Jekyll and Hide 10D

[lightandlife]

At long last, I received my 10D from Adorama. This is my third 10D (the other two were returned in Hong Kong.)

It seemed to have passed an initial, informal autofocusing test, and I took it to a meeting. Most of these shots were taken under low light conditions, without flash. LCD screen was not sufficiently clear to indicate whether autofocusing was working properly. After downloading the pics, I found that it was not. For instance, I would aim at a white man and a black man talking to him, closer to me, would be in sharp focus. The lighting indoors were incadescent bulbs or their fluorescent counterparts in Helsinki.

At home, during the day, I took many pictures of family members and fruit trees, and 10D is autofocusing correctly. So my 10D has what may be called a Jekyll and Hide syndrome--behaving properly in daylight but misbehaving under low light conditions.

Does anybody have this experience? Any suggestions?

[bnpndxtr]

I have noticed that the initial image on the LCD is low-res, probably the exif thumbnail directly. But keep watching it- after a few seconds the image is redrawn, but more clearly.

[DaveG]

I changed the AF on my 10D to back focus. That's where the middle button by my right thumb controls the focus not while the shutter button is pushed halfway down.

I did this at the reccomendation of some friends and I've discovered that it's very helpful. I'm ready to shoot and yet I don't have to worry about the AF hunting.

What might be happening with your example is that the poor camera doesn't know what to focus on. The black guy or the white guy. YOU know but the camera hunts back on forth. You could designate one of the rectagles to be your focus point (on the black guy say) and then you release the back focus button. That freezes the focus so you can recompose. The camera ignores the white guy and that should give you what YOU want not what the camera thinks that you want.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Lightandlife,

All I can say is although I get a large percentage of images in perfect focus,. there are still some that are not. In 98% of the cases where focus is off,. I can look at the lighting and composition, and say,.. "yeah,. that seems like a tough one" The Canon's tiny brain just couldn't cope.


I,m sure that you know to select an AF point (otherwise the camera seems to choose the AF point closest to you to focus on) ,. and I have no Idea what a "backfocus button" is, but it is a shame that you seem to be having such bad luck :(

I have no actual advise to offer other than keep working with it in different light situatuions and see what comes of it..

But I did want to say that yes,. there are times that I can not get it to focus correctly. This is not the norm,. but it happend just yesterday. A cormarant sitting atop a pier pylon,. in stunning sunset light with tall marsh gras as the background. I took about 15 shoots,. one of them was in focus. However that evening I took a total of about 200 shots,. and those specific 14 cormarant shots were the ONLY shots that weren't in crisp focus? So there was something about that composition,. be it the lighting, the busy background,. the 500mm focal length,. or more likely a combination of things.

???

[defordphoto]

Also, you need to keep in mind that auto focus is NOT perfect. Not on ANY camera and especially under low-light conditions. And it states that perfectly clear (pun intended) in the owner's manual.

Hopefully you will be able to get past being in test mode and take some real pictures rather than a pile of test pictures.

[defordphoto]

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
So there was something about that composition,. be it the lighting, the busy background,. the 500mm focal length,. or more likely a combination of things.


Yes, yes and yes. There are MANY things that can affect auto-focus. You'll learn what works and what doesn't when you learn the personality of the camera. Most of the time it's right on. Other times it gets confused.

[lightandlife]

But I did want to say that yes,. there are times that I can not get it to focus correctly. This is not the norm,. but it happend just yesterday.

Thanks everybody for quick responses. In case others may notice similar problems, I am reporting my case here. I am also trying to be scientific, in the hope that we will eventually find out what to avoid and how to prepare under various lighting conditions. I need to know whether only mine has this problem or many others have the same problem but are not aware of it.

1. About 400 pictures were taken under low light conditions, indoors without flash. More than half of indoor shots were not sharply focused. I used only central focusing point. In some of these cases (my impression is about 10%), I can clearly detect frontfocusing. For example, 4 persons were in a row at an angle. While I aimed at a person in the middle, the right most person closes to me was in sharp focus.

2. About 10 shots were taken outdoors. These pics were sharp. For instance, I could see age spots on the face of someone, which I did not notice before. Black persons were also in sharp focus outdoors.

3. A couple of shots were taken with strong backlight indoors. These were sharp. Perhaps the additional light helped the camera focus accurately.

4. 10D seems to have more trouble focusing on the black people than on the white people. I do not believe Canon designed a racist camera, but the color of skin may affect autofocusing under low light conditions, but not outdoors.
A black friend is waiting for some pics of his from me, but I don't know what to offer.

5. My strategy for the time being: Use autofocusing during the day or with a flash. For indoor shots, use manual focus. At least 10D is able to take pictures under low light conditions, while D30 was not.

Would appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

[clos]

Quick question?
What focus setting are you using?
The most reliable is standard focus as opposed to the servo modes.

The camera needs sufficient contrast to focus approriately. So if you have a dark figure in a dark setting then it may prove especially challenging for the camera. If the subject is in a light abundant setting but the area you are focusing on is filled with the same color (especially black and whites) with minimal Contrast then the camera may also have trouble focusing. try laying your focus point over high contrast areas and then recomposing.

Also, keep in mind that focusing ability is heavily dependant on the quality of the lens.

As someone said here in this string...it just takes time to get familiar with the characteristics of your camera.

Mine works great in low light without flash now that I learned how it behaves.

Good luck!

-Clos

[Vegas Poboy]

When shooting blacks or dark skinned people sometimes you need to overexpose your camera one to two stops. to get better detail, just as you would shooting film.
I also use the 10d and have a family of mixed skin color and has not had any problems yet. Best bet is to practice with a gray card and white balance before making judgements.
I've had my camera for three weeks and everything I've done so far is play, play & play. If you would like take a look @ my pics on pbase and see some of the items I'm learning with.
Good luck give it a little time before changing the camera again also chec the lens on a tripod.

[defordphoto]

lightandlife wrote:
I do not believe Canon designed a racist camera, but the color of skin may affect autofocusing under low light conditions, but not outdoors.
A black friend is waiting for some pics of his from me, but I don't know what to offer.


I can't believe you actually said that.

[LEC_D30]

You can also pop up the flash and let it do a burst of flashes by half pressing the shutter button. This will let the camera focus faster. When the camera is able to focus, then you can close the flash head and take the picture.

Regards,

lec_d30

[Derek Smith]

What is 'Back Focus'?

I cannot find reference to it in the guide.

Could someone please let me know where info of this tool resides.

Derek

[photography By Evangelos]

First off you can not use the 10D in low light with out the A/F beam of the flash unit and expect it to be spot on. The camera needs the infrared beam in low light to achieve focus. Or the in camera flash at least.

[DaveG]

Derek Smith wrote:
What is 'Back Focus'?

I cannot find reference to it in the guide.

Could someone please let me know where info of this tool resides.

Derek

Go into the Custom Functions and choose C. Fn-04, the Shutter button/AE lock button.

It defaults to 0 (zero). Choose 1.

Now the middle button on the back of the camera marked * (it's by your right thumb) will make the camera auto focus.

This is on page 146 of your instruction book.

[Webster]

I'm finding that I have the 500EX flash unit attached to my D60 more and more. In bright sunlight its fill flash is invaluable. In low light the AF assist it provides is so much less intrusive than the white on-camera assist that it's easily worth the hassle of having it on the camera, even when I have no intention of using the flash. I assume the same is true of the 10D.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Actually, the 10D has no assisit beam,. it uses the built in flashh to assisit in focus,. so it is even more intrusive.

[lightandlife]

photography By Evangelos wrote:
First off you can not use the 10D in low light with out the A/F beam of the flash unit and expect it to be spot on. The camera needs the infrared beam in low light to achieve focus. Or the in camera flash at least.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

Under low light conditions, you are saying I need to pop up the flash even if I have no intention to use flash, because it will emit infrared beam to get the correct focus? If so, I will try it next time.

I am reluctant to use flash because it is intrusive and interrupts the natural course of social reaction. I was using 85mm 1.2 L, and I thought I could get away with it and not use flash.

[PacAce]

lightandlife wrote:Let me see if I understand you correctly.

Under low light conditions, you are saying I need to pop up the flash even if I have no intention to use flash, because it will emit infrared beam to get the correct focus? If so, I will try it next time.

I am reluctant to use flash because it is intrusive and interrupts the natural course of social reaction. I was using 85mm 1.2 L, and I thought I could get away with it and not use flash.

If you pop up the flash, the flash WILL fire unless you override that with the use of CFn.05 so that only the focus assist "beam" is emitted. But in all honesty, if you are concerned about being intrusive by using a flash, then you DON'T want to use the internal flash for your focus assist "beam" because it is actually the flash firing in multiple short bursts.

A better bet is to use an external flash and just disable the firing of the flash via CFn.05. The red focus assist beam of an external flash is much more subtle.

[jimmyd]

bnpndxtr wrote:
I have noticed that the initial image on the LCD is low-res, probably the exif thumbnail directly. But keep watching it- after a few seconds the image is redrawn, but more clearly.


what you're seeing is the camera processing the jpg. it's not that it's suddenly being made better or clearer or sharper, it's just building the jpg and that takes a moment for the processor to accomplish.

[lightandlife]

Perhaps Canon should invent a camera that can emit an infra red or ultra violet beam to assist focusing.

There would be a huge demand for such a camera by spies. Obviously, spies would not want to use an internal or exteranal flash, if the flash is firing in multiple short burts. Such bursts will be detected, not only by monitoring cameras but also by naked eye. Such cameras will also help reduce crimes in the country.

I wonder if raising the ISO setting to 400 or 800 or a faster lens (50mm 1.0?) might help the camera focus better. Maybe this is a camera problem, not a lens problem.

[defordphoto]

Well now I'll actually offer some information here though I still find that comment unbelievable about Canon producing a racist camera. Puhleeeze.

Anyway...

When I'm shooting racecars and raceboats there are problems with the darker colored vehicles. Especially if they don't have a lot of contrasting colors in their livery.

With the sprint boats my friends drive a black boat and I get 20% less shots per run that I do with a high-contrast colored boat. And no, I don't mean white, just a brighter color. It takes longer for the camera (this is using AI Servo mode) to focus on the black boat than it does on the brighter boat. It's just a minute amount of time, but when the boat is moving 100mph, that's quite a distance.

I remember back in the early 90's when I was a writer for a racing website and not shooting at the time, our photographer was always complaining about the difficulty of auto-focusing on the darker cars with no contrasting livery.

So, my advice is to read the auto-focus section thoroughly and you will pass ona small section that tells you all that's been said here in just a few paragraphs:

Auto-focus is not perfect. Especially under low-light condition and/or with low-contrast subjects.

There are just some times where you may have to resort to the old-fashioned way (OMG!) of manually focusing your camera.

And that's just the way it is.

[lightandlife]

Vegas Poboy wrote:
When shooting blacks or dark skinned people sometimes you need to overexpose your camera one to two stops. to get better detail, just as you would shooting film.

If you would like take a look @ my pics on pbase and see some of the items I'm learning with.
Good luck give it a little time before changing the camera again also chec the lens on a tripod.

I checked your site earlier, and you have beautiful children. It must be the most exciting period of your life. I don't think my 10D would have any problem with your children. But I was trying take pictures of some people from Africa who had beautiful and really dark skin. It was the camera that was having a problem under low light conditions.

I won't be returning the camera. It is taking sharp pictures during the daylight, and I am happy with it. I think it is a matter of learning its limitations and work around them. If it is a problem unique to my 10D, I would return it to the shop, but I now think it is a common problem. Others must be experiencing a similar problem under low light conditions.

From about 400 shots I have taken under low lights, 10D seems to cry out loud, "Give me a little light, and I will take great pictures."

[lightandlife]

RFMSports wrote:
Well now I'll actually offer some information here though I still find that comment unbelievable about Canon producing a racist camera. Puhleeeze.


Auto-focus is not perfect. Especially under low-light condition and/or with low-contrast subjects.

There are just some times where you may have to resort to the old-fashioned way (OMG!) of manually focusing your camera.

And that's just the way it is.

Thanks, RFMSports, for your advice. If I offended you or anybody else, I apologize.

Your solution seems to make most sense. I would rather use manual focusing than an internal or external flash. It is much easier than carrying an external flash.

Perhaps this observation is related to your experience. It seems that under low light conditions, the image of a white person with black hair was somewhat sharper than that of a white person with blonde/brunette hair. I took 5 pics of a Nobel scientist, but I have nothing to show. 10D had problems. There was little contrast in the head shots.

[Littlebike]

RFMSports wrote:
Well now I'll actually offer some information here though I still find that comment unbelievable about Canon producing a racist camera. Puhleeeze.

If you read closely LightandLife wrote I do not believe Canon designed a racist camera, but the color of skin may affect autofocusing under low light conditions, but not outdoors.

Emphasis on do not.

And going by examples given by you you freely admit lowcontrast subjects - "my friends drive a black boat and I get 20% less shots per run " - cause focus issues. Another low contrast subject is a dark skinned person with dark hair.

LightandLife said absolutely nothing racist at all. He said, I do not believe Canon designed a racist camera.

I further feel he deserves an apology for such an implication.

[defordphoto]

No apology forthcoming. The word racist in itself was absolutely unnecessary in expressing the point.

And who died and made you moderator anyway?

[Littlebike]

Nobody made me moderator. I am not one to just sit by and see somebody get unjustly labeled or mistreated.

Just as you fealt the need to be offended/irritated by his comments, which i found entertaining given the circumstances, I was disturbed by your reaction to it.

[defordphoto]

Not as disturbed as I was with his reference to it. This is the 21st century and we don't need to be making references like that.

This conversation no longer serves any purpose.

[Webster]

RFMSports wrote:
There are just some times where you may have to resort to the old-fashioned way (OMG!) of manually focusing your camera.

And that's just the way it is

Right. Just adjust the focus until the two halves of the split image line up, or the little sparklies in the microprism go away.

Oh! There is no microprism or split image focusing aid. Must have meant the OLD old-fashioned way (OMG!).

Let's face it, manual focus on a SLR is a horrible experience without an optical focus aid in the viewfinder.

[vitoj]

I agree Webster. There are actually two problems: First that manual focus is difficult without a focusing aid. Second (and to me more important) it is difficult to know when the 10D will focus and when it won't. I agree with much of the above-that it is possible to learn which conditions are absolutely not conducive to good focusing. I seem to have another problem: that is that the focusing seems to be erratic! I can take two outdoor shots of same subject, same lighting, on a tripod and have one come out in focus and one out of focus. I would actually like to post an example of this for discussion and any help that you can offer but am not sure how to go about posting something on this forum. I am always willing to accept that the focusing problem could be operator error but in several cases I can't see how it can be anything other than the 10D focusing being inconsistent.

[lightandlife]

10D is like a blind bat, emiting "sonar" signals to estimate the distance, not a man with two eyes.

Even on a tripod, a camera would have difficulty focusing on a grill, for instance, because the camera would not know whether you are aiming at a hole between grids (which would be farther away than the grid lines) or at the grid lines.

If it is getting correct focuses, say 4 out of 5 times, I think it is acceptable. Under low light conditions, D30 wouldn't take pictures, but 10D will even if the focus is inaccurate. We just have to learn by trial and error. I now know when it will not.

[vitoj]

Thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying. Is there a way that i can send you three photos to illustrate what is bothering me? I can show you a picture of a pile of wood between, and somewhat behind, two trees. The focus point is on the wood pile. The wood pile is blurred and the tree trunks (about one foot in front) are sharp. In the photo that I took two minutes before, the wood pile is in focus. As far as I can see all settings are identical. This is what I mean when I say inconsistent.

[kellylipp]

I would like to hear from folks with 1D cameras: what are your focus stories? Do these very high-end cameras suffer the same limitations in the various lighting conditions described here?

I'm thinking so as the problems are the same: inadequate contrast at the margin causes these focusing systems problems.

Thanks,

Kelly

[CyberDyneSystems]

There are very few (if any) complaints on forums (any forums) about the 1D or 1Ds focus.

You can take this either of two ways.

As higher cost professional Cameras they perform better and thus there are no complaints,...

...or (and here comes the hate mail) As higher priced professional Cameras those that use them are getting out of them exactly what they want and thus there are no complaints....

Before you flame me,. I say that because it is another interpretation. NOT my opinion. I know that certain 10Ds have focus issues. What I don't know is if it is inany way unique in having focus issues.

No camera I have owned nailed the focus every time!

[lightandlife]

vitoj wrote:
Is there a way that i can send you three photos to illustrate what is bothering me? I can show you a picture of a pile of wood between, and somewhat behind, two trees. ... This is what I mean when I say inconsistent.

Could you get an account from PBase.com? It is free at least for 30 days. I would be happy to look at your pics.