AM I IN THE WRONG FORUM ??

[TimNYC24]

I wish the "VIEWERS" here would please leave critiques of these photos. If you look down the list, some posts asking for critiquing have over 50 views, yet only 3 or 4 comments. COME ON PEOPLE !! If you can take the time to look, PLEASE take another minute and let the photographer know how you feel. It's only common courtesy.
THANK YOU :)

[SoCal69]

Tim:

No offense, but many people (me in particular) sometimes may not feel comfortable leaving critiques. As for me, I am pretty much a rank amateur. I browse this forum to learn new techniques and pick up ideas. I may not feel comfortable telling someone how to make a particular photo better, especially when I may not even know how! Sometimes I may have an idea, and may provide my thoughts, but a lot of the time, I would be of little or no help and will keep my mouth shut.

[Conk]

Unfortunately Tim thats the way it goes. Many people feel the same way socal does. Also some photos may be just plain unappealing to the point people just do not want to leave a critique of negativity with no positives.
You will find that there are members here that will in-fact give a great critique as long as they are at the site. You'll just have to wait and sit tight until they show.
Just keep bumping your post to the top where it can be seen.

[TimNYC24]

SoCal and Conk, I hear you, but I really feel if you take the time then drop a sentence or two. Personaly I don't care if the person just picked up a cam for the first time just yesterday. At least tell me what you like and/or dislike. It's frustrating to see 100 views and only 2 comments, plus I think it's rude. I mean if you are in this forum, then do what the forum asks, you know?

Thanks again guys.

[pingupingu]

you know, when you use to view hundreds and hundreds of pictures on such forums , it is not possible to leave comment on each picture. For my own part , generally, i leave comment on picture that really struck me ( positivelly very often), it means one or 2 percent. i leave negative comments on very few pictures, because i dont like to hurt people. I always try do do constructive comments, with exception with people which do 'self rating' or who give really bads rating or comments to other people, wheras there own pictures are objectivey bads.

you have to admit that thousand of people are waiting too some comments on their pictures , thinking that their pics deserve a comment, so that there is a choice to do ...

[SoCal69]

pingupingu makes a good point also. Plus, my feeling has always been that the share photos board is a more appropriate place to leave comments such as "I like this" or "I dont like that." I always felt that the critique board was geared towards critiquing a photo; that is, providing specific information geared towards making a photo better (lighting, composition, and other techniques). Given the wonderful photos that are often posted, many times, I just can't do that...not becuase I don't want to, but because I just don't have the expertise. When I have something specific that I feel I can contribute, I will usually add a post. I always felt that the posters in this board want specific ideas and information rather than simple statements which reflect my personal like or dislike of a particular photo. Be that as it may, if the general consensus is otherwise, I am more than happy to provide a general comment about a photo.

[gandini]

Nice conversation!
Tim's first point was well made and has merit as a literal interpretation of a critique board. There's no doubt that the relatively low number of images posted here compared to Share Photos is testament that people actually think about which board to post to before hitting the send button.
If you want people to see your photo and make non-critical comments about it, then the Share board is the place. If you are seeking comment of all flavors and critique, then Critique is the board. It *is* our obligation to comment and critique photos on this board since that's what distinguishes it from the Share board.
I don't think all critique should be about technique, hence you don't have to be trained, or experienced to make a comment and criticism. There are many Ansel Adams images I don't like and am willing to say so, but I really am in no position to comment on technique. I think the only requirement is that you attempt to explain your comments. For example: "I don't like this image, as for me it's visually too busy and it lacks a focal point" etc.
There seems to be a third rail when it comes to art critique: since beauty is in the beholder's eye, there's really no objective truth about good or bad, ugly or pleasing. Oddly this isn't true of all creative expressions, since there's absolutely no arguement that Miles Davis' later music was crap!
Of course, there's always an alternative: photoSIG. Now there's a place where the silence is deafening--if you can figure out how naked women photos get scores of 7.0 while my snail photos get 1.0, kindly share with me (on this, or the Share board...!)
cheers

[TimNYC24]

Dr Phil eloquently translated my feelings into English.
Thank you, gandini :)

[TimNYC24]

Followup point..... Stoneh posted today asking for comments and less than 5% of the total viewers responded. With that as an example to the lack of responses ( Makes me believe people don't give a damn here ) we get here, people will not stay. We want MORE people enjoying this site. Let's not drive them away :)

[gandini]

I couldn't resist doing a little calculation, being a statistician and economist! Looking at the rather crude statistic of replies to views ratio, I calculated the simple average of this ratio for the top 5 posts on the latest page and the bottom 5 posts (physical order on the page is what I mean by top and bottom.) This is close to a random, if not small sample, for the two boards--Share and Critique.
Average Share reply-view ratio is 7.2%
Average Critique reply-view ratio is 6.4%
These are not statistically different from each other at the 95% confidence level.
I conclude that forum members are not discriminating against Critique posts. Of course it *is* disappointing that a board specifically aimed at critique should not get a higher response rate than a board that is primarily for sharing and showing off.

cheers

[Laziferous]

I usually don't even come to this forum, because I know that being so new to photography... I don't have much (or anything) to offer. I would sound like an idiot trying to give some kind of advice, on something I know nothing about really.

I don't want to post images here either, because I know they aren't up to par yet. I don't have much confidence in my skills. Maybe when I do, I'll come here and allow some things to be critiqued... but, on the other hand... how will I learn, if I don't get any input on what I'm doing?

Hmm...

Now that I think about it, I put some things in the share forum, and asked if anyone thought the images were over exposed. Maybe subconciously, I think I'm more likely to like what I hear in that forum... as opposed to this one.

Now I'm curious. I think I will post those photos here now.

*goes to start a new thread*

EDIT: Heh, I didn't post the images I was talking about... I posted the sunset one. At least I posted though! :D

[TimNYC24]

Laz, we are doomed to failure if we don't learn from our mistakes, hence the original post :)

[RedShoesGirl]

TimNYC24 wrote:
...snipped...Personaly I don't care if the person just picked up a cam for the first time just yesterday. At least tell me what you like and/or dislike. It's frustrating to see 100 views and only 2 comments, plus I think it's rude. I mean if you are in this forum, then do what the forum asks, you know?

Thanks again guys.

Just because people are in this forum does not mean they HAVE to or even want to comment. They may be here to learn from other's critiques. There is no ONE way to enjoy or paraticipate in a forum. As many have said they do not feel comfortable critiquing.

As for me, I don't like to be the one that says "this shot sucks because it has no artistic merit at all in my eyes" after everyone has said how nice it is. And just positive comments don't teach anything. Wanting to hear how great a photo is ego-stroking which is conterproductive

And frankly, detailed critiques require a lot of time which lots of folks don't have.

So, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is participation.

[gandini]

Tim:
Over on the Share board is a thread called Infrared with Photoshop. Check it out as nearly all the posts are critiques! So maybe you *are* in the wrong forum! Go post your images on Share and ask people what they think--if you get no critique you're in the same place as if you'd just posted to share. If you do get a critique you're ahead. Then let this board die its natural death.
Another thing to consider about the reply-view ratio: the number of views goes up as the same people keep going back to the thread to see if anyone replied to their post. I must have contributed significantly to the views on this thread. Of course, since I am replying nearly everytime, my reply-view ratio contribution is 1.0!

I agree with RedShoesGirl that there is no requirement to post. I think I mentioned an obligation out of some sense of being a member of a community--but only if you have something to say.

cheers

[Leighow]

TimNYC24 wrote:
If you can take the time to look, PLEASE take another minute and let the photographer know how you feel. It's only common courtesy.
THANK YOU :)

TIM

WHAT ARE YOUR OBJECTIVES AS A PHOTOGRAPHER
****************************************
You know, it would help if photographers gave us some idea of their photographic objectives.

Mine are:
----------
(for the present) to photograph nature as the eye sees it ... and (as best I can) photograph it in a way that some of Canada's great artisits saw my country. In practice that means that I; practice on flowers, miss out on all aniamls (G2), but, I grasp trees and landscapes when I see them!

You objective appears to be:
------------------------------------
to learn and explore a variety of opportunities.

+ All of your flower/insect hots are great -- partly because today's camera's are terrific.

+ You laser shots are fine, but I was not there to observe the alternative shots.

+ Your Antelope Crossing is my favourite, It had mood.
I would have liked to see the original.

+ The blue flower is as nice as they get. You cannot beat this.. but.. I hope your shot a dozen images and picked this one ( I would have opted for sparkeling water ( personal taste).

+ Your ballon shots are great record shots. Seen 10 by 8 size they must look great, but as Mitch (I think) said, they are bit repetitious.

So Tim, it's back to you. What do you want your images to be?

HOWIE

[TimNYC24]

gandini wrote:
Tim:
Over on the Share board is a thread called Infrared with Photoshop. Check it out as nearly all the posts are critiques! So maybe you *are* in the wrong forum! Go post your images on Share and ask people what they think--if you get no critique you're in the same place as if you'd just posted to share. If you do get a critique you're ahead. Then let this board die its natural death.
Another thing to consider about the reply-view ratio: the number of views goes up as the same people keep going back to the thread to see if anyone replied to their post. I must have contributed significantly to the views on this thread. Of course, since I am replying nearly everytime, my reply-view ratio contribution is 1.0!

I agree with RedShoesGirl that there is no requirement to post. I think I mentioned an obligation out of some sense of being a member of a community--but only if you have something to say.

cheers

Phil, with the exception to the referal about Reds reply, I find your last reply incredibly contradictory and confusing.

[TimNYC24]

Howie, my main objective is to become a better photographer. I don't always see, nor does anyone with the exception of the geniuses, what is appealing or technicaly correct in a photo. For that reason I post and expect people in this Critique Forum, to tell me what they like and dislike about my photo. Without that input, how am I or anyone else going to get better?

[Laziferous]

TimNYC24 wrote:
Laz, we are doomed to failure if we don't learn from our mistakes, hence the original post :)
I hear you bro.

[gandini]

Tim: I had my tongue in my cheek with these comments, sorry. I was trying to point out what seems to be a contradiction: that messages on Share actually attract critique and those on Critique do not! This made me think out loud that maybe these boards should be merged. I appreciate Pekka's original intent, but many forums and sites do not offer both Share and Critique (but this may distinguish CDPF from those others.)
My second comment that you found odd was another reflection on my statistical analysis (which attracted zero comments, btw.) In this thread, for example, you and I have contributed significantly to its reply-view ratio, as we discuss that very thing. Another example: look at any thread started by Don Ellis or marie--you'll find a high reply-view ration because both those members reply to any and all messages posted to their threads, thereby increasing the "success" of the thread, as well as bumping it back to the top.

Just some observations,
as always,
Cheers,

[CDubeau]

After reading this discussion I have decided that I can add my critique to some of the pictures I look at. I will usually look at a few pictures and then write a review on one or two that I feel I have some thing to contribute to the picture.

What I find helps on occasion is if the photographer asks for specific commentary regarding one particular aspect of the picture. It makes it easier and much quicker to provide some feed back on the particular question.

The last thing is I hope that people realize the critique is just that one person’s point of view. I try to look at each picture as I would one of my own. My only qualification for this endeavour is an interest in photography, and a desire to learn and improve.

Carl

[boyhowdy]

This is a great conversation and I AGREE TOTALLY WITH TIM...for one reason AND THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!

As Chuck stated, he doesn't feel qualified to critique a photo since he is an amateur. Well SO AM I!!! I come to THIS specific forum NOT to post a picture to get critiqued because I don't consider most of mine that great yet. I COME TO THIS PARTICULAR FORUM TO SEE WHAT MORE EXPERIENCED PHOTOGRAPHERS SAY TO CONSTRUCTIVELY IMPROVE OTHERS' PHOTOS!!!

Sorry for shouting, but I think being able to see what others' comments are on a particular shot really helps me become a better photographer. There is one of a gorilla and his baby. A comment was made that it had a blue tinge. I worked with levels on black and white point and then with color balance on highlights and midtones on the blue and it REALLY made a difference!! To me, this "critique" was invaluable because I did not see the blue tinge (or really think about it) until it was mentioned. I also read that the picture should have been cropped to cut out the right portion. I tried that and it "centered" the subjects which I don't consider a "plus" in a picture. I also darkened the log the baby was sitting on and it DID help the overexposed log.

This critique DID help me. I am going to comment on the good points made by the poster but also disagree with the "centering" of the photo. I think as an amateur that I can still see a good photo and I may not know how to express how to fix or improve it but my comments should be appreciated unless it is just an outright flame which doesn't belong on this board anyway!

I can understand Chuck's "fear" of sounding like an amateur in response, but one amateur can always help another amateur because everyone sees things differently, and the more feedback the better!!!

THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE!!! When I leave a post to be critiqued and it has 5 replies and 100 views, it depresses me. Why did I not get more replies? What did I do wrong? Is it a boring picture? I'm sure we all look back at our posts to see what was said and when nothing is said, I think it DOES affect us all adversely!!!


KNUFF SAID!!!

Patrick

[jasenh7]

I'm in agreement with everyone here I think. I agree that there aren't enough replies to the pictures posted here.

I also am very amature in terms of photography. I tend not to reply not because I don't feel comfortable but because I lack the knowlege to form a well thought out post. Often I may not even see with my untrained eye the things that need fixing. Or I may feel that something isn't right and can't put my finger on what it is. That is what being an amature is all about, not knowing very much but showing a willingness to learn.

That said, I also come here to see what the more experienced photographers have to say. I try to learn as much as I can from their comments and to become a better photographer through that. In addition some of the things I have learned from mearly reading I've felt comfortable enough to share later on another picture when I see it again. I didn't contribute to the first picture but what I learned helped me to contribute later on.

Also, let's not forget that just because a photo is uninteresting to you doesn't mean that you necessarily have to offer feedback. There are a good many subjects that just don't interest me. It's not the artists fault that I'm not interested and it's not to say that others may be interested and may be able to offer constructive criticism. I'm not going to post that "You shouldn't photograph flowers because I think they are boring" as that doesn't help the artist. It's just a matter of taste and what you find interesting.

As far as folks feeling afraid to post negative comments, I don't understand that. This is critique. If you've ever taken an art class and undergone the professor critiquing your art, it's usually nowhere near positive. I think that while some things can be learned from positive comments, much more can be learned from the negative ones. I certainly am far from taking perfect pictures and when someone points out whats wrong with my picture it helps me later.

In addition to all that has already been stated here....I find that folks are much more selective of what they post on this forum. There tends to be a better quality of photograph on this page due to this and I enjoy the images posted here and am more likely to head to this forum than any other.

[RichardtheSane]

My short addition to this and it is regarding the number of views.
I rarly post in critique because I currently come here to learn photography. I look into share more often for that reason.
When I do cruise through critique I will often hop from thread to thread then after viewing a few times I will see if what I am thinking about a photo needs saying.
When I eventually do post, I may have viewed a thread up to four times before making a post.
Also If you look at the number of regular posters in the forums, and then the number of people logged in you will find that a large number of people will real all the posts but never reply to any - here to learn like I originaly came for.

I think what I am saying really is people are people, and use the forum in a way that suits them. No-one wants someone preaching to them on when they should be posting.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Another stupid point,. (or perhaps the FIRST stupid one :D )

The "views" stats are misleading.

First off I am now responding here having "veiwed" it at least three times myself.

Any time someone posts,. it is counted as a second view,.. even for the original poster. IE there will ALLLWAYS be AT LEAST exactly DOUBLE the number of views to the number of posts.

It is simply the way the forum engine works.

I open this thread,. there is a view,.. I post a response,. it refreshes my view to include my post,. there is the second view.

If I make a spelling mistake,. (who me?) and I decide it is so bad I need to edit it,, again it refreshes my view,. again it adds to the veiw count.

If YOU make any edits to your initial post,. each one counts as a veiw.... etc.

Every time you duck in here to check up on who has responded to your post?

Yep you guessed it,. a view :)

So 50 views may be a lot less people looking than you think.

[Pekka]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
So 50 views may be a lot less people looking than you think.

Yes, but as it seems there are now 50-100 people browsing the forum at same time 24/7 you're bound to get more and more views each day, if not else then by pure luck :)

An good'old BBS era trick to lure people into reading your posts is to use clear, descriptive, catchy and interesting subject lines. So "some new photos" is much less likely to get viewers than "My grandma and her Ferguson on sunset field".

[henkbos]

Well, let's add my 2cts:

- the fact that you post a pic in the critique forum does not mean that you are ENTITLED to it
- I will only add comments when I think a pic can be improved
- I will hardly ever follow a link (takes too much time)
- I am more inclined to give comments when specific questions are asked
- there are many forums with great shots. Unfortunately there is only soo much time in a day.

[RichardtheSane]

- I will hardly ever follow a link (takes too much time)
[off topic]
Henkbos, buy doing that unfortunatly you are actually cutting out a percentage of users (including myself) who are unable to embed images through no fault of their own. I have to post all my images as links because when I enter the correct UBB code the forum deletes the first close-square bracked on the IMG tag meaning all my attempts at embedding just gave a link anyway. I am not the only user who has come across this little problem.
.... I'm not having a go, just asing yourself and other readers to take this into consideration. :)

[Conk]

I agree to a certain extent what you are saying. The links I do not follow are for critique on multiple photos.

[henkbos]

Agree with you Richard, but I had to bite the bullet as well. On the other hand, if you want critique, the first thing you should do it to make it as easy as possible to have access to your photos.

Stupid question: did you ever try to enter the link using 2 brackets at the start?

[iDan]

TimNYC24 wrote:
I wish the "VIEWERS" here would please leave critiques of these photos. If you look down the list, some posts asking for critiquing have over 50 views, yet only 3 or 4 comments. COME ON PEOPLE !! If you can take the time to look, PLEASE take another minute and let the photographer know how you feel. It's only common courtesy.
THANK YOU :)


1) Maybe there is a lot of people (like me!!!), who don't speak english.

2) You need to register in order to be able to post messages

iDan