The power of BIGMA

[T.D.]

I finally got out this weekend and put the bigma to the test. I'm just learning its power, but wanted to post some shots that were amazing to me.

I took shots at 50, 100, 300 & 500.

See for yourself.

These first two are at 50 & 100. I'll do a new post with the 300 & 500.

[T.D.]

And 300 & 500.

[bolantej]

That's sick. I want one of these now. all you need is a TC and you can be a peeping tom. not that I'm condoning this kind of behoavior. ;)

[T.D.]

LOL!

That's next on my list (the TC, not the peeping tom gig!!)

[kimel]

That's pretty impressive. I gotta get me one of those!

[Tee Why]

Bigma is a beautiful thing. Just imagine, if you get a 2xTC, the thing is a 1000mm. On a cropped sensor, that's now a 1600mm. According to Sigma, using a TC forces you to MF, with no AF.

[cdifoto]

Definitely. Can't get to 500mm cheaper and with this quality.

[Rob612]

Bigma is a beautiful thing. Just imagine, if you get a 2xTC, the thing is a 1000mm. On a cropped sensor, that's now a 1600mm. According to Sigma, using a TC forces you to MF, with no AF.

No doubt, it would be an f/11 1000 mm, even the 1 series body cant handle that :)

[MiG82]

And 300 & 500.
Is that on a full frame body? Because there's fairly noticeable vignetting in the 500 mm shot. But that's a fantastic zoom range.

[Mitcon]

I'm certainly still in-love with my Bigma, hard to beat the value, focal range and IQ for anything near it's price. A very able lens indeed.

[T.D.]

Is that on a full frame body? Because there's fairly noticeable vignetting in the 500 mm shot. But that's a fantastic zoom range.

This is on my Digital Rebel XT (350D).

When I got home the shot at 500 was noticably underexposed. I'm not sure what I did wrong with it. I did an adjustment to the Raw file. Decided to post it anyway because it illustrates the point of the post even though it's not the greatest shot.

[Thordic]

Cool pics, thanks for sharing.

I just got my tax rebate (finally) so ordering my Bigma will be happening ASAP :)

[BrianEE93]

Cool pics, thanks for sharing.

I just got my tax rebate (finally) so ordering my Bigma will be happening ASAP :)

That is where my return went-right to Sigma4less!

[NYC2BGI]

Great post Turnerzdad. I am sure that the Sigma/Bigma company loves to see threads like this one showing how good their product is. Now it gives the rest of us, who never had even thought about it, a reason to consider getting this lens.

[cfcRebel]

These are great shots showing the difference at various FL. Congrats Turnerzdad! It produced these pictures on an overcast day. Imagine when it's sunny. :D

[cfcRebel]

I'm glad you did this test. Now i can see the 10X zoom result easier by adding a small red square. :)

[alexanderjba]

Bigma is a beautiful thing. Just imagine, if you get a 2xTC, the thing is a 1000mm. On a cropped sensor, that's now a 1600mm.

The 'framing' would be that of 1600mm (on a 1.6X cropped body @ 1000mm) but the actual distance wouldn't be 1600mm would it? I mean, a 100mm lens will be a 100mm with only a smaller "frame" - it won't magically turn into a 160mm lens. The magnification of a 100mm lens should be the same on a 20D as it is on a 5D, just already being cropped on the 20D... You won't gain more length out of using the same lens on the 20D, right?

[In2Photos]

The 'framing' would be that of 1600mm (on a 1.6X cropped body @ 1000mm) but the actual distance wouldn't be 1600mm would it? I mean, a 100mm lens will be a 100mm with only a smaller "frame" - it won't magically turn into a 160mm lens. The magnification of a 100mm lens should be the same on a 20D as it is on a 5D, just already being cropped on the 20D... You won't gain more length out of using the same lens on the 20D, right?

Correct. The original post should have said 1600mm FOV, or field of view.

[MiG82]

Well you pack 8.2 mega pixels into that cropped area. So your angular resolution is higher. So for almost all intents and purposes, your maginification is higher. However, perspective is the same as for an uncropped view because the subject distance is the same. And DOF will be as if you have a 1000 mm, because you do :)

[alexanderjba]

Right, but a 100mm lens doesn't magically turn into a 160, which is seemingly what most people tend to think when the "cropped/uncropped" discussion comes up... I saw a post the other day and someone was attempting to explain that the 17-40 L would be like a [roughly] 27-64, which is just not the case. Your FOV would be that of a 27mm lens on a FF camera, but you would still be "zoomed out/back" to the 17mm. Additionally, 64mm on a 5D would NOT look the same as 40mm on a 20D. I think most people just can't get this.

[cfcRebel]

I don't think people meant it that way (100mm lens turns into 160mm). It's just the final picture taken with 100mm on 20D looks like as if it was taken with a 160mm on FF body. Did i word it correctly?

[alexanderjba]

I get what you're saying, but for example...

Using a 100mm focal length, my 20D on a tripod would produce the same basic image as the same lense on my Rebel 2000 on the same tripod... The difference is that the "frame" of the picture or the FOV would be diminished with the 20D. This might make the printed image look like it was taken with a longer focal length, but in the Bigma's case, its not like the 1000mm end would look anything like a true 1600mm (if one existed).

[cfcRebel]

Ah, got it.;)

I guess it's mostly the "effective focal length" that people refer to because that is what appears in the viewfinder.

[alexanderjba]

Word,:D I only know this because I was quite confused by it when I first got my camera... a TON of test shots later and a bunch of math shone at least a little light on it... IMO - not so important at the wider end of lenses as on the shorter end... being that 17mm (on a 20D) would only give you a FOV of a FF 27mm... Gotta save up for that EF-S 10-22...:cool:

[cfcRebel]

Gotta save up for that EF-S 10-22...:cool:It's a fun lens. That's a way to get a distorted longhorn image when stand really close to it.:lol:

[Tee Why]

The 'framing' would be that of 1600mm (on a 1.6X cropped body @ 1000mm) but the actual distance wouldn't be 1600mm would it? I mean, a 100mm lens will be a 100mm with only a smaller "frame" - it won't magically turn into a 160mm lens. The magnification of a 100mm lens should be the same on a 20D as it is on a 5D, just already being cropped on the 20D... You won't gain more length out of using the same lens on the 20D, right?

If you get a 1600mm on a full frame and a 1000mm on a 1.6 crop camera and look at the images, it should look very similar. The field of view might be a bit different though. The image circle that lands on the sensor should be same, I think, but the cropped would only take the center portion. That to me is not magnification. Popular photography already did a test where they took a ff camera and a 20D and took the same shot at a very long focal length ( I think around 300mm or so) and when they cropped the FF shot to make the image about the same size, the image from the 20D was sharper.

[alexanderjba]

If you get a 1600mm on a full frame and a 1000mm on a 1.6 crop camera and look at the images, it should look very similar. The field of view might be a bit different though. The image circle that lands on the sensor should be same, I think, but the cropped would only take the center portion. That to me is not magnification. Popular photography already did a test where they took a ff camera and a 20D and took the same shot at a very long focal length ( I think around 300mm or so) and when they cropped the FF shot to make the image about the same size, the image from the 20D was sharper.

:rolleyes: Uhhh, no.

With a "hypothetical" 1600mm lens on a 5D and a 1000mm lens on a 20D, the images would be similar, have the same "field of view" - but different magnification, and different SIZE, as the sensor is smaller in the 20D by 1.6 times, the subject would be larger in the 5D (not just proportionally, but in reflected larger on the sensor).

As for both cameras using a 1000mm lens (the Bigma w/ attached TC) - the subject in each image would be the same size. The difference here is that the total image would be cropped on the 20D (by 1.6x) yielding the same FOV as a 1600mm lens... But would not really compare to a 1600mm lens on a FF camera, for the above mentioned reasons.

Its not just "take the focal length and multiply it by 1.6" - think of it more like a horse wearing blinders, that can only see a certain amount what you put in front of it. :cool: Again, IMO - more important at the wide end that at the long...

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Focal_Length_Multiplier_01.htm
(a little better explaination and a few pics to illustrate)

As for the 20D being sharper, I thought this was about focal lengths and cropped sensors?

[T.D.]

Wow, I never imagined that this thread would generate such great discussion. I am learning a lot here. The whole crop factor thing has been a mystery to me. I'm beginning to understand it a little now, thanks to everyone's comments.

Thanks everyone for your nice words.

I know it's almost cliche' to say it, but this forum is the BEST!

By the way, thanks cfcRebel for the red square. That really does an excellent job of highlighting things.

[alexanderjba]

Well said sir, I've learned more here than I would have actually working at a camera store (which I have - and trust me, the people here are MUCH more knowledgable than the coworkers I had)... I try to read the forum for at least a half-hour a day, just to pick up on little stuff I didn't even ever think of... Then I sit around for a half hour and make this face...:confused:

[MiG82]

As for the 20D being sharper, I thought this was about focal lengths and cropped sensors?

That's the whole point. I don't give a rat's arse what the projected image size is because the photo is what matters.
Imagine an 8.2 MP FF sensor and an 8.2 MP crop sensor. Now, there's a plane 1 km away and I want to resolve as much as I can (I want it sharp). So we choose lenses that let the plane fill the frame (or else we're wasting pixels). Holy moly!!! The full frame requires a lens 1.6x as long to get the same image!!!
If I use the little lens, the plane fills only 0.625 of the image (1/1.6) on the full frame which means I have less pixels covering the plane, hence less resolution when you crop in photoshop = bad.
I don't know WTF I was thinking when I said the perspective would be different, because it won't (only in the case of the same lens and foot zoom to compensate).

So, perspective is the same, pixels across the target (resolution) the same, target distance the same...focal length different by a factor of 1.6!
So,
Additionally, 64mm on a 5D would NOT look the same as 40mm on a 20D.
Yes it will, so you can take your rolling eyes with you.
Having said that, there is one aspect of the photo that cares about the projected image size - the DOF. The DOF will be different. That's all.

[Tee Why]

Ah you are right, the field of view from a 1600mm lens on a FF would be the same as a 1000mm lens on a 1.6 crop.
But my point was that an image on a cropped senor with a 1000mm will give you a magnification of a 1600mm on a FF sensor. And that it would be sharper than getting a 1000mm on a FF and cropping that down to what a 1.6 crop would look like. No?
http://bobatkins.com/photography/digital/canon_eos_5d_or_20d.html
The power of Bigma compels you! The power of Bigma compels you! The power of Bigma compels you!
:)

[MiG82]

A
But my point was that an image on a cropped senor with a 1000mm will give you a magnification of a 1600mm on a FF sensor. And that it would be sharper than getting a 1000mm on a FF and cropping that down to what a 1.6 crop would look like. No?

But but but... That's what I said, with justification as window dressing...

[alexanderjba]

Wow, pretty touchy about this huh... Well, I don't think there is any better way to explain it, but we'll use your scenario... An object 1km away, 2 cameras (say the 5D and the 20D)... Same lens, say for example, say 200mm... Now click on this link, http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Optical/Focal_Length_Multiplier_01.htm and compare the first 2 birds that you see... SAME size bird, different FOV... Yes, if both cameras had the same sensors, I would guess that the 20D would be sharper, but they don't so it's a moot point (unless there is a camera line out there thay I don't know about...). The point is that the magnification of the image is still the same.... So back to the original point, a 1000mm lens on the 20D would not come out to be a 1600mm anything... Except that it would give the FOV of a 1600mm... The focal lengths are the same, its the view that is different... Reread the attached link, then reread again...

[BigBlueDodge]

man, you guys really know how to sidetrack a post, huh. The cool thing about this site is that anyone can create a new topic to discuss things, such as FOV on crop vs FF sensor (hint hint). Can we get this back on topic?

[T.D.]

cfcRebel wrote: These are great shots showing the difference at various FL. Congrats Turnerzdad! It produced these pictures on an overcast day. Imagine when it's sunny.

Thanks cfc. You're right. It was overcast with not very great light. I'm excited to go back on a little better day.

[kimel]

Overcast in the Willamette Valley in March. Imagine that! ;)

I am continually amazed by the quality of the images folks are getting out of the Bigma. When I first saw this lens announced I scoffed and figured it would rather crapulent in nature. Wrong! I know what is on my birthday wish list this year!

[Tee Why]

man, you guys really know how to sidetrack a post, huh. The cool thing about this site is that anyone can create a new topic to discuss things, such as FOV on crop vs FF sensor (hint hint). Can we get this back on topic?
yes, funny how one can nick pick and side track/hijack a thread.
The power of bigma compes you!

[Lord_Malone]

I wouldn't mind owning this someday...

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=106&sort=7&cat=37&page=1

;)

[kross]

Hmm... i should probably drop the idea of getting a 500 f4 IS for this bigma and use the balance $ on a 1DMK2n....:lol:

[arunchs]

Geez! Thats great! Did I waste money on my 100-400L? :neutral:

[ScottE]

Geez! Thats great! Did I waste money on my 100-400L? :neutral:
The 100-400 is better if you hand-hold most of your shots because it has IS. Only get the 50-500 if you are a dedicated tripod user. Before I purchased I shot test film (pre-digital era) with both lenses and found the optical quality to be about the same. I chose the 50-500 because of the longer zoom range and I use a tripod for almost all my wildlife photography. There have been a few occasions when I had to shoot hand held and IS would have been usefull. There have been many more times when I had the lens cranked all the way out to 500.

Which lens is better depends on your style of shooting.

[cfcRebel]

Hmm... i should probably drop the idea of getting a 500 f4 IS for this bigma and use the balance $ on a 1DMK2n....:lol:Bigma + 1DMIIn ? OMG, you are talking about an inexpensive beast that can still AF after stacking a 1.4xTC. :D

[T.D.]

I'm still confused on the Bigma and a teleconverter. Can I or can I not use a TC with my dRebel XT? I keep reading conflicting information.

Thanks for any clarity you can provide.

[LightRules]

I'm still confused on the Bigma and a teleconverter. Can I or can I not use a TC with my dRebel XT? I keep reading conflicting information.

This may sound odd, but it depends on your particular body/bigma/tc. Theoretically it won't work (anything beyond f5.6 on a non-1 series body), but truth is stranger than fiction and some folks can get it to work, albeit contingent on plenty of light and contrast in subject. If you tape the 3 left pins on any non-Canon 1.4x TC, it should work on your XT, but again, you'll need plenty light and a tripod. IMO the IQ is acceptable if you have perfect conditions, exposure, etc., but for the most part, it's a tough combo to be truly satisfied with on a consistent basis. You're not going to get 1120mm FOV any cheaper (well maybe with a mirror lens), but it's not a combo I would consistently use myself. You might be better off simply cropping slightly during PP.

[ScottE]

You can use a teleconverter with the 50-500, but you will have to focus manually because AF will not work. You also lose 1 stop with a 1.4x and 2 stops with a 2x teleconvert, so the maximim aperture decreases from f/5.6 to f/8 with the 1.4x or f/11 with the 2x. (Actually the maximum aperture is f/6.3, but camera reads it as f/5.6. I have used the camera readings for the effect of the teleconverters.)

[T.D.]

Thanks fstopjojo and Scotte. That helps some. Have either of you actually used this combo?

[weka2000]

My bigma has a kento 300pro 2xTC tripod a must but good shoots of the moon. Manual focus but 1000mm or 1600mm on a 20D. You can see the crators and looks like rivers on the moons surface.

[ScottE]

Thanks fstopjojo and Scotte. That helps some. Have either of you actually used this combo?
I have used both 1.4x and 2x on my 20D. With the 1.4x the pictures are useable, but not exactly sharp. With the 2x it is very difficult to get a sharp picture. I have a few pictures where I used a tripod, mirror lock up and a remote release with the 2x of mountain goats on a distant cliff. They are not that great, but much better than no picture at all. I made 8.5" x 11" prints that did not look too bad, but I certainly would not enlarge them any more than that.

Without the teleconverter I have made 13" x 19" vertical crops from a horizontal picture that were much sharper than full frame 8.5 x 11 prints with a 2x. Any camera motion or vibration and atmospheric distortion become major factors when using a lens that long.

[weka2000]

A bigma and 2xTC is just good fun. The TC cost me $300NZ dont use it a lot but its always there.

[T.D.]

I couldn't help reviving this thread after seeing these elk this weekend. They were waaaay far away. No crop on these. Just a raw conversion out of the camera.

[cfcRebel]

Awwww..... you should have zigzag'ed, hidden behind the bush and sneaked up on them. :lol: Go get your camo wear.

[T.D.]

LOL! That's too funny!

Unfortunately, however, that area is closed due to being a Canada Goose wintering area (National Wildlife Refuge). As of this Sunday, it will be open again though!

[cfcRebel]

LOL! That's too funny!

Unfortunately, however, that area is closed due to being a Canada Goose wintering area (National Wildlife Refuge). As of this Sunday, it will be open again though!If the elks still hang out there, it would be a great place to shoot them because the brush makes great natural blinds.