Be nice to your fellow bird photographer's POSTS

[LazyPhotographer]

We finally got our Bird Forum!! Let's have a HUGE round of applause for Pekka and the Mods for taking care of us.

Now all WE have to do is take care of each other. Already the forum is jumping, there's lot of new posts but we still have people getting bumped to pages 3-4 without any comments. C'mon people, let's make this new forum a new beginning and a new chance to help each other.

Please take the time to comment on some posts BEFORE you post your new pics of the day. Bump the zero comment posts up to the top again and offer a comment, suggestion, or a bit of encouragement. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and remember how your first pics looked or the anticipation you felt with your first posts... it's important that we acknowledge and encourage each other, otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to post.

If everyone gets in the habit of doing this, soon there won't be any page 3-4 zero comment posts!! A few kind words, sharing the experience, and helpful suggestions can go a really long way. Show me the love, people... show me the love! :D


Mods: Can this be a sticky for a while pls?

[RonnF]

It was a terrific move to create a Bird Forum and I hope Pekka and the others responsible know how much it's appreciated.

And, MJ, I very much agree with your suggestion about eliminating the 0 comment posts. This is such a great place to learn about wildlife photography, and a lot can be learned from viewing postings and comments from others. But, as you said, when someone gets the courage to ask for comments and posts their own shots, it's discouraging to not rate a comment while they see their shot move to page 3. We should almost always be able to find something positive about a post and help soften the more critical comments. And when we have critical comments, we should also suggest how to fix or avoid the problem in future shots.

Ron

[forsakenme720]

I'm a noob and I have to say this is definitely a good idea. I know that if I posted my first pic and no one responded I would feel like crap, so I'm glad that comments are being encouraged:)

[calicokat]

We finally got our Bird Forum!! Let's have a HUGE round of applause for Pekka and the Mods for taking care of us.

Now all WE have to do is take care of each other. Already the forum is jumping, there's lot of new posts but we still have people getting bumped to pages 3-4 without any comments. C'mon people, let's make this new forum a new beginning and a new chance to help each other.

Please take the time to comment on some posts BEFORE you post your new pics of the day. Bump the zero comment posts up to the top again and offer a comment, suggestion, or a bit of encouragement. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and remember how your first pics looked or the anticipation you felt with your first posts... it's important that we acknowledge and encourage each other, otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to post.

If everyone gets in the habit of doing this, soon there won't be any page 3-4 zero comment posts!! A few kind words, sharing the experience, and helpful suggestions can go a really long way. Show me the love, people... show me the love! :D


Mods: Can this be a sticky for a while pls?

That is a great suggestion, I will do my part

[Maureen Souza]

Sounds fine with me, LP. I'll pass it along to the Senior Mods.

[Colin Morey]

may i request that sometimes comments of the negative, but constructive variety may be just as helpful?

ie, try to have the bird looking into space if possible,

so
|frame end| bird looking right, space to the right |frame end,

(if that makes sense?

[Blackburnian]

I agree but where's your birdie pic:D

[Colin Morey]

mine? first one in the new forum is Here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1363184)

[Scottes]

Definitely a great idea.

I have to stress Ron's post about comments and critique: Don't be afraid to ask for them! We've got a very friendly crew here willing to help, and there's a lot we can all learn from each other.

And for critiquers: be helpful, not harsh. Remember that we were all newbies once. Please don't offer criticism without offering pointers for improvement.

[dancinec]

I too agree with LF, sometimes I will search over the pages and look for zero responses and look for something positive to say and followed by some soft critique. Thanks Lazy Photographer for suggesting this.

[cfcRebel]

I like this idea. Let's start a policy - "No zero Bird post left behind". :D And no, i'm not a republican. LOL!

[Scottes]

I like this idea. Let's start a policy - "No zero Bird post left behind". :D
I'm in with that one!
(Check out the Sig)

[Cicarius]

I like It.

Great idea.

A comment as someone new. When I post I am often after the critical comments. I want to be told what i have done wrong.

So on the topic of posting. If you see something you would have done differently let me know.

I am loving this forum and this sort of thread is what makes it better then others.

Marty

P.S. check the sig. An idea for life.

[l bo]

This is great, with my new lens I find myself shooting more birds than anything else right now.

Well done

[Dimitri_V]

I totaly agree with everything anyone above said,i always do my best to comment to others (see my posts) but sometimes i see things like...a new person who has 2-3 posts,posts quite a few new topics and if he/she gets no replies then they bump it up asking why.
Well,as been said before by scottes,if you want to get into the game,make yourself known first by replying to others and then,after they know you,its guaranteed that you`ll get plenty of replies to your own post.
Especially some people that i have noticed,they don`t reply at all,they only expect comments from others.
Am i talking crazy?

[cfcRebel]

Especially some people that i have noticed,they don`t reply at all,they only expect comments from others.
Am i talking crazy?Nope, you're not talking crazy. I've noticed that too. Scott has really nailed it. Instead of saying something like "Awesome!" or "Nice shot", elaborate more what you like about the picture. On the flip side, if the picture is so so, or not to your liking, explain why don't you like it instead of ignoring it. There are two ways to tell someone you don't like their work. You can say it nicely, or brutally. Of course, everybody likes to be told nicely what they can improve. ;) So spend a few seconds to comment.

[Dimitri_V]

Nope, you're not talking crazy. I've noticed that too. Scott has really nailed it. Instead of saying something like "Awesome!" or "Nice shot", elaborate more what you like about the picture. On the flip side, if the picture is so so, or not to your liking, explain why don't you like it instead of ignoring it. There are two ways to tell someone you don't like their work. You can say it nicely, or brutally. Of course, everybody likes to be told nicely what they can improve. ;) So spend a few seconds to comment.

I do agree,entirely,but i`m talking about the ones who very rarely comment and still expect others to comment on their posts,its not nice rebel,is it?
I`ve got over 4.600 replies and my own posts are under 100 (apr),the rest are replies and comments to others,and yet,97% of the replies to my own posts are people who know me,just like you.
Scottes gave some very good recomendations here... (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=151052)but i don`t think that the new ones (most of them) are interested in reading them.

[Colin Morey]

thanks for the link dv2004, I hadn't seen it, (been out for a fortnight, and missed the introduction of this forum,) perhaps it can be duplicated into this forum?

[tommykjensen]

Nope, you're not talking crazy. I've noticed that too. Scott has really nailed it. Instead of saying something like "Awesome!" or "Nice shot", elaborate more what you like about the picture. On the flip side, if the picture is so so, or not to your liking, explain why don't you like it instead of ignoring it. There are two ways to tell someone you don't like their work. You can say it nicely, or brutally. Of course, everybody likes to be told nicely what they can improve. ;) So spend a few seconds to comment.

I must say I am guilty as I often on photos I like just say "Awesome", "Nice photo" or variations of that. Often I really can't put my finger on anything specific I like about the photo so it is difficult to elaborate on why I like it.

Also I actually don't see anything wrong in short comments as long as it is not said 1000 times regardless of the photo.

Usually I only post comments when I like the photo. I often find it difficult to explain what I don't like about a specific photo. I know we don't need to be experts in order to comment on photos but it is still hard to give negative constructive critique if You know it could have been Yourself doing the same mistakes.

[Dimitri_V]

I must say I am guilty as I often on photos I like just say "Awesome", "Nice photo" or variations of that. Often I really can't put my finger on anything specific I like about the photo so it is difficult to elaborate on why I like it.

Also I actually don't see anything wrong in short comments as long as it is not said 1000 times regardless of the photo.

Usually I only post comments when I like the photo. I often find it difficult to explain what I don't like about a specific photo. I know we don't need to be experts in order to comment on photos but it is still hard to give negative constructive critique if You know it could have been Yourself doing the same mistakes.

If there is something that doesn`t stick with the picture,just say whats on your head in a nice manner,and tell the person not to take it as an offence.
Most of the times i prefer to have some negative comments (if any) cause thats the ones you learn from.
And if you want to ask a question but you think it might sound daft,just ask,because there is not such thing as a daft question,only a daft answer.
I assure you,the more you reply to others and get yourself known,the more people will reply to your posts.

[Dimitri_V]

thanks for the link dv2004, I hadn't seen it, (been out for a fortnight, and missed the introduction of this forum,) perhaps it can be duplicated into this forum?

I`ll try to contact the moderators and see what i can do.

[jopfin]

Not that I don't like bird photos, I am just not very good at it. But I think the forum should be "Avian" and not "Birds".....................Joe

[Kevin]

All of you are right on with your comments and suggestions. I personally have posted many photo's with very few responses. However, when I check my photo listing I find that maybe 100 or more people have downloaded my photo. So if my photo is not worth commenting on then why do so many people download it? Good question. Thanks LazyPhotographer for starting this thread and pointing out the benefits of posting.

[Scottes]

However, when I check my photo listing I find that maybe 100 or more people have downloaded my photo. So if my photo is not worth commenting on then why do so many people download it?
Not everyone who can view it can post a comment. We have lots of visitors who log in, many more than the registered users.

As I'm typing this:
Currently Active Users (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/online.php): 1478 (427 members and 1051 guests)
So less than 1/3 of the people currently logged on can post comments.


Still, this means that about 30 people viewed your photo and didn't comment. If this happens, ask something! If you just post an image people will generally not critique it, but if you ask for some critique that opens the door and someone will generally say something about the image - maybe why they didn't like it, or how it could be better.

[Mike_B]

I'm so pleased to see a bird thread. It will be my first port of call now. Thanks for starting it and also agree with the 0 responses.

Cheers

[PacAce]

All of you are right on with your comments and suggestions. I personally have posted many photo's with very few responses. However, when I check my photo listing I find that maybe 100 or more people have downloaded my photo. So if my photo is not worth commenting on then why do so many people download it? Good question. Thanks LazyPhotographer for starting this thread and pointing out the benefits of posting.
I'm sure most of those "downloads" are not intentional downloads. In order for people to view your images, the browser has to download the images to the computer.

[Kevin]

Not everyone who can view it can post a comment. We have lots of visitors who log in, many more than the registered users.

As I'm typing this:

Quote:
Currently Active Users (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/online.php): 1478 (427 members and 1051 guests)
So less than 1/3 of the people currently logged on can post comments.


Still, this means that about 30 people viewed your photo and didn't comment. If this happens, ask something! If you just post an image people will generally not critique it, but if you ask for some critique that opens the door and someone will generally say something about the image - maybe why they didn't like it, or how it could be better.

I'm sure most of those "downloads" are not intentional downloads. In order for people to view your images, the browser has to download the images to the computer.


I completely agree with and understand both of your comments. I am by no means trying to stir things up. PacAce, I also download to view the meta-data and I do understand browser to image relationships.
Thanks again.

[RJSorensen]

As many of you know, I am an expert on birds. Small or "little birds" being perhaps my most shining point, of a very sharp repertoire of bird knowledge and tips on and or regarding same. You can count on my upmost support Lazy.

[swapnali]

Great to have a Bird forum. few days back, in some other post I was saying that we should have some dictionary /look book kind of thing for helping identify the birds. This forum will help to reduce the search criteria.

[blonde]

just wanted to say thanks to all the people that created this forum as well as all the other members. also, i honestly think that critique (good or bad) is what helps us all become better at what we do. i just started shooting like 7 months ago and with the help of other members, i can see myself improving with each day. most of what i learned came from people telling me what i did WRONG in my previous pics but they did it in a great friendly way. if you say something like "i don't like this picture because the crop is too tight or the exposure is a off" than i know what i did wrong and try to work on it. however, if you say "this picture sucks" than you are just an idiot.

i will try to comment on most threads with either good or bad feedback but i will always offer my opinion in a nice way :)

[calicokat]

It would be nice if all the forums had such nice people as the bird forum. There are alot of posts that get no responses. If people are taking the time to post their photos, and you view them, take the time to say something nice or offer contructive critizism to help them out for the future. Just don't let their posts die with ZERO responses. Kinda rude if you ask me :evil:

[tommykjensen]

It would be nice if all the forums had such nice people as the bird forum. There are alot of posts that get no responses. If people are taking the time to post their photos, and you view them, take the time to say something nice or offer contructive critizism to help them out for the future. Just don't let their posts die with ZERO responses. Kinda rude if you ask me :evil:

Well I have to disagree it is not rude to not respond. Nobody can respond to every thread they view. That is impossible. Even for CDS!

[calicokat]

Well I have to disagree it is not rude to not respond. Nobody can respond to every thread they view. That is impossible. Even for CDS!

I agree, it was wrong to say that. But for a photo to get 100+ views and no responses is not right.

[superdiver]

Who is CDS?

How often does a photo get 100 views and no responses?

[tommykjensen]

Who is CDS?


CyberDyneSystems (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/member.php?u=8486), look at his post count and You will understand ;-)


How often does a photo get 100 views and no responses?

Not many but it happens.

[Marsha050]

Would someone please help me identify this bird. I took the picture in Africa last year and didnt write the name of it in my journal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v153/Marsha050/Africa/IMG_3663cropped.jpg

[ClareH]

Hello to everyone,
I also am in agreement about 0 comments.
As a newbie I find that posting your exif is a valuable learning tool all round.....while some people always do, a lot don't so here is my suggestion...."POST EXIF"
All the Best :)
Clare

[cfcRebel]

As a newbie I find that posting your exif is a valuable learning tool all round.....while some people always do, a lot don't so here is my suggestion...."POST EXIF"
Ok, just added that into my Sig.:lol:

[superdiver]

I am going to post a picture mostly to see if my exif is embeded or not. How does one embed the exif if it isnt already there? Or is it easier to copy and paist it?

http://superdiver.smugmug.com/photos/69254656-L.jpg

[dancinec]

I am going to post a picture mostly to see if my exif is embeded or not. How does one embed the exif if it isnt already there? Or is it easier to copy and paist it?

If you save it from Photoshop by using "save as...jpg, it will be embedded in the file, if you save "Save for the Web" Photoshop will strip in out to save on file size (15k).

[billycan]

Marsha050,

That looks like the Crimson-Breasted Shrike

[superdiver]

My sequence is take in RAW, PP in DPP, batch process to jpeg, crop and save in photostudio 5.0 and the run through neat image.

Somewhere along the line, and possibly in a couple of spots, the exif is removed. what should I do differently?

[LazyPhotographer]

Here's a link to a handy-dandy browser plugin. When you right click an image, then select View EXIF you'll see everything about the image *if* it was saved when post processed. It's very cool...

http://ak.no-ip.com/EXIF/index_en.htm

[frankdatank]

Well said Lazy, good to see you here too!!

[superdiver]

My EXIF shows up when I upload to smugmug, but when I link it over here it doesnt...am I doing something wrong?

[jack lumber]

I like this idea. Let's start a policy - "No zero Bird post left behind". :D And no, i'm not a republican. LOL!


O,,r we could say "No Tern left unstoned,grins"lol

[ClareH]

[quote=LazyPhotographer]We finally got our Bird Forum!! Let's have a HUGE round of applause for Pekka and the Mods for taking care of us.

Now all WE have to do is take care of each other. Already the forum is jumping, there's lot of new posts but we still have people getting bumped to pages 3-4 without any comments. C'mon people, let's make this new forum a new beginning and a new chance to help each other.

Please take the time to comment on some posts BEFORE you post your new pics of the day. Bump the zero comment posts up to the top again and offer a comment, suggestion, or a bit of encouragement. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and remember how your first pics looked or the anticipation you felt with your first posts... it's important that we acknowledge and encourage each other, otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to post.

If everyone gets in the habit of doing this, soon there won't be any page 3-4 zero comment posts!! A few kind words, sharing the experience, and helpful suggestions can go a really long way. Show me the love, people... show me the love! :D

Hi Guys,
we are slipping up..........page 4 at the moment has 2 new threads with ZERO comments, page 3 has 3 new threads with ZERO comments and page 2 has 1.

All the Best,
Clare:D

[Helentbis]

This is a great addition to an extremely well run forum - potn.

I must stress though, aside from the positive comments, I welcome criticism of my pics, and absolutely want suggestions on how I can improve them. Don't worry, I have a thick skin ;)

Regards

[canonloader]

This is the second thread I read in the Birds forum, even before I joined. I got to say this out loud. It's about time more people read this. Let's review...

Now all WE have to do is take care of each other. Already the forum is jumping, there's lot of new posts but we still have people getting bumped to pages 3-4 without any comments. C'mon people, let's make this new forum a new beginning and a new chance to help each other.

Please take the time to comment on some posts BEFORE you post your new pics of the day. Bump the zero comment posts up to the top again and offer a comment, suggestion, or a bit of encouragement. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and remember how your first pics looked or the anticipation you felt with your first posts... it's important that we acknowledge and encourage each other, otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to post. :p

[tkoutdoor]

Sounds fine with me, LP. I'll pass it along to the Senior Mods.

Maureen,

Fantastic Avatar pic. You've captured attitude not just a face. Very nice!

Tim

[tkoutdoor]

Here's a link to a handy-dandy browser plugin. When you right click an image, then select View EXIF you'll see everything about the image *if* it was saved when post processed. It's very cool...

http://ak.no-ip.com/EXIF/index_en.htm

Your link seems to be dead or something along those lines. When I view it my browser tells me it is "done", but there is nothing on screen. It takes a long time to achieve "done" status as well.

Tim

[canonloader]

Tem, yes, I had the link in my footer for a long time, then noticed the site was always 404, so I took it down. PM, if you want a copy.

[gymell]

I use Opanda Exif and the Firefox plugin. http://www.opanda.com/en/iexif/. Now if everyone would just include EXIF with their photos - it helps immensely when others want to make comments!

[Flo]

I use Opanda Exif and the Firefox plugin. http://www.opanda.com/en/iexif/. Now if everyone would just include EXIF with their photos - it helps immensely when others want to make comments!
Thanks for that link!

[sonic72]

being honest this site seems very 'clique'.i know i should post more comments on peoples photos but i get up for work at 004 and get home at 1900,its a long day.
yes most of my photos are pretty poor compared to the majority that live in america(you have better light)
but i try to post photos of birds that are different to the usual herons and eagles etc,and be honest the main species range is not that great.

though the people that post small stuff(tits,warblers,finches etc) do a great job and work hard to get the shots,big stuff is too easy.

sorry for the moan

[gymell]

being honest this site seems very 'clique'.i know i should post more comments on peoples photos but i get up for work at 004 and get home at 1900,its a long day.
yes most of my photos are pretty poor compared to the majority that live in america(you have better light)
but i try to post photos of birds that are different to the usual herons and eagles etc,and be honest the main species range is not that great.

though the people that post small stuff(tits,warblers,finches etc) do a great job and work hard to get the shots,big stuff is too easy.

sorry for the moan

Odd, I just did a search on the threads you've started and you've gotten some nice comments ... and I must disagree with your comment that big stuff is easy! ;)

[sonic72]

sorry about my last post here,just frustrated with the crap weather in the uk at the moment,i have 2 weeks off work and was hoping to get some good shots.

oh well

[HWP]

This is the second thread I read in the Birds forum, even before I joined. I got to say this out loud. It's about time more people read this. Let's review...

:p

Now all WE have to do is take care of each other. Already the forum is jumping, there's lot of new posts but we still have people getting bumped to pages 3-4 without any comments. C'mon people, let's make this new forum a new beginning and a new chance to help each other.

Please take the time to comment on some posts BEFORE you post your new pics of the day. Bump the zero comment posts up to the top again and offer a comment, suggestion, or a bit of encouragement. Put yourself in the other person's shoes and remember how your first pics looked or the anticipation you felt with your first posts... it's important that we acknowledge and encourage each other, otherwise, there's no reason for anyone to post.





Somehow we need to find away to get people posting on the bird forum to read these common sense posting ettiquete guidelines. I don't know how to do that. Kudo's to Lazy_Photographer who came up with these. They make a lot of sense and if followed everyone can get something out of this site. I see from previous threads that things have gotten out of control before and it is again out of control. I know I've been guilty of straying from the guidelines and looking at this thread was a good reminder for me. I've made it a point to search out the posts that have zero or limited feedback and leave some words... that's when I have time to get on line. Many posts are getting through with no feedback and I'm sure I'm going to miss some of those. I wish more people would review. The words Mitch has highlighted in bold are the key to full enjoyment of this site.

Henry

[canonloader]

I don't get it. How can a thread have zero or 1 replies and 89 views? Theres something to be said for even a bad picture. If you clicked, it's not that hard to leave a quick reply.

Is it?

[HWP]

I don't get it. How can a thread have zero or 1 replies and 89 views? Theres something to be said for even a bad picture. If you clicked, it's not that hard to leave a quick reply.

Is it?


Excellent point Mitch.

Maybe a moderator could post a reminder and refer to this thread. When i first saw the title of this thread I thought it had to do with being nice to the photog's you see in the field. Since I never see any I never looked at this thread until recently.

Moderator? What do you think?

Henry

[LazyPhotographer]

I haven't been nearly as active on the forum for quite a while now, as compared to when I wrote the original post. But I think that's actually gonna change soon.

For what it's worth, when I get a chance to spend more than 2 minutes here, to start at page 4 or 5 and work backwards looking for the low/no posts. Hopefully, other people will do the same and spread the love. ;-)

Another good practice is to let 5 or 6 replies to your OWN post accumulate before you start with the thanks and such replies back. That really does help keep posts from falling too far behind.

[LazyPhotographer]

BTW - we changed the title. No excuses anymore!

[Stormin_24]

For one thing, I thank you and all involved for starting the bird forum... I mean what would this forum/world be like without God's creatures flying around.... My favorite topic afterall..

[Keith R]

I don't get it. How can a thread have zero or 1 replies and 89 views? Theres something to be said for even a bad picture. If you clicked, it's not that hard to leave a quick reply.

Is it?

Yeah, but Mitch, if the picture really is underwhelming (or worse) what are we supposed to say?

This is an honest question.

Fair enough if the person posting is actively seeking critique and advice on what they realise is a picture that could be improved; but sometimes we see images which (with the best will in the world) are very poor, and with nothing but "I took this yesterday..." or similar by way of information about the shot.

What do we say then? "Thanks for posting"?

If I'm honest, I'm not really that thankful.

And it might well be that unsolicited constructive criticism is unwelcome.

Sometimes then, it's best to take the line that if you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all...

I'm not being arrogant or elitist here (I'm under no illusions about my own limited abilities) I just don't see what benefit there is for anyone, in posting niceties. "Damning with faint praise" comes to mind, I'm afraid.

[canonloader]

Some of those shots are taken and posted by little kids that screwed up their courage to brave the snide comments and such that are found in a lot of other forums. But like I said, something can be said of any image, even if it's non-commital. ;)

You could just say, Looks like it was taken in bad lighting conditions, what is it? ;)

BTW, have you seen the last known image of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker taken with a wooden camera out in the jungle and hand developed? :lol:

[gymell]

I think people who are posting and not receiving comments need to realize it's a two way street. They have a responsibility to ask questions or give more information so that the rest of us don't have to guess at what type of response they are looking for. If someone posts a photo that in itself isn't all that exciting or technically interesting, and doesn't ask specific questions about how it could be improved, or offer something about the background of the photo, then why is the burden solely on everyone else to come up with something to say? I simply can't think of something to say for every single photo that's out there. I try to respond to photos that I think are great, those which might not be great but have an interesting story, or those which are looking for information that I think I can contribute to, whether that's from a photographic standpoint or a question about birds ID, behavior, etc. I also do my best to reciprocate comments for people who have commented on my photos. The learning process has to start with the poster wanting to share and/or learn. You get out of it what you put into it. I'm not going to go around posting "Great shot!" on every single thread just to say I commented. I want my comments to mean something.

[BradM]

Yeah, but Mitch, if the picture really is underwhelming (or worse) what are we supposed to say?

This is an honest question.

Fair enough if the person posting is actively seeking critique and advice on what they realise is a picture that could be improved; but sometimes we see images which (with the best will in the world) are very poor, and with nothing but "I took this yesterday..." or similar by way of information about the shot.

What do we say then? "Thanks for posting"?

If I'm honest, I'm not really that thankful.

And it might well be that unsolicited constructive criticism is unwelcome.

Sometimes then, it's best to take the line that if you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all...

I'm not being arrogant or elitist here (I'm under no illusions about my own limited abilities) I just don't see what benefit there is for anyone, in posting niceties. "Damning with faint praise" comes to mind, I'm afraid.

Well I try (in my limited time) to try to make some comments on possible solutions on those images that maybe in need of improvement. Even without exif data it is possible to say "I think I might have tried using some EC to bring the exposure to bring the shot up" or some such. It is often quite easy to have some kind of tips, setting choice or even pov change that could improve the images presentation.

And while this forum isn't truly a place for critical comments; any who post here should expect to see some constructive criticsm on occasion. The intent isn't to denigrate an individuals skills or abilities but to try to improve those skills. And in my limited time here it is clear that some take these comments to heart and have rapidly improved their skills with their images improving considerably. Though there are other that have not and are still posting the oof headless shots.

The tough part for me are those shots that to my eye lacking a bit that garner a lot of nice shot comments, and then to try to add a some criticism to assist in improving the image. In one instance I recieved a pm listing the positive remarks I followed when I posted some setting choices I might have tried to get a better image and the comment "I will go with the majority" in the opinion of the images quality. I don't blame the poster for the attitude, it was reinforced by the comments recieved. But to my thinking it didn't do the photographer any justice and only encouraged the taking and posting of what I would consider a marginal image.

Anyway, tough road to walk the centerline of trying to help and not irritate but I will continue to try. Helps me practice that "tact" thing, not a strong suit most times. ;)

[canonloader]

I never did see it as good image, bad image, but what I got from it. Imagine if all those old civil war glass plates had been smashed cause the shot was a little grainy.

It's not about me viewing the image, it's about the poster showing his image, everybody deserves their 15 minutes of fame.

If you need an explanation, think about it as paying off your Kharma. ;)

[chuckhas]

I'm with you! This is my very first time at this forum - I just checked your site and your photos are awesome!
I'm just getting started - bought myself a Canon S5 w/telephoto lens and I am excited to get started!


The Rookie

[canonloader]

Well, good luck. I have seen some absolutely amazing bird images from our bird members shot with the S2 and S3. They are great cameras. My first tip about shooting birds is get closer. :)

[cfcRebel]

I learned my lesson here on Birds forum the hard way :). It took me a long time to really accept that this forum is a "Sharing Forum" primarily. Posters have the option to ask for critique and comment but it is not appropriate to share what i have learned with every poster even though when i see they could benefit from it. At least that's my impression.

I agree with what Keith and Liz mentioned above. Too many times i burned myself by critiqing some images that someone posted but the person took it quite seriously because he/she just wanted to share and nothing more. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the poster is at fault, but it is rather confusing for fellow members to know what to expect when posting or commenting, on Birds forum at least. Unfortunately, IMHO, this trend is on the rise. That's why you hardly see any constructive criticism on Birds forum. You see almost solely "Nice shot" replies or lack of reply, as mentioned in this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=411966). On the other hand, i have seen so many forum members who are new to bird photography are desperately looking for helpful information too and decided to post images on this Sharing forum rather than the Critique & Comment forum. However, they didn't know Birds forum is literally a "Sharing" forum. I think it is unfair to expect every newbie to automatically include the "C & C welcome" phrase when they start a new thread. So, what could we do to minimize, if not eliminate, such confusion and misunderstanding? I looked at the purpose of the "Image Editing OK" flag under your avatar. I guess it must have been a similar case of whether or not one is allowed to share photography knowledge by editing the OP's image to get the message across. It must be difficult to tell who doesn't mind and who minds their image being edited, even though for the better. Hence we have the Image Editing Ok checkbox (purely my guesstimate, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong) in the User CP section.

So, i suggested maybe we could do the same for "Critique & Comment Welcome" flag (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198274). That way, no more confusion between both groups of people (those who just want to share, nothing more, plus those who want to learn by seeking critiques). Everybody happy :).

[gymell]

Critiquing a photo takes a lot of effort. So I think if someone truly wants their photo critiqued, they need to be the first to put forth that effort. The phrase "C&C welcome" is becoming cliche almost to the point of being meaningless. I think there's more to be learned by a poster telling us what they were trying to accomplish with the photo technically and/or compositionally, and asking specific questions related to that. Instead of asking general questions like "how can I make this photo better" or "what did I do wrong", tell us what you think can be better, or what you think is wrong, etc. and get the discussion started! That type of post makes it obvious that the person is interested in true constructive criticism. Otherwise, it's more likely they're interested in simply sharing, nothing wrong with that either.

[enjoy]

Some of those shots are taken and posted by little kids that screwed up their courage to brave the snide comments and such that are found in a lot of other forums. But like I said, something can be said of any image, even if it's non-commital.

You could just say, Looks like it was taken in bad lighting conditions, what is it?

Hey Mitch, I agree with you about the shots taken by the Kids. But ultimately every one here is to learn and in my opinion they can only learn if there is a proper critique to the pic.
Like if I don't like a pic then why I don't like.
This may improve a photographers perspective and push him a little more towards absoluteness. :)

Nagesh

[enjoy]

Critiquing a photo takes a lot of effort. So I think if someone truly wants their photo critiqued, they need to be the first to put forth that effort. The phrase "C&C welcome" is becoming cliche almost to the point of being meaningless. I think there's more to be learned by a poster telling us what they were trying to accomplish with the photo technically and/or compositionally, and asking specific questions related to that. Instead of asking general questions like "how can I make this photo better" or "what did I do wrong", tell us what you think can be better, or what you think is wrong, etc. and get the discussion started! That type of post makes it obvious that the person is interested in true constructive criticism. Otherwise, it's more likely they're interested in simply sharing, nothing wrong with that either.

I Completely Agree with U :).

Nagesh

[canonloader]

But ultimately every one here is to learn and in my opinion they can only learn if there is a proper critique to the pic.
Like if I don't like a pic then why I don't like.
This may improve a photographers perspective and push him a little more towards absoluteness.
The birds forum is a Photo Sharing Forum, not a critique forum, unless the OP asks for C&C. Too many times I have seen some blistering criticism of an image when none was asked for. That's wrong. On the other hand, if you follow the drift of the thread back far enough, I think I was still on the topic (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4608637&postcount=59) of not letting any members post drop off the bottom with zero replies. ;)

[Keith R]

I will never - directly or by implication - suggest to a fellow photographer that their picture was better than nothing - and that's "saying something for the sake of saying something" is doing, IMHO.

With all due respect for your position, Mitch.

[canonloader]

Not quite sure what that meant, but I don't say something for the sake of saying something. I sometimes leave a comment in a thread where no one else has bothered posting anything to, for the sake of letting the member know that someone found a few seconds of their precious time to actually leave a comment, rather than let it pass with nothing. That's how these forums work, heh. Imagine if people posted their work and no one ever posted any comment to it. How long would this forum last?

[gymell]

Admit it Mitch. You're just wanting to up your post count. ;)

[canonloader]

HAHA, I wish I could turn it back. I don't even know what it is anymore. High post counts are proof you don't have a life. ;)

[Levina de Ruijter]

What I want to know is what to do with those people who won't leave any comments with other people. I mean, some people come in, post their images, sometimes asking for C&C but they don't seem to realise (or possibly don't care) that other people like comments as well. We have someone like that in the bird forum right now. First time poster in our section, dumps his images, demands C&C and is gone. I hate that and I'd wish for people to ignore him, which of course they won't as there are way too many kind and decent people here in the bird forum... But why do some people not realise that this is NOT a one way traffic?

Pfff, glad I got that off my chest...

I'm fine now! :)

[canonloader]

As bad as it is in Birds, the bird forum is the best. Some forums are really bad, and some are loaded with cliques that ignore new people altogether. I have participated in high traffic forums since 1998 and have been a mod in a few of them. If you do a search for forums of any kind, you will see plenty of them with no member posting or visiting anymore, and it's because those who do post get no feedback. Lot's of people going through and stealing images, but none leaving feedback. Pretty soon, no one posts their images anymore.

When I first started here at POTN, I read that post about all of us doing our best to not let a zero post thread fall off the first page. We all know how that feels. Since then, I have made it my hobby to try and prevent that, in any of the forums I post in. Which is probably why my post count is so outrageous. LOL

[Levina de Ruijter]

I hear you, Mitch and I hunt for those zero reply posts as well. Not always, but regularly. However, if it's someone who will never post a comment him- or herself, I don't bother. Same with newcomers. I will comment, welcome them to the forum but if the newcomers turn out to be of the hit-and-run kind, then I stop being nice and let them slide of the radar with a big fat zero too. That's me. I'm nasty! :evil:

But I do love the bird forum. It's a great place to hang out and there's a bunch of people there that are simply the best you will find anywhere! Actually, I like POTN altogether... How sick is that? :mrgreen:

[canonloader]

Yeah, I understand. I started here in the Macro forum, then came to birds. Now I am back over in Macro more than anywhere, since I bought a microscope, but I'm still around every day, and I come back to check out the Bird forum several times a week. :)

[REC500]

I can't speak for all noobs but if a senior member posts a photo which is clearly better than any of mine and does not ask for comments I feel a little like a smart ass to comment even if the post is at zero response in the 5th page. I'm a bit scared I might annoy someone who obviously has more talent and experience than me. Praising a photo without any constructive comment feels like I'm just trying to up my posts even though most of the time I just can't help it.
After reading some discussions about POTN ethics I'm also a little reluctant to say thank you to 2/3 comments in my post which is now in the 3rd or 4th page because it will bump the post. I have already learnt a lot from the few conversations I have had here and I'm trying to be careful not to get in anyone's bad eye.
I believe though, that I'm going to be here for a long time and when I have more experience I am going to hunt for those zero response posts like you guys.
Wanbor

[Pete]

Some good points there, Rec. But don't forget that people are just as flattered by questions as they are by praise. If you see some striking photos, feel free to ask the photographer questions to help you gain an understanding of what makes a shot that good.

[Levina de Ruijter]

You make some good points indeed, Rec, but don't forget that the image sharing sections are not meant to give critique (unless people explicitly ask for it) but for sharing and it doesn't take any expertise to say you like a picture. Even the best photographers like a bit of acknowledgement.

[Flo]

That's the fine line, giving C&C when it's not asked for. How does one improve if no one is gently nudging them in the direction that would help the photography? I have seen so many times, one person getting that Atta boys, and every post after that is exactly the same, no improvement what-so-ever.
I totally get the first time and Life time list posts, that is about getting the species, not the Nat Geo pose;)
Just me though, I am no where near the expertise or technical standards that so many here are, but I try to improve each time I press the shutter. Thats WHY I keep coming back, to see what folks that post here have done lately, and read how they possibly tried something new to give them a clearer perspective on techniques etc.
Thats why I haven't posted in a while. I haven't upped my game as of yet, lol!

[Levina de Ruijter]

That's the fine line, giving C&C when it's not asked for. How does one improve if no one is gently nudging them in the direction that would help the photography?

That's an excellent point, Gail, but there's not much point in giving a bit of advice when it's not appreciated. My experience is that people often get offended if you try to nudge them gently into the right direction. So unless somebody explicitly asks for C&C I'm very very careful these days. And even those that ask for "brutal honesty" often don't mean it as they too more often than not have a hard time accepting that C&C, making all kinds of excuses and basically dismissing what you said.
So, it really is a fine line and I often choose to stay on this side of it, meaning not leaving a comment at all or if I can find something positive in the image, say something about that.

[Flo]

That's an excellent point, Gail, but there's not much point in giving a bit of advice when it's not appreciated. My experience is that people often get offended if you try to nudge them gently into the right direction. So unless somebody explicitly asks for C&C I'm very very careful these days. And even those that ask for "brutal honesty" often don't mean it as they too more often than not have a hard time accepting that C&C, making all kinds of excuses and basically dismissing what you said.
So, it really is a fine line and I often choose to stay on this side of it, meaning not leaving a comment at all or if I can find something positive in the image, say something about that.

Point taken and observed :)

[OhLook]

I can't speak for all noobs but if a senior member posts a photo which is clearly better than any of mine and does not ask for comments I feel a little like a smart ass to comment even if the post is at zero response in the 5th page. . . .
Me too. Every day I see photos in Birds (and Wildlife) that are truly pro quality. They attract a string of compliments, usually pretty much alike. Who the hell am I to add my "Wow!" to the list and deplete POTN's supply of electrons?

Sometimes I want to say "How did you do that?" but I remember that an advanced photographer who posts hasn't necessarily volunteered to give free lessons.

[gymell]

Me too. Every day I see photos in Birds (and Wildlife) that are truly pro quality. They attract a string of compliments, usually pretty much alike. Who the hell am I to add my "Wow!" to the list and deplete POTN's supply of electrons?

Sometimes I want to say "How did you do that?" but I remember that an advanced photographer who posts hasn't necessarily volunteered to give free lessons.

I don't see anything wrong with asking, after all this is a forum and if someone chooses to share something here then I'd be really surprised if they thought they were above giving some helpful advice or answering questions. Otherwise, why share in the first place?