Replacement for Pro 90

[caerwall]

I bought a Pro 90 IS in May 2001. Very happy with it even though it was a bit slow. Its good points far outweighed the bad points. Someone I loaned it to must have pushed the screen back to harshly so the image reversing function stopped working. Thought I had better get it repaired so I sent it to Canon who lost it. They have replaced it with a G5, but it is not the same - rangefinder, no image stabilising, only 4x optical zoom. I cannot understand why Canon have not upgraded this remarkable camera.

Once You have had the benefit of image stabilising nothing else will do as I now have found out just how shaky my hand is.

Since the Pro 90 I have bought a Nikon 5700 - No image stabilising and the menu system is atrocious. Also a Panasonic DMC-FZ1 - nice knockabout camera but even with 12x optical and image stabilisation it doesn't produce Pro90 quality shots (and it doesn't have the fold out screen). The replacement G5 cannot match it either (even with 5 megapixels). I am also lucky enough t have a 10D - it takes great pictures but it is a handful to lug around.

I have two questions:
1) Is there a cache of Pro90's in a warehouse somewhere where I can buy One?
2) Why oh why doesn't Canon upgade this machine? Has anyone a clue?

The G5 is basically an updated Pro90 in a different body without the beautiful 10x image stabilised lens. Consequently Canon must be keeping the basic R&D going even though the Pro90 is no more.

The only answer I can think of (they must have the technology) is that an upgraded Pro90 would run slap bang into the low end of the Digital SLR market. Perhaps they don't want to cruel their pitch by releasing an easily portable image stabilised camera that will be a head on competitor for their luggable line of SLR's.

On the other hand it looks like their rivals are starting to catch up (in everything bar the image stabilising).

A Pro100 with 10x optical, image stabilising, decent speed, manual zoom ring, a flash with a separate release button and the new 8Mp sensor would be match for anything on the market. Perhaps we should all be yelling for one!

[eland]

Hi
I bought a pro90 about the same time that you bought yours.
It still puzzles me why this camera was discontinued.
I'm on the lookout for a secondhand one as a backup.

I can make A3 prints from mine and am not inclined to look
for another type of camera.
I certainly wouldn't be pleased to be given a G5 for a pro90. It's not in the same league.

Manual zoom would be nice and the digital finder takes some
getting used to.
However it gives much more information than either an optical
or SLR finder. Seeing the image exactly as it will appear
is an excellent feature.

I don't know where in the world you are, but I believe that
the pro90 might still be on sale in England.
It was until recently anyway.
You might try some of the big camera shops there.

I'd be interested too.

Regards
eland
hal bruce

[caerwall]

I am in Australia

I paid AUD$2,400 for this camera and put a 1Gb microdrive in it. We went to Indonesia and I took over 800 photographs and had about 400 to spare!
The Pro90 takes very clear photographs even in poor light without flash.

I found the flash as a nuisance because if you had inadvertently left the flash "on" it would pop up rather violently shaking the camera when the shutter was released. It has no manual flash release button.
I also found that the flash metering was not particularly good but this could be improved by judicious fiddling with the flash compensation. Although it takes the Canon EX series flash units it is not a true ETTL and I did not persist with the use of flash on the camera and preferred available light as much as possible.

The controls are very easy and well laid out. Some have complained about the location of the Menu button and I noted first time users invariably switched the menu on within the first few seconds. I found it very easy to adapt to the positioning of this button.

Another little brilliance of the Pro90 was the internal focussing of the lens. At the one time it protects the lens workings from the elements, it provides a grip for the left hand to steady the instrument, it is a convenient and logical site for the button controls that Canon located there and finally and, most importantly, it doesn't spook the subjects. You get better response from subjects when they are not exposed to lens barrels moving obviously in and out. And what photographer sporting a long lens on his SLR has not noticed the reaction from everyone within 100 metres!
Internal focussing lenses in relatively short barrel is invaluable when you need your subjects to look natural.

But it was slow, slow, slow ... for all that I loved it and it gave me a new lease into photography. The camera made my work look better than my ability (good for the ego).

Canon must have been having trouble selling them in a market driven by "more megapixels=better" that does not understand the benefit of large optical zoom and even less understands what an image stabilised lens can do for your photography and your ego. That image stabilised lens really works.

I have now found this out to my cost having traipsed through a Nikon 5700, Panasonic DMC-FZ1 (nice fun "knockabout" camera but the megapixels are ponies compared to the Canon Megapixels, the camera software/electronics are not up to it and I am not sure of the effectiveness of "their" image stabilising), and now the G5 (the processing is good, 5 megapixels are "better" but the quality of the body is not up to the Pro90). The G5 and the 5700 are 5Mp cameras but they are fairly ordinary in low light and a tripod sort of defeats the purpose of the compact digital camera genre. The 5700 has the better body and zoom but there is a lot of muddled thinking in its design and the menu!!! (perhaps Nikon enthusiasts like to suffer, or part of the image of being a Nikonophile is the ability to manipulate the most esotoric combinations of menu settings before the eyes of adoring Nikon wannabees ). On the other hand Canon in the G5 have refined the Pro90 menu and controls and have come up with a much more simple and no less effective setup. With the Canon you can quickly learn and dispose of the manual, with the Nikon the manual must always be handy (or is it just me?).

Back to the Pro90 from my digression: I think that the Pro90 must have been expensive to make - it certainly looks and feels like a quality unit. The lens is good and when it failed to sell Canon Australia discounted out their remaining stock at AUD$1,600 each. I SHOULD have bought another one (or three).

I also noticed that well after the line had been discontinued in Australia it was still being advertised on Asian and US web sites for about the equivalence of AUD$1,600. I thought I didn't need one and if I did I would just buy the brilliant world-shattering replacement that would have fixed its shortcomings and at the same time extended its capabilities. However, waiting and waiting and not a peep from Canon. I advanced to a D60 and a "million" lenses. Brilliant stuff but I lost the "portability" of the Pro90 and there is no way you can wave a D60 around like using the flip out screen of the Pro90. Surprising how many ground level, waist level, overhead and even "over shoulder" shot opportunities are used when they are made "easy".

I sent my D60 off for a repair to the sensor and, as stated before, sent my Pro90 off for minor repair about a week later. Canon lost both of them. Proably a theft from the loading dock when being shipped back from repair. The Canon offer for the D60 was easy - the 10D virtually fixes all the small shortcomings of the D60 - brilliant. The G5 is a disappointment.

My dilemma is: do I hunt for a Pro90 - there is one on ebay at the moment in Michigan. All my scratching around the inernet seems to find is out-of-date sites last updated in 2001 but still offering Pro90's. The updated sites don't seem to have them any more. I have a "few" good cameras at the moment so although I am deprived of the utter brilliance of the Pro90 I am not exactly neglected.

Or do I keep waiting, waiting, waiting ... in the hope that Canon are really secretly working on something extraordinary?

Perhaps they will merge the low end of the 10D into fantabulous "Pro110" with replaceable image stabilised lenses and a flip out LCD screen! (and the new Sony 8Mp sensor) I am not asking for much but it would have to be the camera for every serious photography enthusiast. Frankly I would prefer to see the replacement with a fixed single stabilised lens in a similar body with a manual zoom control. 10x optical zoom is enough . There is a niche between highend digital still fairly portable and the low end Digital SLR - definitely not portable. Canon have the ability in my opinion to make a pro-level version of the Pro90. "Professional" photographers still have a reluctance to drop film cameras for digital. This is a form of snobbery that us advanced (read stupid) amateurs with too much money to burn on their hobby have seen past. But the big money and image still runs with the professionals. The bulk of the market and the volume still runs with people trying to replace their snapshot film camera with a digital version of the same thing. ie: more megapixels=better; pop art body (unthreatening and "easy"); cheap; and limited need for zoom. There are not enough users on the market who will pay the money that is necessary to make an upgraded Pro90 financially viable. It is a category caught between two stools.

Again I return to the problem that an upgraded Pro90 would be expensive to make and would seriously challenge Canon's own market in digital SLR's and lenses. Perhaps they are reluctant to do so for this reason. I wish they would let me know so that I would be able to seriously hunt down another Pro90 for my own use.

My speculation is that there HAS to be an upgraded product because that area of the market is being slowly infiltrated by other manufacturers. Only Panasonic has image stabilising but I note that Fuji are releasing an upgraded product that looks like what the upgraded Pro90 should look like with everything but image stabilising and flip out screen.

Perhaps if enough of us yell and jump up and down Canon will pay attention - I for one am ready to buy one ... "hey Canon - are you listening?".

In the meantime ... can you let me know which sites you think may still be worth trying to purchase a Pro90?

Tom Caldwell

[normc]

I share your feelings having looked long and hard for a Pro90 and finally got one on ebay. I also have the FZ1 and a Sony 717. As a suggestion, why don't you look for an OLympus C-2100UZ there are more of them available than Pro90's and it is an excellent camera and fun to use. I had the FL40 flash attachment which will zoom with the lens and a B300. I "think" it also exceeds the Pro90 in low light, no flash, situtations.

[caerwall]

Thanks Norm I will have a look at the Olympus. One of my original criteria was that I was going to stick to compact flash but I have already broken that resolve

Generally - is there a current reasonable accepted price for a good second hand Pro90?

Tom

[normc]

If you are a registered ebay user you can book mark an item for watching. Then go to your own ebay site and list the items you are watching. Right now I am watching about five Pro90's that are up for bidding and the prices. After the auction closes you get an idea of what the prices for Pro90's are. Of course, you have to use YOUR own judgement as to the seller and the condition of the item....and in the end there is a chance that it can be a bum deal? For myself I have met some very wonderful people on ebay and never made a bad deal.

Hope this helps? Shipping can at times be a problem?

[caerwall]

Thanks Norm I am on the verge of becoming an e-bay browser
Tom

[JpatrickB]

No need to look further for a Canon PRO90is. I have one for sale in perfect shape. No scratches or defects.
Used very little. I want to sell it because I need to get a smaller camera for 'digiscoping'.
It comes with two nearly new batteries ( one is a high capacity 1500 mAH ), a Canon haze filter, lens hood and 16MB flash Card ( new ). It also comes with the charger, USB cable and original manual and software. There are no known defects in this camera, it looks and operates as new. I am asking $525.00 + $15.00 shipping UPS 2nd day in USA ( lower 48 states ).

If interested, email: johnbradshaw3@cox.net
It will ship from Arizona.

[caerwall]

JpatrickB wrote:
No need to look further for a Canon PRO90is. I have one for sale in perfect shape. No scratches or defects.
Used very little. I want to sell it because I need to get a smaller camera for 'digiscoping'.
It comes with two nearly new batteries ( one is a high capacity 1500 mAH ), a Canon haze filter, lens hood and 16MB flash Card ( new ). It also comes with the charger, USB cable and original manual and software. There are no known defects in this camera, it looks and operates as new. I am asking $525.00 + $15.00 shipping UPS 2nd day in USA ( lower 48 states ).

If interested, email: johnbradshaw3@cox.net
It will ship from Arizona.

Thanks for your offer John - I have sent you an email
Tom

[Guillermo Freige]

I think the Pro90 replacement is now the 300D/Digital Rebel.
Ok, I know its lens is only 3x (18-55) and no IS, but if you add to the mix a 75-300 IS (or a 28-135 IS for better image but shorter tele) you will get a 16.6X zoom (or a 7.5 one) between the 2 lenses, stabilized where it matters (in the tele end) for $1500 aprox. And the image quality is way better than the Pro90.
Just my 2 cents.

PS: I have both IS lenses and plan to add the 300d in the near future (hopefully!!!)

[caerwall]

Keeping my ear to the ground - as we do. I have noticed that Sony are bringing out the DSC-F828 - expected to be shipping in November. 8Mp 7xoptical and mechanical zoom (AND compact flash no less). All good points and will be a very nice camera. US$1200 is a competitive anticipated price for such a high spec unit.

Pity no image stabilizing and just tilt the barrel instead of flip out screen.

Pretty close to my ideal but I thnk that I really want (need) an image stabilsed lens.

Canon are also bringing out a "cheap" 10D in the form of the EOS 300D at US$900 (for body only) seems like it might need special lenses if I read the article correctly.

This will make it hard for them to slot in a new "Pro 90" somewhere between the "G5" and the "300D".

Mind you that once you add an image stabilised lens to the "300D" you are again spending real money. And it is again in the "luggable" category.

In my opinion the Minolta A1 at "nearly 5 mp", 7xoptical and manual zoom is the closest thing to the Pro 90 coming on the market. The "anti-shake" mechanisim on the sensor should equivalence the "IS" of the Pro 90 and it has a form of limited movement of the viewing screen that has to be better than no movement at all.
Expected US$1200.

The Minolta has to be my pick of the prospective crop of Pro 90 emulators (even though it doesn't have internal focussing).

My ideal specs:
At least 5 mp (8 mp would be a dream)
10x optical zoom
Internal focussing manually operated lens
Fast lens
Fast warm up to image taking
Folding out screen - multi directional
SLR viewfinder
Logical controls (see G5 or FZ1)
Good handgrip (Pro 90 was just about perfect)
Compact flash storage (cheap high capacity)
Solid body (Magnesium feels nice)
Price - if it is good enough it is worth the money

I can't believe that Canon will sit around and be gazumped by the opposition. There is a gaping hole in their line-up of cameras between the G5 and the 10D.

Can we expect the 8 mp Pro110 by November to meet the challenge from the Sony DSC-F828 Mr Canon? This camera will give your EOS 300D heaps.

You will also need to better the Minolta A1 if you want to stay on top of the digicam technical heap.

The Fuji Fine Pix S5000Z is worth a mention. Nice professional looking camera and at US$499 seems reasonably priced for a 10x Optical zoom but from my experience the lack of image stabilising means that you will still have to lug the tripod for anything other than bright light shots at full zoom. (and it uses an xD card ... grrr). I can lose compact flash cards but even smaller ones have to stay in the camera - too easily lost. Contradiction of terms - leave the in the camera to avoid losing them so you have to have higher capacity - the higher capacity is either too expensive or not available).

Sorry for the rant, but I have spent a lot of money acquiring this level of knowledge so the least I can do is pass it on :)

[caerwall]

Guilliermo
I agree that price-wise the 300D is a viable alternative to the pro 90 I am lucky enough to have a 10D and this is one brilliant camera. There is no doubt that the "true" SLR body and high level professional lenses are hard to beat and although the Pro 90 was good it isn't that good. Nontheless as soon as you acquire a true SLR and a couple of lenses your oufit immediately goes from the "carry about" to the "luggable" category.

I have 2 image stabilised lenses 28-135IS and 100-400IS together with the 17-35 and 180 macro. The IS lenses work really well and I am most happy with the outfit excepting that I have to mount a special expedition whenever I take it out.

I also like the utility value of the rotating view-screen and that is the only other real disadvantage of the 10D (not having one).

I suppose that whet I am really saying is that I am not about to give up the 10D but I would also like a carry-about unit which had the high-level design and componentry of the Pro 90. A camera with great versatility and ability even if limited to the single lens.

I have come to this conclusion after "thrashing about" looking for a camera to replace the Pro 90.

The Nikon 5700 is nice but the menu is awful and controls not entirely logical. It doesn't perform well in low light and camera shake is a problem on full zoom.

The Canon G5 is about on par with the 5700. Camera shake is again a problem in low light and on zoom. The straight through viewfinder set up almost forces you to use the flip out screen. A flip out screen is great for non-conventional shots but a real pain for the normal conventional situations. Controls and menu are great on the Canon and Nikon could study this set up to their advantage.

The Panasonic FZ1 is a surprise packet. Reasonably cheap (the body feels it). 12x optical but only 2mp. Can be satisfactory but the results on full zoom and relatively low light are not so good. The colours are not always resolved accurately and contrast is a bit weak. Points to some deficiencies in their electronics I think.

But it is a fun knockabout camera that is easy to carry about and it does take good pictures as long as the conditions are not too extreme.

Of all my cameras (save the 10D) the FZ1 seems to have the most accurate flash metering.

My "baby" is a Sony DSC-U20. It goes everywhere with me on my belt like a second mobile phone. Fixed lens but it takes great 2mp pictures. Who needs a toy camera in their phone when you can have a real camera with your for little additional effort :)

Tom

[Guillermo Freige]

caerwell:
Probably you are right about the 300D about the "luggable" category, but if you keep only a lens (the 18-55 or the 28-135 for example) is almost as portable as the Pro90. The problem is once you have the option, is very difficult not to carry at least a couple of lenses :)
The 300D doesn't need any special lenses. Is exactly the opposite. The EF-S 18-55 only works in the 300D, but the camera can accept ANY EF-S (the 18-55 only for now) or regular EF lenses. So the only inexpensive option in Canon SLR world to have a 35mm film equivalent 28-45 coverture, is to buy the 300D with the lens (and at $100 the lens is really a bargain), because the alternative is the "inexpensive" 17-40 f4 L (at least compared to the 16-35 f2.8 L)

[caerwall]

Guillermo
I agree that the 300D is portable with a single lens. Unfortunately having the extemded battery pack on the 10D get addictive as it seems to go "for ever" with two batteries to draw upon. It is just horses for courses. The 10D is brilliant and the 300D will be a pretty good approximation and will make a lot of people happy. It will be a good introduction for them into the multiple lenses. Thanks for correcting me on the mistake over the lenses I can see that I misread the information.
Perhaps I should have insisted that Canon gave me a 300D in replacement of the lost Pro 90. An extra body would have given me the ability to keep the second body "stripped" to bare minimum and as portable as could be managed.

I suppose I wil just have ot see what transpires - camera offerings are improving daily.

I had a look at your gallery and like your photographs "La Plata". I would like to have a play with your image of the cathedral to see if I could take out the convergence problem. It is only an academic issue and I would naturally respect your copyright.

I live on the eastern seaboard of NSW Australia, but am scottish by birth. One of the benefits of photographic communication is the ability to see and get the feel of the many paces that you will never get the opportunity to visit.

Tom Caldwell

[Guillermo Freige]

Tom:
Feel free to do any manipulation of my pictures. I'll like to see the results, and also see some of your pictures. I'm having a lot of fun with my S50, is a wonderful camera once you get the trick, and very similar to use compared to the EOS 5 (and a lot more pocketable) :)
My previous "digital" experience was a Sony P1. Very frustrating (a lot of shutter lag, impresionistic colors, abysmal AF in low ligth and no MF) but it was very useful to make my first digital tests. Compared to it the S50 is the heaven, but image quality and AF can't be compared to the EOS 10D, or my film EOS 5, but to shoot digital is SO much easier than scanning and correcting film stripes (my scanner has no DigitalICE or other auto scratch removal techniques) so I'm using the S50 in RAW mode for all my pictures and the EOS 5 is semi retired. I'm expecting to change that situation with the 300D (I regretfully haven't enough money for a 10D and a 17-40 4L)

[caerwall]

Guillermo
If you send me your email address I will send a copy of the cathedral with a difference :)
caerwall69@hotmail.com
Tom

[caerwall]

Thought I had better note that I now have three Pro90's (strange). If Canon do upgrade the camera I can give these ones to my kids, if they don't I should be Pro90-ing for years. Godd insurance policy and two of them are in really good condition - the other one works fine but has been loved and used.

The man in the camera shop laughed when I said I had three ... but he had nothing to offer that could directly compete even two years down the track ...

... and don't start telling me about the "Rebel" - I already have a 10D and a literal truck load of lenses and other accessories. The Pro90 is a DIFFERENT camera they don't compare toe to toe.

The DSLR's do take better pictures if you are in the position to own one and can cart the gear around everywhere. The Pro90 is relatively cheap and relatively portable and powerful enough to take a "decent" shot. You are more likely to have it with you when the opportunity presents. Its more if it suits our style than absolute perfection of production.

The Minolta A1 seems to be getting the "Pro90" treatment from users - they love it and will buy it if it is cheap enough. No one seems to want to pay Minolta's asking price. This camera type must be expensive to develop and produce. If you compare it against the rest of the pack on one hand and a low-end DSLR on the other it seems dear, but for what you get it is cheap. Buy one now! - they are "cheap as chips". If Minolta has to discount this baby out and shut down its production line then this type of camera will only exist as a legend. No one is going to bother to make another.