any helpful low light techniques??

[phishhead_23]

I've found myself with a regular photography gig for a regional website for local bands. I guess I'm considered a staff photographer. I'd like any advice you can give about getting the best results for low light photography. I'm currently using the Rebel XT and a 50mm 1.4 as my main set up. As far as I am aware, I can get the best results by manipulating the following settings:

-ISO (mine only goes up to 1600)
-F stop (can get down to 1.4 but lose image sharpness)
-shutter speed (is the magic number here at least 1/100th sec?)
-Metering (which is best for low light in a small bar?)
-white balance (is there a best option here?)

I'm gonna start learning to shoot in RAW, but for now, I'm using JPEG.

Suggestions and helpful hints are welcome. I'll post results as I get them for critique.

[lostdoggy]

Your shutter speed can go down to 1/focal length or 1/60 as long as the subject is not moving. I think you can go above iso 1600 thru Cfn. There is a member here that does event photos, but can't seem to remember his name.

[eenorton]

You'll find lots of info in this thread.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81761

[phishhead_23]

[quote=lostdoggy]I think you can go above iso 1600 thru Cfn. quote]

Can you clarify this?

[Steve Parr]

-white balance (is there a best option here?)

I've found the best option here to be the "tungsten" setting...

Steve

[stupot]

[quote=lostdoggy]I think you can go above iso 1600 thru Cfn. quote]

Can you clarify this?


you cant. he could be talking about the 20d... i know it goes up to 3200 but never used one so dont know if thats via Cfn (custom function)

[Sageg]

From what I vaguely remember, you can actually go above 1600 by using raw & adjusting exposure in the raw converter. Details escape me.

[Inspired Photography]

From what I vaguely remember, you can actually go above 1600 by using raw & adjusting exposure in the raw converter. Details escape me.

That doesn't really make sense. The only thing I think you might be describing is underexposing by a stop to increase shutter speed, and compensating when processing the RAW files. (Called forcing or something i think).

You shouldn't need to go wider than f2 even at ISO1600 for most conditions, unless the lighting is very soft. If your shutter speed starts dropping, try a monopod or tripod to help stabilise things.

Your XT is going to be fairly noisy even at ISO800, so i would suggest if it is a regular gig, buy some noiseware. I personally use Imagenomic NoiseWare (in its CS2 plugin form), but i have heard that neat image and others are good too.

If you are shooting RAW, then don't worry too much about your white balance. Incandescent or Tungsten will be close to the mark most of the time, but stage lighting can do funny things no matter what you select.

Any threads from Dwight McCann (forgive spelling) will provide a wealth of knowledge, and think there is a sticky in the techniques section.

Hope this helps.

Rob

[Curtis N]

If these shots are going to be reduced to screen size for a website, I wouldn't worry too much about the digital noise at high ISO settings. Noise Ninja or NeatImage would be a good investment, but you'll find that when you resize them down, most of the noise disappears.

As for the sharpness of the 50mm F1.4 wide-open, again, I wouldn't worry. The sharpness of a web-sized image will be mostly determined by your post-processing skills. Depth-of-field might be an issue, though.

Every low light exposure is a compromise between shutter speed, aperture and ISO. There's rarely a single right answer, but experience helps a lot and every outing will be better than the previous one.

For metering spotlit subject with dark backgrounds, try switching to partial metering and try to find something neutral to meter on.

Good luck!

[jfrancho]

A few tips.
Shoot in M mode.
1/80 will freeze slow movement, but not fast movement like drumsticks or fast strumming. I have usable pics that range from 1/40 to 1/120.
Shoot wide open with fast primes.
I use 20mm, 28mm, 50mm focal lengths. Field of view will determine what length. You may need to go longer depending on how close you are to the performer.
f/1.4 is definately ok. I shoot from f/1.4 to f/2.2 almost exclusively.
Use a single focus point.
Use burst mode.
Get a shutter speed and aperture value that works with the performer and gives you the ideal DOF. Vary the ISO to control the exposure. I shoot from ISO 200 - 3200 depending on the lighting. Learn how to make this change without looking at the buttons. When you are shooting, try to anticipate the lighting changes, and learn to adjust ISO on the fly.
Bring lots of memory cards.
Get model releases signed by the performers.
Make friends with the venue owner/manager/security/lighting guy (or girl).
Introduce yourself to the performer.
I'm sure there are some things I missed - hopefully the other real live shooters will pick up on this thread.
Good Luck!

[Sageg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sageg
From what I vaguely remember, you can actually go above 1600 by using raw & adjusting exposure in the raw converter. Details escape me.

That doesn't really make sense. The only thing I think you might be describing is underexposing by a stop to increase shutter speed, and compensating when processing the RAW files. (Called forcing or something i think).

That was it! You underexpose by -1, then increase exposure by +2. As ss & aperture remain constant, you are pushing the ISO higher.

[jfrancho]

All you'll be doing is producing more noise.

[lostdoggy]

That was it! You underexpose by -1, then increase exposure by +2. As ss & aperture remain constant, you are pushing the ISO higher.
That is a method I remember using shooting B&W film. I think the term pushing & pulling. It require changing the developing time on the film as well. In Digital shooting you can change exposure up to +/- 2.5 stops, but I wouldn't recommend it. 1stop is about the most I've tied.

As for changing the max ISO on XT you need to access the custm function and make the change there once you do that you'll get a H as the max ISO on the display.

[DwightMcCann]

Whenever possible use a monopod or tripod. Take backup batteries. Shoot until your CF cards are FULL! Do not save space on the CF cards. Use up all the CF cards you can beg, borrow or ... well, shoot a lot of images. After you feel that you have the "money" shots, experiment a little. Shoot, shoot, shoooooooooot. I cannot tell you how many times I didn't keep shooting (within the limits set by the performer) and something really neat happened but "I was done." And even more times that the last images I shot were the "killer" images ... sometimes it is the first frame, but often much nearer the end. And heed all the other advice, especially jfrancho who does exquisite work.

[earplugsrequired]

Whenever possible use a monopod or tripod. Take backup batteries. Shoot until your CF cards are FULL! Do not save space on the CF cards. Use up all the CF cards you can beg, borrow or ... well, shoot a lot of images. After you feel that you have the "money" shots, experiment a little. Shoot, shoot, shoooooooooot. I cannot tell you how many times I didn't keep shooting (within the limits set by the performer) and something really neat happened but "I was done." And even more times that the last images I shot were the "killer" images ... sometimes it is the first frame, but often much nearer the end. And heed all the other advice, especially jfrancho who does exquisite work.

I definitely echo what Dwight is saying here. Many times we have a three song limit but you would be amazed how many shots you can get off in that time limit. Even when shooting film I could shoot alot. Certainly you will get many similar shots but you will find some will be better than others for whatever reasons, ie lighting changes etc. You then have more to choose from as well.

The only part that I don't agree with the above statement from Dwight is the monopod/tripod. For most of us, there is no way that can be used in the confines in which we are shooting. I shoot rock music in all of it's multiple divisions and there is NO way I could use a tripod let alone a monopod unless I was shooting from back at the soundboard or from a balcony in a club. I love being up in the barricade. Even a monopod would be a hinderance and a safety concern for those of us in the barricade.

[DwightMcCann]

There's nothing wrong with shooting from the soundboard! :-) That's where I put my 300mm f/2.8 with a 1.4 or 2.0 TC on my full wimberley head and get lots of great shots! It is nice to shoot with your tummy against the stage but tough to capture the nuances of the whole band together. I just licensed some images to the Average White Band because of images I shot from the sound board with my 70-200mm f/2.8L. They liked the individual shots but said that the most difficult photographs to find were those of the whole band. Actually, I try to shoot everything I can think of ... I am constantly moving around the Samala Room even during "three songs!" But Earplugs is right ... I usually have everything in front of the stage and to the sides just for me so I can use the monopod and/or tripod (tripod off to the side.) Experiment!

[phishhead_23]

Thanks for all the great tips! I might be able to get away with using a tripod because I'm usually in a small club. Here are a coupIe that I took from last night (see another thread for more).

[earplugsrequired]

There's nothing wrong with shooting from the soundboard! :-) That's where I put my 300mm f/2.8 with a 1.4 or 2.0 TC on my full wimberley head and get lots of great shots! It is nice to shoot with your tummy against the stage but tough to capture the nuances of the whole band together. I just licensed some images to the Average White Band because of images I shot from the sound board with my 70-200mm f/2.8L. They liked the individual shots but said that the most difficult photographs to find were those of the whole band. Actually, I try to shoot everything I can think of ... I am constantly moving around the Samala Room even during "three songs!" But Earplugs is right ... I usually have everything in front of the stage and to the sides just for me so I can use the monopod and/or tripod (tripod off to the side.) Experiment!

Depending on the club, I move out of the barricade too within my time limit. Sometimes it's the only way to get drummer shots of the opening bands. Had to do that recently. I also bring a "non-pro" digital so I can shoot past my 3 songs! Most shows allow those in the clubs..

[Steve Parr]

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've never been limited to three songs in a club. I did a shoot in one of San Diego's premier live music clubs a few weeks back, with three bands, and I shot all three for the duration of their sets.

I'm sure if I was shooting at the San Diego Sports Arena I might encounter some limits, but I've never heard of it in a club...

Steve

[jfrancho]

Both earplugs and Dwight shoot some high profile performers, maybe that is why there is the limit. I stick to local/indy/blues/country acts that work in small clubs. I can't imagine getting it right in the first three songs - too much pressure! I find that I, like the band, usually find my groove somewhere near the middle of the set. As my ears grow accustomed to the band, my mind is free to concentrate on the pictures. Not completely unlike playing onstage itself. Once you are comfortable, it's like it's just you, the audience, and the music. Sorry if that sounds a little sappy, I can't really describe it without being a little sappy.

[Shabookie]

Depending on the club, I move out of the barricade too within my time limit. Sometimes it's the only way to get drummer shots of the opening bands. Had to do that recently. I also bring a "non-pro" digital so I can shoot past my 3 songs! Most shows allow those in the clubs..

How do you get permission to shot for pro bands?
I tried asking a club if I could take pictures and they said that I would need to contact the lables. WHAT?

What is the process of getting your foot in the door to take some shots of pro bands?

wow, I didnt know there was a limit to the number of songs you can shoot during a set?

[earplugsrequired]

Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've never been limited to three songs in a club. I did a shoot in one of San Diego's premier live music clubs a few weeks back, with three bands, and I shot all three for the duration of their sets.

I'm sure if I was shooting at the San Diego Sports Arena I might encounter some limits, but I've never heard of it in a club...

Steve

Steve,
it has to do with who I'm shooting, same as with Dwight and I believe jfrancho mentions this in their post. I'm shooting signed bands that for the most part are high profile. There have been some that have allowed the entire set and then there have been ones that because of their length of song I was limited to 15 minutes for Dream Theater and 9 minutes for Green Day. When I say a club, I'm talking about premier live music venues. This three song rule comes from the label/band management. It holds here and everywhere for these bands.

[earplugsrequired]

How do you get permission to shot for pro bands?
I tried asking a club if I could take pictures and they said that I would need to contact the lables. WHAT?

What is the process of getting your foot in the door to take some shots of pro bands?

wow, I didnt know there was a limit to the number of songs you can shoot during a set?

To shoot these bands you usually need some sort of assignment/publication. I run a music website so I cover the bands for that site. Depending on the band, sometimes I'm shooting a show for them. There are a few bands that I have met over the years that I just shoot them all the time now and don't have to set up through their label/management. Not all bands allow music websites to cover them either. It's strange which ones will and which will not. For instance, Metallica approved me but No Doubt didn't. I have shot No Doubt before when I was with the opening band on the tour and they got me approval.

But for your other question for getting your foot in door, there are many ways. Find a local music publication to shoot for, find a web 'zine to shoot for, take your camera to events where cameras are allowed ie outdoor festivals. I did that and showed my photos to some bands and started there. Those bands allowed me to shoot as well as one of the band's managements and I was shooting other bands that they managed. I shot Korn that way before I had my website! And btw, I shot the entire set for Korn. I made a special request for that.

[phishhead_23]

I was on myspace.com and noticed a local web 'zine and contacted the guy who ran it and offered my services for free. He took me up on the offer and I was at my first shoot last night (see pics). At that event, I got at least 2 separate inquires about private engagments. It's a start.

[DwightMcCann]

I shot in a local biker bar to start. Then I did one of the bands website. That band pulled me over to a better venue. I shot for the bar manager who was also the local country radio staion program director and running his own management and tour company and he really liked my stuff. He became my first paying (he pays 1/10th a month what the casino pay for a single gig) client after a winery. One day, right out of the blue, he says to me, "I got a job announcing at the casino and I told them they had to hire you, too!" I shot three concerts as an "audition" ... and had a quadruple coronary bypass right in the middle. When they finally called me I expected them to say, "You are an old heart patient and that is just too risky for us!" Instead, they said, "Let's make a deal! Oh, and we need invoices for those first three gigs you did" I think getting in to start is very much like starting a band and trying to get to the top ... almost impossible but you never know ... be assertive, be positive, be friendly, be forgiving (there are a LOT of jerks in this business), be honest, be humble, be loving, treat everyone with respect and then just hope! When other photographers come to the casino I do everything I can to empower them and get them the best shots from the best positions as well as loan equipment and offer support ... seems no matter what I do for them that my pictures are better ... so I will have to work harder for them! And remember, you never know who may just tell you that they got you an amazing job! Oh, I almost forgot to mention ... I got this casino gig when I was 59.

[Mike Bell]

Dwight - Having seen so many of your helpful posts here it was cool to read that little "How I got started" story. The last few words were the killers! LOL!

[emidyl]

Not sure if this was posted but I got most of my initial info from the below site
http://photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_i
Kept my shutter at 1/125 most of the night in Aperture. ISO between 800 and 1600. Never ventured into 3200 although hindsight says I should have tried. My venue had terrible lighting and the aperture readout was constantly blinking. I used partial metering as I only have a 20D where spot metering is not possible.
BTW it was my first shoot yesterday for a client of mine who is a member of old school Anvil here in Toronto. Went through 2 1gig cards in less than 30 min and got perhaps a couple dozen keepers for them. They've already asked me to do a shoot for their site and in studio.
I also used my 50 1.4 all night as I was able to get right up to the stand.

[DwightMcCann]

Yeah, Mike, and now I am 60! :-)


Emidyl, excellent! Keep going!

[emidyl]

Thanks for the encouragement Dwight and for your leadup story into how you got where you are.
There could be hope for me yet.

Cheers

[DwightMcCann]

If there isn't always hope then I am done for! I'm sixty and I need at least 30 years to get my photography business where I want it! :-)