system) SATA 150 interphase.
Why 2, since you can run Raid 1 (Drive Mirroring) Its automatically making a 1:1 copy for data/back redundancy, automatically, and on the fly. You only have 250 gigs of active storage tho. Plenty...
Graphics cards really depends on if you wanted to play games or not, A simple $150 card AGP or PCI-E will do you file.

RAM,.. the exciting part, There is good ram, and bad ram. Crucial.com makes GOOD ram. Speed on the ram matters and for use in software like photoshop. 1 Gig should be minimum. I use 2 Gigs on all my PCs and 4 Gigs on my MAC. I can load 20 RAW files and my hard drives as well as over all system still have room to breath. Very important if your working with TIFF files, applying filters, creating layers ect. Photoshop will also be using the harddrive as your casche disk, NOT you ram. Thats why a 16mb casche in important.

I use a WD Raptor 10,000 36 Gig SATAII Drive as my didicated casche disk. Cost about $130 bucks.

Asus mother board and an Antec Case , prices good reliable power, quiet and good cooling. Power supply is VERY important. Bad Power supply can cause hardware faliur. Expecially in hard drives.

All this stuff, assuming you build a PC yourself will cost you about $1000-$1500 w/o a monitor. Mac might be about the same. Depends on how much ram you want to cram in.

Id get raid setup w/o a doubt, its a no brainer.. Cant re-take a photo.

Monitor. Dell baby... Wait for a Dell Deal, I picked up TWO 20" 16:9 ratio wide sceens with a 800:1 contrast ratio for $420 each, shipped to my door. It makes looking at the photo THAT MUCH better. The monitor can also be rotated 90 degrees for viewing and editing of long shots, like portrait mode/vertical shooting.

Ive basically built a full on photo studio (computer end only) including Dual monitors, redundant data storage, monitor calibration hardware/software for about $2000/computer including monitors.

Hopefully this helps. If you need more information, please let me know, i love building computers and can help you over the phone pick out stuff on newegg.com

PM me if you need more help.

[StealthLude]

Raptor Casche Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144160

Maxtor Storage Drives/ 16 Meg Casche EACH!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144235

All are SATA/ ATA 150, much faster and an independant channel than IDE drives.

On my PC computer, I have 4 of the above drives, in Raid 5, with a Promice Raid controler with a 512 MB ECC Ram Chip. (Basically means I have 4 drives working at the SAME time, and has a total of 512 casche ram)

When I save a 400 Meg Tiff file, ready for print at the lab, I press save, and even before i HEAR the hard drives move,... The files is ALREADY done saving. Less that a second or 2. Thats the beautiy of casche ram... Since im using server grade gear, its a totally different league. The process of applying a filter to a 500 meg files takes seconds. It used to take a 60-120 seconds prior to me getting a good raid setup. Processor speeds of couse helps this process, but you can only get so much processor power.. If your processors running MUCH faster than your hard drives.. Guess what, you waisted all that $ on a fast processor. REMEMBER BALANCE!!!

It really depends on what you want to spend, and how much you understand computers.

Dont matter what system you use. You can idiot proof it by getting good ram, good power supply, good monitor (visual eye candy) AND! Hard Drive setup that allows you to atleast backup (Raid 1) or evternal drive. But you have to be smart about backing up then.

Ive lost data before, its not FUN

[StealthLude]

sorry for the spelling.... im typing fast as i could since im not supposed to be doing this at work =)

And i get excited about computers..

Sorry, thanks.

[rebellearner]

Stealthlude

WOW!! :) :rolleyes: :lol:

I don't know as much as I thought I did. This will really helps me though. I have a Dell laptop Inspiron 5100 and an older Dell desktop that I will have for backup. I have been looking at the Dell packages do you think there is a good one in there for photography. It doesn't have to be Dell it just seams easier to find one that is already built. I will keep looking around and PM you when I get ready to make my choice.

Thanks very much
John

[StealthLude]

John,

No problem.. For me, dell is a love/hate relationship. I order a lot of dell gear for my work a a bi-anual basis. I try and only order when they have their "famous dell deals"

I picked up a Dell Power Edge Server with Dual Xeon Processors, each chip had 2mb Casche each. 4 MB total which if your familiar with casche memory for processors.. Is amazing... All this with high end case, powersupply, one small hard drive, and 1 gig of ram WITH!! Windows Server 2003 Small Buisness Edition for $1000. The deal was so good I got 3 for work and one for home. This is the computer that i use with the Promice Raid control and 4 hard drives. I also have Raptors inside on Raid 1 for system files.

All my actual graphics work is done on a MAC. Personally. I think both PC and MAC are equally as capable. But I can tell you that working on a MAC, expecially with photos can have its own advantages.

Ive very big on data security and redundancy since data is now one on thoes things that needs more protection than a bank vault. Everything I own is also on a battery backup unit by APC.

Ive been into computers and photoshop for years and years, but its thoes hobbies that actually got me into photography.

Af fas as your "Dell Packages" , they make decent starter computers, or decent bases for upgrade.

WHAT I DONT LIKE ABOUT DELL, is what you see isnt always what you get. They do give you "good stuff" but its the hidden things that people typically overlook. For example, does dell tell you who makes the power supply, DVD Drive and motherboard specs. Sometimes their design does not allow you to upgrade much at all, eventually making you spend more in the long run.

Most of my computers have been hand built. I like to pick out components myself and peice it all together.

My brands of choice...
Antec - Case and Power Supply
ASUS - Motherboard
Crucial - Ram
Nvidia - Video cards , but this area your really open to whatever you want.
DVD-RW/CDR - Pioneer and NEC (Both about $40 from Newegg) Ive burned over 200 DVDs and 600 DVDs with my Pionner and STILL kicking. Ive gotten ONE coffee coster CD from my pioneer and thats was actually my fault.

LCD Screens, - Dell when they have deals (Even on my apple i buy dell, and why? guess what, apply uses the SAME manufacture as dell, it just cost x2 since its white in color?

Hard Drives - Maxtor, But Western Digital is the only brand that makes the Raptor (10,000 RPM SATA)

I dont know your level with computers, but to be honest with you, its not hard at all to build a custom computer from the ground up. Instructions are very friendly now adays and you can always go to comp usa and tell them what you want. May cost you a few bucks, but belive me, to know everything in your computer is balanced and of good quality is excellent peice of mind.

ALSO, in all my dell systems except for the servers, I have purchased new power supply units along with server grade batterys from APC. Do you NEED it, NO? But is it worth it, YES.

Not always from blackouts, but brownouts is actually what causes equiptment to fail. My first computer (along with ALL my photos) died from a brownout. From a junk power supply , that killed my motherboard, ram, AND harddrives.

Even tho it was all with a point and shoot. I could care less about the computer, the fact that i list every picture i took from my high school years was bad enought.

Wish you good luck with your computer build, let me know if you have questions. And watch out for dell, most of the time their simple systems wont support raid configurations on the standard motherboards. your going to have to buy a seperate raid card.

ASUS Motherboards almost all come with Raid 1, Raid 0+1 and Raid 5 configurations built into the motherboard. All you do is plug in the drives and tell it what you want.

The most expenvice asus motherboard is $170 bucks, and thats pretty much medium duty server grade. For $110 bucks, you can still get a ASUS board with ALL the fixings. A steal if you compare it to what dell puts in their crap boxes.

[StealthLude]

I know these are essays... but... when it comes to computer. I JUST GOT TO GET IT OUT OF MY SYSTEM!

=)

I also have a lot of used equiptment in great condition... I tyically like to upgrade to the latest and greatest even tho there isnt anything wrong with the current stuff. Let me know if there is something you need, want that i can provide. I also have a few Microtek.com LCD monitors. 17" 18" and 19" sizes. Only reason I am selling thoes is because we started buying black Dell LCD screen for work. The boss liked them a lot, so its now our standard. Makes the office look consistant and uniform.

[SuzyView]

Okay, I didn't read all that, but my only suggestions are whatever was already said about RAM, MONITOR, etc.

Add - a DVD burner. I just got one for my computer and it's great. It's a double sided one. I was tired of putting my photos on CD. DVDs can do so much more.

SuzyView

[StealthLude]

Okay, I didn't read all that, but my only suggestions are whatever was already said about RAM, MONITOR, etc.

Add - a DVD burner. I just got one for my computer and it's great. It's a double sided one. I was tired of putting my photos on CD. DVDs can do so much more.

SuzyView


Like i said in the above post...
DVD-RW/CDR - Pioneer and NEC (Both about $40 from Newegg) Ive burned over 200 DVDs and 600 DVDs with my Pionner and STILL kicking. Ive gotten ONE coffee coster CD from my pioneer and thats was actually my fault.

Both drives are Dual Layer Drive, but Dual Layer media is expenvice and pointless for most people. I also like Ritek DVDs, since they use Archival quality dyes and typically good for about 100+ years.

Here are the links to the NEC and Pioneer DVD Drives on NewEgg.
Pioneer
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827129168
NEC
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152056

You dont need any of that software that comes with the burners, these are the OEM versions. Should you NEED software, but STOMP REORD NOW MAX, or NERO for PC.

Ive pretty much layed out an entire system in this post to handle the most taxing assignments.

Give it a good read and thats all you really need to know.

[EOSAddict]

Stealthlude, perhaps you can help!

I built my own PC a few months ago - P4 3.0, 250GB HDD, 1GB RAM, Coolermaster Cavalier case etc. At the moment I am using the basic intel CPU cooler and it runsa bit hot - I was looking at one of the Zalman coolers, any recommendations? Any thoughts on the best overall cooling plan for the PC as a whole (cpu cooler vs case fans etc?)

[StealthLude]

First off, computer cooling is one of the biggest challenges out there. The more heat you can remove, the more you can over-clock (if you’re into that kinda thing) , which in turn makes your gear last longer, AND fun faster.

In my room, it used to get SOO hot since I had many computers and were being used, especially the server which generated a lot of heat. Its usually my heater in the winter. I moved all my servers into my closet and punched a hole and ran an AC duct to it. That’s not going to work for you I know.

This is also the Reason I mentioned using an Antec case, some of the best and quietest cooling available for desktop PCs (Fan Based) Not including water cooled systems.

Some of the options I like is really just to move a lot of CFM in and out of the sytem. Case fans and fans in general are a great idea, but they can get loud. So make sure you buy decent fans. Antec makes temp controlled automatically adjustable RPM fans, which speed up as heat load increases. Their powersupples (smart supply) also shuts down fans if NOT needed.

If you worried about overall system performance, and simple harddrive cooler should do. To be honest with you, most systems are already cooled well. Its only when you are overclocking the system you will need over and above the OEM requirements.

If you DO buy anything.. or a new fan and heatsink for the computer. I don’t really care who makes it, as long as the heatsink is a “COPPER CORE” This will help the heat transfer process. My server came standard with copper core heat-sinks.

[Crypto]

My 2 cents:
-Intel Pentium 4
-1GB Memory or more
-100GB hardrive (consider an external for video's, these babies take some serious space if you store them on a HDD)
-Network card (100mbps or gigbit)
-PCI express or AGP slot for improved video (for a nice video card later or improved performance for add ons )
-Plenty of USB2.0 or Firewire Ports
-Consider a Dual layer DVD burner for those long movies on one DVD or 8.5 GB's per DVD of back-up.
-I TOTALLY LOVE MY SONY HS-74P monitor(the new model has a different number)! Awesome picture!!!!

[StealthLude]

John, here is another accessory for your computer that will HELP improve the quality of LIFE!!!

Very easy to install, cheap, easy to use, and saves you from having to bust out a cable when wanting to connect the camera to the computer. It also allows you to use your Compact Flash to backup data or work files...

When my 4 Gig MicroDrive isnt in my camera, i usually use it to save data files and move data around from Location to Location. Computer to Computer i usually use my internal network.

HERE YOU GO!!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820176825

[StealthLude]

My 2 cents:
-Intel Pentium 4
-1GB Memory or more
-100GB hardrive (consider an external for video's, these babies take some serious space if you store them on a HDD)
-Network card (100mbps or gigbit)
-PCI express or AGP slot for improved video (for a nice video card later or improved performance for add ons )
-Plenty of USB2.0 or Firewire Ports
-Consider a Dual layer DVD burner for those long movies on one DVD or 8.5 GB's per DVD of back-up.
-I TOTALLY LOVE MY SONY HS-74P monitor(the new model has a different number)! Awesome picture!!!!

System is Entry level and will FOR SURE GET THE JOB DONE.

Only thing i would change is multiple hard drives for the ability to back up data.

Again, going back to ASUS mother boards, they come with a lot of things mentioned above + more, Your Network Card, you can Dual Gigbit NICS on the high end mobos built in. PCI-E along with Raid & Massive USB.

I would REALLY get Dual Core Intel chips... P4 isnt really anything special anymore. Photoshop is NOW coded to use Dual Core, Dual Processor, for both MAC and PC. You can apply a filter to a 500 Meg file faster than you can cook a HOT POCKET.

[EOSAddict]

Thanks Lude, mostly my CPU runs in the 60s but occasionally runs up to 80+ and then the PC nearly stops!

[StealthLude]

Also, when you pick out monitors,... Look at the actual performance specs...

Contrast Ratios, 800:1 or better, Refresh rates. 22ms of faster. ect...

DVI and Dual input displays are always nice. Dells FP series is good.

It also comes down to personal prefrence. Same as TVs, everyones eyes are different. All that matters really is that it is calibrated with hardware like this...

Pantones Color Calibration Systems (Software/Hardware)
see link B&H....
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=365319&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

[StealthLude]

Thanks Lude, mostly my CPU runs in the 60s but occasionally runs up to 80+ and then the PC nearly stops!

80 degrees C i hope...

What applications are you running when it gets that hot? Video Games?

Also, how many case fans do you have, and where?

If its the processor thats getting hot, get a COPPER HEAT SINK. With a good fan.

You can also use Artic thermal grease to help heat transfer... BUT, make sure you apply it correctly, VERY thin layer w/o air bubbles... That could be fatal if you dont do it right.

I burnt out an AMD chip because i applyed too much thermal grease.

[Palladium]

I'm looking to upgrade my computer and would like any advice on what would be the best features:rolleyes: (how big storage, memory, monitor.... ext) for photography fixings. I realy like the new flat screens and would like one that is real clear. I also want to make home DVDs of pictures and small video clips for my sons hockey team.
I just got Elements 4 so I will have somewhat of a program. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want it right. This is a hobby for me to do for the kids and there sports.

Thanks
John

Without knowing your computer experience / ability, etc. IMHO don't get more computer that you can handle and don't get one that your plan to grow into.

I've seen too many people buy more that then need and hold onto it too long.

You didn't state the specs of your current system but if it's more that 2 years old it's time to pass it along to someone else and buy new. CPU's double in speed almost every year or so even with today's entry level ($400 US) box you'll be so far ahead of the system that your currently using that it dosn't pay to upgrade.

Today's entry level machines are so fast that you'll have a great computing exerience and it will be easy to think about buying new again in 1 or 2 years when you only have a couple of hundred invested.


PS - I have these components - dual AMD 1800MP processors on an Asus A7M266-D (?) motherboard with 1 gig 2700 certified/regestered ram and Matrox G-550 (?)dual display card (it's the one with AGP 32mb ram) just sitting on a self. If anyone is interested make offer.

[StealthLude]

Just because a computer is 2 years old, does not mean its out of date.. I have servers that are 2 years old running Dual Xeons that leave todays entry level systems in the dust.

Problem with entry level is that its entry level. As i said above, STAY AWAY from cheap powersupples, cases, and things like that. Just because its more computer now, does not mean that they wont grow into it. Cheap stuff cost more $ in the long run to upgrade and maintain.

Did you buy you camera knowing everything about shooting digital photography? When i bought my 20D, i didnt even know what apature priority was. Now im soo comfortable shooting on any creative mode in almost any situatation.

If you never try, you never learn.

[DavidW]

Things aren't doubling in two years any more. The machine I'm using is a 2.5 year old Dell Precision 650, which was was very high spec when I bought it - dual 2.66GHz Xeon (you can't get processors much above 4GHz now - at the time 3.06GHz was the maximum Xeon available, though both 2.8GHz and 3.06GHz carried a huge and unwarranted price premium), with dual 15krpm U320 SCSI HDs. It's worn well.

I really need more RAM - but another 2GB to add to the 1GB already fitted is cheap enough now and I'll probably do that shortly. I've swapped out the monitor that came with the machine (Dell 1703FP) for a Dell 2005FPW. The factory graphics card (nVidia Quadro FX500) is up to what I'm doing with it, and can drive the 2005FPW at native resolution using DVI.

I'm not intending to replace the machine until Windows Vista is well established, at which point I may consider a dual dual-core Xeon box. Dual core Xeons are out now, but are incredibly expensive at the moment.

OK - this machine has limits. It's only 533MHz FSB (Xeon only jumped to 800MHz FSB fairly recently - it always lags P4). It's PCI and PCI-X, with no PCI-E support. However, it will still leave many quite decent modern machines standing, especially if they're fitted with lesser hard disks. Certainly I'm running Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium on this box and really not feeling the limits.



David

[StealthLude]

Things aren't doubling in two years any more. The machine I'm using is a 2.5 year old Dell Precision 650, which was was very high spec when I bought it - dual 2.66GHz Xeon (you can't get processors much above 4GHz now - at the time 3.06GHz was the maximum Xeon available, though both 2.8GHz and 3.06GHz carried a huge and unwarranted price premium), with dual 15krpm U320 SCSI HDs. It's worn well.

I really need more RAM - but another 2GB to add to the 1GB already fitted is cheap enough now and I'll probably do that shortly. I've swapped out the monitor that came with the machine (Dell 1703FP) for a Dell 2005FPW. The factory graphics card (nVidia Quadro FX500) is up to what I'm doing with it, and can drive the 2005FPW at native resolution using DVI.

I'm not intending to replace the machine until Windows Vista is well established, at which point I may consider a dual dual-core Xeon box. Dual core Xeons are out now, but are incredibly expensive at the moment.

OK - this machine has limits. It's only 533MHz FSB (Xeon only jumped to 800MHz FSB fairly recently - it always lags P4). It's PCI and PCI-X, with no PCI-E support. However, it will still leave many quite decent modern machines standing, especially if they're fitted with lesser hard disks. Certainly I'm running Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium on this box and really not feeling the limits.



David

David,

Thank You for bringing that up. The computers FSB / Bus Speeds are also a very critical part of a systems balance and overall performance. This is something that is typically swept under the rug with people like Dell on cheap systems.

I have 800 FSB on my Xeon system as well sa 1000 FSB on my AMD gaming system. It does make a difference along with casche memory.

David, how much casche memory is on your Xeon processor? I only have Dual 2.5s but each chip has 2mb casche (total 4mb)

Depending on the server task, if found it to be faster than a single dual core chip with 2mb casche!

You are also correct about the HUGE price jump when you look at 3Ghz chips.

Another thing not mentioned is the "Chip Set" using on mother boards. This is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the processor being used. Intel 989 for example is a type of chip set.

It could be like having a fararri and set of crap tires. The power of the processor is pointless if you cant put the power to the road.

This is why i preach!!! BALANCE!!! Its all about balance.

[Palladium]

Just because a computer is 2 years old, does not mean its out of date.. I have servers that are 2 years old running Dual Xeons that leave todays entry level systems in the dust.

Problem with entry level is that its entry level. As i said above, STAY AWAY from cheap powersupples, cases, and things like that. Just because its more computer now, does not mean that they wont grow into it. Cheap stuff cost more $ in the long run to upgrade and maintain.

Did you buy you camera knowing everything about shooting digital photography? When i bought my 20D, i didnt even know what apature priority was. Now im soo comfortable shooting on any creative mode in almost any situatation.

If you never try, you never learn.

Let's revisit my original points - without knowing a person's ability/experience IMHO it dosn't pay to purchase more CPU than then can handle right out of the gate.

If someone has needs for dual xeons and have has an OS that can handle them and acutally have software that can utilize them great for them. Until recently most OS (eg. XP, 2000 Pro linited support) didn't even utilize a dual processor and there was practually no consumer software that supported dual processors. Anyway that's not my point.

My point is don't get caught up in the upgrade game. Just as CPU's speeds are increasing, so does the need for software speed to increase.

So to run tomorrow's software you'll need tomorrow's machine.

Is today's entry level machine right for everyone - no, but are they right for the majority of peps - I think so. It all depends upon what your experience level is and what your current needs are.

But again if your rendering a 3d animation maybe your need dual xeons - Oh Wait, I guess you could always use a rendering farm of entry level boxes ;) .

[DavidW]

Balance all the way - I'm with you there. I forget how big the L1 cache in my Xeons are, but it's certainly not 2MB - I think they're 1MB chips. It makes a difference as you say, especially for high end server applications.

Dell do make it fairly obvious on the higher end systems what the FSB speed is - that's another thing that matters.

Finally, as you say, good chipsets are worth it - my machine is Intel E7505, which was the best Xeon chipset at the time. E7525 is ubiquitous now - but that only came along much more recently (when the Precision 670 replaced the Precision 650 - that came along with the jump to 800MHz FSB).

The good part of my system is that the Gigabit Ethernet and U320 SCSI are on the PCI-X buses, so I've not got an I/O bandwidth limitation as I would if everything were on a single PCI bus.



David

[Zepher]

My system is about 3 years old and is pretty stout compared to todays machines.

[Palladium]

Things aren't doubling in two years any more. The machine I'm using is a 2.5 year old Dell Precision 650, which was was very high spec when I bought it - dual 2.66GHz Xeon (you can't get processors much above 4GHz now - at the time 3.06GHz was the maximum Xeon available, though both 2.8GHz and 3.06GHz carried a huge and unwarranted price premium), with dual 15krpm U320 SCSI HDs. It's worn well.

I really need more RAM - but another 2GB to add to the 1GB already fitted is cheap enough now and I'll probably do that shortly. I've swapped out the monitor that came with the machine (Dell 1703FP) for a Dell 2005FPW. The factory graphics card (nVidia Quadro FX500) is up to what I'm doing with it, and can drive the 2005FPW at native resolution using DVI.

I'm not intending to replace the machine until Windows Vista is well established, at which point I may consider a dual dual-core Xeon box. Dual core Xeons are out now, but are incredibly expensive at the moment.

OK - this machine has limits. It's only 533MHz FSB (Xeon only jumped to 800MHz FSB fairly recently - it always lags P4). It's PCI and PCI-X, with no PCI-E support. However, it will still leave many quite decent modern machines standing, especially if they're fitted with lesser hard disks. Certainly I'm running Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium on this box and really not feeling the limits.



David

Hi David - I would guess when you purchased your 2.5 year old system that you were doing video editing - You probally purchased a system that you could use right away - although I'm not sure if any Adobe Apps were written for Dual processors 2.5 years ago - maybe your video (NLE) was but I doubt it.

Let's jump forward - I'll take those HD's (15K) and put them in an entry level box with a controller card and and a couple of HD coolers and I'll be set for the next year or so. XP should load & boot in about 15 sec and CS2 should load in a couple of secs.

I'll stand with my original point upgrading is generally not worth it and don't purchase a consumer system more than you can currently handle. In the long run it's cheaper to buy new.

[StealthLude]

Palladium, you mentioned many softwares today do not support Dual Processor, Dual Core and sometimes even hyperthreading...

Well, this is correct, mostly for games and other things of that nature.

Just so you know with the recent release of Dual Core and Windows 64 Bit OS,

and since this is a Photography forum, Adobes entire product now has Dual Core / Dual Processor support. Photoshop is included is this patch upgrade. Also includes Adobe PDF Pro. which I use as a server application at work. Even if you have tommorows equiptment, you are NOW READY! to run tommorows software.

I rather be prepared, then not have the right gear on hand.

Its like having a high end DSLR and L Glass, you might not NEED it, but when that fast running whatever it is jumps in front of you, your got the technology to shoot the sh1t out of it =)

Im not trying to get on anyones bad side, but ive been doing this for a long time, and have seen the market change many times when it comes to computers.

[StealthLude]

Hi David - I would guess when you purchased your 2.5 year old system that you were doing video editing - You probally purchased a system that you could use right away - although I'm not sure if any Adobe Apps were written for Dual processors 2.5 years ago - maybe your video (NLE) was but I doubt it.

Let's jump forward - I'll take those HD's (15K) and put them in an entry level box with a controller card and and a couple of HD coolers and I'll be set for the next year or so. XP should load & boot in about 15 sec and CS2 should load in a couple of secs.

I doubt that.... Unless your running that card on a PCI-E interphase, along with good bus speeds...

Your taking a normal computer and putting some insane hard drive confg. inside. Its all about balance remember?

Alrought it would help, the Raid Card + 15k drives will cost MORE than the crap computer! Your better off with Dual Maxtor 250s with 16/mb casche on Raid 1 or Raid 0 if all you care about is performance.

Step up to raptors and now you have an ently lever server. A better match at a lower price.

[paulohnine]

Ahem.

http://www.apple.com/imac/

[StealthLude]

Ahem.

http://www.apple.com/imac/

Ya man! Perfect entry level system...

Why would i NOT buy that??? Cant expand, cant add 2nd internal hard drive. No Raid Options.

But for the average joe who just wants to edit and print the damn photo, more , MORE than capable.

[Zepher]

although I'm not sure if any Adobe Apps were written for Dual processors 2.5 years ago - maybe your video (NLE) was but I doubt it.

Most of the NLE software from the 90's was dual processor capable, at least the ones I was using.

[StealthLude]

Balance all the way - I'm with you there. I forget how big the L1 cache in my Xeons are, but it's certainly not 2MB - I think they're 1MB chips. It makes a difference as you say, especially for high end server applications.

Dell do make it fairly obvious on the higher end systems what the FSB speed is - that's another thing that matters.

Finally, as you say, good chipsets are worth it - my machine is Intel E7505, which was the best Xeon chipset at the time. E7525 is ubiquitous now - but that only came along much more recently (when the Precision 670 replaced the Precision 650 - that came along with the jump to 800MHz FSB).

The good part of my system is that the Gigabit Ethernet and U320 SCSI are on the PCI-X buses, so I've not got an I/O bandwidth limitation as I would if everything were on a single PCI bus.



David

I too have all my systems including my IBM thinkpad using Gigabit NICS along with a high end VPN switch conencting me to my office from home.

Unfortunatly im not using SCSI drives on my server! So your even more ahead of me than I am. Im having very good luck with my WD Raptors and my Huge array of Maxtor 250 Drives. I am however using a Promice raid card with a 512 MB ECC RAM Chip!!! So im sure that my "Burst" Speeds are just as fast as yours. Keep in mind my raid card cost about $350 bucks w/o the RAM.

Even with that said, there is no substitute for the OLD, been aronud forever, BUT, still the best. and most expencive. SCSI!!!!

[StealthLude]

Most of the NLE software from the 90's was dual processor capable, at least the ones I was using.

Software has typically always been ahead of the hardware... from a typical trend point.

Most GAMES have NOT tho and still do not support Dual Core.

Most pro apps and things like that, do and have. Photoshop being one of my main programs, is a big deal. AND FOR EVERYONE in this forum.

[Zepher]

I was reading somehere, probably on the [H]ard Forums about SCSI not being as good as IDE/SATA on a desktop machine, something about precaching file and whatnot.
I happen to be running 2 Seagate 10K rpm SCSI cheetahs in my system on my old reliable 2940UW card with 3 IDE and 2 Sata drives for mass storage..

My editing machine used to be the same, expept with an 18Gig 10K Rpm Hitachi as the boot drive and 3 IDE and 1 SATA drive for video storage, the SCSI drive died so I replaced it with an 80gig IDE.

[Palladium]

Most of the NLE software from the 90's was dual processor capable, at least the ones I was using.

Capable, really - I'm not aware of any that were optimized to use the second processor - systems ran but didn't actually benefit of dual processing of info.

The second processor just ran didn't process anything - If I remember correctly 2000 Pro only had a small portion of it's code written to use the second processor and that was only to run the windows shell.

Correct me if I wrong but CS was the first Adobe app to actually benefit from a second processor and only with XP Pro.

[paulohnine]

Ya man! Perfect entry level system...

Why would i NOT buy that??? Cant expand, cant add 2nd internal hard drive. No Raid Options.

But for the average joe who just wants to edit and print the damn photo, more , MORE than capable.

What do you mean you cant expand? itll support up to 2.5GB RAM. With my external drive i have 500GB - so what if its not internal?

And why would I want RAID setup for photographs? Thats just ridiculous.

[Zepher]

Capable, really - I'm not aware of any that were optimized to use the second processor - systems ran but didn't actually benefit of dual processing of info.

The second processor just ran didn't process anything - If I remember correctly 2000 Pro only had a small portion of it's code written to use the second processor and that was only to run the windows shell.

Correct me if I wrong but CS was the first Adobe app to actually benefit from a secone processor and only with XP Pro.

I am pretty sure After effects used dual procs back with NT4.0.
Premiere 4.2 I believe used dual procs as well.
Speed Razor Mach 3 used duals as well if I am not mistaken. I used this system way back with 2 blazing fast Pentium 200MMX chips on a Tyan board with Windows NT 4.0.

[Zepher]

And why would I want RAID setup for photographs? Thats just ridiculous.

well, if you are working on a clients project and the drive crashes, most of the time you are SOL, unless you backup everything right away, or keep copies on teh cf cards.

[Palladium]

I am pretty sure After effects used dual procs back with NT4.0.
Premiere 4.2 I believe used dual procs as well.
Speed Razor Mach 3 used duals as well if I am not mistaken. I used this system way back with 2 blazing fast Pentium 200MMX chips on a Tyan board with Windows NT 4.0.

It's my understand that Premiere Pro was the first to benefit from a Dual Core Processor and not Dual Processors.

[paulohnine]

How often are your drives crashing? (im not saying it dosent happen) But a weekly backup seems more than enough.

[Zepher]

I am holding in my hand my old copy of Adobe Premiere 5.0 and the recommended system is an mmx or multi-processor system with windows NT 4.0

[rebellearner]

Okay, Okay it's my turn guys. I just want a new system to run adobe elements4 and store a lot of pictures and have a nice monitor for viewing. I'm taken in as much as I can:oops: The dell laptop that I have is a year old and works great but I don't think is has more than 10Gig for a hard drive. My other Dell is a couple years old and starting to do weird things it has maybe 4 if I'm right. My wife does medical transcribing so she doesn't need anything but word perfect, but the monitor looks bad so I want to up grade her system and be able to do some fun stuff on it too. I know you guys want to help but I think you need know I don't know that much about computers. It's kind of funny because I'm an electrician and I work for a big Ins. company with about 2000 employees and yes I do all there network cabling and setting up computers. I have lots of PC tech at hand but I just started taking cool picture about three months ago and now I want to know more. So thank you very much Stealthlude. do you think there is any hope for my old desktop? Should I just up grade stuff in that and get a monitor to go with it or is it simpler to find a new one. Thanks a lot guys but my brian hurts now and it's almost time for MSU to play some B-ball and I got to cheer on the spartans:lol:

[Zepher]

How often are your drives crashing? (im not saying it dosent happen) But a weekly backup seems more than enough.

Not very often, but when they do crash it is a pain in teh ass.

[Palladium]

I am holding in my hand my old copy of Adobe Premiere 5.0 and the recommended system is an mmx or multi-processor system with windows NT 4.0

IMPO - that's just marketing and independent testing done back then confirmed that it made no difference.

[StealthLude]

How often are your drives crashing? (im not saying it dosent happen) But a weekly backup seems more than enough.


Maby your not away of HOW important RAID is??? Apple makes Raid 0 and Raid 1 configurations STANDARD on ALL G5 Powermac computers.

STANDARD...

They know what on their pro systems, almost all studio work (and home) is done on Raid 1 (Mirroring)

Backing up every week isnt good enought. Raid gives you seamless, REALTIME, redundant data backup. Apple can see the advantage and importance in this. Im NOT knocking your system, im just saying why its useful.

Sure, you can backup all the time. I too have an external drive for my G5. Along with a raid 1 array.

And WHY would you need it for photos? That questions shouldnt even be asked... You can never take that photo again, ever. Its a one time deal. Protecting it with another harddrive is pennys..

Drive do crash, sooner or later, it can happen. Brownouts, blackouts can cause this type of faliur. Does not always have to be a manufacturing problem. I safegaurd data with Raid, My backups are always stored in a DIFFERENT LOCATION, Note my VPN connection beteween Home and Work, AND... Battery Backups.

My friends daughter who is only 17, has a 1.8 G5 , Raid 1, External and an APC battery and she only uses a point and shoot. she can see the value of protecting a photo.

[StealthLude]

Not to mention the time i spend editing on photoshop? Its hours and hours, that to me is worth the extra $.

Maxtor 250 GIG Server Grade harddrive with 16mb casche is only $120 on newegg.com

For an additional $120, u get real time mirrored backup! Since the apple already has the raid 0 and 1 built into its motherboard.

[StealthLude]

Okay, Okay it's my turn guys. I just want a new system to run adobe elements4 and store a lot of pictures and have a nice monitor for viewing. I'm taken in as much as I can:oops: The dell laptop that I have is a year old and works great but I don't think is has more than 10Gig for a hard drive. My other Dell is a couple years old and starting to do weird things it has maybe 4 if I'm right. My wife does medical transcribing so she doesn't need anything but word perfect, but the monitor looks bad so I want to up grade her system and be able to do some fun stuff on it too. I know you guys want to help but I think you need know I don't know that much about computers. It's kind of funny because I'm an electrician and I work for a big Ins. company with about 2000 employees and yes I do all there network cabling and setting up computers. I have lots of PC tech at hand but I just started taking cool picture about three months ago and now I want to know more. So thank you very much Stealthlude. do you think there is any hope for my old desktop? Should I just up grade stuff in that and get a monitor to go with it or is it simpler to find a new one. Thanks a lot guys but my brian hurts now and it's almost time for MSU to play some B-ball and I got to cheer on the spartans:lol:


Honestly... none of your computer are junk. I keep taking about all my "high end" computers. But let me tell you, I still have my P1, P2, and P3 computers!

Most of my P2 and P3 systems are used as data entry terminals. Everything has a use. I hate it when people say its out of date, maby for them, but there are places in the world people dont even have a computer.

I started off with computers knowing nothing at all, all you need to do is take in a litle intrest and learn at your own pace. Its always nice to have a good computer on your hand to do it with.

And a big part of owning a computer, and i dont care what anyone says, is general MAINTENCE! Its like a CAR, you need to defrag the hard drive, virus scan, clean inside out every once in a while, since dust can cause overheating. Its basic stuff. Defragging is prolly the one thing that will keep your system running smooth.

I wish you all the luck with your purchase. If you dont have the ability to build from the ground up. Get a Dell, just dont get something too "entry level" You get what you pay for, a $400 computer is going to have its downfalls, even tho its a pentium WHATEVER...

Im serious when i say, I dont mind you calling me when you are ready to buy. Helping people with computers is something i enjoy. As people on this forum enjoy helping me learning how to shoot like a pro.

[StealthLude]

well, if you are working on a clients project and the drive crashes, most of the time you are SOL, unless you backup everything right away, or keep copies on teh cf cards.


Its so important to have RAID.. Its REALTIME, ACTIVE, as soon as you hit save, its done twice.

I am ever prepared for fire and theft! I have a server (storage only) at another location to backup all my data, along with FTP space.

If you backup on an external, and someone comes to your house and take everything. Good luck with that.

You can never have TOO many copies, just dont keep them all in the same place!

I probably sound crazy, but you havent talked to an IT Manager at a firm who does server management... They make me sound like i dont even backup.

[StealthLude]

Capable, really - I'm not aware of any that were optimized to use the second processor - systems ran but didn't actually benefit of dual processing of info.

The second processor just ran didn't process anything - If I remember correctly 2000 Pro only had a small portion of it's code written to use the second processor and that was only to run the windows shell.

Correct me if I wrong but CS was the first Adobe app to actually benefit from a second processor and only with XP Pro.


I dont know what you have agaisnt dual processors or dual core. But if you dont have one or own one, Then you have no idea what the benifits are.

Have you ever used WinZip or RAR software for compression? I take 4 gigs worth of pictures off a micro drive , RAR my RAW files to archive. And guess what, RAR and ZIP software uses and has been using dual processor coding for YEARS. RARing and Ziping files can be a pain in the ass, expecially if your still trying to use the computer when its working. Having Dual Core or Dual Processor is NEVER a disadvantage. Its not always about graphics apps. Some of the most simple programs take advantage of it.

I bet your going to start beef with Apples QUAD processer G5 now. Now you have 4 processors in an apple. They has to tell you something. Dual Dual Core. Eventually, everything will start supporting this.

Its like having Dual NICS, or a load balancing router, or 2 doors on your car. you may not always need it, but when you do, its nice to have.

[StealthLude]

I just have to say this, if i get banned from this forum... ITS OK...

Your woman prolly , hopefully has two boobs... If your playing with them, you might not be able to "support" both. For thoes who can, same difference, hes multitasking and getting things done twice as fast.

Im prolly a total jerk but whatever. Im very confident in what i do with computers.

[Palladium]

...I bet your going to start beef with Apples QUAD processer G5 now. Now you have 4 processors in an apple. They has to tell you something. Dual Dual Core. Eventually, everything will start supporting this...

Is that because it takes 4 Apple's processors to equal PC speeds ;) (relax it's a joke)

but is this the last big push for Apple before Intel's are used? ;)

[Palladium]

...I dont know what you have agaisnt dual processors or dual core. But if you dont have one or own one, Then you have no idea what the benifits are..

Along time ago I bought into the hype before I know there was no software I used that supported it. Don't worry about me I learned from my mistakes - they say I'm better for it. ;)

[StealthLude]

Is that because it takes 4 Apple's processors to equal PC speeds ;) (relax it's a joke)

but is this the last big push for Apple before Intel's are used? ;)

I belive so, I think they will contiune to make Quad or better, but the reason for the siwtch to intels processors are i belive just manufacturing cost. + The intel chip is a great chip. Apples loosing a lot of market share, its only the graphics industry and the damn iPod keeping the alive. Even Bill Gates owns soo much apple shares that he can influence decesions at apple.


We have all bought into things that we dont need... Some more than others. It just makes you smarter, but it shouldnt hold you back when bigger and better things DO come out that you can use.

When it really boils down to it... You just need the RIGHT TOOL for the job. If you playing video games, anything Dual isnt the right tool. Thats my AMD makes the FX line of processors for games. Sure they cost 800-900 for a processor.. But its the right tool.

I dont want my dentist putting a Dewalt drill in my mouth, so everyones systems will vary depending on their needs.

I took me a long time to be able to filter out my wants and needs... I prolly dont need a lot of the photograpy gear i like. But I SURE AS HELL WANT IT.

[Crypto]

sooo, Rebellearner, what kind of computer you gonna buy? lol

[Desertraptor]

If you are wanting a fast machine then you will have to have one built to spec.
AMD Athlon if you are going to build new. The 64bit Athlon kicks ass over Intel. Bang for buck.

Buying off the shelf systems will leave you wanting.

Things that matter are

Motherboard - people buy cheap MB and expect miracles. Bus speed is what you need to handle the power of the CPU and the RAM.
CPU - 3400 Athlon 64 minimun or better
RAM - 1Gb plus
Video Card - Fast nVidia or ATI Radeon

When you are processing images these are what are going to make things fly. Fast drives for accessing and saving files. Once applications are loaded into memory drive speed is negligable. With a gig or more RAM you wont be accessing your drive much.

Having said that Seial ATA 7200 rpm atleast.
As far as size goes. I'd rather a couple of smaller drives than one large one. No point loosing everything if something fails.

[bokeh'ed]

like to ask the experts here, can i disable winxp's swapfile if i have 2GB of ram (which is primarily used for PS-CS2)? since if anything in memory is going to be written to the swapfile, it imposes a penalty in the I/O performance.

[Desertraptor]

You can set your own swapfile/pagefile size. MS do not recommend disabling it.
With 2Gb of RAM it shouldn't use much swapfile anyway.

See here
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000422.html

You'll notice here it specifically mentions Photoshop as an app that requires a pagefile.

[StealthLude]

You can set your own swapfile/pagefile size. MS do not recommend disabling it.
With 2Gb of RAM it shouldn't use much swapfile anyway.

See here
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000422.html

You'll notice here it specifically mentions Photoshop as an app that requires a pagefile.

Yes, thats one thing that you can do. I have actually done it myself and there is only ONE thing I can mention should you decide to do this...

Buy a battery backup. Should you computer have a powefaliur durring a paging proceess and the data is inside the RAM (this also applies to RAM driven Raid Controler Cards)

Your Data is Lost and or Corrupt.

Buy a battery, turn off paging, enjoy the speed!

Great Post!!!

[StealthLude]

like to ask the experts here, can i disable winxp's swapfile if i have 2GB of ram (which is primarily used for PS-CS2)? since if anything in memory is going to be written to the swapfile, it imposes a penalty in the I/O performance.


Typically i dont like to tell people about this.. Since its my "PC Secret" and typically my friends are so WOWed by the speed of my computer in photoshop and here is why...

If you want absolute insane speeds in photoshop when using your scratch disk... You should get a 2nd harddrive and or 3rd where system files and photoshop isnt loaded and use it as a scratch disk. Like Raptor or SCSI drive.

NOW FOR MY SECRET!

I have 4 gigs of ram in my AMD Dual Core system that i use for Photoshop... You can make a "Virtual Ram Drive" aka "Ram Disk" Mine is a 2 gig Drive, leaving my system with 2 Gigs of system ram left.

The computer will assign a Drive Letter like W: Drive, and then go into photoshop, assign W drive as your scratch disk... And then try applying a filter. Your going to cry and wonder why you didnt do this before. Sure you "loose" 2 gigs of system ram, but you got a scratch disk thats faster than any harddrive in the world.

Also, like my previous post said. Battery Backup for blackouts/brownouts are a MUST... If not a requirement...

Enjoy.

[StealthLude]

I forgot to mention, should you NOT want to turn off your paging...

You should move the file to a drive that is NOT your main C drive... For example, partition a Raptor Drive into a 4 gig drive, and set the paging file dedicated on a SATA drive. Since you are using a large chunk of your RAM as your scratch disk, your not going to use the raptor drive as your Photoshop scratch disk.

The speed increase with these simple changes will be ... more than worth your time.

[bokeh'ed]

great stuff u're having there, but how to really create a virtual (ram) drive on winxp? in the good old days of DOS, you can put statements into the config.sys to configure ram drives, but really, how to create one in xp?

Typically i dont like to tell people about this.. Since its my "PC Secret" and typically my friends are so WOWed by the speed of my computer in photoshop and here is why...

If you want absolute insane speeds in photoshop when using your scratch disk... You should get a 2nd harddrive and or 3rd where system files and photoshop isnt loaded and use it as a scratch disk. Like Raptor or SCSI drive.

NOW FOR MY SECRET!

I have 4 gigs of ram in my AMD Dual Core system that i use for Photoshop... You can make a "Virtual Ram Drive" aka "Ram Disk" Mine is a 2 gig Drive, leaving my system with 2 Gigs of system ram left.

The computer will assign a Drive Letter like W: Drive, and then go into photoshop, assign W drive as your scratch disk... And then try applying a filter. Your going to cry and wonder why you didnt do this before. Sure you "loose" 2 gigs of system ram, but you got a scratch disk thats faster than any harddrive in the world.

Also, like my previous post said. Battery Backup for blackouts/brownouts are a MUST... If not a requirement...

Enjoy.

[rebellearner]

stealthlude,
I'm back are you there:D

I want thank everyone for there input. I have been reading these post over and over and tring to understand as much as I can. I would love to build my own system but I have way to many hobbies as is. I did try and build my own through dell so look at this and tell me if there is something missing or I don't need. This is just a build up and put in my wish list. Some of this stuff I still don't understand, but just went with what people recomended...

Thanks

P.S. that was not the final price there were some other coupons that brought it down $200 more.


http://img.dell.com/images/global/configurator/chassis/xps_400_cfg.JPG
http://ecomm.dell.com/dellstore/images/spacer.gif SYSTEM COMPONENTS http://ecomm.dell.com/dellstore/images/spacer10.gifXPS 400 Qty 1 Pentium® D Processor 830 with Dual Core Technology (3GHz, 800FSB), Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 EditionUnit Price $1,814.00 Catalog Number: 29 Module Description XPS 400Pentium® D Processor 830 with Dual Core Technology (3GHz, 800FSB)Operating SystemGenuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 EditionMemory2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 4DIMMsKeyboardDell USB KeyboardMonitorsFEATURED UPGRADE!! 17 inch Ultrasharp™ 1704FPT Digital Flat PanelVideo Cards256MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) nVidia GeForce 6800Hard DrivesDataSafe 160GB (Includes main hard drive plus a hidden reserve hard drive)Floppy Drive and Media Reader13 in 1 Media Card ReaderMouseDell Optical USB MouseNetwork InterfaceIntegrated 10/100/1000 EthernetModem56K PCI Data Fax ModemAdobe SoftwareAdobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0CD or DVD DriveDual Drives: 16x DVD-ROM Drive + 16x DVD+/-RW w/dbl layer write capabilitySoundIntegrated 7.1 Channel AudioSpeakersDell A215 SpeakersOffice Software (not included in Windows XP)No Productivity Suite - Corel WordPerfect® word processor onlyAnti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed)McAfee SecurityCenter with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 15-monthsHardware Warranty1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr At-Home Service, and 1Yr HW Warranty SupportHome PC InstallationNo Installation Dial-Up Internet Access6 Months of America Online Membership IncludedMiscellaneousAward Winning Service and SupportFinancial Software (Preinstalled)No QuickBooks package selected- Includes limited use trialOperating System Backup & RecoveryPC Restore recovery system by SymantecTV Tuners and Remote ControlsSingle TV Tuner + Remote Control - watch and record TV on your PCDell Digital EntertainmentStarter Entertainment Pack -Basic digital Music, Photo, and Casual GamingTOTAL:$1,814.00

[cgratti]

I would definately look into a Mac. OS X is sweet and stable. Adobe CS2 is truly a great program for the serious photographer.

Look into a Powermac or iMac G5.

http://www.apple.com/imac/

[Palladium]

I'm not recommending this but showing the links to balance out options...

a little better than entry level...$700 AR
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=332837&pfp=BROWSE


more memory... $40 AR
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=305222&pfp=cat3

[rebellearner]

Thanks Palladium,

That is another option I was looking at. I have a comp usa a couple miles away and was thinking I would stop and talk to someone there.
The link you sent shows a pentium4 but didn't see that it was a Dual Core, the dells were pentium Dual Core and I thought that was better....

P.S. cgratti,

Sorry I didn't get back with you. This will be my wifes computer too and she doesn't want to change her stuff for work so no apple here.

Thanks