30D a disappointment

[fatrat]

I think it is, yes there are very welcome new features.
I dont care about the LCD screen as it is hopeless for really telling you what a image is like anyway.

I was hoping to upgrade, but i wont bother, the D200 from Nikon kicks its but Spec wise.
i was hoping for at least 10MP, i think Canon have lost the plot and are just trying to protect sales of the 5D, i mean who would buy a 5D if a 10Mp 30D was heaps cheaper??. Unless your a full frame freak.

This makes me think of going to the Nikon D200, because i had a D70 and that was the best Camera i have ever had.

What were Canon thinking?

[EpHeSuS]

They were thinking of low noise at high iso's? The more pixels they cram onto a small sensor, the more noise they get. 8.2mp is plenty unless you're doing pro work. Perhaps you should try interpolating a 20D raw image to 25.2mp and see how it looks before wanting more ;)

[cdifoto]

I think it is, yes there are very welcome new features.
I dont care about the LCD screen as it is hopeless for really telling you what a image is like anyway.

I was hoping to upgrade, but i wont bother, the D200 from Nikon kicks its but Spec wise.
i was hoping for at least 10MP, i think Canon have lost the plot and are just trying to protect sales of the 5D, i mean who would buy a 5D if a 10Mp 30D was heaps cheaper??. Unless your a full frame freak.

This makes me think of going to the Nikon D200, because i had a D70 and that was the best Camera i have ever had.

What were Canon thinking?

Sounds you're stuck in the Point and Shoot "the more MP the better" mode.

[shiato storm]

They were thinking of low noise at high iso's? The more pixels they cram onto a small sensor, the more noise they get. 8.2mp is plenty unless you're doing pro work. Perhaps you should try interpolating a 20D raw image to 25.2mp and see how it looks before wanting more ;)
what interpolation method do you use for that?


oh and unless anyone misses my other post there's a reason why canon stick with 8mpix for the moment:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1140633307.html

[adas]

Why would they upgrade the sensor when the noise level of the 20D at iso 3200 is comparable to noise level of D200 at iso 1600? There's no really competition there.

[Tom W]

Expectations were certainly higher, at least among the forums. Feature-wise, I was expecting 10-11 mpx & the additional 6 AF points of the 5D (along with the rest of the changes), but that didn't happen. I guess that if the present technology isn't ready for low noise at higher pixel counts, then I'm glad that they stuck with the proven 8.2 sensor.

It will be interesting to see what changes were made to the focusing logic to improve its performance, if it is improved.

I think that Canon's working on the next generation of sensors, but they're not ready yet. Even the 5D's sensor is at least loosely based on the 1D Mk II sensor. It's not a ground-up design, though the microlens/filter array appears to be completely new.

One thing's for certain - only a relatively small percentage of 20D owners are going to move to the 30D.

[ron chappel]

Looks like i'm thinking the same thing as everyone else-
Canon have sensibly not reduced the pixel pitch -and thus increased high iso noise.
10Mp is a trivial amount more than 8Mp while genuinely usable 3200 ISO is worth keeping.

Don't get me wrong- i do like the D200.I especially like the way nikon have weather sealing on a non top of the range body.Pity the high iso noise is abit high,that would be the biggest point for me

[EpHeSuS]

what interpolation method do you use for that?


oh and unless anyone misses my other post there's a reason why canon stick with 8mpix for the moment:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1140633307.html

I just use the 'Size' option in Adobe Camera Raw.

[Southswede]

Why would they upgrade the sensor when the noise level of the 20D at iso 3200 is comparable to noise level of D200 at iso 1600? There's no really competition there.


My 20D at ISO 3200 is better and more usable, than the pics from my wife's S2Pro (work issued) at ISO 800!

The 20D is a GREAT camera! The 30D will PROVE to be a great camera!! Will I up-grade? Probably not. I am happy with the 20D.......doea my opinion matter? Only to me. LOL

[INNflight]

Why do you want more than 8mp???

Thousands of pro's shoot with 8.2mp 1dmkII's, and they have no problems to deliver kick-ass stuff.
8 is more than enough, glad they tweaked spot metering into the cam instead of yet another mp upgrade.

I still think I'll wait another year until upgrading.

[Master-9]

This makes me think of going to the Nikon D200, because i had a D70 and that was the best Camera i have ever had.

What were Canon thinking?

Well Dpreview Just posted a full Nikon D200 review
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/

The ball is in your court:lol:

[primoz]

I don't know what expectations were, because I don't have time nor wish to read comments like "I wish my camera would have this and that". But realisticaly speaking... does anyone really think Canon (or anyone else) will combine 1dmk2 and 1dsmk2 and put that new camera out for $1000?
I believe many people want full frame camera, with 30mp, with no noise at iso64000 (yes I didn't make mistake and accidentaly put one 0 too much), blasting fast af with at least 100 high precission af points, 20fps and weather sealed body for less then $1000. Sure I would take one too, but being realistic this just won't happen anytime soon. So because I would want all that stuff mentioned before, I'm now dissapointed because this didn't happen? Well... ok if someone really is, but try to finally understand that 30d is just normal amater camera. And amater cameras usually don't have all those fancy features which 5 times more expensive pro cameras have. On the end it's still that you get what you pay for. And for all those "oh it would be so good to have" features there is solution... with Canon it's called 1d or 1ds. ;)

[foxbat]

Don't feed the trolls folks... ;)

[cdifoto]

I actually agree with Primoz, except for the reference to anything less than a 1D as being "amateur". If you want the world, buy the 1Ds. If you can't afford it, keep dreaming and use the one you can afford. And to be honest, if you can't afford it, you probably don't even really need it. If you do need it, and still can't afford it, you aren't charging enough for your work.

[shiato storm]

either way the 30d is out there now so its time to see how well its recieved world-wide. i suspect forum users represent a very small percentage of canon camera users, particularly those that got 20D's... we're the hardcore fans here, 30D is more than adequate for 'the masses'. don't like it? save your money and wait.

[BTBeilke]

They were thinking of low noise at high iso's? The more pixels they cram onto a small sensor, the more noise they get. 8.2mp is plenty unless you're doing pro work. Perhaps you should try interpolating a 20D raw image to 25.2mp and see how it looks before wanting more ;)

That is not entirely true. What you said is accurate if they have to make the photosites smaller in order to get more of them on the same sized sensor. However, a sensor is not a continuous bed of photosites. Obviously, there is the structure that holds the photosites in place. So, theoretically, they could up the MP count of the sensor by maintaining the current size of the photosites and improving the structural component so that they could be placed closer together. Of course, there are limitations in that regard as well but it is another way to attack this issue.

[mbellot]

What were Canon thinking?
To entice some of the older, non EF-S APS-C body (D30, D60 10D) owners into upgrading most likely.

This is a replacement for the 20D, not some super fantastic, mind numbing upgrade.

If you bought a car last year would you really expect some earth shattering upgrade on the same model released this year?

Incremental upgrades are the norm, something really astounding (like a FF 5D for $3200) is not going to happen at every PMA/Photokina - it just can't.


I'd be thrilled to see Canon follow Nikon's D70/D70s lead and offer the firmware only changes to 20D owners. Free would be great, but even for a nominal cost (sub $100) I think a lot of 20D owners would jump at the chance.

Unlikely, but who knows. Besides, with the forums anything is possible. :D

[red hot sheep]

I completely see why canon kept 8 megapixels so as not to increase noise. But, isn't the 30d said to have less noisy high ISO images? How would that be achieved?

[mrclark321]

I am so disappointed also. It should have had at least 24 megapixels, ISO up to 7000, 90 point focus system and all the features of the 1D MKIIn. And all this for a couple hundred bucks more than the 20D. :(

Would I buy one......Absolutely
Theres a lot of consumers out there that would be more than happy with
getting the 20D

Dan

[chtgrubbs]

Why not get a Sony R1? Same sensor,(basically) as the the Nikon, a gorgeous Carl Zeiss zoom lens, and about 1/3 the price of the Nikon with equivalent glass!

[cdifoto]

I went to the local Dodge dealer and told them I wanted a Viper and handed them a check for $17,999... and told them that I considered that payment in full. They wouldn't let me take the Viper. :(

[Tom W]

To entice some of the older, non EF-S APS-C body (D30, D60 10D) owners into upgrading most likely.

Not to mention a host of film users that still haven't made the switch.

This is a replacement for the 20D, not some super fantastic, mind numbing upgrade.

Yep - it's a replacement, not a different model.

If you bought a car last year would you really expect some earth shattering upgrade on the same model released this year?

Incremental upgrades are the norm, something really astounding (like a FF 5D for $3200) is not going to happen at every PMA/Photokina - it just can't.


I'd be thrilled to see Canon follow Nikon's D70/D70s lead and offer the firmware only changes to 20D owners. Free would be great, but even for a nominal cost (sub $100) I think a lot of 20D owners would jump at the chance.

Unlikely, but who knows. Besides, with the forums anything is possible. :D

I suspect that about 1/2 of the improvements on the 30D could be firmware-related. But there are some hardware changes such as the spot-metering (The 30D white paper claims that physical changes were made to the positioning of the metering sensor to allow for spot metering instead of partial metering) and buffer size that can't be upgraded electronically.

Do note that picture styles are available to most Canon DSLR users if they shoot RAW and process with DPP 2.0 or higher (and I can't wait to download version 2.1). You'll just have to access them through the computer rather than on the camera.

[Adekeyser]

There are a couple of things to remember in this from the company point of view. First you have to change things as every product in todays world has a life cycle. AS far as Canon is concerned the 20D has reached the end of its life cycle. To get more sales give it a new name and a little cosmectic change and you have millions of dollars in sales. Have you actually changed anything no not really. But the perception is there that you have. Is there any real difference that is going to make me go out and get the new 30D no, but it has some nice new features. When my 20D bites the dust I will probably get it then.

[mbellot]

I suspect that about 1/2 of the improvements on the 30D could be firmware-related. But there are some hardware changes such as the spot-metering (The 30D white paper claims that physical changes were made to the positioning of the metering sensor to allow for spot metering instead of partial metering) and buffer size that can't be upgraded electronically.
I've read several reports (including an interview with Chuck Westfall) that claim the increased RAW (and JPEG I guess) buffer is a software trick, not a larger RAM buffer (as I myself originally assumed).

Spot metering would be nice, but I have not used it with the 20D so I don't know that I'd miss it.

The big three (in my opinion) are:


1. 1/3 ISO increments (would be nice if it was CF selectable for 1 stop or 1/3 stop). It just opens up more possibilities for higher shutter speeds without resorting to a full ISO1600 and the noise that comes with it.

2. Larger RAW buffer capability. I don't use it often, but having the ability is a big plus.

3. More than 100 images per directory. This is a simple annoyance that should have never been.

If the "improved" Auto Focus is strictly firmware (and by all reports the AF hardware is unchanged between the 20D and 30D) then I think Canon should toss that one in to the next firmware upgrade regardless. If the focus algo was sub-optimal they should treat it as a bug and issue the fix.

I'd also like to see RGB histograms, but again a CF to select it vs. luminance would be nice for quickie review situations.

The rest of it is "eye candy" (like visible focus points in review mode) that can easily be lived without, or definite hardware changes (like ISO in the VF).

Like I said before, I'd even be willing to pay some small amount for the upgrade - but its not worth the cost of selling my 20D to buy a 30D.


Do note that picture styles are available to most Canon DSLR users if they shoot RAW and process with DPP 2.0 or higher (and I can't wait to download version 2.1). You'll just have to access them through the computer rather than on the camera.

Yup, but I don't use them. I was a DPP die hard, but I'm actually almost ready to drop the dime for Bibble. I've tried just about every free/trial RAW converter and Bibble is really something to behold once you get used to the UI.

[shiato storm]

I completely see why canon kept 8 megapixels so as not to increase noise. But, isn't the 30d said to have less noisy high ISO images? How would that be achieved?
no, thats not been said any where, its the same. even that guy Chuck Westfall says they are identical. the hardware IS THE SAME inside, minor tweeks are the lcd and...and... well, the lcd.

[Tom W]

Well Dpreview Just posted a full Nikon D200 review
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/

The ball is in your court:lol:

I couldn't get past page 21 - with NR on, the D200 and D2X lose detail at high ISO settings. With NR off, they are horribly noisy. Admittedly, high-ISO shooting is important to me. That's not true for everyone, of course.

It's nice to see Phil Askey's expanded the testing to include RAW DR & vignetting.

[Tom W]

...
Yup, but I don't use them. I was a DPP die hard, but I'm actually almost ready to drop the dime for Bibble. I've tried just about every free/trial RAW converter and Bibble is really something to behold once you get used to the UI.

I'll have to give this Bibble a try. Raw Essentials won't touch the 5D with the free version so I can't test its capabilities. Right now, I use Adobe when noise is an issue, and DPP otherwise.

[EOSAddict]

I went to the local Dodge dealer and told them I wanted a Viper and handed them a check for $17,999... and told them that I considered that payment in full. They wouldn't let me take the Viper. :(

LMAO, about time someone deflated the hype surrounding all this. Anyone read the 'You want the truth?' thread over on fredmiranda? Hilarious.

[Andrew Khan]

Of course it is. This camera, the 20D's succesor did not need an upgraded/new version of it to be manifactured. It was just ANOTHER excuse for the Canon corporation to get rich off of people who feel they have to upgrade, and people who don't actually need to but do anyway, Canon in my opinion, is a low company.

[EOSAddict]

Of course it is. This camera, the 20D's succesor did not need an upgraded/new version of it to be manifactured. It was just ANOTHER excuse for the Canon corporation to get rich off of people who feel they have to upgrade, and people who don't actually need to but do anyway, Canon in my opinion, is a low company.

Oh get real, Canon is a profit making company not a charity!

[adas]

Canon is a profit making company not a charity!

That's true. Companies are conducted by cold economists rather than romantic engineers.

[Papaw]

I can't see where there is any LCD Monitor brightness control on the 30D, where the 20D has 5 levels to choose from.

Jack

[Tom W]

I can't see where there is any LCD Monitor brightness control on the 30D, where the 20D has 5 levels to choose from.

Jack

It's the same - listed on the White Paper for the 30D.

[Tom W]

Of course it is. This camera, the 20D's succesor did not need an upgraded/new version of it to be manifactured. It was just ANOTHER excuse for the Canon corporation to get rich off of people who feel they have to upgrade, and people who don't actually need to but do anyway, Canon in my opinion, is a low company.

It's so evil - somebody making money from someone else that chooses to spend it. I'm sorry but one would have to assume that the general public is too stupid to decide whether to buy a camera or not before they could even think of passing blame for someone's purchasing decision onto another party.

Canon sells cameras. It's up to the individual to apply their own wisdom as to whether they should purchase one. If they buy it but didn't really need or want it, it's nobody's fault but their own.

[MrChad]

I'm amazed at the responce, I guess the 8.2MP doesn't bother me, I'm more impressed to finally have spot metering and in the 1/3 ISO choice options, that's what I've been wanting for some time, finally something between 800-1600 on an affordable digital.

And digital could stay at 8MP for life if the sensors would have the latitude of negative film, that would rock :p

[overclock]

With all of the hype that was surrounding the 30D people are disappointed there isn't more. I am personally glad there wasn't because I got the 20D for $835 after rebate and all during the big rebate push. Now all of those that put their 20Ds up for sale at rock bottom prices to liquidate them so they could buy a 30D Nikon killer will be buying them back.

[cdifoto]

With all of the hype that was surrounding the 30D people are disappointed there isn't more. I am personally glad there wasn't because I got the 20D for $835 after rebate and all during the big rebate push. Now all of those that put their 20Ds up for sale at rock bottom prices to liquidate them so they could buy a 30D Nikon killer will be buying them back.

I'm sticking with my lowly XTs until they die on me.

[cjm]

Actually the more I think of it, the more I like the 30D. After all it gives my 10D a little more life and soon I'll be able to get a 20D for cheap because someone will buy a 30D to replace it because they have to have the newest bestest most awesome super duper cameras. Which is fine by me. The camera I really have my eye on is a 5D but I know I wont be able to afford one of those for some time, even if I put $400 away each month for one. (And the cheap scape in my will probably just buy a new 30D anyways!).

Yeah the 30D isn't really an upgrade in the sense we are used to. After all it only looks like the software is upgraded. Then again, who would want to use Windows 2000 when XP is available? The software upgrades do seem to be very good ones as far as they go. I am interested though, to see what Steves DigiCam thinks of the 30D. Should be an interesting (Or boring if cameras don't interest you) read.

[buckwheat]

I have another take. If I had the wonderful 20D I would not be wasting my time reading and complaining about the 30D upgrade. But I guess I am luckier than some 20D-ers that may want to change their cameras every 10 minutes, since I own a lowly 300D. Now who's the smart one...I am going to buy the 30D soon since it really is an 'upgrade' for me, regardless of the differences from the 20D. So my suggestion is not to bother worrying about all this 20D or 30D stuff and go take pictures! IMHO of course!

[Nabil-A]

What concerns me is that they have offered the 30d at a price cheaper than the now 20D.

[rklepper]

Not sure how you can be dissappointed in something you obviously have not had the opportunity to use.

[Andrew Khan]

It's so evil - somebody making money from someone else that chooses to spend it. I'm sorry but one would have to assume that the general public is too stupid to decide whether to buy a camera or not before they could even think of passing blame for someone's purchasing decision onto another party.

Canon sells cameras. It's up to the individual to apply their own wisdom as to whether they should purchase one. If they buy it but didn't really need or want it, it's nobody's fault but their own.

Yes, but what you are not taking into consideration is, the Canon corporation is the cause/purpose for the stress and application of the enhanced motivation to purchase there most recent product out, of the logic of being left behind, or just feeling that they have to.

Not sure how you can be dissappointed in something you obviously have not had the opportunity to use.


Actually, it's quite simple to deduce the fact that a camera is a dissapointment, simply by looking at the chaos relativity theory. A human being can summon a decision whenever he/she wishes to, whether or not the decision is an appropriate one, is in the eye of the beholder.

[mrclark321]

Yes, but what you are not taking into consideration is, the Canon corporation is the cause/purpose for the stress and application of the enhanced motivation to purchase there most recent product out, of the logic of being left behind, or just feeling that they have to.

Your joking right?

[smirchfa]

Yes, but what you are not taking into consideration is, the Canon corporation is the cause/purpose for the stress and application of the enhanced motivation to purchase there most recent product out, of the logic of being left behind, or just feeling that they have to.


We're humans. We have brains and hence, hopefully, some common sense and self-control. If someone can't resist buying the newest and greatest just "because," then more power to Canon for making money off of a helpless, hopeless fool.

[Andrew Khan]

I’m not a fool, if that is what you are implying, and I am absolutely not joking. Canon is a greedy company, okay? I may have a camera from, there but I do not believe it is appropriate to come out with a cameras successor every year, and expect people to buy it….surprisingly if you did a poll of the general public, photographers, or not you would find that most of them would want or would upgrade, but also may have insufficient funds. A scenario may be, wanting to upgrade so terribly bad, that you can not hence insufficient funds, which could potentially lead to suicide. Not that this is a common occurrence in everyday life, but I am simply implying Canon adds superior motivation and potentially fatal stress to citizens. The general public, as we all know is quite ignorant.

[smirchfa]

A scenario may be, wanting to upgrade so terribly bad, that you can not hence insufficient funds, which could potentially lead to suicide. Not that this is a common occurrence in everyday life, but I am simply implying Canon adds superior motivation and potentially fatal stress to citizens.

This is awesome.

[smirchfa]

Camera upgrade tension leads to mass suicide..tonight on NIGHTLINE! Imagine the possibilities. I think I'll go write a song about it.

[smirchfa]

Andrew, I'm not calling you a fool - I think you are either very very funny or a bit, ummm, differently opinionated.

[Andrew Khan]

I might have let that go a bit far, in fact. I can see it now, in the Newspapers, "Suicide in New York, dissapointed Camera Consumers."

[mrclark321]

I might have let that go a bit far, in fact. I can see it now, in the Newspapers, "Suicide in New York, dissapointed Camera Consumers."

LOL...There are so many companies like that, my god just think of all the "SPAM" you get on your computer! So what do you do....filter it out

Dan

[Moppie]

I’m not a fool, if that is what you are implying, and I am absolutely not joking. Canon is a greedy company, okay?

Let me take a wild guess, and Ill give meself 2 to 1 odds of being right, your a 1st or 2nd year Uni student, who just discovered some liberal arts papers and the great realisation that companys don't have feelings, and are driven by only one motivation; Money.

[Tom W]

I might have let that go a bit far, in fact. I can see it now, in the Newspapers, "Suicide in New York, dissapointed Camera Consumers."

I'm glad you said that! :)

I was about to say that if Canon can cause that much stress on a person, we're all doomed when it comes to Women & love and all that crazy, irrational stuff. I've done a few moderately irrational things in my life, but they all pale in comparison to the things I've done in the name of love.

Controlling spending is easy. Controlling yourself when hormones play their evil game is nearly impossible.

Now I'm so upset that I need to buy another camera..... ;)

[sqjaw]

Some of us seem to jump all over things***
I wonder if its for lack of something to do,
We as people never seem to be satisfied with what we have and never seem to use it to the
fullist ,it was meant to be used as: For myself
I had to have at least three lens ???:confused: :confused:
So I now have three lens, each has its use, they may over lap in places but so be it, I believe no matter what equipment you have
if you can not make it work for you, then you have wasted a heck of money on glass and camera, !

Folks give things a chance before you take out those double barrel shot guns and go hunting
for nothing!!!:) :) :)

sqjaw

[Andrew Khan]

Let me take a wild guess, and Ill give meself 2 to 1 odds of being right, your a 1st or 2nd year Uni student, who just discovered some liberal arts papers and the great realisation that companys don't have feelings, and are driven by only one motivation; Money.

Umm, actually you’re absolutely wrong. I have no idea where you would summon an idea so unrelated and merely abstract and paste it to me. I am actually a junior in High school, and have been well aware of companies, how they operate, and what drives them, for many years.

[cdifoto]

Umm, actually you’re absolutely wrong. I have no idea where you would summon an idea so unrelated and merely abstract and paste it to me. I am actually a junior in High school, and have been well aware of companies, how they operate, and what drives them, for many years.

Do you wear Nikes, Reeboks, Skechers, or any other name brand shoe or apparel? If so, why? Those companies, after all, are evil. If you don't get the sneakers you want...you might kill yourself. And you wouldn't want that.

[Andrew Khan]

Actually I walk around barefoot, and get my feet cut up by glass in the street by drunk people who litter and throw there beer and vodka bottles into the street, shattering on impact. I come home each day with severe cuts on each feet, and glass stuck in my toes.

[cdifoto]

Actually I walk around barefoot, and get my feet cut up by glass in the street by drunk people who litter and throw there beer and vodka bottles into the street, shattering on impact. I come home each day with severe cuts on each feet, and glass stuck in my toes.


:rolleyes: Isn't it past your bed time, Buddha?

[mrclark321]

Lets keep it civil everyone and get back to the topic of the original post :)

Dan

[Andrew Khan]

I was attempting simple humor.

[cdifoto]

I was attempting simple humor.

It worked. ;)

[Barb42]

I am not a bit disappointed. Canon has provided a great price, excellent refinements, and the expectation of a quality image in the end. I have a 10D and waited to see what Canon would do after the 20D. Low noise, high ISO, spot metering....and rounding it all out with one of the great new Canon printers, - I am on a roll. It will be a great year for photography.

[Moppie]

I am actually a junior in High school,


Close enough :)
Enjoy being idealistic for as long as you can, reality is a bitch.


It's interesting that this thread went from questioning a product from a company, to examining the pschological process that cause people to have such questions.

[Tom W]

Close enough :)
Enjoy being idealistic for as long as you can, reality is a bitch.

A couple of years in the workforce cures many of life's ills. I'm so greedy that I asked to have my wages increased last year.

It's interesting that this thread went from questioning a product from a company, to examining the pschological process that cause people to have such questions.

Why do you find that interesting? ;)

[mbellot]

Then again, who would want to use Windows 2000 when XP is available?

Plenty of people.

Windows eXPerimental added a whole boatload of stuff that people who care about privacy and want to truly be in control of their computer don't care for in the least.

We put an XP system on our corporate network and spent an entire week figuring out what was generating all the various (unrequested) outbound traffic.


But enough about uber-fuhrer Gates and his stormtroopers of doom, we were all discussing the 20D Mk II (or is it the 20Dn?).

I'm so greedy that I asked to have my wages increased last year.

Lazy sloth. I never have to ask for an increase, my work speaks for itself. :P

[Moppie]

Why do you find that interesting? ;)

The voices make me think about it.........




Heres a scary thought, I wonder people made this much fuss everytime a new film SLR came out. i.e. Complained that despite improvments in focus and metering systems, the damn thing still used the same 35mm film?

Now I maybe getting a little speculative here, but based on some of the posts I have read by the very knowledgable LongWatcher, sensor technology is reaching a MP barrier, the point at which you can't get more MP with out making a much bigger sensor, so maybe Canon is working on making a standardised sensor, one they can put in a range of digital SLRs all with slightly different spec levels?
How many film bodys did they have on the market at anyone time?
Is there any reason you can't have the same number of digital bodies all useing the same sensor?

[mbze430]

With film camera, it was a little different. Body function changes were small, and updates wasn't like now. Camera body lasts for several years. Because the film was the same. Not digital sensor.

But with everything in life, everyone has a 2 cent about something. No one is ever happy. Even till today the x-sync speed has always been debated upon.

AF system and performance. The list goes on. Not much difference, about the same conversion you all having now....

[fatrat]

I just dont think the extra features are enough to warrant a new model.

Maybe it should be called the 20D XT or something.

Bigger faster buffer is good. Although the 20D is good enough for my needs in that area.

LCD screen dont give a toss
less noise at higher ISO, well the 20D is pretty good i think and i dont care how good the 30D is at high ISO as i always use Noise Ninja on Pictures taken at high ISO so it not going to make a differance for me.

One thing that would make a differance to me is a Extra 2Mp because i print alot to A2 and A1 where i have to up sample my Images, I never have a Problem at A2 with the 20D also A1 prints very nicely as well, but if i be anal about it a look really closely at the A1 Print i can tell its not as sharp and the quality is getting lower compared to the A2 (although you really have to have a good look, how ever you can see it if you have a trained eye, most people cant tell the differace when i have asked them)

Thats where the extra 2MP would come in very handy, i would rather the extra 2MP in my situation.
Yes lower noise at higher ISO is good but its not like it will be that much better and it will still have noise,so i still would have to use noise Ninja (which does a great job by the way)

I just dont have a Canon upgrade Option because the 30D is not enough for me to warrent a upgrade, the 5D is out of my price range.
The onlu upgrade option that looks good is the D200 and i dont want to switch again

[Tom W]

The voices make me think about it.........




Heres a scary thought, I wonder people made this much fuss everytime a new film SLR came out. i.e. Complained that despite improvments in focus and metering systems, the damn thing still used the same 35mm film?

Now I maybe getting a little speculative here, but based on some of the posts I have read by the very knowledgable LongWatcher, sensor technology is reaching a MP barrier, the point at which you can't get more MP with out making a much bigger sensor, so maybe Canon is working on making a standardised sensor, one they can put in a range of digital SLRs all with slightly different spec levels?
How many film bodys did they have on the market at anyone time?
Is there any reason you can't have the same number of digital bodies all useing the same sensor?

You are very correct. I shot with the same old 1968 FT-QL, oblivious to the introduction of auto-exposure, (not to mention auto-focus) using nothing but a built-in centerweighted light meter. And once I upgraded to the Elan II with all its fine features, I still had the same image quality as output. Yes, it was easier, and more flexible. Faster to use. Lighter (and less sturdy). And maybe even a bit more consistent. But I didn't await each new model, nor was there a replacement every 18 months.

Fast-forward to the World of DSLR cameras and suddenly, things change so rapidly that people expect resolution increases with every body, regardless of the cost and consequences. With film cameras, we generally ignored the advances, perhaps replacing a camera at much longer intervals or only when it finally broke. Now, we've become accustomed to the fast changes of major advances with every model. But the speed at which advances are made has slowed, and the expectations haven't.

There is something of a barrier to increasing megapixels without the negative effects that smaller photosites bring in terms of signal-to-noise ratios. Canons are known for low-noise high-ISO sensors, and I don't expect them to give up that position. Sure, there'll be technological improvements that allow higher pixel density, but as we've seen from the Nikon/Sony sensors, that level hasn't been reached yet. It will become increasingly harder and more expensive to make further gains in sensor resolution while keeping S/N ratios equal to today's levels or better.

That's not to say that newer sensors won't be out soon, but the interval will grow longer, and the changes will grow smaller, according to the law of diminishing returns (and barring some major quantum leap in technology). The market is maturing, finally. Which is good, since that drive to constantly upgrade will start to diminish.

[TimSewell]

"Which is good, since that drive to constantly upgrade will start to diminish."

And thanks be to every God (including Mammon) if it does. There's a lot of good stuff on this forum but far too much about expensive gear and far too little about the technique/art/philosophy of photography. I really only read through this thread after spotting the input of Andrew Khan, who spoke a lot of sense, if not always coherently. The digital camera market is, like many tech' markets, driven by a constant fear that the other guy may have something better than you. Over the last couple of centuries corporations have learnt very well how to harness that human failing in their pursuit of growth and profit. Sooner or later it will have to end (did this guy say 'modern capitalism has a limited lifespan'? - off to camp x-ray with him!)

In the days of film, as several people have mentioned, one bought a camera body and then concentrated on acquiring lenses and other accessories suitable to produce the images one required; but more importantly concentrated on mastering the medium. These days we spend half our time working ourselves into a frenzy over what delights the next model might hold - in many cases just so we can take the same pictures of our dogs and cats and kids but with a $5000 kit instead of a $1000 kit.

A rant, I know; but can't we just leave worrying about camera features until such time as we each need to replace equipment and spend a lot more time making pictures?

[Jon]

"Which is good, since that drive to constantly upgrade will start to diminish."

And thanks be to every God (including Mammon) if it does. There's a lot of good stuff on this forum but far too much about expensive gear and far too little about the technique/art/philosophy of photography. I really only read through this thread after spotting the input of Andrew Khan, who spoke a lot of sense, if not always coherently. The digital camera market is, like many tech' markets, driven by a constant fear that the other guy may have something better than you. Over the last couple of centuries corporations have learnt very well how to harness that human failing in their pursuit of growth and profit. Sooner or later it will have to end (did this guy say 'modern capitalism has a limited lifespan'? - off to camp x-ray with him!)

In the days of film, as several people have mentioned, one bought a camera body and then concentrated on acquiring lenses and other accessories suitable to produce the images one required; but more importantly concentrated on mastering the medium. These days we spend half our time working ourselves into a frenzy over what delights the next model might hold - in many cases just so we can take the same pictures of our dogs and cats and kids but with a $5000 kit instead of a $1000 kit.

A rant, I know; but can't we just leave worrying about camera features until such time as we each need to replace equipment and spend a lot more time making pictures?
Bear in mind that this particular section of POTN is dedicated to discussion of Canon EOS DSLRs. We have other areas devoted to subject matter and general photography considerations. If you're bothered by an emphasis on technology, hardware advances and techniques needed to get the most out of it, you needn't read the "Equipment Talk" section. That's what "Photo Sharing" and "Sharing Knowhow " sections are for.

[roanjohn]

30D..........disappointment?? For many, YES. I think the reason is because this is the first time Canon introduced something that did not beat Nikon "spec" wise. But a lot of people are too hung up on specs........... At the end of the day, its really all about optics and image quality. Believe you me that my lowly XT with the new 85 f1.2 will beat out any images from the 200D and ZEISS 85 f1.4 any day..........at ISO 1600 ;-)

How do I konw??.............Cuz my momma told me so :-)!!! HAHAHA!!! j/k.......

Seriously though, at this point of the game..........we should be concentrating on optics as opposed to bodies. Canon introduced a very nice and appealing 17-55 f2.8 IS!!! If you have money burning in your pockets.....instead of the camera.......get the lens!!! It will give you more possibilities and will open up new perspectives for you to shoot.

Ro1

[Tom W]

"Which is good, since that drive to constantly upgrade will start to diminish."

And thanks be to every God (including Mammon) if it does. There's a lot of good stuff on this forum but far too much about expensive gear and far too little about the technique/art/philosophy of photography. I really only read through this thread after spotting the input of Andrew Khan, who spoke a lot of sense, if not always coherently. The digital camera market is, like many tech' markets, driven by a constant fear that the other guy may have something better than you. Over the last couple of centuries corporations have learnt very well how to harness that human failing in their pursuit of growth and profit. Sooner or later it will have to end (did this guy say 'modern capitalism has a limited lifespan'? - off to camp x-ray with him!)

Well, it is the GEAR part of the forum. And the desire to buy or not buy lies solely with the buyer. Canon, et. al., presents the product. You make the decision. It's not a human failing, it's an individual failing if you let someone else talk you into doing something against your own will. Advertizing is not an irresistable force.

Frankly, many people buy this stuff not because Canon talked them into it, but because they wanted to buy it. Most of us earn our own money, and are free to spend it as we please. It seems to me that many people want someone else to protect them from their own selves. I don't subscribe to that mindset.

In the days of film, as several people have mentioned, one bought a camera body and then concentrated on acquiring lenses and other accessories suitable to produce the images one required; but more importantly concentrated on mastering the medium. These days we spend half our time working ourselves into a frenzy over what delights the next model might hold - in many cases just so we can take the same pictures of our dogs and cats and kids but with a $5000 kit instead of a $1000 kit.

Again, that is an individual prerogative. It really shouldn't matter a bit if somebody else chooses to spend their money as they please. One of the neat things about working (once the government confiscates its cut) is that the money earned is the sole property of the person that earned it.

That's not to say that I don't think that it might be silly, from a strictly photographic point of view, to shoot images of ones' pets with a $5000 kit when a $1000 kit will do. But it isn't the silliest thing, and there are other reasons beyond the strictly artistic definition of photography to own photographic equipment. There is enjoyment to be had outside of the final print.

A rant, I know; but can't we just leave worrying about camera features until such time as we each need to replace equipment and spend a lot more time making pictures?

An understandable rant, and worth reading and taking into consideration. I don't think that it's worthwhile for people to get worked up over "keeping up with the Joneses" either, but if that's what people want to do, then that's what they're going to do. As long as the consequences (and benefits) for those actions are borne by those that follow them, I really don't have a dog in the race.

[Moppie]

I really don't have a dog in the race.

You wouldn't want to, it would get eaten by the rats...... :)


There is a growing awareness of the negative side to a capitalist society and economy, and I think a lot of people are expressing that awareness in this thread. How relevent it is to the 30D I don't know, but it has become apparent that as a product it does buck the trend some what, possibly indicating either a maturing of the technology, or a maturing of the coporation, or a bit of both.


From a purly on topic stand point I think it shows that Canon believes the 20D is such a fantastic camera that there wasn't a lot that could be done to improve it. Hence the 30D is not really an upgrade, its just a replacement for a market that expects a new model every 18 months.