Request opinions on image problem

[monkey44]

This photo is a sample of the "Fuzzy Faces" message put up a few days ago. I'd like to know why most of this image seems clear, but the face appears "fuzzy". It's happened on other images of moving players too. Seems when I blow it up, the face looks distorted, but the rest very clear... any help here?? Thanks... B

Shot with D-30... Prog AE 1/350, 9.5, center metering, ISO 400 - RAW, w/ 100-400 IS at FL 100... One Shot AF

Link:
http://haskellct.com/EE_Galleries/Gallery1/webguests/FuzzyFace01.jpg

[J.A.F. Doorhof]

Hi,

Not much wrong with that shot.
I always use a bit of USM in a highlight layer.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~itc/fotos/fuzzy%20face.jpg

Working on the original it should work out better.

Greetings,
Frank

[martcol]

Go USM!

[Hyperfish]

monkey44 wrote:
This photo is a sample of the "Fuzzy Faces" message put up a few days ago. I'd like to know why most of this image seems clear, but the face appears "fuzzy". It's happened on other images of moving players too. Seems when I blow it up, the face looks distorted, but the rest very clear... any help here?? Thanks... B

Shot with D-30... Prog AE 1/350, 9.5, center metering, ISO 400 - RAW, w/ 100-400 IS at FL 100... One Shot AF

Link:
http://haskellct.com/EE_Galleries/Gallery1/webguests/FuzzyFace01.jpg

IMHO, the prob is NOT using AI servo for a moving subject.

BOTH subjects are moving, why not use AI servo?

[monkey44]

I do use AI servo sometimes...but on this one, I knew the runner was going to come home, and so I set up the shot to focus on home plate... it's probably better to shoot AI... That being said...

Why is the face fuzzy (distorted) and the rest clear and relatively sharp. When I blow this up and print it, the face looks like "elephant man", but the uniform etc., still remains clean and sharp -- my gut reaction is that the face is beyond the DofF, but I'm not a "tech trained" photographer and have just taught myself by reading and shooting... so I can't evaluate the shots as far as the technical difficulties.

These runners move so quickly and often unpredictably (a runner will go from third to home in four or five seconds) -- so that the camera must react quickly too.

But once the image is made, the evaluation should reveal whether the tech aspects are correct, or what is lacking or the settings less than optimal. Guess I feel unqualified to make those judgements and look to others with the tech training to help me here... Thanks

[who10]

I would also look next at AI-Servo.

I've been battling "OneShot" mode on moving objects for awhile now. Last night I took twenty shots of six different moving targets (f5.6 - f8 varying shutter speeds between 1/125 and 1/250) using a 24-70L set at 55mm, switching between OneShot and AI Servo.

I set C.Fn-04 AE/AF lock to 3 (to give me full control over starting and stopping AI Servo AF). Page 147 in the 10D manual. This way I would know exactly when Servo is trying to do its thing.

All of the Servo shots were crisp, all of the OneShot images were nearly in focus but slightly blurred.

Something to try out...

David

[RedShoesGirl]

monkey44 wrote:
I do use AI servo sometimes...but on this one, I knew the runner was going to come home, and so I set up the shot to focus on home plate... it's probably better to shoot AI... That being said...

Why is the face fuzzy (distorted) and the rest clear and relatively sharp. ...

I think the whole image is unsharp - and not something USM is going to fix. The face is distorted because the man is distorting it to some degree. His face is more in shadow - lighter/contrasty objects are going to "appear" sharper.

Sports guys distort their faces when doing their thing, whether it be sliding into home, pitching a fast ball (man, THOSE faces are strange!) or sailing over hurdles.

On top of the focusing thing, you also have the issue of how still are you holding the camera - or are you moving it just enough to fuzz the image?

I have done this on more than one occasion, prefocus on second base in anticipation of the double play, follow the runner and then not "stop" soon enough. Night games are the worst because of low light situations.

It also looks like this is a small portion of the original?

RSG

[Hyperfish]

monkey44 wrote:
I do use AI servo sometimes...but on this one, I knew the runner was going to come home, and so I set up the shot to focus on home plate... it's probably better to shoot AI... That being said...

Why is the face fuzzy (distorted) and the rest clear and relatively sharp. When I blow this up and print it, the face looks like "elephant man", but the uniform etc., still remains clean and sharp -- my gut reaction is that the face is beyond the DofF, but I'm not a "tech trained" photographer and have just taught myself by reading and shooting... so I can't evaluate the shots as far as the technical difficulties.

These runners move so quickly and often unpredictably (a runner will go from third to home in four or five seconds) -- so that the camera must react quickly too.

But once the image is made, the evaluation should reveal whether the tech aspects are correct, or what is lacking or the settings less than optimal. Guess I feel unqualified to make those judgements and look to others with the tech training to help me here... Thanks


Hi Monkey-

Again, this is just MHO-

1. I agree with RedShoesGirl, to me, the image is unsharp. Could be not using AI Servo on moving subjects, (80%) could be not panning at the right speed, (10%) could be some shake. (10%)

2. The common myth (at least for me) is fast shutter speeds overcome shake. Again, at least for me, they don't. (unless SS is above 1/2500)

3. Again, in my experience, I would have panned that shot at that shutter speed IF your main intented subject was the runner. He's moving, I would have kept my AF point planted on his face.

4. There is NO doubt I would have used AI Servo.

5. DOF isn't the problem in this shot. If t were ONLY an AI Servo prob, SOMETHING would have been crisp in the shot. Again, to my old, tired eyes on my monitor at that image size, I can't say I see anything crisp.

You wouldn't expect moving subjects to be crisp when they move AFTER AF locks, BUT the gound that's in the DOF area SHOULD have been crisp.

Since it's not, my guess is motion blur (did you pan or move the camera?) and/or the shakes.

Moving subject (coming towards me & to my left, simliar to your subject) AI Servo, plenty of DOF due to long distance to subject/focal length/aperture:
(1D, EF600mm f/4.0 + EF 1.4x @ 840mm 1/4000 wide open @ f/5.6)

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/hyperfish/E57C1939.jpg-Web-Small.jpg

FAST moving subject, close range, EXTREMELY shallow DOF, I was already behind the eyes when panning:
(1D, EF300mm f/2.8 1/2000 @ f/3.5)

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/hyperfish/E57C1438.jpg-Web-Small.jpg

Fairly slow moving subjects, semi deep DOF:
(1D, EF400mm f/2.8 MK II + EF 2x Extender @ 800mm 1/1600 wide open @ f/5.6)

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/hyperfish/E57C8380.jpg-Web-Small.jpg

I REALLY think AI Servo & panning the subject would have helped...

[monkey44]

RSG
[/quote]

[quote] I think the whole image is unsharp - and not something USM is going to fix. The face is distorted because the man is distorting it to some degree. His face is more in shadow - lighter/contrasty objects are going to "appear" sharper.

[quote] Sports guys distort their faces when doing their thing, whether it be sliding into home, pitching a fast ball (man, THOSE faces are strange!) or sailing over hurdles.

Yes, I agree, the man is distorting his face and you're correct about pitchers -- you should hear some of the comments the pitchers make when I shoot them in the delivery!!! But, the face appears even less sharp than the rest of the image too... so that's my dilema -- how do I correct that... If you shoot a clear face, but a blurred uniform, players are happy -- the contrary is not something they like...


[quote] On top of the focusing thing, you also have the issue of how still are you holding the camera - or are you moving it just enough to fuzz the image?

Shooting with 100-400 IS lens, which is designed to eliminate shake -- but, in general, I think I'm pretty steady....could be wrong, but I'm careful.

[quote] It also looks like this is a small portion of the original?

Correct, it's probably about a 1/2 crop.

When I read all this advice, I'll draw a conclusion and share for comments... you folks are very helpful...

[monkey44]

[qutoe]1. I agree with RedShoesGirl, to me, the image is unsharp. Could be not using AI Servo on moving subjects, (80%) could be not panning at the right speed, (10%) could be some shake. (10%)

[quote]2. The common myth (at least for me) is fast shutter speeds overcome shake. Again, at least for me, they don't. (unless SS is above 1/2500)

Shooting with IS 100-400, designed to eliminate shake and movement??? Does this lens work well in that regard? I've not have much problem with birds and other wildlife moving, just the face issue with people. Then again, the birds never complain ... lol...

[quote]3. Again, in my experience, I would have panned that shot at that shutter speed IF your main intented subject was the runner. He's moving, I would have kept my AF point planted on his face.

Will try the AI servo and panning the next game and let you know... hard to re-create the exact conditions too, which is a dilema as well. But I get clear face shots as often as not. That's why I believe it's something I'm doing that is inconsistent, and would like to ID that so I can correct it...

4. There is NO doubt I would have used AI Servo.

[quote]5. DOF isn't the problem in this shot. If t were ONLY an AI Servo prob, SOMETHING would have been crisp in the shot. Again, to my old, tired eyes on my monitor at that image size, I can't say I see anything crisp.

You wouldn't expect moving subjects to be crisp when they move AFTER AF locks, BUT the gound that's in the DOF area SHOULD have been crisp.

Since it's not, my guess is motion blur (did you pan or move the camera?) and/or the shakes.


Will try to be more conscious of self-movement... but again, I thought IS lens corrected that problem...

[Hyperfish]

Hi Monkey-

1. Regarding IS, yes, but it'snot a miracle worker. (IE: will REDUCE, not ELIMINATE shakes)

2. IS won't do a thing about SUBJECT movement, which is what your runner was doing.

3. IS on that lens takes a split second (or longer) to engage. If you squeezed the shot off before it engaged IS may actually have HURT the image vs. no IS.

4. Again, there is NO doubt in my mind you should have been in AI Servo for a moving subject. PERIOD.

If it moves, you NEED to be in AI Servo or you NEED to release & AF lock again. Since the subject is/was constantly on the move you will NOT get consistent focus without using AI Servo.

5. Are your bird shots static subjects? What SS/aperture/distance to subject/focal length?

6. If you are SOMETIMES getting crisp shots like that runner using One Shot it's pure luck. (no offense)

Read your manual, read Canon's documentation, EVERYTHING points to using AI Servo in EXACTLY that situation.

If you're handholding, get your shutter speeds up. Just because someone says they can get crisp handheld shots at 1/250 or 1/500 doesn;t mean it's a universal rule.

Stress, caffine, excitement, etc. can all affect one's ability to handhold AT THAT MOMENT, as can focal length, vibration in the stands from the crowd, etc...

Look at your EXIF on the shots you feel are crisp & see if there is a pattern. Odds are those shots have higher shutter speeds, were panned or the subject didn't move between AF lock & shutter release.

[monkey44]

Hyperfish -- thanks...

[quote]If it moves, you NEED to be in AI Servo or you NEED to release & AF lock again. Since the subject is/was constantly on the move you will NOT get consistent focus without using AI Servo.

Yes -- I do press and release as I follow the subject, but probably not as well as the AI... will try that at the next game...

[quote] Are your bird shots static subjects?

Yes, sometimes...but as often as not, they are moving and I track then in flight... Possibly birds are more predictable in flight -- and more often on a direct parallel plane re distance. Whereas the runners are often moving away from or toward the camera... and that seems a significant difference to me...

But what I'm getting from this feedback is critique on my technique, as opposed to critique on the tech aspects of the camera setting ... so that's what I needed.... I wanted to know if I was allowing the camera to create a less than perfect image by using settings that caused the fuzziness, or I am creating that less than perfect image due to my shooting technique, generally.

My best interpretation is that I'm not exactly focused directly on the moving subject or am moving the camera, or perhaps, and my guess is now this -- am punching the button before the camera adjusts to the new focus spot as I move with the subject...especially with One Shot AF ... and with this input from the forum, AI servo should eliminate at least that aspect of the problem ...

[Hyperfish]

Hi Monkey-

I think you're on the right track. Iwould:

1. Try AI Servo, check the shots & see how they are. If the D30 can't keep up, zone focus.

2. Try a monopod to reduce shakes.

3. Keep your SS high on moving subjects if your intent is to freeze theaction.

4. Pan with the subject

5. Don't be afraid to shoot wide open. (or 1/3 stopped down) At that distance you'll have plenty of DOF.

Good luck!