Basketball pics

[Bosman]

Is this the best I can hope for with my G6?
Can anybody tell me why there is so much noise when the ISO was set to 50?

TIA Joe

Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 01/31/06 08:26:24
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/60
Av (Aperture Value) 3.0
Light Metering Evaluative
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 50
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 28.8mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation 0
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Flash
AF Mode Continuous AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2387KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

[Papaw]

These are very simular (actually better) than some I took several weeks ago in a simular situation with my G6. After the first half I changed the ISO to 400 and got much better results. This led me to believe that the pictures were actually more under exposed than actually having heavy grain. I have started using manually set higher ISO settings on all inside shots and I have had better results. I could be wrong and hope there are more responses from the more expierienced.

[Bosman]

These are very simular (actually better) than some I took several weeks ago in a simular situation with my G6. After the first half I changed the ISO to 400 and got much better results. This led me to believe that the pictures were actually more under exposed than actually having heavy grain. I have started using manually set higher ISO settings on all inside shots and I have had better results. I could be wrong and hope there are more responses from the more expierienced.
Thanks for the post.

I should have bumped it to at least 100, also did you shoot in AV or TV?
I'm wondering if I shot in TV at about 160 or even 100 that may have helped to "stop" the action a little better, not sure if would have been more underexposed though.

That shot was from the other end of the court with a 420ex Speedlite.
I also had some trouble with the ones in my end of the court. I kept either bumping up the flash or bumping down the flash output. That is something I still don't understand cause in AV isn't the camera suppose to "adjust" the flash output automatically? Note: i do have the flash out put set to auto but I still adjust the output.

[Bosman]

This is at my end. Also note the flash was back down to -2/3.
In the first one the flash was not bumped up but probably should have been, I'll post another at that end with the flash bumped up.


Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 01/31/06 08:47:29
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/60
Av (Aperture Value) 2.5
Light Metering Evaluative
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 50
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 15.8mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation -2/3
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Flash
AF Mode Continuous AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2501KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

[Bosman]

at the far end, this time with flash exposure bumped up. Someone please correct me if I'm misstating what I did. My understanding is even with the adjust on "auto" in the menu, I am still bumping up the flash output.

Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 01/31/06 08:57:17
Shooting Mode Aperture-Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/60
Av (Aperture Value) 2.8
Light Metering Evaluative
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 50
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 25.1mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation +2
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Flash
AF Mode Continuous AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2361KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

[Diminished29]

I'm with Papaw on this one. It is terribly hard to obtain viable results with your G6 and my A610 alike, but it can be done, they won't turn out like that of the SLR's but they'll work.

If they don't mind you using a flash, keep on using it, and definately hike up the ISO to 400 though. Sure the pictures will be a bit grainy, but nothing you can't touch up in Noise Ninja or Neat Image later on.

I'd also suggest you shooting wide open or pretty darn close with an aperture of (2.0 - 2.2), so you can get more light to the camera and raise the shutter even further. Try your best to at least get your shutter to around the 1/200 mark, and really thats not even near enough. As many of the SLR guys use a shutter of 1/400 - 1/500 for basketball, but I can assure you that you'll get a much clearer image than shooting with 1/60 like you have been. Heck, many people say thats the bare minimum for portraits, but hey definately don't quit trying. At least you got a picture to show up, some peoples turn out all black because their too scared to turn up the ISO to obtain feasible shutter speed, or shoot wide open because their not close enough to the action then because they can't "zoom" in.

Oh and about using Av mode, yes you can use it, however I've found many times when indoors it still puts your shutter way too low to use without getting bad camera shake.

So, in this case you should try shooting in RAW and maybe even underexpose some of the pictures a bit, not too much though but enough where you can fix them later, but still obtain that higher shutter speed since I assume your handholding all of these.

I know I told you about shooting wide open earlier or just one stop above it, and when you do this just try and position yourself like right at the end of the court under the basket if they'll allow you or at one of the corners that way you'll still probably be close enough to capture that nice layup and maybe a face of aggression as they're running to put it in.

I know this was a lot of rambing, but hopefully you can make sense of some of it. Please post back with new results the next time you get to try some of these methods and let us know how it went!

Cheers,
Chad

[Bryan Bedell]

From my limited experience with stuff like that, it looks like you've got it pretty dialed in, that might be about as good as you can expect. I'd try shooting at 100/200 without the flash and maybe with a monopod, it might be worth the grain for more natural lighting and less camera shake.

That's just a crumby environment to shoot in, the visual clutter and scale, combined with your lack of freedom to get close and useless light, make it tough... work on your composition, that's going to make a huge difference: crop in tighter and try lower or higher angles (get down on the floor or up in the bleachers) or find a position with a less-cluttered background... Don't forget to shoot vertical shots. Try to capture interactions between a few players rather than trying to get the whole game in one shot. Get some closeups of individual players concentrating during free throws (no flash or AF assist beam if they're on your team!). Maybe you can get behind the basket so the action's coming towards you at least half the time, and you get more faces in the shot. Also practice panning: if you're stuck with a slow shutter speed, use it to your advantage and pan with the action and shoot a billion shots and hope a couple work out. Sports are just really hard to shoot. : )

[magicmikey]

Here are three shots I took with my G6 and my 420EX flash. The first one has been post processed in Photoshop Elements 3.0 so it has been improved a little. (Mostly, I corrected the red-eye.) The other two have only been reduced in size.

As you can see, if you can get a little closer to the action, the photos will come out exposed better. Noise will be more prominent in underexposed photos so it's important to make sure you have enough light (or flash.) It does appear that the gym I was shooting is better lit so that also helped out on my shots but, mostly, it's because I was closer.

I would suggest increasing the ISO to 100 or 200 to see the results. If you can move closer to the basketball players, you'll likely be able to use ISO 100 and get good results. I used to work for my college newspaper as a photographer so I'm used to getting very close to the action. In these shots, I was standing at the end of the court about two feet out of bounds and just to the outside of the lane.

Obviously, some places won't let you stand so close. But, if you can, you'll get much better exposures and a much better shot because you'll be close to the action.

http://xs24.xs.to/pics/05153/Basketball_1.jpg (http://xs.to)

File Name IMG_0882.JPG
Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 02/16/05 19:19:59
Shooting Mode Shutter Speed Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/250
Av (Aperture Value) 3.0
Light Metering Center Weighted Avg.
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 100
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 28.8mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation 0
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Auto
AF Mode Single AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2717KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

http://xs66.xs.to/pics/06054/Basketball_3.jpg

File Name IMG_0887.JPG
Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 02/16/05 19:26:01
Shooting Mode Shutter Speed Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/250
Av (Aperture Value) 2.5
Light Metering Center Weighted Avg.
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 50
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 17.6mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation 0
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Auto
AF Mode Single AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2600KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

http://xs66.xs.to/pics/06054/Basketball_2.jpg (http://xs.to)

File Name IMG_0909.JPG
Camera Model Name Canon PowerShot G6
Shooting Date/Time 02/16/05 19:56:41
Shooting Mode Shutter Speed Priority AE
Photo Effect Off
Tv (Shutter Speed) 1/250
Av (Aperture Value) 3.0
Light Metering Center Weighted Avg.
Exposure Compensation 0
ISO Speed 50
Lens 7.2 - 28.8mm
Focal Length 28.8mm
Digital Zoom None
Image Size 3072x2304
Image Quality Superfine
Flash On
Flash Type External E-TTL
Flash Exposure Compensation 0
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain
White Balance Auto
AF Mode Continuous AF
Color Space sRGB
File Size 2902KB
Drive Mode Single-frame shooting

[Bosman]

Nice shots! Thanks for posting. I will definately bump up the ISO and give TV mode a try.

[lefturn99]

I would suggest
1. As high ISO as you can stand.
2. Av mode at 2.0.
3. Under expose up to one stop - experiment with more.
These things will give the fastest shutter speed to stop the action and minimize camera shake..
4. You may have to use manual focus if it is extremely dark.
5. Shoot in RAW. This will slow the high speed bursts, but you will be able to adjust out the under exposure less destructively than using curves / levels.

Actually, the shots you have are not that bad. Pretty good, in fact. You don't indicate if it is ok for us to manipulate your pix but they could be brightened up quite a bit.

[Bosman]

I would suggest
1. As high ISO as you can stand.
2. Av mode at 2.0.
3. Under expose up to one stop - experiment with more.
These things will give the fastest shutter speed to stop the action and minimize camera shake..
4. You may have to use manual focus if it is extremely dark.
5. Shoot in RAW. This will slow the high speed bursts, but you will be able to adjust out the under exposure less destructively than using curves / levels.

Actually, the shots you have are not that bad. Pretty good, in fact. You don't indicate if it is ok for us to manipulate your pix but they could be brightened up quite a bit.
Thank you!

I realize they are a little dark, but here is something that has puzzled me. All my pics look really "bright" or should I say properly exposed to me on my iMac and powerbook. On my CRT at work they seem darker. Now please everyone this nothing to do with starting any kind of mac/pc war. It is just an observation, not sure if it is the CRT vs the LCD.
I have never shoot in RAW and at this point have no experience in PhotoShop. Maybe I'm naive but I really put more expectations on the camera, not sure if that is the way to approach it.

[magicmikey]

Joe,

Monitors used with a Mac (and I'm a Mac user) normally are brighter. They use a different gamma than PCs do.

As to lefturn99's suggested settings, that's going a totally different direction than trying to shoot with flash. Personally, I was much happier with the images I got shooting with flash than trying to shoot with ambient light.

You'll have to experiment to see what works for you. (In the gym I was shooting in, I used the coaches Digital Rebel without a flash. I had to push the ISO to 1600 to get enough light. I couldn't get enough light with the G6 at ISO 400 to get a good exposure.)

[lefturn99]

Joe, you never did say if it is ok to edit your pictures. I am going to guess that since you are asking for help, you won't mind. Here is 20 seconds in Photoshop. This can be done in Photoshop Elements, as well as many other programs. Your list of accessories leads me to believe you are somewhat serious about your photography. If that is so, you will want some kind of software to enhance your pictures.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/46/526046/1/55610489.basketball.jpg

One reason for choosing Photoshop Elements 4 is that RAW conversion is very easy. I mean VERY easy. Once I learned the joys of RAW, I rarely shoot JPEG. One rarely mentioned fact. Many people think RAW is for pros. Actually, it may help the rest of us more. While we strive to "get it right the first time", the fact is that many of our shots are not perfect. RAW will make a missed shot into a "keeper" more times than not.

At my workplace, the monitors are set to an anti-glare setting for word processing and spread sheet use. This makes pictures quite a bit darker.

The flash is another option, but you are pretty close on Program. A few tweaks and you can get some pretty nice shots.

If you are uncomfortable with Av, try "Program Shift". In Program mode and with Program Shift on, half press until you get a lock. On the LCD and the top screen, you will see a matched pair of shutter and aperture values. Spin the front dial and it will give you other matched sets of values that are exposed properly for that scene. Spin it until you get the fastest shutter speed. Take the pic.

[Bosman]

Joe, you never did say if it is ok to edit your pictures. I am going to guess that since you are asking for help, you won't mind. Here is 20 seconds in Photoshop. This can be done in Photoshop Elements, as well as many other programs. Your list of accessories leads me to believe you are somewhat serious about your photography. If that is so, you will want some kind of software to enhance your pictures.

http://i.pbase.com/o4/46/526046/1/55610489.basketball.jpg

One reason for choosing Photoshop Elements 4 is that RAW conversion is very easy. I mean VERY easy. Once I learned the joys of RAW, I rarely shoot JPEG. One rarely mentioned fact. Many people think RAW is for pros. Actually, it may help the rest of us more. While we strive to "get it right the first time", the fact is that many of our shots are not perfect. RAW will make a missed shot into a "keeper" more times than not.

At my workplace, the monitors are set to an anti-glare setting for word processing and spread sheet use. This makes pictures quite a bit darker.

The flash is another option, but you are pretty close on Program. A few tweaks and you can get some pretty nice shots.

If you are uncomfortable with Av, try "Program Shift". In Program mode and with Program Shift on, half press until you get a lock. On the LCD and the top screen, you will see a matched pair of shutter and aperture values. Spin the front dial and it will give you other matched sets of values that are exposed properly for that scene. Spin it until you get the fastest shutter speed. Take the pic.

Thanks alot for all the advice, looks like I should look into shooting in RAW.

When shooting in RAW I was under the assumption I had to do post processing, something I didn't want to have to do on every shot. Is that true?


I use AV about 95% of the time. Was going to try TV in these situations, but maybe I should give Program I try, I have never used that before.

[lefturn99]

Yes, there is some PP with RAW, but it doesn't have to take much time per picture.

If all your pictures are perfect "in camera", RAW and PP are a waste of time. Mine aren't. I consider RAW conversion and Photoshop as my "safety net".

I looked at your EXIF data wrong. I thought you were shooting Auto. If you are using Av, there is no advantage in Program Shift except to just look at the pairings as you spin the wheel.

[Bosman]

Yes, there is some PP with RAW, but it doesn't have to take much time per picture.

If all your pictures are perfect "in camera", RAW and PP are a waste of time. Mine aren't. I consider RAW conversion and Photoshop as my "safety net".

I looked at your EXIF data wrong. I thought you were shooting Auto. If you are using Av, there is no advantage in Program Shift except to just look at the pairings as you spin the wheel.

So I guess for me, if the shots are "difficult" I should shoot in RAW. But when I'm taking alot of like family pics, I don't want to do post processing on all of those. But then again maybe if I start to use it I won't want to do without it. Can I use the Canon software for now to process RAW.

[mknabster]

Those are some pretty good shots. Here are 2 i took w/ my G6 and the 430 EX: