On Being an Effective Critic

[eland]

This forum has been degenerating lately and it is sad to see.

Below is most of my comment made under the good photograph of
"Glencoe Lone House Landscape" by Martin Paul.

The comments that I made really apply to comments in general on this Forum.
Therefore I am inserting them here as a separate post.....................

Having read the comments below Martin's image and elsewhere on this Forum,
as a professional photographer I find them frustrating
and though well meant, even irritating and petty.

There seems to be far too much concern about sharpness and not enough about CONTENT, LIGHT & COMPOSITION.

We all know that photos can be sharpened to a degree but sharpness is not the be all and end all.

Rembrandt's paintings are not sharp.
Van Goch's paintings are not sharp.
Neither are those of Monet or Seurat or Reubens.

In fact the works of Seurat on this or other forums would be howled down
as being FULL OF NOISE.
They are made up of Dots !
But try to buy one for under a million dollars.

Because of this most works of art need to be viewed from a distance
of some feet or even yards,depending on size,
before the effect becomes apparent.

On your image Martin the exposure is fine.

A white cottage at that distance in soft light is going to
be white with no detail. That is what you have.
How would changing the exposure change that ??
It could only turn it into a Gray Cottage.

Painting this composition, a Water-colorist actually would leave the cottage UNPAINTED
with only the paper underneath showing through.
To show the bright white cottage the water-colour painter
would use the white paper underneath to show brightness.
No paint at all and no detail at all.
Just like the cottage walls in your composition.

On your composition I have only one reservation, and it has not been mentioned at all.
The path or track cuts your composition in half and is, in my opinion, a distraction from the main subject.
ie. the cottage.

There are two ways out of this.

1) Cut the image off above the track, making the photograph into a horizontal composition or
2) Fill in the ungrassed area using your Clone Tool.

I would urge people making critiques to go beyond the very basic beginners' comments of
Not Sharp, Wrong Exposure, Too Much Noise and oversharpened.

Ask youself ......
* Is the Composition pleasing ?
* Is the Light right for this type of image ?
* Is there something in the composition that is spoiling the effect ?
ie. Is there some obvious defect in the composition ?
eg the sandy strip in this picture.

And a final comment.
Make your Critiques CONSTRUCTIVE.
Say something encouraging and helpful

If you can't do that, then rather pass and say nothing.

Saying "This photo does nothing for me " is not helpful at all.
Rather tell the photographer how you would like to see the image improved.

If one really thinks the picture is beyond being fixed, then be kind
and pass without comment at all. NEVER be hurtful or rude.

Saying "Quite Nice" is not helpful either. In fact it's insulting.
Rather say what, in your opinion, would make the image really good.

People put their pictures on this forum mainly to LEARN.
( There are a few exceptions. )
Make your comments worthy of their trust in you, so that they come away saying

" This is a great forum.
The folks are helpful and considerate.
I'm learning so much here. "

eland

[SoCal69]

eland wrote:

Make your Critiques CONSTRUCTIVE.
Say something encouraging and helpful

If you can't do that, then rather pass and say nothing.

I agree completely. Not long ago there were two threads in which several people complained about the lack of posts in contrast to the number of views, suggesting that if you took the time to look at a photo, you should take the time to comment. While this may be appropriate in the share photos board, I have regularly refrained from replying in the critique forum for the simple reason that I am a rank amateur, and usually cannot provide constructive comment (many times because I think the photo is fine, but other times because I cannot articulate my feelings in way which would provide any useful information to the photographer).

I think it is important to remind posters that not everyone here (read: me) is professional enough or knowledgeable enough to provide constructive comment.

I will state again what I stated in the earlier threads: that no one should feel obligated to comment on a photo simply because it was posted. Many of us (again, read: me) learn by simply looking at the photos and reading the comments of the many excellent photographers who frequent this board and are willing to pass on their knowledge and expertise.

[pappy]

I wholeheartedly agree with this post and the spirit in which it was made. Like Chuck, I too am a rank amateur and in no position to critique anyone's work. Oh, I know what I like and say so here but more regularly in the Share forum.

Critique is constructive and helpful and I have been the beneficiary of that from many members here. Unfortunately many of eland's observations of the things he reads here are becoming the norm and are critical rather than being criticism.

regards,
peter

[Conk]

Eland,
I agree with many points of your post. I also find myself in the same boat as Peter and Chuck being amateur.
This makes me want to leave commenting in the critique forum for the professional photographers and more experienced in offering proper critique.
Don't take me the wrong way. I want to learn how to offer proper feedback on a photo.
I find that what I basically do is comment on how I would like to see the image. That is the best I can do. Maybe that kind of feedback is better left to a "feedback forum" rather than a "critique forum"?
I also feel like I've been ripped a "new one" publicly.

[RbnDave]

I disagree with you eland.

What makes one person's critique more valuable than another? It is completely subjective.

When I post a photo for critique, I take into account the history of those who critique my photos. If the poster is someone whose work I admire, I take the critique more seriously than I would an unknown poster. The great thing about this board is it's small size. I know the work of most of the people who post.

Do you think Rembrandt got all good reviews during his time? I doubt it. However, Rembrandt had enough courage to dismiss some bad reviews from untalented critics. On the same note, a good artist also knows which critiques are important and makes adjustments based on critic's suggestions.

On the subject of amatuers giving critiques... I would like critiques of my photo's from people of all skill levels. Not everyone looks at a photo the way a pro does. Sometimes an amatuer can cut through the BS and tell you at a glance if the photo works or doesn't work. If you decide to hang a photo in your home, who is going to view it -- mostly people who know nothing about photography. I want to see that viewpoint on this forum, and also I want to hear the views of the the professionals. There is room here for both.

As for my critique of the Glencoe photo... I don't think it was sharp enough. That's my opinion. Maybe the photographer was going for an impressionist type blurred look, or maybe it is simply out of focus, I don't know. Either way the photo didn't work for me. By posting in the critque corner the photographer was asking for my opinion and I gave it. Maybe, eland, you should have posted your contrasting opionion. It might have sparked some debate. Also, the photographer could have stepped up and defended his work.

This forum can be too polite.

[eland]

Hi
Thank you all for your comments.

Writing a crit on some one else's work is a sensitive job.
It is a skill that has to be learnt as any other skill must be learnt.
It is no crime to get it wrong through lack of experience.

One can be a very good photographer and still not know how
to write a constructive comment an another person's photo.

Most people on this forum are keen amateurs who experience a thrill and pride when they share their pics online.
That is how it should be and we all owe Pekka a vote of thanks for making this possible for us.

Many people who post in Critique Corner genuinely want help to improve their pictures.
What nobody wants is to be shot down in flames.

As critics we have a responsibility to reply tactfully and CONSTRUCTIVELY
so that the person feels that he/she has really learnt something new.
Something that will be of BENEFIT to future endevours
in the pursuit of excellence in photography.

A critic should regard himself/herself as a teacher of photography.
That is really our purpose. To help those asking us for help, so that we can teach them from our own knowledge or experience.
Another purpose that is SO valuable to a budding photographer is to be kind and complimentary.

There is no better example of this than "Pappy".
Pappy rightly or wrongly does not consider himself equipped to
pass critical judgement on another person's work.
Yet he has the wonderful gift of making people feel good when
they read his ALWAYS kind and complimentary posts.

In this respect we are not like newspaper critics who go to a play or movie
and come back and write that it was lousy and a bore, and don't go and see it.

That is not our role at all.

Real people are asking us for advice and help.
If we feel capable of building up their knowledge even slightly,
and/or building up their self-confidence then we should do so........ with tact and sensitivity and encouragement.

I write this as I feel that many very fine and sincere people have
perhaps not fully appreciated how to reply to the call for advice from fellow photographers.

eland

[tenerife]

Thank you verry mutch for you post Eland, yes thats are the right words..

Thanks and regards from Tenerife
Klaus

[Mark Kemp]

I agree in principle with your comments.

It certainly isnt helpful to dismiss a picture as valueless, but......

If there are aspects of a picture that you don't like or think could be improved, it is just as helpful to point them out. Be sensitive, try to suggest how to improve the picture and don't forget to mention what you do like.

I have made a few comments in the last few weeks, some positive, some a little critical and most seem to have been positively received.

I don't think it matters whether you are a pro an amateur or a complete beginner. Everyone can see and think and form an opinion - just express that opinion without suggesting that the picture or the photographer are worthless!


I have also just started posting my pictures here and received some positive and some negative comment and some suggestion for improvements - all of which I am very grateful for.

If this forum becomes 'too nice' it will be a mutual congratulation society rather than a critique forum.

My photography improves when people tell me the truth - good or bad!

Please continue to do so.

[pappy]

rbndave wrote:


This forum can be too polite.



There is no failing in being polite to anybody, even someone one dislikes or whose work, photos they don't care for.

Civility is a dying art, in a small community such as this we had better be polite to each other.

regards,
peter

[henkbos]

OK, my 2 cents.

Rembrandt died poor. No one liked the Nightwatch because most of the faces where in the shadow.
As far as forums are concerned: I always check the Critique forum, because those posters WANT comment and I try to give that with the limited amount of time.
Like I do not have to agree with the photographer, the photographer doesn't need to agree with me. I write what I think, take it or leave it, use it or don't. No offense either way.
We all strive to perfection, which is not always archievable. The circumstances might have dictated us to over-expose a certain area or whatever other 'mistake'. The critic doesn't know that.

Keep shooting, keep posting, keep commenting.

[Laziferous]

Thank you for this post Eland. You are very generous.

My thoughts...

I'm an amateur, that to be honest, is quite intimidated by the critique corner. I only post something here if I'm ready to "suck it up, and take it like a man"... because as you said, lately, that seems to be the norm. I anticipate that, and when I really want to learn something, I post.

I wish I could offer more, as a critic... but I just don't know enough to comment intelligently on anyones work. I make suggestions in the share forum, because that seems to have a looser feel to it, and there seem to be mostly amateurs posting in there, and I feel more comfortable in that setting.

I've recently had a real interest to improve my photos, so I expect to be looking for more critiques. Thank you, and everyone that is kind enough to lend their expertise on this forum.

And thank you all for making this a place I like to "hang out".

[jim monroe]

Let me add my 2 cents.
I am a newcomer to these forums but have already learned a lot from them and as at least one previous individual has stated Pekka should receive much thanks for this.

Someone said that this forum could become "too polite". I really wonder if that is exactly what that individual meant. My thinking is they may have meant every comment could be a positive one, or say 99% of the comments are positive, and this might be construed as being "too polite."
My feelings are that one can not like a posted photo but still be polite it stating that and of course to be constructive they need to say why they don't like it.
No truer comment exists than pappy's about the loss of civilty in the world but civilty does not or should not require that I like a phot.

My own feelings upon reading most of the posts are
there are too many posts with just a statement like great shot, extraordinary, etc. with little mention of why it is a great shot. In other words simply an opinion without some real backup which to me doesn't add much to the education of anyone reading the post. It takes a lot of time to try and articulate in a meaningful way what it is you do and don't like about a particular posting.

Also from a newcomers perspective, at least this newcomers perspective I would like to see a little more info about the photos like camera, lens, settings, etc. I could learn a lot from this.

There also seems to be two aspects of critiquing photos. There are the technical aspects and, for lack of a better term, "art" aspects. I think some of eland's initial remarks , if I understand them correctly, pointout the lack of comments of some of the artsyier aspects of the posts. Even total beginners should be able to comment on the later although perhaps not as expertly as someone who has thought about compensition a lot.

Finally I will continue to peruse this forum and may someday get to posting some of my own pictures. Right now I'm still focusing on some of the other forums for technical information.
Actually as a newcomer I would appreciate a step by step procedure for how to post photos on this forum. It would be nice to have it somehow permanently hilighted so that all newcomers could go to it and see what needs to be done. Probably reasonably easy just my inertia and having to learn too many other things has kept me from doing it.

[stopbath]

Tossing in my 2 pennies.

The photographs are posted into a public forum. Each member of the reading public has the equal right to respond. Perhaps some know more about photography than others, perhaps some like some type of photography more than other types, but we're all here to learn and share.

Each response is an opinion, and as such, there is no correct or false responses. Some ideas may clash with your sensabilities, and it's your choice to ignore or rebuttle the post.

I agree fully about civility, and trying to keep the replies to be constructive, and offer improvement ideas.

[new girl on the bloc]

i know that i do not possess the knowledge to advise anyone on the technicalities of their photo. i do however have a discerning (yet subjective) eye and know what i like and comment with how it moves me. i may offer suggestions, but aside from that i just like the simple art of sharing and commenting.

[jinzou]

(I've said it before) but I'm new to photography so when I ask for comments and critiques, I mean it. I unfortunately have not had the education and experience of other photographers here, so sometimes I honestly cannot "see" what I'm doing. (artistic blindness, does that make sense?)

When I post a pic up anywhere on these boards, I am open to criticism and will accept it. If you flame me (ie: this photo sucks, move along) then yeah it will hurt my feelings but I haven't gotten anything like that, nor have I seen any. Comments like: I feel this photo could be strengthened by this and that, I will eat up. I've actually learned quite a bit from the few comments I've received on the few photos I've shared. :)

If someone says that they don't like a photo, and then proceed to tell the photographer why, then I learn from it (whether it's my photo they're commenting on, or someone else's). I'm willing to bet someone else is learning from it too.

[suzie]

Similar to many others here, I am a just an enthusiastic beginner, but I just wanted to add my thoughts to this thread.

When I was introduced to this forum (with heart-felt thanks to Eland), I spent a long time just browsing the photos and reading the comments posted, learning all the while.

I do not think I am alone in finding it was quite intimidating to enter the critique forum, so it was quite a while before I built up the courage to post one of my own shots but when I did, I was thrilled with the positive responses and helpful feedback I received. Some posts since then have not been as positive or as helpful, but I think it is all worthwhile as long as comments are not mean-spirited.

The more feedback the better, but sometimes time is short for all of us and even a simple "I like it" is sometimes a boost when from a member whose work you really respect. An "I don't like it" comment though, if no qualification of that view is given, is not very helpful and can be quite demoralising.

I also think all members (including myself, I hope), regardless of their expertise, have something to offer to other members as everyone has different preferences, viewpoints and backgrounds. I think sharing your experiences and lessons learned with other beginners can sometimes be just as valuable as getting advice from a more experienced member.

There is nothing like the little tingle of excitement you get when you receive a "reply notice" from the forum in your e-mail - I get a real buzz from it and I am sure others do too.

Anyway, I hope I have not wasted anyone's time in this reply (another great fear for us newbies, I think) but the point of my response is to say - this forum is a great way for people like myself to learn and improve and I find the time I spend here a very enjoyable part of my hectic day. Thanks should go to Pekka and also to all people who participate in making this site the success it has been and hopefully will continue to be.

I think I need to cut back on the coffee after all that! :p

Suzie.

[clos]

Great post Eland!

This should definitely be at the top of this forum for others to reference.

However, l don't find this forum too rude nor have I seen abusive posts. Quite the contrary, I find this forum to be a bit too shy to comment and too quick to compliment. Yeah its nice to here compliments but I'd rather here something I can use. This ofcourse is a personal Opinion coming from a brash American with a fiery Hispanic heritage.

l say Keep 'em coming times ten and yeah amateurs included.

-Clos