Shallow DOF with S2IS

[Stefan A]

Is it possible to get that blurry background/sharp foreground look with the S2IS? I have tried the largest aperture and I have tried zooming, but the background is still too clear. I am just talking about portraits.

Stefan

[pushtoexit]

Sounds like the only thing left to adjust is the distance between your portrait subject and the background. Widest aperature, longest zoom, distance to backdrop.

[cdifoto]

I don't want to rain on your parade but subject isolation and the inability to obtain/control it is one of the drawbacks to a P&S and why some (a lot?) shooters go with dSLRs and fast lenses.

[Stefan A]

You're not raining on my parade. You're giving me amunition for an SLR :).

Stefan

[cdifoto]

You're not raining on my parade. You're giving me amunition for an SLR :).

Stefan

I'll tell you the cheapest way to get what you want brand new is with an XT and the 50mm f/1.8 Mark II lens. The setup can be had for about $870 plus shipping at B&H.

Alternatively you could go for a used XT or used original Rebel for a lot less. The lens I mentioned isn't top grade built but the optics are pretty good and it's cheap enough ($80).

[nwyman]

I'll tell you the cheapest way to get what you want brand new is with an XT and the 50mm f/1.8 Mark II lens. The setup can be had for about $870 plus shipping at B&H.

Alternatively you could go for a used XT or used original Rebel for a lot less. The lens I mentioned isn't top grade built but the optics are pretty good and it's cheap enough ($80).

But be warned - I did this two weeks ago and am having a difficult time adjusting to the XT. But it might just be me, and general lack of experience. The cold weather isn't helping much either.

If anything, the XT is giving me a new appreciation of the S2. And I didn't get the 50mm f 1.8, but the stock kit lens.

Nancy

[cdifoto]

But be warned - I did this two weeks ago and am having a difficult time adjusting to the XT. But it might just be me, and general lack of experience. The cold weather isn't helping much either.

If anything, the XT is giving me a new appreciation of the S2. And I didn't get the 50mm f 1.8, but the stock kit lens.

Nancy

Well any dSLR is a steep learning curve...but stick with it...you'll love it when you get the hang of it!

[nwyman]

I keep looking at all those wonderfully sharp shots on the Nature and Travel Forums that are taken with the XT and marvel.
Again, with warmer weather, I'll have more of a chance to sit outside somewhere and play.

Nancy

[cdifoto]

I keep looking at all those wonderfully sharp shots on the Nature and Travel Forums that are taken with the XT and marvel.
Again, with warmer weather, I'll have more of a chance to sit outside somewhere and play.

Nancy

Part of that sharpness is due to having a nice lens and part of it is post-processing. Pretty much all photos from Canon dSLRs need post-processing to get the most out of 'em. I'm still learning how to do that.

[Stefan A]

But be warned - I did this two weeks ago and am having a difficult time adjusting to the XT.

Can you tell me what it is about the slr you find most challenging?

Stefan

[nwyman]

Can you tell me what it is about the slr you find most challenging?

Stefan

I don't think there's enough room on the forum! <g>
Really - I don't have any kind of photography background, other than two very basic classes on digital cameras that dealt with very basic concepts. And I've read several books, most of which confuse me more than when I started them.

There are several functions (if that's the right term) on the XT that are not on the S2 - like Servo. I'm still not sure what that is, but it seems to have something to do with motion shots.
And then there are the parameters.
And the custom settings with the exposure locked to focus, if I understand that correctly.

I don't understand when I am supposed to use autofocus as opposed to manual - and I'm scared to death I'll touch something I'm not supposed to when in auto mode and break something.

Part of the trouble, I think, is that I am starting off trying to do really difficult things, like bird shots - and small, flighty birds at that. I should just sit in the backyard with a tripod and practise. But it's gotten too cold to do much of that right now.

The switches and buttons are in different places on the Xt than on the S2 - and I keep trying to use the S2 when I'm holding the XT.

I also keep forgetting what all the icons mean on the LCD screen when I most need to use them, and I find the LCD screen harder to read.
Might be that I'll have to go cold turkey on the S2 until I get things fixed in my mind.
I'm also trying to learn Photoshop, and Elements 4.0, and that's a lot for my ancient brain to absorb at the same time.

[cdifoto]

I don't think there's enough room on the forum! <g>
Really - I don't have any kind of photography background, other than two very basic classes on digital cameras that dealt with very basic concepts. And I've read several books, most of which confuse me more than when I started them.

There are several functions (if that's the right term) on the XT that are not on the S2 - like Servo. I'm still not sure what that is, but it seems to have something to do with motion shots.
And then there are the parameters.
And the custom settings with the exposure locked to focus, if I understand that correctly.

I don't understand when I am supposed to use autofocus as opposed to manual - and I'm scared to death I'll touch something I'm not supposed to when in auto mode and break something.

Part of the trouble, I think, is that I am starting off trying to do really difficult things, like bird shots - and small, flighty birds at that. I should just sit in the backyard with a tripod and practise. But it's gotten too cold to do much of that right now.

The switches and buttons are in different places on the Xt than on the S2 - and I keep trying to use the S2 when I'm holding the XT.

I also keep forgetting what all the icons mean on the LCD screen when I most need to use them, and I find the LCD screen harder to read.
Might be that I'll have to go cold turkey on the S2 until I get things fixed in my mind.
I'm also trying to learn Photoshop, and Elements 4.0, and that's a lot for my ancient brain to absorb at the same time.

A good bit of that stuff is addressed in the manual. It's worth reading. There's a lot more to it than "how to install the batteries".

[nwyman]

A good bit of that stuff is addressed in the manual. It's worth reading. There's a lot more to it than "how to install the batteries".

I have read the manual. And am currently reading a Magic Lantern Guide to the Rebel XT. I just don't understand a lot of what I'm reading, nor can I think fast enough to apply it to certain situations.
It will come with time.

Nancy

[cdifoto]

I have read the manual. And am currently reading a Magic Lantern Guide to the Rebel XT. I just don't understand a lot of what I'm reading, nor can I think fast enough to apply it to certain situations.
It will come with time.

Nancy

Yeah it does take some time. I learned the technical side of it kinda quick but the artistic aspect still alludes me. Some people are the opposite. And then there are those other jerks that get it all immediately. lol.


PS: Noticed you're from the Eastern Shore. I had a gf down there several years ago. Last I heard she was going to Salisbury University.

[nwyman]

And then there are those other jerks that get it all immediately. lol.


PS: Noticed you're from the Eastern Shore. I had a gf down there several years ago. Last I heard she was going to Salisbury University.

Well, it's a relief to know I'm not that kind of a jerk, anyway! <g>
Salisbury U. has gotten very popular in recent years. I'm about two hours north of there.

Nancy

[cdifoto]

Well, it's a relief to know I'm not that kind of a jerk, anyway! <g>
Salisbury U. has gotten very popular in recent years. I'm about two hours north of there.

Nancy

Hmmm... 2 hours north as in Centreville area? I know it's not due north but some people consider it that since 50 is the only really good way to go back up through MD.

[nwyman]

Hmmm... 2 hours north as in Centreville area? I know it's not due north but some people consider it that since 50 is the only really good way to go back up through MD.

Chestertown, actually.

[cdifoto]

Chestertown, actually.

Ah ok. My ex actually lived in Queen Anne. We'd occasionally go to Chestertown to try to find something to do. We spent more time on Kent Island or down in Easton though.

[nwyman]

[quote=cdi-ink.com]Ah ok. My ex actually lived in Queen Anne. We'd occasionally go to Chestertown to try to find something to do.

Did you actually find anything to do? I've been looking fruitlessly for thirty five years now. <g>

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I couldn't resist.

Nancy

[cdifoto]

[quote=cdi-ink.com]Ah ok. My ex actually lived in Queen Anne. We'd occasionally go to Chestertown to try to find something to do.

Did you actually find anything to do? I've been looking fruitlessly for thirty five years now. <g>

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I couldn't resist.

Nancy

lol yeah we found something to do but it had nothing to do with location. ;) :D

[dahak]

Well...you can obtain some shallow dof with the s2...sort off...

[dandan]

shallow DOF is possable, just very hard, and you have to have ideal conditions.... zoom all the way, f/2.8, have the subject far from the bg, and thats as much as you can do. It wont work for anything much bigger then a head shot, but you can try...

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/293/yoshsmall17gi.jpg

that was done with another p/s cam, at f3.5 200mm.

[Stefan A]

I think that is close Dahak. Can you give some details on what you did?

Dan, I like it.

Stefan

[keitaro]

you can do it, i have done it a few times while experimenting...... you need to stand away zoom in on your object and give a lower f-stop

[cdifoto]

All you have to do is keep your aperture (f number) as small as possible, have your zoom out as far as possible, and make sure your subject is really far from your background.

So yeah, it's possible with the S2 and a lot of other point & shoot cameras...but it's a dSLR with a fast lens (that allows you to have numbers even smaller than the f/2.8 your camera can) which will let you be even more creative with it...because the smaller your f number the less distance you need between the subject and the background for the same focal length.

[adas]

All you have to do is keep your aperture (f number) as small as possible, have your zoom out as far as possible, and make sure your subject is really far from your background.

And the fourth, not less important condition is having your subject as close as possible to the camera.

[cdifoto]

And the fourth, not less important condition is having your subject as close as possible to the camera.

Well...yeah... filling the frame as necessary.

[adas]

I mean you'd get more background blur in a portrait of a 2 yr old than in an adult portrait with the same filling factor. I think shooting of the cat will work best. :)

[cdifoto]

I mean you'd get more background blur in a portrait of a 2 yr old than in an adult portrait with the same filling factor. I think shooting of the cat will work best. :)

Or a toy soldier if the macro feature is any good. ;)

[dahak]

I think that is close Dahak. Can you give some details on what you did?
Stefan
Well, the same thing that the others told you, longest focal, smallest f number, some distance between the subject and the backgroud (i think it was 5-6 meters in the gnome photo), anyway, practice makes perfect :)

[Diminished29]

Hey Stefan here is a shot I took when I was bored the other day and started messing around with DOF after seeing this thread.

As a few of the others have reccomended and I'm only posting to help solify their advice because their exactly correct. Its definately about getting enough zoom and having a background that has a bit of distance between that and the subject your shooting, and of course in conjection with the lowest apertures you can obtain. For portaits 2.8-4.1 is recommended.

I find however, that most of my best DOF portaits have been taken from full tele, which in my case is 29.7mm (and as you know the S2 is much more) or one stop below in using apertures of 3.5 - 4.1. I really haven't obtained decent results with apertures much less than that and again this is because 29.7mm really isn't all that much especially when thats full tele. The reason you'll see those SLR's getting those awesome DOF is because many people use the 50mm or the 85mm lens and those are able to still get a 1.8 aperture, which really blurs the background.

So, here is my Elephant picture. Nothing special, really I just merely playing around with DOF on this shot and having some fun.

Here are the settings I used for this shot:

ISO400
1/10
F/4.1
focal length 29.7mm (full tele)

This was also handheld believe it not, I think it came out pretty sharp after a bit of unsharp mask and some neat image to rid much of the unwanted grain. Hope this helps!



http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e347/Diminished29/Experimental/elephant2_filtered.jpg

[Stefan A]

I think that is a great shot. Thanks for posting.

Stefan

[Stefan A]

I spent a few minutes outside and got this. I was zoomed almost all the way in (nearly 12X) standing only about 8-10 feet. The nearest tree in the BG is about 20 feet. Still not the greatest, but I think the background was a bit too distinct.

[Diminished29]

I think you nailed the DOF pretty well Stefan, good job! The reason your elephant doesn't stand out as much as you wanted isn't because the background is too "distinct or distracting" but rather because your subject blends in too well. If it were summer time and leaves we're on the tree I'd imagine he would've stood out much better.

The other reason it doesn't stand out is because your subject isn't as sharp as it could be and is in need of a bit of color.

I also cropped out the distracting darker tree on the left.

I then ran the little guy through Neat Image and cleaned up my added sharpening artifacts a bit. It also clean up a bit of the disturbing background noise and made for a much "smoother" bokeh

I think this is more of what you we're looking for.

Gotta say though 72mm of focal length with a 3.5 aperture is a lot nicer than my 29mm with only a 4.1. If you wouldn't mind I wouldn't mind knowing how far you can zoom in and still get a f2.8 that'd be interesting and it'd help you get a better DOF because it appears that you have a faster lens than me.

Without further ado I present BABY ELEPHANT...he's a little ham! :lol:

[Stefan A]

F/3.5 is the biggest I can get with a zoom. I can maybe get 1x zoom with the 2.8 aperture. After that it goes to 3.5. I like some of what you did to my picture. I like the crop and the sharpening. But now there is a slight pink/purple color in the gray that wasn't in the original. Also, I used manual focus and I find it awkward on the S2.

Stefan

[john a]

Is it possible to get that blurry background/sharp foreground look with the S2IS? I have tried the largest aperture and I have tried zooming, but the background is still too clear. I am just talking about portraits.

Stefan
Have you tried using the portrait mode on the mode dial? Does that provide sufficient background "bluring"?

[flyb0y]

The reason you will never acheive as shallow a DOF as an SLR is because with any p&s camera the numbers are different. f/2.8 on a p&s is equal to f/11 on an SLR system. And f/8 on a p&s is equal to f/32 on an SLR. If you have f/11 on ur p&s it is equal to f/64 on an SLR. To get a really shallow DOF you need as wide an apt as possible. f/2.8 being equivlent to f/11 really isnt that wide of an apt. If somebody with an SLR system is wanting a REALLY shallow DOF they will set their apt wide open to a true 4 or 2.8, something a p&s will never come close too. Also having a long lens helps shallow out the DOF also. So if you have an SLR with a 300mm lens and an apt of 2.8, your DOF will be REALLY shallow. Does this make sense?

[Stefan A]

Thanks guys. This is an old thread and I understand the concept now.

Stefan

[lakiluno]

AKA bumping 2 month old threads to ask the OP a question that they have probably discovered about or they have left the forum (which can happen) isn't very clever and is really bad forum etiquette.

Leo

[flyb0y]

Others can still learn from the thread who might have the same questions. I was adding something that hadnt been said yet on the subject. I dont think that is bad forum etiquette at all.

[Stefan A]

It's really not a big deal to me that the thread was revived. I have been doing these type of forums for a long time now. I realize that sometimes people look at old threads and read the original question without reading all the responses. No biggie.

Stefan

[psychedelicbeats]

quesiton here.... would it be appropriate to use a telephoto lens?

[RossW]

Welcome to the forum. Yes, "telephoto" -- that is, a long focal length -- is one of the keys to getting shallow depth of focus (along with wide apertures and placement of subject vs. background). The S2 has a single built-in zoom lens, so in this instance that means using the longer end of the zoom range.

If you mean an add-on teleconverter lens, then yes again... that would help limit DOF on the S2. But as with most point 'n' shoot cameras, the small sensor and the corresponding optics will almost always work against blurred backgrounds compared to larger-sensor DSLR cameras.

[psychedelicbeats]

by using a teleconverter lens, i figure it would allow it's maximum aparture to be used at favorable conditions. i plan on using a teleconverter lens to get "some" dof locked down on the s2 is. but im wondering if i'm headed to the right direction with its limited capabilities...

for subjects of interest, i'd like to attempt this on larger subjects (i.e. cars) as well as mid-sized subjects (i.e. full-figured person)