Thank you, it was nice. But time to move on. [Archive]

Oceanwatcher

18th of April 2006 (Tue), 21:40

I am a little sad to say that I will be moving on from EE.

I discovered EE a couple of years back and thought I had finally found the ultimate online gallerysoftware. Something that would let me make an online display of my passion for photography. And since I know I can never find anything that is perfect, I decided to go for EE. It was so promising. There were a buzz, and we were told that next version was just around the corner.

Some months back I wrote a post here about the lack of communication around this project. And we got a burst of new information. And then the same silence.

There are many good things about EE. But quality of a system is also good communication about future directions of the software. AND - it is regular releases of updates.

Any good software on the market today has a development cycle that is pretty regular. One of the things that happen is that after some research, a feature set is agreed upon and when the software goes to beta, that feature set is frozen. Nothing more is added. Actually, some things might get taken out. It goes into beta and it is rolled out.

That is the commercial side of things. OpenSource is often different. The software is released much earlier and it is left to the users to help finding bugs. And releases comes more often. Or, at least it should.

Lately, I have run into something people think is a "right" that OpenSource developers have. No accountability. "We deliver when it is ready". "You have no right to ask for anything". "We do not have to release next version at all". "Don't ask. Be nice and be happy with what you have got".

Sorry, but that is just not good enough. I think it is time to call this what it is. Unprofessional and no ideas about how to treat customers. Does the word customer imply money has changed hands? Well, that is up to how you define it. I choose to use this word in a wider sense to imply that there is a relationship between a programmer and users.

There are a lot of patient users in this forum. And a lot of politically correctness that make me sick. People joining the choir of "Don't ask when the software will be ready". I really encoureage everyone to ask about it and show that they are missing it. If Pekka do not want to reply to it, he will not do so! He is a grown up with a day job, and he is completely capable of deciding what he wants. Som come on guys and blow off all the steam you want!

I am genuinely sad to leave EE behind. But it is impossible to use and recommend old and stale software that do not have an active development community behind it. This is what I am going to look for in the future. That the project is not driven by one person only, and that there has been a steady stream of healthy releases. Also, that there is a roadmap that is being followed and developed.

Without regular releases, software will not stay current with new developments in technique and practices.

If there were a mailinglist that I could join to stay updated on EE, I would join it just for sentimentality.

My recommendations to Pekka:

Release the new version now. Do not hesitate. Then go OpenSource and get a development community for it. Set up an SVN server so people can check out nightly builds and a website for bugtracking. Get someone to set up a really good website for EE and start working on the marketing bit. There is a potential, but the momentum is fading fast.

I wish you all the best, Pekka. Both as a photographer and as a musician.

lost

18th of April 2006 (Tue), 23:49

Oceanwatcher, I feel your frustration. I agree that Pekka needs to expand the developement "team" if this script is to grow. But again its his app and we are subject to his rules.

I just hope that he get me 2.0 for my birthday, its May 5th you know. /wink

There was significant buzz when a computer mag published a story about galleries and included a reference to EE. That is how I found it, and POTN, but that has since died down.

Just my .02 but a dedicated Website, better communication and a dev team would really put EE on the Map. That may not be what Pekka is looking for.

islandtime

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 01:05

shaun3000

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 01:45

Not true. RedHat Linux can be download and used completley free of charge. But if you want support, you have to pony up the dough. That is what Pekka seems to be going for except he's missing the one critical piece; it's still not open-source.

I understand the need to tinker and make it perfect but the next version was supposed to be released "in a couple of weeks" back in DECEMBER! Still nothing. It's been over a YEAR since any new updates were released. If you want your excellent software to stay viable then you'll have to do better than that.

tommykjensen

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 02:00

Good luck finding a better gallery. I doubt You will find one. Your best chance would probably be to build Your own then You have complete control.

I will wait because I know that when the next version is released it will be in a much better state than new versions of Open Source software.

As long as people work for free developing the latest freeware for us to use the least we can do is be patient and be glad that we have something that's not costing us an arm and a leg.

Completely agree.

elektrik

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 02:14

Oceanwatcher and others are right: it's not good enough anymore.

Over the past few weeks, I have come to know and love Joomla, the open source content management system. After making the leap from static html/php, I've done two Joomla installations, installed countless modules, components and mambots, purchased templates and learned the code required to modify and customize it to my needs. I'm running both a business (biotech company) website with Joomla and my own personal space. I love it.

I never paid a penny for Joomla.

Joomla is so good for so many reasons: there is a huge community behind it, answering questions, doing development, discussing needs and the future, and producing an evolving product.

The software is free. Most addons are free. Yet I am a "customer." And many customers use this open source software to run large, complex sites that generate lots of revenue. They would pay for equivalent commercial products. But there is no need to -- open source meets needs.

In the Joomla world, progress updates are given, roadmaps spelled out and adhered to, and there are REGULAR releases that are dependable and stable.

Nobody has paid a penny for Joomla. We are all "customers."

I can't wait for software that has been so oft-promised and never delivered. Postings can promise that "EE 2.0" will wash my dirty dishes, but not if it never appears for download.

Users have real needs -- from casual, weekend website tinkering to firm deadlines and critical projects. Yet we cannot even get reliable answers as to if or when a release is coming. If the open source world treats a product this way, that product disappears -- users evaporate. There are no customers left.

The "find a better gallery" debate is moot -- a better gallery is one that is actively available and ready to meet most needs and is actively evolving for the future. For Joomla users, that is probably Gallery2.1 which can be counted on to deliver a reasonably advanced gallery right now.

In the case of "EE 2.0," I'm not sure how many users are still left. And without that critical base moving a product forward, how can further evolution -- say, for example, Joomla integration -- occur?

Like many others, I'm not likely to stick around to find out. It is time to move on.

InZone

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 02:40

Oceanwatcher and others are right: it's not good enough anymore.
....
....
I can't wait for software that has been so oft-promised and never delivered. Postings can promise that "EE 2.0" will wash my dirty dishes, but not if it never appears for download.

Users have real needs -- from casual, weekend website tinkering to firm deadlines and critical projects. Yet we cannot even get reliable answers as to if or when a release is coming. If the open source world treats a product this way, that product disappears -- users evaporate. There are no customers left.

In the case of "EE 2.0," I'm not sure how many users are still left. And without that critical base moving a product forward, how can further evolution -- say, for example, Joomla integration -- occur?

Like many others, I'm not likely to stick around to find out. It is time to move on.
What I can't understand is the lack of progress updates for EE in general. Where is the problem to talk to your users about problems / ideas / whishes... What is the reason to NOT communicate? No time?

If you have a look in this Forum it is clear that the most posts in the last MONTHS are about the upcomming (?) next version of EE... and most users are not talking about problems, features etc. There are talking about long time that it takes. There are talking about walking in the dark. The only light they see are some screenshots which I can produce whithin some hours...

Uhm good idea - maybe I should make some screens about my new, open source, Ajax-enhanced, freeware gallery script and gather some fo(o)llowers around me and my website who are willing to sit around like ducks for years...

Ok - no jokes anymore - I will sit like a duck and wait for the new version Pekka.

Please communicate with your forum!

Rafael

gillyworld

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 02:52

I think the mistake that Pekka has made is promising and then not delivering, it must be several months ago when we were told only 3 days more programming, then it was only documentation to complete. It doesn't matter if EE is free or paid for its about doing what you say you will do, if you don't want to do it or can't do it, then don't say you will.

I agree the way forward is better communication

Alan

tommykjensen

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 02:58

I think the mistake that Pekka has made is promising and then not delivering, it must be several months ago when we were told only 3 days more programming, then it was only documentation to complete. It doesn't matter if EE is free or paid for its about doing what you say you will do, if you don't want to do it or can't do it, then don't say you will.

Ever heard of life? Pekka have a life outside POTN and EE.

See Pekka's explanation to that question: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1266797&postcount=59

elektrik

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 03:21

Ever heard of life? Pekka have a life outside POTN and EE.

Sure. Absolutely. Things happen. We all understand that.

But to say that a release is due in days and leave people waiting for 5+ months is unfair. Some people also have lives that depend on having something when they need it. When they're told they can count on it. Like software.

Which is why there needs to be a team of people working on this project if it is ever to see the light of day.

If a release is "days away" then I'm sure this forum would be filled with experienced and trusted coders who could implement the fixes and changes and final modifications to complete the release for those times when "life happens." If there was only that infrastructure and communication in place. But there isn't.

Pekka

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 06:11

Release the new version now. Do not hesitate.

It is practically ready now. But I will release it when I think it is time, not because someone "threatens" to jump ship. If you want to use some other piece of code now or next week, then just do it - it has no effect on what I do and when. I have been now mainly testing practical usage on very big gallery sets and different versions of MySQL and changed some things based on that. When it is released it is already tested in most parts so that you'll have better experience with it from the start.

Then go OpenSource and get a development community for it. Set up an SVN server so people can check out nightly builds and a website for bugtracking. Get someone to set up a really good website for EE and start working on the marketing bit. There is a potential, but the momentum is fading fast.

Open source: no thanks. I've seen it kill real innovation and bloat software. Open source teams are sadly mostly focused on programming structures, not making the software better (usability/ui/functionality/features).

If I have said some release date it has always been because I've been asked. I have tried to make my best guess. Now I will not do that any more.

Cyclist

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 06:16

elektrik, your're saying what I am exactly thinking.

There is one thing I really don't understand: Sure, things can take longer than expected, but if we were told that EE 2.0 is very short before of being published and that we have to wait months again - then wether the first anouncement was wrong or someone has no idea how long things would take at all. I was reading notices like "95% is ready", "it is around the corner", "days away" - that doesn't fit with the current development at all. And: it's not the first time something like this happens. One year ago, there was an early anouncement as well but no release at all. Will it be 2006 the same? I don't know but I would like to know. What makes me nervous is that there is only little information on the current development. Is there still coding going on? How much work is left? What is the rough new time frame? Will it be ready in the next days, weeks, months or will it even take more than one year? It might have been better anouncing the new release only when you can say when it will be ready not when too many uncertainties are left.

I don't think that just because a product is free you aren't allowed to have any expectations or wishes for information. If it was totally private without any others users except Pekka himself communication on the project wouldn't be important but since at least some of us need the new features for their projects and would like to avoid setting up a totally different gallery from the very beginning it is quite understandable that people are asking and becoming unsure as more time passes by without any news on the coming release.

Pekka

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 06:36

Is there still coding going on?

Yes. Has always been, daily and nightly.

How much work is left?

Not much.

What is the rough new time frame? Will it be ready in the next days, weeks, months or will it even take more than one year?

Again, you ask :)
Ok, my best educated guestimate is "days".

lost

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 10:12

Open source: no thanks. I've seen it kill real innovation and bloat software. Open source teams are sadly mostly focused on programming structures, not making the software better (usability/ui/functionality/features).
.

Well then get a dev team and steer developement. I agree with the way EE is going and dont want the direction to change I just want dev cycle to speed up. I have seen plenty of offers for support. EE really needs its own site.

P.S. Not that it really matters but I am an IT Manager for a large corp. and frequently use open source software.

PP.S. Pekka, I have some thoughts for you. I will PM you shortly.

EDIT: After re-reading my post it may have come across with a negative tone. As Pekka now knows I fully support EE and would like to see it grow.

UncleDoug

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 11:10

Pekka,

You are a good man to stand up and take criticism like this.

But I feel you don't deserve any criticism.

This is your project.
Like I said before you can pull the plug and there is not one single thing anyone can do about it.

TO EVERYONE WHO MOANS AND COMPALINS ABOUT EE.
GET A LIFE AND GET OFF PEKKAS BACK.:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

This will probably make Pekka think twice about letting any of the fruits of his hard work out into the public again.

EE as it is, is pretty awesome.
If it does not live up to your expectations use something else and quit kicking the gift horse in the mouth.:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Rant over.

wcbert33

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 19:53

UncleDoug

To be fair it was Pekka that announced released dates and raised people’s expectation. When those dates slipped and that was over a year if I recalled correctly, what do you expect from some people?

This has nothing to do with Pekka, EE and EE users. You will see the same behavior from anything that people are using, expecting improvements and seeing nothing happen.

Maybe in the future Pekka does not make announcements for new versions of EE. Release and announce it when it done or ready for beta testing.

My two cents

Bill

cjsa

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 21:23

My 2 cents-
So Pekka shouldn't share his excitement when he thinks its almost done?
Does that mean he's "different" we expect more from him? hold him to a higher standard?
Count your blessings, guys.

zacker

19th of April 2006 (Wed), 22:06

Pekka... for what ever its worth.. you da man!
-zacker-

tommykjensen

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 02:16

UncleDoug

To be fair it was Pekka that announced released dates and raised people’s expectation. When those dates slipped and that was over a year if I recalled correctly, what do you expect from some people?

I don't remember Pekka releasing any dates at any time. He has said "soon" or "days". But he has only done that because posters have demanded that from him. Yes he raised expectations with screenshots from EE2 and so what?

As for open source and how EE would be done so much faster if it became open source. Well just look at phpBB. How long has the phpBB group been working on the next major version? I think close to or more than 2 years. And there are many users working on that project but still they cannot and will not announce a release date until they are 100% sure they are done. So I don't see how becoming open source would be good for EE. In fact I think it would degrade quality. With many programmers working on the same project the code will be different in different parts of the system because every programmer has his/her own style of coding. And that is a fact. With only one programmmer as in this case all the code will be coded in the same style and quality and that is even if takes longer much better in my opinion.

Cyclist

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 05:28

@tommykjensen: Pekka wrote in January:A fully functional upgrade version (without user upload, export and some minor things) will be available this month.

That sounds very clear. But it wasn't such clear as we figured out meanwhile. What I don't like about this discussion is that some users are not respecting the needs of other users. They don't seem to understand that for some new functions are important and that setting up a totally new gallery would take much more time. When you are told that EE 2.0 will be awailable soon then most would wait for that. Everybody is allowed to have his or her own expectations, that's nothing others should judge about. Are you only allowed the use free products if you don't have any expectations at all? In several anouncements Pekka said the new release was just around the corner. As I said before, everybody understands if coding takes a bit longer than expected. But what I expect is updated information about that development. That happened quite rarely. Of course Pekka can anounce a release long time before the final release - but then giving the information that it is still a long way to go, that it is impossible to say how long it will take. But anouncements like "days", "this month", "95% ready", "just around the corner" doesn't indicate that there is still a long way with an open end to go. That's simply a question of communication.

InZone

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 05:34

@Cyclist: Thats what I mean.

Pekka: Communicate!

tommykjensen

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 05:45

What I don't like about this discussion is that some users are not respecting the needs of other users. They don't seem to understand that for some new functions are important and that setting up a totally new gallery would take much more time.

You have absolutely no right to demand Pekka to fulfill Your needs for new functions in EE or even progress updates on the development. You can ask for it and if Pekka decides it is a good idea he will implement it but You have no right in demanding it done.

If You have needs that the current EE does not meet and there is no firm release date of the next then maybe it is time for You to either switch to a different gallery or start writing Your own. Yes it will take time but since Pekka's last answer to when still is "days" You have no way of knowing if "days" mean 2-10 days or 300-900 days. Not even Pekka can say that for sure. If he could he would have put a date on it.

No matter how You put it and no matter what Pekka has said he does not owe You a thing. You can use EE because Pekka allows You to do so.

I say it is time to stop whining over this and either wait or move on to a different galley.

With all this whining I would not blame Pekka if he decided to pull the plug on public use and just used it for his own site.

@Cyclist: Thats what I mean.

Pekka: Communicate!

Maybe Pekka is simply tirred of all the whining because no matter if he says 10 days, 1 month or a specifc date and it does not hold up all the whining starts all over.

neil_r

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 06:33

Let me see if I understand what is going on here……I bought a BMW 3 years ago, they have since brought out a “Newer” & “Better” model, if I understand what is being said here, BMW should give me that newer and better one free of charge. I will e-mail them in the morning :D

None of us are in a commercial agreement with Pekka, he is developing EE as a personal project and we get the benefit. I have no expectations, all right I do have a few hopes, but no expectations and that is how it should be.

I am really interested in what direction you go Oceanwatcher as I do not think you will find it that easy to find a replacement.

Elektrik. I would love to see what you are doing with Joomla, any chance of posting the URLs

N

tommykjensen

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 06:39

Let me see if I understand what is going on here……I bought a BMW 3 years ago, they have since brought out a “Newer” & “Better” model, if I understand what is being said here, BMW should give me that newer and better one free of charge. I will e-mail them in the morning :D

Well I think that would only apply if You got the BMW for free. Did You? :lol:

But You can definately demand to get progress reports complete with photos and specs on their new super model coming out in two years as well as a specific release date. After all that is demanded for a complete free product so the demans should be much higher for a product You have actually paid to get.

Big_B

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 07:02

Well I think that would only apply if You got the BMW for free. Did You? :lol:

I'm pretty sure that's theft :lol:

InZone

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 07:13

Maybe Pekka is simply tirred of all the whining because no matter if he says 10 days, 1 month or a specifc date and it does not hold up all the whining starts all over.
Communication could be more than talking about release dates. It is nice to hear about programming progress/problems/ideas and so on. It is something that doesn't cost much time and the "customer" gets a "good feeling" about the upcoming product.

For me, as a professional programmer, it's horrible to give an exact release date for a new version. I try to avoid that as often as I can. And more often I am late - but when I communicate about the progress (and everything else concerning the new development) with my boss or the customer its better for all... and for me.

So I don't "demand" new release dates - I think I don't have the right to demand anything concerning EE... but I ask for a little more communication from Pekka to the desperate audience. No big deal.

I can't see anything wrong with that whish...

Sorry for my english. It's not my native language. I hope no one gets me wrong.

tommykjensen

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 07:18

InZone. Asking for and wishing information is ok.

lost

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 10:28

Just for the record, some people have paid money. I myself donated to the cause. Yes, its a donation but the minute Pekka started accepting money he opened the door.

EE 1.5 is not freeware, its shareware and thats different. I know EE 2.0 will be released as freeware, and thats fine as long as some people understand that we are not all freeloader.

P.S. I told Pekka that he should take this criticism as a badge of honor. He has created something that a LOT of people want/need. The ONLY issue is they want/need more of it than he has time to develop.

neil_r

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 10:59

Just for the record, some people have paid money. I myself donated to the cause. and thats fine as long as some people understand that we are not all freeloader. .

As I said im my first post "None of us are in a commercial agreement with Pekka" I too have made several contributions to the cause, but they were donations for what we had, not funding for ongoing development with an expectation of delivery.

The more I read the more I think that the problem is with peoples expectations not Pekka's delivery.

Cyclist

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 11:08

Communication could be more than talking about release dates. It is nice to hear about programming progress/problems/ideas and so on. It is something that doesn't cost much time and the "customer" gets a "good feeling" about the upcoming product.

For me, as a professional programmer, it's horrible to give an exact release date for a new version. I try to avoid that as often as I can. And more often I am late - but when I communicate about the progress (and everything else concerning the new development) with my boss or the customer its better for all... and for me.

So I don't "demand" new release dates - I think I don't have the right to demand anything concerning EE... but I ask for a little more communication from Pekka to the desperate audience. No big deal.

I can't see anything wrong with that whish...

Sorry for my english. It's not my native language. I hope no one gets me wrong.

That's the same I am asking for. I never asked Pekka to implement a certain feature, I was just referring to the new features already anounced. I don't ask for dates but a rough time frame. That's totally different. And English is not my native language as well so smoetimes there might be better english expressions to say what I want to say. I was talking about the development of the last months in general, that has nothing to do with the latest anouncement of Pekka. I didn't criticize that at all.

UncleDoug

20th of April 2006 (Thu), 13:50

You have absolutely no right to demand Pekka to fulfill Your needs for new functions in EE or even progress updates on the development. You can ask for it and if Pekka decides it is a good idea he will implement it but You have no right in demanding it done.

If You have needs that the current EE does not meet and there is no firm release date of the next then maybe it is time for You to either switch to a different gallery or start writing Your own. Yes it will take time but since Pekka's last answer to when still is "days" You have no way of knowing if "days" mean 2-10 days or 300-900 days. Not even Pekka can say that for sure. If he could he would have put a date on it.

No matter how You put it and no matter what Pekka has said he does not owe You a thing. You can use EE because Pekka allows You to do so.

I say it is time to stop whining over this and either wait or move on to a different galley.

With all this whining I would not blame Pekka if he decided to pull the plug on public use and just used it for his own site.

Maybe Pekka is simply tirred of all the whining because no matter if he says 10 days, 1 month or a specifc date and it does not hold up all the whining starts all over.

Tommy,

You hit it on the head!

xahmol

21st of April 2006 (Fri), 07:15

As far as I understand, EE is a script that Pekka made for personal use and decided to make the script public for all people to benefit from the effort.
Knowing this, for me it is very much a pleasent surprise, that on all my support questions on this forum, Pekka has replied mostly within half an hour. For somebody that is not doing this for a living I find this quite extraordinary.

I can imagine that it might feel more confortable to see a software product with a large development base, but to be honest, I did not encounter any other gallery script that has the feature set that EE has today even in the present version.

For those people that are relying on announced features for commercial work or projects: I never understood that when you are commercially relying on a product you choose for any form of freeware/shareware/open source software without buying a support package to go with you. Or code the code yourself, or ensure that you have a service level agreement with somebody for support. Otherwise in my opinion you can never be complaining about delays/lack of support/lack of features.

Personally I use EE on my hobby, not for a commercial website. EE offers me much more than I presently need, but the things I do use I can do much easier with EE than any other script I had a look at. For me, I am perfectly happy with EE as it is now, am really pleasently surprised with the support Pekka has given me (for this I paid a donation, not to be able to demand new features) and any new version that I still get for free I consider as a terrific new bonus.

Cyclist

21st of April 2006 (Fri), 11:20

First of all there are different types of projects: not all projects are commercial, there are some non-profit projects which need to be considered as well and for those projects it might be important to find an open-source or freeware product if you don’t have the skills o time for coding it yourself.

What I am complaining about is not that fact that the coding takes longer than expected but the fact that little or late information is given about the delays at all. That makes (made?) it hard for me to decide if it makes sense to wait or not. I just would prefer getting updated information on a regular basis to know what the problems are if it takes longer, what has already been done, what work is left and how long that would take approximately. That doesn’t mean that there has to be a fixed date but just a time frame which helps me with my decisions. And if that has to be modified it’s okay but I would just like to read information about that. Also if it happens more than once.

That’s a wish I have and I don’t see why wishes shouldn’t be allowed or why it should be forbidden to express personal wishes and ask questions which I am asking myself (rhetorical questions). Some seem to mix up rhetorical questions with real questions.

If the current features would satisfy all my needs I wouldn’t even think about EE 2.0. The problem is that I need a complex structure which could be solved with the anounced virtual exhibitions quite easily.

I tried coppermine as well which is not bad at all. It can build up such structures but (and that is the deciding but) it has huge problems with IPTC and special characters. If english was my only language I could easily switch to coppermine but as soon as a keyword containing special characters (like in German or Italian) should be inserted automatically via IPTC coppermine fails and messes up the characters completely. That’s why I gave up coppermine and hope for the next release of EE. And of course I wish that I don’t have to wait too long. But that’s just a personal wish...

tommykjensen

21st of April 2006 (Fri), 13:33

It is not "wish for information" that is the problem

The problem is all the whining that goes along with it.

Instead of starting a "Goodbye thread"* Oceanwatcher could simply ask "Any news on progress with EE2 Pekka?". I bet Pekka would be more inclined to answer that than a "goodbye thread"

* just for fun have a look in the rules (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/rules.php) in section 4.8.

Cyclist

21st of April 2006 (Fri), 16:07

lost

21st of April 2006 (Fri), 16:28

Instead of starting a "Goodbye thread"* Oceanwatcher could simply ask "Any news on progress with EE2 Pekka?". I bet Pekka would be more inclined to answer that than a "goodbye thread"

* just for fun have a look in the rules (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/rules.php) in section 4.8.

Yeah, but wheres the drama in that.

Oh and on the rules, it specifically states "Goodbye posts (post seeking attention when you are abandoning the forums) are forbidden. " He is just not using EE any more, he did not say he was leaving. :)

xenon2000

24th of April 2006 (Mon), 15:32

Opensource = FREE = UNPAID!!

People who complain about the time between versions of opensource software and the bugs they encounter are more than welcome to pay for other programs. As a IT professional and webmaster, I appreciate all the work that goes into developing free software.

When is the last time you tried to learn a little MySQL or PHP so that you could help figure out your own bugs? How do you consider yourself a customer? have you paid anything for this program? Did you donate to the cause? Have you ever donated to a opensource site when you did find their software to be highly useable?

A work I see programs that cost thousands of dollar per user. What individual can afford to spend that much to host their own site?? I couldn't afford to have my own site if I had to use Windows based software (Dreamweaver, Visual Studio.net, Cold Fusion, etc) to develope the site.

As long as people work for free developing the latest freeware for us to use the least we can do is be patient and be glad that we have something that's not costing us an arm and a leg.

I am getting a little tired of this argument. EE is NOT Opensource... yet. The home version is freeware, but NOT open source. Which is exactly why I really want 2.0 to come out. Because I thought it was going to be opensource.

After EE 2.0 is released AND Opensource, then AND ONLY THEN, can people argue that they can't complain between releases. Or that they should help out. Sure 1.x is free for home use. But that only means they can't complain as a home user of the freeware EE 1.x

I am a php/mysql programmer. And I am sure there are many people like me on this forum. And I really want to help out. But I only help with opensource projects when it comes to php/mysql projects. Also, I only use opensource php apps. I have tried Freeware EE 1.x in the far past. And I liked it, so I joined the forum. I was also under the initial impression that 1.x was opensource and quickly found out that it was not. So I uninstalled and haven't used it since. And became very excited when EE 2.0 was announced to be opensource. If this ever happens, then I am ready to help out.

Heck, if EE 1.x was opensource, I would just use that and waste time helping with that. Just seems like that would be pointless if 2.0 has had so much work done with it. I would rather help with that version. But I can't until it's released and opensource. Please, please, Pekka, I want to help.

tommykjensen

24th of April 2006 (Mon), 15:43

I am getting a little tired of this argument. EE is NOT Opensource... yet. The home version is freeware, but NOT open source. Which is exactly why I really want 2.0 to come out. Because I thought it was going to be opensource.

After EE 2.0 is released AND Opensource, then AND ONLY THEN, can people argue that they can't complain between releases. Or that they should help out. Sure 1.x is free for home use. But that only means they can't complain as a home user of the freeware EE 1.x

I am a php/mysql programmer. And I am sure there are many people like me on this forum. And I really want to help out. But I only help with opensource projects when it comes to php/mysql projects. Also, I only use opensource php apps. I have tried Freeware EE 1.x in the far past. And I liked it, so I joined the forum. I was also under the initial impression that 1.x was opensource and quickly found out that it was not. So I uninstalled and haven't used it since. And became very excited when EE 2.0 was announced to be opensource. If this ever happens, then I am ready to help out.

Heck, if EE 1.x was opensource, I would just use that and waste time helping with that. Just seems like that would be pointless if 2.0 has had so much work done with it. I would rather help with that version. But I can't until it's released and opensource. Please, please, Pekka, I want to help.

Pekka has said following about EE2 licensing

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1139542&postcount=8

It will be freeware not open source.

xenon2000

24th of April 2006 (Mon), 15:59

Pekka has said following about EE2 licensing

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1139542&postcount=8

It will be freeware not open source.

Looks like I posted in that thread too. But hadn't seen that last post by Pekka. I guess I won't be able to help out like I was hoping. Guess I can just move on with my projects then. Sad that it will only be freeware and not opensource. I see no point in making changes to EE and then only sharing them here. I help out too many people to limit myself that way.

I guess I don't understand why go fully freeware for both home and commercial and not opensource. Sure you have more control. But you lose the benefit of mass progress. EE could really take off as Opensource. Like Gallery and others. :)

Pekka, if you ever change your mind and go open source, I look forward to helping advance your project. Thanks for all the great ideas.

Pekka

24th of April 2006 (Mon), 18:27

Looks like I posted in that thread too. But hadn't seen that last post by Pekka. I guess I won't be able to help out like I was hoping. Guess I can just move on with my projects then. Sad that it will only be freeware and not opensource. I see no point in making changes to EE and then only sharing them here. I help out too many people to limit myself that way.

Interesting logic.

I guess I don't understand why go fully freeware for both home and commercial and not opensource. Sure you have more control. But you lose the benefit of mass progress. EE could really take off as Opensource. Like Gallery and others. :)

Pekka, if you ever change your mind and go open source, I look forward to helping advance your project. Thanks for all the great ideas.

Gallery has taken off in open source, had new features, but really not developed as a product in years.

"You can sell your code. Red Hat does it all the time. What you can't do is stop someone else from selling your code as well. That just says that you need to add extra value to your code, by offering service, or printed documentation, or a convenient medium, or a certification mark testifying to its quality."
http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php

To me the open source sounds as a method of getting EE code into other projects, not as much as getting useful and relevant code to EE. The work I have done for years is done for users of EE, it's a free download, it's free to use - I control the look, feel and design framework and in the end rule which direction it goes and how. I try to seek for innovative, expandable and "different" solutions and spare no time and effort in finding them.

Open source means all the work is done by people who do not take it as personal pet project with responsibility of overall product. All the work is done for anyone who wants to use the code, anyone who wants to package and sell EE, or mutilate its design and redistribute it, or use most of the code and make a new application out of it. In the end nobody really cares about that particular project because it may be transferred to something completely different or taken over any time. That is why majority of open source interest is projected to functions, classes, libraries and utilities and people are rarely interested in really investing time to make complete products, products that work better and smoother with better user experience and design (even with simpler coding). All open source software begin to look the same, behave the same and feel the same.

So as you can see I am very pessimistic about open source...

lost

25th of April 2006 (Tue), 09:39

Interesting logic.

Gallery has taken off in open source, had new features, but really not developed as a product in years.

"You can sell your code. Red Hat does it all the time. What you can't do is stop someone else from selling your code as well. That just says that you need to add extra value to your code, by offering service, or printed documentation, or a convenient medium, or a certification mark testifying to its quality."
http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php

To me the open source sounds as a method of getting EE code into other projects, not as much as getting useful and relevant code to EE. The work I have done for years is done for users of EE, it's a free download, it's free to use - I control the look, feel and design framework and in the end rule which direction it goes and how. I try to seek for innovative, expandable and "different" solutions and spare no time and effort in finding them.

Open source means all the work is done by people who do not take it as personal pet project with responsibility of overall product. All the work is done for anyone who wants to use the code, anyone who wants to package and sell EE, or mutilate its design and redistribute it, or use most of the code and make a new application out of it. In the end nobody really cares about that particular project because it may be transferred to something completely different or taken over any time. That is why majority of open source interest is projected to functions, classes, libraries and utilities and people are rarely interested in really investing time to make complete products, products that work better and smoother with better user experience and design (even with simpler coding). All open source software begin to look the same, behave the same and feel the same.

So as you can see I am very pessimistic about open source...

I am sorry to hear your disdain for open source. That has not been my experience but wont preach here. Would you then consider a middle ground? You control the look and feel but don't necessarily have to code each line. Assigning some projects to trusted coders that you have seen examples of their work? (I am not one but would assist in any way requested)

I think we have a wealth of pooled knowledge and expertise here at POTN if we could leverage that to build "One Gallery to rule them all" :) that would be great. Otherwise I will continue to smile enjoy the releases when they come and "gently" prod you to hurry up from the sidelines. :p

Best wishes as usual,

Lost

xenon2000

25th of April 2006 (Tue), 10:51

I too am sorry to hear your poor experience with the open source community. And I too won't preach since you obviously know that I am for open source and I trust that you are not ignorant to the advantages of open source. Obviously everything would be open source if there was ZERO disadvantages.

Good luck with your personal projects. I too enjoy coding my own applications.

DeadKenny

21st of May 2006 (Sun), 20:45

Personally from what I've seen here the support and attitude is pretty friendly, and it's an impressive project from essentially a one-man-band.:D

Compare it with Coppermine where the mods on the forums over there get very touchy about problems raised on their software. For example a recent change in their software has rendered the upload feature useless on my install and thus the software useless. I posted a question in a friendly manner but I get a snotty response and black marked for apparently not obeying the sticky note "properly" regarding posting problems, and for posting on a related thread that was the exact same issue as mine.

They have an entire dedicated forum to upload problems and get snotty with anyone posting a problem and make assumptions that all problems are down to the user doing something wrong and it can't possibly be a fault in their software. What really gets me though is even if it's your fault they won't tell you what you're doing wrong, they just get snotty about it and point to a sticky note that doesn't actually help much.

It beats me how they just don't understand why people are not following their rules. It also beats me how they haven't realised there is something seriously wrong if so many people run into the same problem with uploading.

I never got the problem resolved because they are just not interested (the black marks you get for not obeying the rules means they ignore you), so I moved on to look for other software. I'd tried out Gallery before and it didn't really suit my needs. EE however has a far more professional looking approach and suited to photographers. Though seemingly complex to set up, it's not that bad when you get used to it and it works with no problem (which is more than I can say about Coppermine).

p.s. In regards to Open Source, one thing I would say is it is a bit "design by committee". Though it does work in some situations. It does require direction though and some projects just get bogged down concentrating on anything other than innovation. In many ways it's much the same with commercial development in my experience. You struggle to get things you really want done as you are dealing with petty customer issues about the colour of an icon or the font used which are deemed as critical, but key changes that would help make the software better and sell well are ignored.

Pekka

21st of May 2006 (Sun), 21:24

Just as an update: EE 2 has been recently installed on some "real" servers (EE users) and based on that experience I'm now doing some finetuning to upgrade script and also couple of more example styles to show template power. All things considered It is quite safe to say EE 2 upgrade to 1.5 will be released next week (in 7 days from now). There as still tons of features I would like to get done for it but I think it is time for a release and no more talking :)

iceman

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 08:36

Thank you for the update Pekka, and all the hard dedicated work you do.:D

tommykjensen

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 13:35

condyk

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 16:02

EE is the best gallery available :)

Tommy

Is it easy for a semi-literate half wit such as myself to install or do you need some geek brain implant to do it? My gallery is in need of more facilities and uploading one at a time is such a drag I only do a few each week. I have a server and domain, a reasonable grasp of HTML and such stuff and can learn quick as long as it's not lots of boring coding stuff.

tommykjensen

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 16:10

Tommy

Is it easy for a semi-literate half wit such as myself to install or do you need some geek brain implant to do it? My gallery is in need of more facilities and uploading one at a time is such a drag I only do a few each week. I have a server and domain, a reasonable grasp of HTML and such stuff and can learn quick as long as it's not lots of boring coding stuff.

I don't know about EE2 but it (EE1.5) can be a little difficult to get everything right. There is no coding involved but there are several settings that need to be condfigured.

But I am sure You can figure it out and if You get stuck You just post here and You will get the help needed.

Pekka

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 16:14

Tommy

Is it easy for a semi-literate half wit such as myself to install or do you need some geek brain implant to do it? My gallery is in need of more facilities and uploading one at a time is such a drag I only do a few each week. I have a server and domain, a reasonable grasp of HTML and such stuff and can learn quick as long as it's not lots of boring coding stuff.

Condyk, as soon as you have server space with PHP and MySQL and one ftp account I can set up EE for you there.

condyk

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 16:30

Condyk, as soon as you have server space with PHP and MySQL and one ftp account I can set up EE for you there.

Many thanks Maestro. You are a true gentleman.

I am happy to try out v2.0 when it is ready (tomorrow, next week, next month, whenever) and/or to feedback if you need some user testing.

I will PM you a little note with server details ;)

lost

22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 20:36

Ok now that I am running out of thing to complain about I guess I will have to manufacture things to complain about.

I am totally leaving EE cause you gave the update in the "I'm leaving" thread instead of my thread. :p

That is wonderful news. Now I can get around to re-installing linux on my server once 2.0 is released.

DeadKenny

23rd of May 2006 (Tue), 05:27

Condyk, as soon as you have server space with PHP and MySQL and one ftp account I can set up EE for you there.
Now that's service for you:D

lakiluno

27th of May 2006 (Sat), 12:44

will EE 2.0 use FTP - I don't have FTP on my server, only SCP :(

Pekka

27th of May 2006 (Sat), 12:52

will EE 2.0 use FTP - I don't have FTP on my server, only SCP :(

Yes EE uses ftp. You can use it without FTP, but uploading without it is not supported. Many features require FTP (like automatic path creation).

SFTP will come eventully but it might take some time.

PS. personally I prefer to keep FTP port open instead of SSH (needed by SFTP). You can always set FTP accept connections from localhost only, thus making it 100% safe for external attacks.

DavidW

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 08:18

SCP is pretty horrid, as it's not very well standardised. SFTP is a better choice than SCP in most cases. For OpenSSH's view on scp features, see here (http://www.openssh.com/faq.html#2.10).

About the only problem I'm aware of with SFTP is the difficulty of offering virtual user SFTP; virtual user based SFTP isn't supported by OpenSSH, which means that all SFTP users have to appear in the system password file.

David

cdifoto

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 08:48

Are there any EE2.0 sample/test/beta galleries available for perusing so I can get a feel for how it all works, at least from the non-admin user side? I'm curious as to whether this is something I'd even be remotely interested in...

lost

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 11:59

A basic example is located here. (http://www.btoups.com/gallery/) There is are a lot customization that you can do.

cdifoto

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 12:21

A basic example is located here. (http://www.btoups.com/gallery/) There is are a lot customization that you can do.

Cool thanks! Is ALL that EXIF auto-extracted when included?

lost

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 15:09

Cool thanks! Is ALL that EXIF auto-extracted when included?

Pretty much! EE is the Photographers Gallery software. :)

cdifoto

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 15:13

Good deal. I might have to DL it and give it a whirl. Nothin' to lose. ;)

tommykjensen

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 15:14

Good deal. I might have to DL it and give it a whirl. Nothin' to lose. ;)

Do it, You won't regret it. But if You do there is no turning back.

HMetal

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 12:37

So as you can see I am very pessimistic about open source...

As well you should be. I have been a software developer for the last 15+ years, with 6+ of that in PHP experience..

Open Source is nothing more than a means to bloat and bastardize software. The people behind these projects mostly don't really care (although there are some exceptions) about their "customers." They care about pats on the back and sharing (stealing) and forking open source code to use in their projects and repackaging it as a different distribution.

Don't do it Pekka! Keep eE licensed as free but don't make it open source.

See Simple Machines' (creators of SMF forum software) note about Open source here: http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php

segal3

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 13:45

All things considered it is quite safe to say EE 2 upgrade to 1.5 will be released next week (in 7 days from now).
Well...6 days down...only 7 hours and ~40 minutes until a week has passed. ;)

DeadKenny

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 20:01

PS. personally I prefer to keep FTP port open instead of SSH (needed by SFTP). You can always set FTP accept connections from localhost only, thus making it 100% safe for external attacks.
Many linux distributions now don't install FTP by default and only have SSH/SFTP. I use SSH for just about everything with remote connections now.

However as you say you can install FTP and have it only work on localhost. In my case my web server is at home behind a NAT router and I have to explicitly open ports to forward them to the server and if I don't forward FTP it's not exposed.

I just looked out the proftpd rpm package for Fedora Core and installed that. Works pretty well.