85 L Action Assignment

[mebailey]

Iam sure many of you saw Dante King's thread in the People photo sharing area dealing with action shots with the "slow" focusing 85 L and the announcement of the faster focusing 85 L mkII. In case not, here it is:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=140753

I saw how sharp Dante's pics were of his kids on a moving tire swing. I asserted that his 1DsmkII+85L were a great combo (because of the 1Ds great ability for quick focusing(45 AF pts ect...)). I also said that I doubted my 5D+85L could do as good a job as his rig. Dante said he was not so sure and that I should try it myself.
Today I took the challenge... The day here was overcast. I could not find an identical swing so I went with what I could find. Dante told me that he shot his pics in AI servo, AV mode, at f 4.5. I dialed in those parameters and shot 30 RAW pics at iso 100-200 and SS 1/400-1/1250. I was not concerned so much about composition and good posing as I was about technical quality. I wanted to know if the non-pro 5D could focus the 85L fast enough to get some action keepers like Dante had done with the 1DsmkII. I screened these in Canon DPP and found the following: six were culled immediately for OOF, nine were of decent quality unmagnified but lacked that last degree of sharpness at 100% crop, finally there were 15 which were tack sharp at 100% crop. I then processed some examples of the intermediate group and the sharp group in PS. I think many of the OOFs were my fault as I had never practised panning before (not being an action/sports photographer myself). Thus the 5D+85L can do a credible job on action subjects if you use good technique and set up the camera optimally.
Here is a sharp one with 100% crop...

[mebailey]

Here is another sharp one and crop...

[mebailey]

Here are a couple more sharp ones...

[mebailey]

Here is one of the intermediate ones with crop...
Sorry about all the eyes closed. He was not cooperating very well.

[PetKal]

Excellent shots Mike, a very fine performance report.
(That kid must be some "customer", looking at the expression on his face on shot #1).

In fact, I do not consider 85L to be unduly slow for this sort of moving objects, even if it were used with 300D in AI Servo AF. That's something to confirm though.

Generally, I find that people make too much of a big deal outta 85 L's AF speed or lack thereof. Sometimes the most vocal in that regard seem to be those folks who perhaps have never really used/owned the lens.

[condyk]

Generally, I find that people make too much of a big deal outta 85 L's AF speed or lack thereof. Sometimes the most vocal in that regard seem to be those folks who perhaps have never really used/owned the lens.

I agree ... reading some 'stuff' posted here could lead the uninformed to think only USM is good enough to take a simple snapshot. A great lens is a great lens: sometimes we just need to get to know them and take the time to improve our craft.

[PetKal]

I agree ... reading some 'stuff' posted here could lead the uninformed to think only USM is good enough to take a simple snapshot. A great lens is a great lens: sometimes we just need to get to know them and take the time to improve our craft.
Right, right, even if you have to focus the friggin thing manually, for crying out loud from the top of your lungs because your daily dose has been ....oops...better stop, I am starting to digress here exponentially...

[olz]

Nice pics indeed, but I'm not sure they can confirm nor deny any issues regarding focus? Focus is importaint to pics like this but so is shutter speed. When you copy Dantes setting (AV f/4.5) you ignored the availeble light in your shooting situation. I see no reason that the 20D or 300D with the 85L shouldn't be able to do similar pics? (question asked - not a statement :D)

[blue_max]

I have the befefit of USM and still mangage to produce out of focus shots.

I have an old camera (10d) so will blame that, but if I upgrade, I will lose that excuse.

Technique will overcome all. If you can get any shots in focus with that lens (given it's reputation), then you are not a bad photographer - or the lenses reputation is ill deserved.

That particualar lens has been around quite a while and is clearly capable of excellent results. It's probably in the professional class, given its price, so it has to be judged by professional standards.

I am surprised that Canon saw fit to update it. I really wonder how many they actually sell.

Graham

[mebailey]

Nice pics indeed, but I'm not sure they can confirm nor deny any issues regarding focus? Focus is importaint to pics like this but so is shutter speed. When you copy Dantes setting (AV f/4.5) you ignored the availeble light in your shooting situation. I see no reason that the 20D or 300D with the 85L shouldn't be able to do similar pics? (question asked - not a statement :D)

Thanks for the above replys. I selected f4.5 firstly because that is what Dante used. Secondly because I believe that f4.5 is or is very close to the sharpness sweet spot for this lens. I didnt ignore available light but I could not change it nor did I know what shutter speed Dante used.
There is no reason I know of that a 20D or 300D could not perform the same but it would have to be shown. Hey, there's a job for someone!

[PetKal]

I have the befefit of USM and still mangage to produce out of focus shots.

I have an old camera (10d) so will blame that, but if I upgrade, I will lose that excuse.

Technique will overcome all. If you can get any shots in focus with that lens (given it's reputation), then you are not a bad photographer - or the lenses reputation is ill deserved.

That particualar lens has been around quite a while and is clearly capable of excellent results. It's probably in the professional class, given its price, so it has to be judged by professional standards.

I am surprised that Canon saw fit to update it. I really wonder how many they actually sell.
Graham

My thinking too. If one finds their 85L too slow for basketball, then get yourself an 85 1.8 or a 300 2.8. End of a problem. Horses for courses.
What's next.....expanding the focal length of the EF 16-35 f2.8 because some owners have a difficulty shootin soarin bald eagles with it ?

[Dante King]

Great test. You have experienced what I did, excpet that all my shots were tack sharp! LOL j/k.

I think that depending on the body, you will have a different result in AI servo. Given that the 5D has improved focusing and AI servo over the lower models, I would expect to see more in focus. I would be very curious for some one to test this with a 20D or XT.

PetKal is correct, technique is supreme. I for one had to shoot differently with the 85L in my test. My fast primes or zooms are almost instant on focus. There is a little lag in the 85L but switching to AI servo helped. As well, I chose 4.5 av not as the sweet spot as I find my copy to be damn sharp even at 1.2, but to increase the DOF to have a fighting chance of any kind of reasonable focus on kids moving in an elipse pattern going mach 3 on a tire swing.

I for one walked away much better in tune with my 85L as I had just used it for portraits until my test series. If i had to do these tests again with a lens from my bag and get the sme reasonable perspective, it woulds have to be with my 24-70 or 70-200. In that case I am more than positive in AI servo, it would have been like shooting ducks in a bathtub as fas as sharpness goes.

[PetKal]

Great test. You have experienced what I did, excpet that all my shots were tack sharp! LOL j/k.

I think that depending on the body, you will have a different result in AI servo. Given that the 5D has improved focusing and AI servo over the lower models, I would expect to see more in focus. I would be very curious for some one to test this with a 20D or XT.

PetKal is correct, technique is supreme. I for one had to shoot differently with the 85L in my test. My fast primes or zooms are almost instant on focus. There is a little lag in the 85L but switching to AI servo helped. As well, I chose 4.5 av not as the sweet spot as I find my copy to be damn sharp even at 1.2, but to increase the DOF to have a fighting chance of any kind of reasonable focus on kids moving in an elipse pattern going mach 3 on a tire swing.

I for one walked away much better in tune with my 85L as I had just used it for portraits until my test series. If i had to do these tests again with a lens from my bag and get the sme reasonable perspective, it woulds have to be with my 24-70 or 70-200. In that case I am more than positive in AI servo, it would have been like shooting ducks in a bathtub as fas as sharpness goes.

Yup, that's it, brother Dante.
All this reminds me of a few early reports of EF-S 60 Macro....some folks were complaining that the AF is slow and that it hunted too much. Humbug ! What they experienced is trying to macro shoot a ladybug and then immediately thereafter take a snapshot of their kid standing 10 feet away from them.

[olz]

I selected f4.5 firstly because that is what Dante used. Secondly because I believe that f4.5 is or is very close to the sharpness sweet spot for this lens. I didnt ignore available light but I could not change it nor did I know what shutter speed Dante used.

By "ignoring" i simply meant that you most likely have been testing under different light conditions. Instead of similar apertures perhaps similar shuttertimes would tell us more.

[mrclark321]

Great shots Mike, I hope my crappy old 20D will be capable of such fine results. :)

Dan

[mrclark321]

I agree ... reading some 'stuff' posted here could lead the uninformed to think only USM is good enough to take a simple snapshot. A great lens is a great lens: sometimes we just need to get to know them and take the time to improve our craft.

Well said, you are so right!

[rklepper]

I agree totally. Most who complain about many lenses do so as they are trying to use it out of it's intended purpose.

[Anders Östberg]

It is a bit of a challenge to use this lens for action photography but with some tracking technique and pre-focusing it's doable... here's some hockey shots, the (lack of) sharpness has more to do with motion blur than focusing I think:

http://www.andersostberg.com/fotogalleri/albums/HaningeHockey_2006-02-01/JH5Q5744.jpg

http://www.andersostberg.com/fotogalleri/albums/HaningeHockey_2006-02-19/IMG_3366.jpg

http://www.andersostberg.com/fotogalleri/albums/HaningeHockey_2006-02-15/IMG_3261.jpg

[mebailey]

(That kid must be some "customer", looking at the expression on his face on shot #1).


Yea, he is. He gets his contempt for cameras from his mom...
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=140887

[PetKal]

Anders, that looks good. If the weather is not too bad tomorrow, I'll try to get some pigeon/seagull/duck in-flight shots using the "keg" on my 300D.....see what happens.?

[mebailey]

Anders, that looks good. If the weather is not too bad tomorrow, I'll try to get some pigeon/seagull/duck in-flight shots using the "keg" on my 300D.....see what happens.?

I see where this is going...

Should you choose to accept it.
Assignment MCMLXXII: Canon AE-1 with 500mm L IS + 250mm of extensions = Macro insect photos.

[PetKal]

I see where this is going...

Should you choose to accept it.
Assignment MCMLXXII: Canon AE-1 with 500mm L IS + 250mm of extensions = Macro insect photos.
:D :D

Mike, I have experimented with shots of chickadees using a 24 mm prime and some such. Shot macro bugs with EF-S 10-22, etc...Compared to that, this is nothing ;)

[RAitch]

The guy in red in that last picture looks like a NASCAR.
Mike, check out the front chain on some of those shots... looks like it even gets sharper... especially in the 2nd shot.

Good job.

Anders, as I've said before... hockey shots are hard enough as it is... being able to use the keg is a great justification!

[mebailey]

Mike, check out the front chain on some of those shots... looks like it even gets sharper... especially in the 2nd shot.


Yes, I agree and noticed that when I was doing the PS work. It is strange and I dont have an explaination for it. My son was coming toward me in most of the shots so if the 85L was behind in focusing the second chain would have been sharper. Right? It is probably just my less than perfect panning technique.

[mebailey]

FretNoMore - Awesome shots! Which body did you use?

[ronosmena]

that 85: is a sure SHARP SHOOTER! great shots!

[RAitch]

Well, there's mostly left to right movement.
The thing with focus points is they grab the part that's closest to the camera... as long as it crosses the AF sensor.
I also understand that in AI Servo that even if you have the center point locked, some bodies (I know 1D) will "pass off" to other focus points.
I remember seeing posts from somebody else doing hockey shots that was puzzled why AI Servo shots came out with the wrong skater in focus. In most cases, I think the in focus skater was closer and it seemed that the body was interpreting that as the main subject and switched focus points.

Maybe you could try again in one shot mode. Try to get a lock at a certain point to "pre focus" then get another lock on the following swing and snap the shot. I'd be interested to see how that compares here. I would guess One Shot would be hard to control, but I might be surprised.

Also, I read on some bodies, the first capture on AI Servo is sometimes "off" and later shots in a series have better focus locks. Did you burst those shots?

[Anders Östberg]

FretNoMore - Awesome shots! Which body did you use?
First shot - 1D Mark II
Shot 2 and 3 - 20D

Actually I wouldn't really recommend the 85L for this, I just wanted to try it to see how the lens works for moving targets. The 85/1.8 is a better choice for action and I have since switched back to that lens just because it's easier to use. It's possible though, and not as useless as some people will have you believe.

[ronosmena]

FretNoMore: great shots man! very crisp.....

[PetKal]

Not the best test for 85L AF speed, to shoot seagulls in flight, especially today when it was probably -20 deg C by the lake (windchill). The 300D's AI Servo AF was a limitation, as I expected and seen before with other lenses, definitely not the lens AF drive itself. Thus, nobody is getting any wiser here, I am afraid. If you wanna shoot birds in flight with the "keg", please go ahead but have a camera body with a more capable AF system.
These are very much enlarged JPG crops, straight outta camera.

[DavidEB]

MEBailey -- I agree with RAitch, the front chain in your swing pictures is in focus, the subject is just a tad blurred. I happen to be the hockey shooter he is referring to, and perhaps I can shed some light on AI-servo. See >>>this post<<< (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=117521) and the two it refers to.

the camera does indeed focus on the closest thing it can see within an active AF point. Several settings can alter this behavoir. First, it helps to use only the center AF point for this kind of shot. With all 45 selected, you will always end up focusing on the closest part of the image, not always what you want. Second, set custum function 17 to 0 to restrict the camera to use of a single AF point. With other CF-17 settings you'll be using a larger selection of AF points and be prone to the same problem. Third, and this may take you some trial-and-error to come to grips with, set CF-20 "AI-servo tracking sensitivity" to 1 (slow) or at most 2 (moderately slow). The normal (0) and fast settings (3-4) lead to this kind of problem.

the above CF settings are for 1D.

[RAitch]

Thanks for finding the post David... and you're right... I was talking about you (not knowing it).
Do you know if the CF you mention are in the 5D (for OP)?

[mebailey]

Well, there's mostly left to right movement.
The thing with focus points is they grab the part that's closest to the camera... as long as it crosses the AF sensor.
I also understand that in AI Servo that even if you have the center point locked, some bodies (I know 1D) will "pass off" to other focus points.
I remember seeing posts from somebody else doing hockey shots that was puzzled why AI Servo shots came out with the wrong skater in focus. In most cases, I think the in focus skater was closer and it seemed that the body was interpreting that as the main subject and switched focus points.

Maybe you could try again in one shot mode. Try to get a lock at a certain point to "pre focus" then get another lock on the following swing and snap the shot. I'd be interested to see how that compares here. I would guess One Shot would be hard to control, but I might be surprised.

Also, I read on some bodies, the first capture on AI Servo is sometimes "off" and later shots in a series have better focus locks. Did you burst those shots?

RAitch and David EB,
Thanks for your observations and input. I shot these in AI servo using the center point but also the six "hidden" assist points which are said to be within a circle at the center of the viewfinder of the 5D. It is possible if not likely that part of that circle was partially on the first chain. Like I said in the post, my technique is probably the most suspect here. I should have kept the circle totally on my son. If I try it again I may turn off the assist points and just use the center point. David, I dont think my 5D has sensitivity variation for the servo mode but I could be wrong. Thanks again for looking and imparting excellent information for me and others to benefit from.

[mebailey]

Not the best test for 85L AF speed, to shoot seagulls in flight, especially today when it was probably -20 deg C by the lake (windchill). The 300D's AI Servo AF was a limitation, as I expected and seen before with other lenses, definitely not the lens AF drive itself. Thus, nobody is getting any wiser here, I am afraid. If you wanna shoot birds in flight with the "keg", please go ahead but have a camera body with a more capable AF system.
These are very much enlarged JPG crops, straight outta camera.

Those are excellent shots! If we keep this up Canon is not going to sell one of those Mk IIs for $2100 :evil: . Seriously, thanks for your interest and contribution. Ive learned alot from the exercise and feedback....

[MDJAK]

What's next.....expanding the focal length of the EF 16-35 f2.8 because some owners have a difficulty shootin soarin bald eagles with it ?

You might be on to something there. If I only had an expanded 16-35whatever, I would have done much better on them bald eagles than my 300 f2.8 that day. Now you tell me.

Nice shots, everyone.

me

[MDJAK]

Oh, and poor-poor Dante's "bag" is now just a dusty empty mess. :)

me

[PetKal]

Nice walk down the memory lane, eh ?
So why don't you shoot them eagles with the 85L ?

[mebailey]

Nice walk down the memory lane, eh ?
So why don't you shoot them eagles with the 85L ?

I would if we had any eagles down here! Those were solid shots of those flying detritus ingesters (sea gulls) you took with the keg!!

[PetKal]

I would if we had any eagles down here! Those were solid shots of those flying detritus ingesters (sea gulls) you took with the keg!!

Your shots are excellent, Bailey.
I was really referring to MD Jakoff's constant whining about not having enough FL to shoot them eagles.