I ain't no zoom guy (part 2) Perspective!

[Streetshooter]

Theres alot of conversations on the other thread I started about the 24-105.

Something to take into consideration about the advantages of a zoom over a prime......

let's not get into the sharpness issues or the f4 vrs 2.8 stuff either...

lets talk about the frame. This come from a lecture at Temple a few years ago....

a prime lens lacks 1 very important thing that a zoom masters...and that's called perspective....

with a prime, the frame dictates the distance you stand from the subject and as you move in and out of the scene, you change perspective in the frame....

with a zoom, you can stay in one place after you decide on the perspective your after and then frame the scene to the crop you want....

maybe this is something that goes un-noticed but it's the single most important thing that a zoom lens affords the photographer.

every lens/camera combination has it's advantages but you have to be aware of your gear and how it see's the scene.

I'm not saying any one lens (prime or zoom) is right or wrong, I'm just stating that a zoom has it's place and for what it does...nothing can do it better.

The 24-105 on my 5D is a great tool...it covers anything that I could or would use....Canon was on the money with this new lens.....to go from 70-105 is a great advantage to anyone using a zoom....

There's alot of people that feel that they have to make the move from a zoom to primes....ok, maybe it's something that you should entertain but you must be aware that the advantages you have and the advantages you get are different....from each.....do I feel guilty, or am I not a serious photographer cause I'm experimenting with a new zoom.....right.....

anyway...just venting but I think that many members are not aware of the perspective issues.....

stay tuned for more........hmmmmmmm don

[ed rader]

Theres alot of conversations on the other thread I started about the 24-105.

Something to take into consideration about the advantages of a zoom over a prime......

let's not get into the sharpness issues or the f4 vrs 2.8 stuff either...

lets talk about the frame. This come from a lecture at Temple a few years ago....

a prime lens lacks 1 very important thing that a zoom masters...and that's called perspective....

with a prime, the frame dictates the distance you stand from the subject and as you move in and out of the scene, you change perspective in the frame....

with a zoom, you can stay in one place after you decide on the perspective your after and then frame the scene to the crop you want....

maybe this is something that goes un-noticed but it's the single most important thing that a zoom lens affords the photographer.

every lens/camera combination has it's advantages but you have to be aware of your gear and how it see's the scene.

I'm not saying any one lens (prime or zoom) is right or wrong, I'm just stating that a zoom has it's place and for what it does...nothing can do it better.

The 24-105 on my 5D is a great tool...it covers anything that I could or would use....Canon was on the money with this new lens.....to go from 70-105 is a great advantage to anyone using a zoom....

There's alot of people that feel that they have to make the move from a zoom to primes....ok, maybe it's something that you should entertain but you must be aware that the advantages you have and the advantages you get are different....from each.....do I feel guilty, or am I not a serious photographer cause I'm experimenting with a new zoom.....right.....

anyway...just venting but I think that many members are not aware of the perspective issues.....

stay tuned for more........hmmmmmmm don

thanx Don -- lenses are tools. use the best tool for the job and above all avoid the fallacy of dichotomous thinking ;).

ed rader

[CyberDyneSystems]

Exactly why we need LOTS of primes :) :lol:

[Lotto]

Exactly why we need LOTS of primes :) :lol:

So true, time to grab more CAJ stocks.:lol:

[condyk]

My feel is one needs to almost be trained in a prime/s first and then graduate to a zoom. Having the frame dictate and having to move around to catch the exact right composition is important learning. When you have that then a zoom is cool.

[rklepper]

My feel is one needs to almost be trained in a prime/s first and then graduate to a zoom. Having the frame dictate and having to move around to catch the exact right composition is important learning. When you have that then a zoom is cool.

I would agree. Years ago I took a photography course in college and we only got to use 1 prime. I think that it was a 50, and of course on a film body. The idea was that with a zoom you frame the perspective, but with a prime, you are part of that perspective. The professor said this made you think more about what you were doing, about the composition, and resulted in a better photo.

[Ciqala]

I would agree. Years ago I took a photography course in college and we only got to use 1 prime. I think that it was a 50, and of course on a film body. The idea was that with a zoom you frame the perspective, but with a prime, you are part of that perspective. The professor said this made you think more about what you were doing, about the composition, and resulted in a better photo.

its this kind of thinking that helped me decide to just swap my 50 f1.8 for the f1.4 version instead of buying a different lens just yet, as i feel coming into this as a beginner it'll make me think more about the shots i'm taking and hopefully force me to be more creative. while a different lens (i.e. the 85 f1.8 ) would add more options to my shooting i think that overwhelming myself with things to think about is counter productive to the learning process and i'd rather take things slowly and learn each part properly one at a time.

[sdommin]

Years ago I took a photography course in college and we only got to use 1 prime. I think that it was a 50, and of course on a film body. The idea was that with a zoom you frame the perspective, but with a prime, you are part of that perspective. The professor said this made you think more about what you were doing, about the composition, and resulted in a better photo.

Good point. Years ago, I could only afford one lens (and that was the cheapo 50mm f1.8 lens that came with the camera!). It was quite a big deal to me when I could scrape up enough money to buy an equally cheapo 28mm lens.

Too bad there's no "law" these days that says you young whippersnappers can only use one prime lens for the first year after you buy your first DSLR. It would result in a whole bunch of better photographers, and also cut down on the number of posts that say: "OK, I got my first camera ever - what 10 "L" lenses should I buy now?"

[chtgrubbs]

Well put, Don. That's exactlly how I use my zoom. I move back and forth lining up the elements of the composition and get them in the perspective I want and then zoom to get the framing I need. Sure beats all those years of picking up a view camera on a tripod and moving it a foot or two and then having to recompose and refocus!

[Streetshooter]

cht....I still do that dancing thing with my Deardorff....

The 8 x 10 with the Reis tripod and lens...well, weighs just a few pounds more than my 5D.....we still dance together but the digital world is in the lead now...atleast for the moment.....

but I still love the smell of fixer or platinum on my hands........mmmmmm

how sweet it is.......don

[Sean-Mcr]

Don i think that majority feel that they should own zooms and not actually primes here. The thinking tends to be that they are in inconvenient and restrictive, i don't believe that to be true naturally. As for perspective, Perspective is governed by distance to subject not by lenses, you can only zoom in not change perspective as we all know. Basically what you're saying Don is that you can zoom in/crop out with a zoom , to be frank the clues in the title there. It's hardly news

I am well aware of the differences between zooms and primes. Which is actually why i chose primes

Lets not forget some important things about primes
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-03-07-13.shtml

[Streetshooter]

Sean....you know me by now to be a prime shooter.....I've used primes all my 47 years as a photographer....

I did these post to maybe show the younger shooters the differences between the primes and zooms...you and I and others as experienced shooters have a responsibility to share what we know with those that don't. In an open forum like this one, it's great to have readers read post and maybe get information fron an ongoing conversation....

I am trying out the 24-105 because the season for PR work for me is taking a real fast start. That lens is ideal for me to make money with...easier. In my personal work, it may or may not have a place, this weekend will tell...

as far as perspective goes...true as I and you stated...it changes with distance from the subject...so, a zoom allows you to crop the scene without changing perspective...by moving...you know this, others and I know this...but there are many others reading this that don't know this but now have something to think/experiment with.......

I breathe photography...I love cameras and lenses.....all of them so I won't discount any gear because I don't use it......I buy and sell like the stock market, especially Leica's

I'm not attacking you...you know that for sure....please keep on my tail cause I need friends like you to keep me running.....it's good to look back and see you there....

have a good weekend.......later...don

[ScottE]

My ususal approach to photography is to find a subject I want, find a position from which the subject has the relationship to its surroundings that I want, visualize how I want the photo to be framed and then pick the lens that will give me that result.

With a zoom lens that process is easy. You just pick a lens that has the range you want and zoom to achieve the framing you visualized. That is one of the reasons I prefer zoom lenses now that the optical quality approaches that of primes.

With a prime lens, you have to pick the lens that comes closest to the framing you visualized and then adjust composition again to fit the lens. Either that or pick the next widest lens and crop when printing. This also gives good results, but I do not find it as precise for attaining the picture I visualized.

I do not find the expression, "zoom with your feet" to be of much use. When you do that, the relationship if the subject to its surroundings changes and you do not get the picture you originally visualized.

[René Damkot]

I think a zoom should be used as an 'infinite perspective control' lens...

[Tess320]

It depends on what you shoot. As someone who spends a lot of time in zoos, I would miss hundreds of shots if I had to keep switching between primes. I COULD get a 300mm, but then what happens when that big cat suddenly comes closer and I miss out on a perfect shot?

I also shoot dog sports. It would be very difficult to use a prime in a dog sport like lure coursing as they will suddenly come closer and you cannot backup.

Primes, for those things, are useless to me.

[karusel]

Um.. this thread is great. I always knew what Streetshooter said in the first post, but I wasn't really aware of that while actually shooting. You wouldn't really see me moving back and forth when I've got one of my zooms attached and you wouldn't catch me switching the 35mm lens for 50mm and moving back.... I'll try to pay more attention to this now, thanx.

Wait, so THAT's why I'm not selling my Tamrons yet... :lol: I always knew I've got a good reason, but now I do! :D

[Sean-Mcr]

Sean....you know me by now to be a prime shooter.....I've used primes all my 47 years as a photographer....

I did these post to maybe show the younger shooters the differences between the primes and zooms...you and I and others as experienced shooters have a responsibility to share what we know with those that don't. In an open forum like this one, it's great to have readers read post and maybe get information fron an ongoing conversation....

I am trying out the 24-105 because the season for PR work for me is taking a real fast start. That lens is ideal for me to make money with...easier. In my personal work, it may or may not have a place, this weekend will tell...

as far as perspective goes...true as I and you stated...it changes with distance from the subject...so, a zoom allows you to crop the scene without changing perspective...by moving...you know this, others and I know this...but there are many others reading this that don't know this but now have something to think/experiment with.......

I breathe photography...I love cameras and lenses.....all of them so I won't discount any gear because I don't use it......I buy and sell like the stock market, especially Leica's

I'm not attacking you...you know that for sure....please keep on my tail cause I need friends like you to keep me running.....it's good to look back and see you there....

have a good weekend.......later...don



I know you breathe it Don, and you've taken a lot mor breaths then i have. But i do tend to choose the lens that will give me the look i'm going for, i feel i have more control with my distance to subject for my style of shooting. As i said one size fits all is ok for Tshirts but but it doesn't follow for lenses. I do rate the lens its a fine lens, but actually the info you gave is about zooms in general in this instance. But there are many things to consider when choosing a lens primes and zooms have there pros and cons. Alls i can is is that my framing improved dramatically once i started using primes, how i saw changed.

Have a good weekend...

[NordieBoy]

Too bad there's no "law" these days that says you young whippersnappers can only use one prime lens for the first year after you buy your first DSLR. It would result in a whole bunch of better photographers, and also cut down on the number of posts that say: "OK, I got my first camera ever - what 10 "L" lenses should I buy now?"
It would also keep the re-sale value of our 50 1.8's up :D

[lon10c]

Back on page one Doc made a very good point about framing and perspective. I have thought about that before, but never been able to put it in words quite that way. Thanx.

I have said this before and I apopogize, in advance, for being redundant. My mentor, some forty/fortyfive years ago told me "Use the 50mm lens for all of your work for a year and it will teach you more about photgraphy then I ever will".

My first Canon camera was a 7S series Rangefinder I bought in 1967. The camera came with a 50mm f1.4 lens. (Had an option for a 50mm f0.95 lens at about 2x price of the camera with the f1.4) I carried the camera every where I could for better part of the year I was in The Nam. Don't have it anymore. It got blown up the same time I did but, that's another story.

Canon marketed their first zoom lens in about 1965. (Before that, I guess everybody used primes and no photo had "perspective") When you say " Achieving proper framing and a more artistic perspective is always possible with a zoom but not a prime" sounds about the same to me as someone saying " There was no color in the world before color film was invented"?

[lon10c]

'scuse me, bad post.

[thundery]

I only own zooms however think about buying a macro prime. I find myself continuously moving around when I shoot to get the perspective that I want or that is appropriate. I can then fine tune my framing with a zoom. I would think that I would miss many photo oportunities, especially candid shots of people, animals, etc if I had to physically get closer or make a move that may be really noticable to the subject. Lenses are tools that help me capture images and zooms just seem to fit my photo style these days. Primes may someday.

[DocFrankenstein]

To learn, it's better to use a prime... especially the normal to wide angle primes. It force you to get closer and experiment with composition. With telephotos you accept your perspective and just zoom.

The photography is much more fun with normal/wide angle lenses. The perspective is very easily changed.

[Lord_Malone]

I love primes, but wouldn't rule out buying a zoom if a job calls for it.

[Cassie]

My feel is one needs to almost be trained in a prime/s first and then graduate to a zoom. Having the frame dictate and having to move around to catch the exact right composition is important learning. When you have that then a zoom is cool.

Now see that's how I started out, unintentionally, now I'm experimenting with zoom lenses, and I think I like it:). Now if I can only remember that I can zoom, I still find myself walking around and forgetting about the zoom ring, lol.