For those who need wide...

[rdenney]

In the medium-format world, I collect and use ex-Soviet cameras. One of the lenses produced in the Ukraine for them is a 30mm full-frame fisheye, which is wide indeed on 6x6 format. Using that lens made me realize that a full-frame fisheye is a general-purpose wide-angle instead of the specialty lens most people think.

We tend to think that recticlinear wide angles are more natural than lenses with fisheye projection, but I've learned that each seems distorted in the ultra-short focal lengths, depending on the subject. I have taken dozens of fisheye images in medium format for which the barrel distortion is completely invisible, solely by keeping the horizon or other important straight lines going through the middle of the image (so they'll stay straight). And I find that objects in the corner of a rectilinear extreme wide-angle lens are highly distorted and unnatural. They are much more natural looking on a full-frame fisheye.

And a full-frame fisheye, when cropped by the 10D's small sensor, isn't nearly as wild as it is in full frame. It's almost tame, in fact.

Thus, I bought a Russian-made Zenitar 16mm/2.8 full-frame fisheye last week, in Canon EOS mount. (You can also get them with an M42 mount and a Canon EOS adaptor, but I elected to get one with a "native" EF mount.)

The cost? $150 brand new.

It has no electronics, so you are on your own for focusing. And it doesn't have an automatic diaphragm, so you have to set the aperture. But the 10D will still provide automatic exposure control in Av mode. You focus at f/2.8, stop down to desired aperture, and shoot. If you focuse at about two or three meters and stop it down to f/11 or so, you'll get everything within the depth of field from about a meter to infinity (yes, it has depth-of-field markings on it, though I haven't checked them).

Did I mention it was only $150?

And it is multicoated and seems to control flare quite well for a fisheye. I might make a shade for it that takes into account the smaller sensor. On a full-frame camera, it has a 180-degree diagonal field of view, so shading ain't easy.

On the 10D, it has about the same field of view as a 20mm rectilinear wide angle on a full-frame camera (or a 14 on a 10D), so it's a cheap way to get really wide on the 10D.

You can even correct the barrel distortion with software if you want.

I'll post some images next week, but so far image quality seems to be outstanding starting at about 5.6.

It's keeping me from going into no-wide shock while I wait (and wait, and wait) for my 14mm Sigma to get back from Sigma.

Rick "just wanting to share the joy" Denney

[Griffin]

Now that is what I would call it a real "budget" lens! :D

3 concerns: how is the build quality? D30 is not famous for its MF ability, how does this lens work with 10D? I have seen photographs taken with fisheyes and D30 2 years ago, sensor cropping does not make fisheyes worthwhile. How does this go with 10D?

BTW, it would be grateful if you could post some samples you have taken? TIA.


Griffin.

[CavScout]

I use the Zenitar 16mm/2.8 full-frame fisheye too, and I find it as a good alternative for a wide angle lense until I can afford the Sigma 15-30mm, the build is solid and it looks very professional and has a built-in Sun blend. Plus at 2,8 it's pretty fast.For me it was a good bargain until I get my 15-30mm. I've used it with my D30 but soon I'll be using it with my D60.

[WSpruance]

Maybe this is a stupid question but why can't you take 2 or 3 images with your existing normal lens on the 10D and stitch them together for a wide angle shot? It may not work under all circumstances but it may be worth thinking about. This could also be very cost effective.

[GenDEM]

WSpruance wrote:
Maybe this is a stupid question but why can't you take 2 or 3 images with your existing normal lens on the 10D and stitch them together for a wide angle shot? It may not work under all circumstances but it may be worth thinking about. This could also be very cost effective.

Panorama stitching only works in one axis, for example, left to right, whereas a wide angle lens works in all axis simultaneously. Additionally, with panoramic shots, you have to be really careful with settings and filters and so on or you'll get a seam.

...Mike, who's made many a stiched photo.

[rdenney]

WSpruance wrote:
Maybe this is a stupid question but why can't you take 2 or 3 images with your existing normal lens on the 10D and stitch them together for a wide angle shot? It may not work under all circumstances but it may be worth thinking about. This could also be very cost effective.

Well, part of the reason is that often what I'm taking a picture of is moving and refuses to stop while I take multiple images. I have had trouble stitching images together before, just because of things like trees swaying in the breeze or clouds moving.

Besides, it's much easier to compose if you can see the whole image in the finder.

Rick "who will spend $150 to make life far easier" Denney

[rdenney]

Griffin wrote:
Now that is what I would call it a real "budget" lens! :D

3 concerns: how is the build quality? D30 is not famous for its MF ability, how does this lens work with 10D? I have seen photographs taken with fisheyes and D30 2 years ago, sensor cropping does not make fisheyes worthwhile. How does this go with 10D?

BTW, it would be grateful if you could post some samples you have taken? TIA.


Griffin.

The build quality is fine. It is all metal, with smooth focusing and crisp aperture detents. It compares favorably with an FD lens, and is really nothing like modern plastic or metal-skinned autofocus lenses. The multicoating is first-rate. The EF mount was obviously added after the fact, by replacing the M42 mount with a separately manufactured EF mount. The only build issue I had was that the front lens cell wasn't screwed in tightly enough, and the shade wasn't oriented properly when the lens was mounted. I just grabbed it and tightened with my hand until it was aligned with no ill effects. This sort of thing isn't uncommon with the stuff from that part of the world.

The lens is made in the KMZ factory in Krasnogorsk, which has a good reputation--better than the Arsenal factory in Kiev, for example, and I use plenty of Arsenal lenses with great success.

The smaller sensor does crop off the wildest part of the fisheye effect, and if you want the wild fisheye effect in all its glory you'll be disappointed. I pride myself on using the fisheye in ways that hide the barrel distortion or that use it transparently rather than as a special effect, and the cropping is a help rather than a hindrance in that strategy.

I think of it as an alternative for a very wide-angle lens for the 10D, that uses a different projection method. I don't think of it as a special-effect lens. For many organic subjects, the fisheye projection is softer and more natural. For architecture, though, the effect is hard to hide and that's where the more angular rectilinear projection is better.

My Sigma 14mm lens just came to me from Sigma today, so I'll make some comparison shots this weekend and post them at some point. They should have approximately similar fields of view.

Rick "pleased that Sigma took much less time than they promised" Denney

[john_houghton]

gendem wrote:
Panorama stitching only works in one axis, for example, left to right, whereas a wide angle lens works in all axis simultaneously.
Not true. You can stitch vertically and horizontally using a stitcher that has a multi-row capability. Panorama Tools can do this - in fact it has no concept of rows and columns and will stitch together sets of images taken with the camera pointing in any direction you like. The only requirement is that the camera is rotated about a fixed point (the nodal point of the lens). Obviously, one wide angle image is generally preferable, but you can get a lot more pixels using stitched images.

John

[Griffin]

rdenney wrote:
Thus, I bought a Russian-made Zenitar 16mm/2.8 full-frame fisheye last week, in Canon EOS mount. (You can also get them with an M42 mount and a Canon EOS adaptor, but I elected to get one with a "native" EF mount.)

The cost? $150 brand new.


And, where did you get yours? I find several online but none of them get this cheap.


Griffin.

[rdenney]

Griffin wrote:
rdenney wrote:
Thus, I bought a Russian-made Zenitar 16mm/2.8 full-frame fisheye last week, in Canon EOS mount. (You can also get them with an M42 mount and a Canon EOS adaptor, but I elected to get one with a "native" EF mount.)

The cost? $150 brand new.


And, where did you get yours? I find several online but none of them get this cheap.


Griffin.


Kiev Camera sells them on ebay for $150, and several others sell them for even less, though in M42 with an N42/EF adaptor.

Rick "who has some examples, but not time to upload them" Denney

[phuocle]

Thanks for the tip Rick! Just bought mine for $140 shipped. I should get it in a week.

[Griffin]

I know Kiev camera sells it for USD150.00 on eBay, but the current bidding price is way beyond this...I really cannot find one for USD140.00! :(

BTW, I would like to check local shop first here in Hong Kong, may be I could find myself a surprise! Fingers crossed.


Griffin.

[Griffin]

I finally got one from local. Interesting lens. For debarrelizing, I am not sure between PanoTools and ImageFactory's Debarrelizer. I still cannot figure out how to use them using PanoTools after all the tutorials I could find, arragh!

[Webster]

Griffin wrote:
I still cannot figure out how to use them using PanoTools after all the tutorials I could find, arragh!

You found Panotools tutorials?!?!? Where? I've never found any!

[Griffin]

webster wrote:
You found Panotools tutorials?!?!? Where? I've never found any!

Here are some, as far as debarrelization is concerned. I am just too dumb to be helped:

http://www.acapixus.dk/photography/panotools.htm
http://photonotes.org/articles/zenitar-panoramas/
http://www.philohome.com/panotutorial/tutlinks.htm
http://www.philohome.com/barrelpers/barrelpers.htm

Gotta love Google, yeah? ;)

BTW, there are at least a couple of threads over Fred Miranda's forum, check it out.

Hope it helps you out.


Griffin.

[Erin]

Good links Griffin, thanks!

[slejhamer]

Griffin wrote:
webster wrote:
You found Panotools tutorials?!?!? Where? I've never found any!

Here are some, as far as debarrelization is concerned. I am just too dumb to be helped:



A couple more:

Very basic debarrelization technique: http://www.dpreview.com/learn/Image_Techniques/Barrel_Distortion_Correction_01.htm

The Fred Miranda tutorial:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/distortion/

Cheers,

[Webster]

Maybe I've missed something, but these all seem to be tutorials on PTGui rather than on Panotools itself.

[Griffin]

webster wrote:
Maybe I've missed something, but these all seem to be tutorials on PTGui rather than on Panotools itself.

No, you have not missed anything. Some discuss on using Panotools PS Plug-in. And for PTGui: the trick is -- you could "eval" it, once you get the parameters right, save them in the script for PanoTools without using the front end! :D

Good luck!


Griffin.

[Griffin]

Thank you, Mitch for pointing them out.

There seems to be two different ways to do it: using the methods described in Fred and DPReview automatically "crop" out the borders. OTOH, the one provided by "Rico" (http://www.fredmiranda.com/A9_rico/article.htm) seems to "compress" the original and let you crop the "useable" area yourself. I will try those you mentioned tonite.


Griffin.

[Griffin]

Here is a couple of samples using ImageFactory Debarrelizer, which I hope I don't have to buy it. :D USD39.99 is still a tad steep for me.

But man, this lens is good!

http://www.pbase.com/image/19698750.jpg
http://www2.pbase.com/image/19698752.jpg

The photographs are not spectcular since the lens is still better than this photographer. :D


Griffin.

[slejhamer]

Griff - you are welcome. Those fixes look very good, esp. the cityscape.

For those who don't use PTGui, this tutorial offers an easy trial-and-error method for coming up with your PanoTools lens parameters, and also gives a method for fixing chromatic aberration in WA lens shots:
http://www.caldwellphotographic.com/TutorialsDistortionAndColorFringing.html

[Griffin]

Thanks for the link.

Since I am rather dumb in using PanoTools, I write to ask over Fred Miranda's forum. Luckily, I got an answer (actually more than 1)!

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/40475/3

Hope it helps you also.


Griffin.

[Andy_T]

Rick,

all of us are looking forward to your sample shots - hopefully you'll find the time to upload them!

Kindest regards,
Andy

[dleewo]

Griffin wrote:
I know Kiev camera sells it for USD150.00 on eBay, but the current bidding price is way beyond this...I really cannot find one for USD140.00! :(

BTW, I would like to check local shop first here in Hong Kong, may be I could find myself a surprise! Fingers crossed.


Griffin.

I just got one from KievCamera on Ebay for $137 and another one sold today for $127, but you're right...I had checked the completed ones over the last few weeks and some went for over $150.