Rules for Night Photography with Motion & No Flash ?

[crsouser]

Hi,
I have been playing a while trying to find the right settings to capture a night scene. I am wondering if I just don't have the lenses to do it properly or if there is a rule similar to perhaps 'sunny 16' that would be able to help me.

The scene is basically a night landscape lit by street lights as well as several 'bar flurocents' of varying colors as well as standard white glowing signs, cars, etc. If there is absolutely no motion I can capture decently, but what I am really wanting to capture is the people, the cars, and most of all crisp images of the objects in motion.

The photo below was originally shot as RAW, and has only been white balance corrected and yes the signs are over exposed.
Shot in Manual Exposure: 1/15 Tv,33mm/f3.2/1600 Apeture using Tamron 20-40mm. No Flash, hand held.

http://www.souser.net/crsouser/photos/forums/CRS_0058_sml.jpg

There is also usually a police car with its lights on, a fight or two, and under dressed bar goers slipping on ice despite it being -5 degrees. I can't really get much closer without the bar bouncers giving me crap either most of the time. Eventually I would like to be able to take crisp photos of where the guy in the orange and yellow stripped shirt is. I have lenses that go to 200-400 at f/5.6 but so far they turn out blurry if there is motion in them.

Most references to night photography I find refer to taking stills and long exposures. Something that wouldn't work for this obviously. I would appreciate any help or links to point me in the right direction.

Christopher

[brivett]

This is the only time I would use a tripod (if practicable)

Shoot 1 shot exposed for the general view, and another to expose for each of the illuminations.... Back home in photoshop, select, feather, cut and paste of the signs on to the scene shot...

But that is just to make a nice scene...

For cropped shot I would hit 3200 ISO then use Noise Ninja before photoshop.

Baz

[Dchemist]

One thing you might try if you are after a "night" effect -- as opposed to a photo of a person only there when its totaly dark -- is to take your photos at dusk (or dawn for matter - if you have either this time of year) when you have enough daylight available to balance the street scene and get a reasonable image. You can get proper exposure on the lights (so it will look like its dark) but enough detail also in the shadows. As brivett suggests a tripod is a good bet in these circumstances. Good luck,
Dennis

[crsouser]

Thanks,
Yeah I know a tripod would help but I get stares and people walking up to me and sometimes confronting me simply to confront someone. Then and it removes the natural feel from the scene. The scene in all of its daily variations generally only happens for about a 15-30 minutes window in the middle of the night (2:45-3am). The bar getting out and the bouncers basically giving everyone only a few minutes to disperse or starts man handling them. I guess I am after more of a documentary style photo than anything.

This particular place is famous for its 'end of night' evacuations and is the only place in town they regularily have cops , close down streets, etc for its getting out. It regularily has fights in the parking lot and occassionally you get the EMTs. Tame for larger cities.. but for up here it is a good place to find regular action going on. So I am using it as my regular 'practice spot' so I can use it as sort of a baseline for my night / city life / documentary style photography and how to set my camera.

Christopher

[cdifoto]

Thanks,
Yeah I know a tripod would help but I get stares and people walking up to me and sometimes confronting me simply to confront someone. Then and it removes the natural feel from the scene. The scene in all of its daily variations generally only happens for about a 15-30 minutes window in the middle of the night (2:45-3am). The bar getting out and the bouncers basically giving everyone only a few minutes to disperse or starts man handling them. I guess I am after more of a documentary style photo than anything.

This particular place is famous for its 'end of night' evacuations and is the only place in town they regularily have cops , close down streets, etc for its getting out. It regularily has fights in the parking lot and occassionally you get the EMTs. Tame for larger cities.. but for up here it is a good place to find regular action going on. So I am using it as my regular 'practice spot' so I can use it as sort of a baseline for my night / city life / documentary style photography and how to set my camera.

Christopher

If you really want the shot and best results, use a tripod. If you're being confronted, perhaps you just shouldn't be shooting the scene. ;)

[Jackal]

Set the tripod up on the passenger side seat of your car somehow with the camera looking out the window. Takes your shots and if you see any idiots coming at you to confront you because that's what their animal-like instincts tell them to do then hit the gas.

I have no idea if this is a good idea or not. I can't think right now because I'm waiting for my 50mm 1.4 to come to me and I can't wait. D:

[redbutt]

You're kinda screwed as far as freezing motion goes if you really want to shoot this at night. I think you would probably still get motion blur at ISO 3200 from where you are shooting. You're gonna have to get to where you can shoot a shutter of at least 1/60 to prevent the motion blur. And if you plan on shooting from a distance, you really will need a tripod. Just my opnion.

[crsouser]

Again.. all good tips.. may try with a tripod later tonight.. we will see as I agree pulling non-blurry photos at that shutterspeed I difficult when doing handheld. Without a lot of motion though I can consistantly shoot 1/25 & 1/30 without any. I got my f/1.8 50mm came in today so I may try that tonight too.. and see if I can get maybe a little closer.

The confrontation aspect is why I do shoot from where I do. I have many nights witnessed people just get in fights over a strange look.. and women all googly eyes over a guy and about to go home with him to getting into a massive fight in the matter of only seconds in between the two states. Basically I keep my car close and most of my gear inside of it so I don't have to pick up a lot if I have to get on the go. Though I admit last night I had a someone come up to me and go "Hey you are a photographer.. here is my card.. give me a call if you would like some work." I am purely amatuer / learning.. but is it typically that easy to find work in the photography business?

Still looking for that magic trick or formula for night shooting (without throwing expensive glass at it)...

Christopher

[nevilleb]

Use a tripod. Determine which shadows you want detail in. Meter off the darkest shadow where you want detail, dial in exposure compensation, and fire away.

nevilleb

[nevilleb]

And, oh yes, shoot RAW. Gives you the greatest flexiblity during post processing.

nevilleb

[blackshadow]

I think a tripod and faster lens would help - is there any where you can hire or borrow an f1.4 from? I love both of mine Canon 50mm and Sigma 30mm great for low light stuff.

[DocFrankenstein]

Personally, I'd have a hard time understanding why you want to take a picture of me walking out the bar... and would probably try and stop you from doing that.

But nevertheless... do you want it to look like night or just candid shots? You have to shoot differently for different looks.

[crsouser]

Personally, I'd have a hard time understanding why you want to take a picture of me walking out the bar... and would probably try and stop you from doing that.

As I think I stated before.. this place is my practice place as it regularily has motion, action, and 'different' scenes to photograph. I really don't care about the people coming out of the bar unless a fight starts or the bouncers start kicking the crap out of someone (last year this bar's bouncers killed a patron).

As far as the other post, yes I am trying to find faster glass...I don't know of anyplace locally though that rents them though. I have a 1.8 50mm and am looking at picking up a 2.0 100mm.

So ignoring the whole shooting the whole bar patrons practice..
What about shooting a night sporting event.. like a XC ski Event where the trail is not lit.. most are wearing dark colors.. and most are also wearing headlamps?

Oh yes.. I only shoot RAW.

Christopher

[cdifoto]

Why don't you find a better place to practice? Being hassled by a bigger-than-me bouncer would be enough reason for me to find a more suitable locale.


As far as shooting at night, basic photography principles still apply. It doesn't matter what you're shooting. You need minimum shutter speeds to freeze motion and to get the shutter speeds necessary you need to let light into the lens with a high ISO setting to make the *film* more sensitive to light and you need to open up the aperture to get more light to that *film*. A tripod will help you keep the camera steady to eliminate/reduce camera shake if freezing motion is not your goal and can get away with lower ISOs, wider apertures and as a result, slower shutter speeds.


PS: Sporting events don't usually happen in the middle of the night, in pitch black. There are stadium lights involved. Same principles of photography apply.

[DocFrankenstein]

Crsouser - don't get me wrong. I understand why you want to take pictures of the place as a photographer. But there's a good chance that you're going to get your ass kicked.

Also - most of the documetary shots are really cool because they are done from up close. With 50mm being the longest useful focal length on full frame. 35mm is used for "normal" perspective. I usually use 28mm as a "slightly wide" on full frame.With 28mm you get close to the subject and can actually capture the atmosphere (the surrounding objects).

If you get that 100/2, you pictures will look like surveillance photos.

If I were shooting there, I'd get the widest fastest prime I can. Something like 17mm tokina... or maybe 20mm f/1.8 sigma:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=217794&is=USA&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

Then find your way to stick your camera in someone's face.

If your pictures aren't good enough, you aren't close enough. ;)

Hatchway (sp? ) always shoots from up close. He uses two wide angles... I think 35 and 24. Or maybe one of those primes and a zoom. I never had one of those lenses so I can't really tell what they are from the videos.

But he's always really close to the action. You see a family crying over 3 men they lost and he's there 3 feet away from them taking pictures. Always no further than 2 meters from the subject.

Here's a mediocre example of 28mm on full frame:
http://andrew4137.fotopic.net/p16863499.html
http://andrew4137.fotopic.net/p16863502.html

When I used 50/1.8 on the rebel, it was immediately much less intimate:
http://andrew4137.fotopic.net/p16863503.html

I'd find a way to shoot from up close or I'd find another subject.

[crsouser]

I'd find a way to shoot from up close or I'd find another subject.

All excellent points.. and thus what I think what I am going to try to do. Didn't think about the point of the survellience photo aspect.. but yeah.. you are right about that.

I am *REALLY* new to the SLR world not having an SLR since 1993 when I broke my AE-1 and having my DSLR for less than a month (but using Nikon Coolpix 990/4500's for the last several) So practice is something I definetly need. I guess I chose this subject as it was easy, convienant, and I could stay relatively warm doing it.

Finding night subjects in Alaska with motion is hard as not 'a lot' goes on at night, it is cold, and people also tend to not be out as much. During the summer we do not have 'night' and so I have to use what is available to me I guess and also try to keep myself entertained in these winter months.

Christopher

[DocFrankenstein]

So shoot the bar scene in the summer then. You'll have all the light you need... or almost all.

And you can make it look like night by underexposing.

[SR071]

Can I suggest you try shooting *inside* the bar then, approach management during the afternoon when nobody is there, sit down and have a chat and explain what you're trying to do. Let the manager know that if you get any good shots of the band/patrons he can stick them on a wall or something - most pubs/clubs have show off walls for this purpose.

People are less likely to get in yoru face if you're in theirs in a friendly way - and it's a great way to pick up chicks...they just looooovvveeeee it when a photog sticks their glass in front of them. To get a lot of really wild shots, say you're from FHM, People, or even Time - and watch everyone act up for the camera. I did that kind of thing for 6 months while studying, the photos were easy and you got lots and lots of attention. Cost a fortune in film though!!! But since you're all digital, just snap away - you'll soon figure out what settings are right for each shot - then break the rules and get more creative!

Of course, if you're not an outgoing personality, then doing this kind of work may mean doctors have to remove camera bits from your body - so bear that in mind....no - take it as a warning.

Cheers,