First DSLR with real-time LCD viewing

[chris clements]

Are Olympus just trying to sell a few more of the ugliest DSLR ever made, or is this a new chapter opening?
I haven't read how they're acheiving this, but if someone could develop a high-res real-time LCD along with a high-res EVF, then the mirror and prism would become obsolete.

[cdifoto]

Are Olympus just trying to sell a few more of the ugliest DSLR ever made, or is this a new chapter opening?
I haven't read how they're acheiving this, but if someone could develop a high-res real-time LCD along with a high-res EVF, then the mirror and prism would become obsolete.

I'm just going to copy and paste what I said about it on another forum:

Not to be a turd, but how useful is this live preview REALLY going to be for those digicammers? It can't be used with autofocus (how many digicammers really use manual focus?), and there are quite a few mirrors in there that could go out of alignment (maybe). Even if a digicammer does want to manual focus...how easy is it really going to be on the LCD? Pretty difficult I'd imagine to hold the camera out, steady, watch LCD, compose, MF, press shutter...

I'm guessing the live preview won't be for catching fleeting moments...but then isn't that what a lot of dSLRs are for (when quality is king)? And isn't it also why people buy P&S cams? To capture moments when the moment is more important than lugging the gear?

I can see people buying it thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread....and then getting frustrated by it.

[tim]

I think using the screen to frame your image will be slower, and it'll be harder to hold the camera steady. Sure if it was a feature I might use it a for a few shots (eg camera held way up in the air or way down by the ground), but i'd not pay extra for it.

[BottomBracket]

I think it is a great idea. If the LCD screen swings out and swivels, it opens up a lot of useful shooting positions that I use for street photography. Also, live preview is great for exposure control, as you can set it to see where parts of the pic are clipping, without having to check the histogram.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Forget the LCD live preview, and give us live histogram in the viewfinder. Yesss.

[FlipsidE]

Forget the LCD live preview, and give us live histogram in the viewfinder. Yesss.Now *that* would be worth upgrading for!

[cdifoto]

Now *that* would be worth upgrading for!


Yeah but only if the dang viewfinder is a LOT larger. I have enough trouble seeing through my XT tunnel to compose...let alone look at a histogram!

[roanjohn]

So with the introduction of the Oly EVOLT E-330 (http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1226), it seems that live preview on an SLR body is doable.........

And I am not going to lie, as much as I like the "traditional" looking-in-the viewfinder-to-compose-a-shot method........there is something freeing and liberating about shooting with a flip-out LCD on many occasions......

Any thoughts??

Yay or nay??

Ro1 :D

[Ronald S. Jr.]

If it did not hinder the camera's performance in ANY way, then I would say go for it, but I would take a live histogram in the viewfinder over a live preview lcd anyday. Nothing like seeing the scene first hand, and not from a video camera. I'd think it would be hard to make the camera have absolutely NO effect on the image you see on the lcd, though.

[In2Photos]

I can't get the link to work but man that would be cool.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Incidentally, that link gives the preview for the right page down at the bottom of the screen, but when you click on it, it goes to microsoft.com.

[roanjohn]

I can't get the link to work but man that would be cool.

OOPPSS.!!!.........fixed!!!

Ro1

[In2Photos]

Um, the camera looks pretty sweet to me.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Nice, but it looks as much like a dslr as the sony f828 does. :confused:

[roanjohn]

Nice, but it looks as much like a dslr as the sony f828 does. :confused:

Nobody can deny that it is UGLY!!! But I'm sure it won't be long before the Canon 1 series cameras will have this feature.............

Ro1

[defordphoto]

I would never pay for this so-called "feature". I don't want to see a live shot through a TV screen. On my point and shoot digital cams I never use the LCD to format my shot. Never. Don't like it at all. My work camera is a Fuji with the EVF and I hate it.

However, I expect to see these kind of features on entry level, consumer grade cameras because that's what they like. I always laugh and chuckle watching people compose their shots on their little P&S cams holding them out at arm's length. Then they wonder why their shots are blurry.

Thumbs down on live LCD from me!

[defordphoto]

Nobody can deny that it is UGLY!!! But I'm sure it won't be long before the Canon 1 series cameras will have this feature.............

Ro1

Stand back from the crack cocaine there buddy! :lol: Ain't no way the pros would accept a camera like that.

[chris clements]

Nobody can deny that it is UGLY!!! But I'm sure it won't be long before the Canon 1 series cameras will have this feature.............

Ro1
Can you explain how this UGLY feature will work?
Are you sure it's a winner?

[dbump]

I'll have to set a reminder in 6 - 12 months to bump this thread back again. It will be interesting at that point to see what the market is reflecting on this trend. I'm guessing live preview and flip LCDs will be standard equipment by then.

There are definitely times when the optical viewfinder is incomparable--likewise, there are times when the LCD is the best way to capture a shot. I'll start sounding like a scratched record, but the advantage of a pivoting LCD is that you don't have to hold the camera out at arms length. Just because some folks have fixed LCDs, or some folks with pivoting LCDs are idiots who don't take advantage of it is no reason to disparage the concept. Flip it out, shoot from the waist. I guarantee that's at least as stable as shooting from eye level.

I'm still surprised by how vehement the opposition to live-preview is. Not sure what's going on there. If it doesn't compromise the optical view, what's the problem? Even if you never use live preview, the pivoting LCD would be worth it, imho--it makes glare a non-issue.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

The only real reason my dad used to hold the camera away from him was because he wears glasses and couldn't focus on the screen that close to his eyes.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I'd like the live LCD for it's pivoting feature.. 99% of the time I'd have no use for it,. but for hard to reach macros,. Astro-photogrpahy and other tripod shooting,. and "P.O.T.H." shots.. (that's "Phototgraphy Over The Horizon".. new term coinde here to describe the hold camera over your head to get the Paparazzi shot ) I think the live LCD would be an added feature.

HOWEVER!
The live LCD only is an added feature if it is truly "added".. if it and an EVF try to REPLACE the real viewfinder.. fuggetabout it.

Canon allready has this feature by the way.. EOS 20D - A (but it doesn't swivle and tilt :( )

[Moppie]

However, I expect to see these kind of features on entry level, consumer grade cameras because that's what they like. I always laugh and chuckle watching people compose their shots on their little P&S cams holding them out at arm's length. Then they wonder why their shots are blurry.



So your saying your sucess is soley because of your camera?




The Olympus E-330 is a clear indicator that this is a future direction for Digital SLR's and that is only a good thing if it dosn't effect the tradtional functionality of the SLR, and its pretty clear in this case that it does.
There is a good review of it on dpreview, and its pretty clear that while its a useful feature, it does interfer, making the view finder darker and limiting some functionality etc.

As a Camera it might not be terriably good, as a concept and an indication its fantastic!
I would expect to see other manufactors quickly follow suit and introduce competeing models that can only improve on the technology.



Its also obvious that there is some resistance to the technology, all I can say is if you don't like it then buy, borrow or steal a camera with a tiltable Live Preview LCD, engage your imagination and go shooting.

[joeseph]

Still quite funny to see people's reactions, on the coupla occasions someone has asked me to use their P&S ( and I use that term loosely) to take their photo, and I use the viewfinder to compose the picture. "no, no - hold it away & look at the picture"
whatever gets results I say. Personally would use a live LCD only when I couldn't physically get my eyeball to the viewfinder - have taken some pics in a server room for example holding the camera roughly where it'd be useful due to not being enough space to put me behind the viewfinder. thankfully being digital could retake until I got the framing right...

[RandyMN]

I bought my wife an Minolta with a very similar feature and I thought for her it was a great, but I prefer the old viewfinder with focus points and a no lcd viewer. Personally I think the video view of the shot is of no help and if Canon does come up with it I will still stick to my SLR mirror. LCD is comparable to the video cameras that are currently out. Maybe the new technology is higher resolution but the minolta is also a higher resolution LCD.

[RandyMN]

And BTW, the Minota also has the LCD in the viefinder so you can look through it the same as your Canon.

[RandyMN]

My BAD... It's not a Minolta it's a Panasonic.

[Tom W]

Live real-time LCD viewing and EVF have a long way to go before they can match the resolution and capabilities of the optical viewfinder. Perhaps in the future, that may be possible, but for now, it's just not there yet.

As for usefulness, I can see having a swiveling viewfinder (like the G-series) for some unique positions and it might be a nice addition, but I'm not willing to give up the optical viewfinder for one. Also, I'm not willing to compromise the sensor's capabilities to to make it live-capable. That is, if I have to use a noisy CCD to get live preview, I'm not in favor of that.

[Tom W]

Oh, BTW, doesn't the 20Da have a specialized live-preview function for astrophotography?

That would mean that Olympus wasn't first with this function.

[roanjohn]

Can you explain how this UGLY feature will work?
Are you sure it's a winner?

I'm talking about the design.........which is ugly............

But as CDS mentioned, a live preview LCD really helps on those difficult to get shots (i.e. ground level, waist level or above the head). I also remembered shooting a dance competition.......and after a hundred or so shots, my right eye socket starts to hurt from pressing it in the viewfinder. Another advantage of a live LCD is with candid/street photography............it is less obvious because you don't have to lift the camera to your eye to compose a shot.........you can just look down with the camera hanging from the strap and start shooting.

Of course, looking through a real optical viewfinder is ideal........but I would pay for the advantage of a live LCD.........especially one that pivots :-)

But these are just my babbling......

Oh, and when shooting portraiture, it is sometimes intimidating for the subject when you are looking through the viewfinder.........in fact, it sometimes help to shoot with a wired remote and the camera on a tripod. I think a live preview will aid you when shooting in the studio as you can see exactly how the scene looks a few steps away from the camera.

Ro1

[defordphoto]

However, I expect to see these kind of features on entry level, consumer grade cameras because that's what they like. I always laugh and chuckle watching people compose their shots on their little P&S cams holding them out at arm's length. Then they wonder why their shots are blurry.

So your saying your sucess is soley because of your camera?


Not sure where you got that from what I said. Not even remotely close.

What I said (basically) is that this would be a great feature on a consumer camera, not a pro camera. Definitely not with the current technology of LCDs and EVFs as there are now. There's no way a pro would put up with the slowness of the screen refreshes. Not the Pros I know anyway.

Now we can go a little this way and say: Do I feel that my camera(s) have contributed to my success as a photographer? Absolutely.

Would someone be able to be a successful photographer using one these things from Olympus? Absolutely.

Will technology move more this way? Probably. I envision super fast LCD/SED/Plasma/Nuclear fold out touch screens someday and Pros using them willingly.

Now is not that time.

[Bob_A]

I would never pay for this so-called "feature". I don't want to see a live shot through a TV screen. On my point and shoot digital cams I never use the LCD to format my shot. Never. Don't like it at all. My work camera is a Fuji with the EVF and I hate it.

However, I expect to see these kind of features on entry level, consumer grade cameras because that's what they like. I always laugh and chuckle watching people compose their shots on their little P&S cams holding them out at arm's length. Then they wonder why their shots are blurry.

Thumbs down on live LCD from me!

I couldn't agree more. I purchased digital P&S cameras for both of my kids and they have been taught to compose using the viewfinder, not the LCD screen. As a result they keep the camera nice and steady, and do a pretty decent job framing the shot.

IMO Olympus has to come up with DSLR gimmicks just to stay in the race. Too bad, because at one time they made my favorite SLR's.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Oh, BTW, doesn't the 20Da have a specialized live-preview function for astrophotography?

That would mean that Olympus wasn't first with this function.

He NEVER reads my posts .. :( :( :(

I'm truly hurt... :cry: :cry:


:lol:

[Moppie]

Now is not that time.


I agree with you there, and Im also glad you do see a use for the technology, which is anything but a gimmick. I did point out that the Olympus E-330 is a flawed design, but is important because it shows manufactors are interested in producing the technology.


My refernce was to your sentance
I always laugh and chuckle watching people compose their shots on their little P&S cams holding them out at arm's length. Then they wonder why their shots are blurry.

Im not sure if your having a laugh at the camera, or the people useing it.
I frequently compose and hand hold long exposures useing the LCD with the camera out in front of me, I simply lock my elbows into my rib cage and use one hand to twist the camera one way, and the other hand to twist it the other way. Iv been able to hand hold exposures of up to 1 sec doing this, and got acceptable results.
Of course if your refering to shooting fast moving objects then it is simply poor panning technique, or too slow a shutter speed, neither of which are the fault of the camera.


I also have a bit of a compact chip on my shoulder :)

[Sean-Mcr]

There were a few times with my old Canon S1 IS where the flip screen came in pretty handy, in the day though it was just too hard to see the screen much of the time.

Plus, it's one thing holding a P&S steady by your waist or above your head. But try doing that with a 20D + Grip and 24-70

[defordphoto]

Moppie: We also own a Canon SD-500 (listed proudly in my sig). Love the camera and it has its place in our arsenal. Even with that camera I never use the LCD to compose. When I buy a new dSLR the very first thing I do is shut off the LCD review. Why? Conserving battery power.

You talk about the locked elbows to the chest...Next time you try that hold the camera to your face a see exactly where the viewfinder hits. Your eye. :)

I also have a bit of a compact chip on my shoulder.

Ya think? ;) I sensed the chip and knew immediately it was not a compact flash card. ;)

And as previously mentioned the 20Da uses a live LCD preview function. Not quite as robust as the Olympus, but the 20Da is a specialty camera.

[Tom W]

He NEVER reads my posts .. :( :( :(

I'm truly hurt... :cry: :cry:


:lol:

You've posted before? I thought this was your first. :)

Whoops - Guess I missed it. :oops:

[Tom W]

I couldn't agree more. I purchased digital P&S cameras for both of my kids and they have been taught to compose using the viewfinder, not the LCD screen. As a result they keep the camera nice and steady, and do a pretty decent job framing the shot.

IMO Olympus has to come up with DSLR gimmicks just to stay in the race. Too bad, because at one time they made my favorite SLR's.

Somewhere floating around the web is my self-portrait of correct vs. incorrect stance when handling the S-400. Suffice to say that tight to the face with elbows in is the best way. That's not to say that situations don't call for drastic measures. As others have said, the swivel LCD panel on cameras like the G-series can be a great tool for getting a shot that would otherwise be very difficult. But by and far, the camera against the face is much steadier than holding the camera out at arms length.

[Moppie]

You talk about the locked elbows to the chest...Next time you try that hold the camera to your face a see exactly where the viewfinder hits. Your eye. :)


You must have longer arms than I do, if I lock my elbows to the side of my chest my hands on reach my chin :)
And of course useing the viewfinder introduces parallax error, something that really can drive me nuts.

[Timm]

I wonder what advertising standards bodies would have to say if Canon pointed out the 20Da was actually the first DSLR with live LCD oreview? ;)

Could prove costly for Olympus and embarassing for their marketing monkeys! :lol:

[Moppie]

Was the 20Da ever sold out side of Japan?
If not then it cause problems.

[defordphoto]

Was the 20Da ever sold out side of Japan?


Yup.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=393397&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

[blacksmurf]

I agree with BottomBracket and Tom W about the display: having a G6 I found it very useful: I thought I'd be lost on the 350D, but all works fine, I had no problems, even if I wear glasses.
Sure, some further information in the viewfinder would be VERY useful... for example, the ISO!

[Timm]

Was the 20Da ever sold out side of Japan?
If not then it cause problems.

Yup for the UK too...

http://www.telescopehouse.co.uk/ (http://www.telescopehouse.co.uk/page.aspx?theLang=001lngdef&pointerid=EB9D79522B8F448487078A871B0B3B98&action=lnk)

... so that's Japan, USA & Europe where Olympus weren't first! ;) :lol: