A "pro photog" without a clue...

[RebelXT]

Hi there,

I have a very interesting story for you all.

On Saturday night, I went to an engagement party of a wife's cousin...

They had hired a "professional" photog to take their photos.

The party took place in a semi-to-well lit area. There were mirrors on each wall and the ceiling was painted blue with white clouds...

So, I was sitting at the table and observing the way this guy was taking photos. Firstly, he was using a 10D, 24-70mm Canon L & 580EX flash with a omni-bounce diffuser.

From the get-go this guy was bouncing the flash all over the ceiling... :confused: Whatever the pose, his flash head was tilted up (and he had the diffuser on it :rolleyes: ) Since he was diffusing (by bouncing) a diffused light (due to omni-bounce) you could actually see that no light fell on the people's faces...

He should've just switched off the flash...

Next he decided to do family shots... He positioned the family near the main table & stepped back. Now in between them, on the ceiling, there was a disco ball. So, with his flash aimed at the ceiling, this clown started snapping away.

You can guess what happened next. All the light bounced back from the disco ball, blinding everyone that was sitting behind him, while the people in the photo got absolutely no light.

To top it all off, during the cake cutting, the couple had decided to use stainless steel champagne glasses... So, the knowledgeable pro that he is, he directed the flash towards the couple, hence getting nasty reflections from the glasses...

The faults that I observed go on and on & I was utterly disgusted by his effort...

For someone that is supposably working as a pro for years, this guy was absolutely clueless... NO IDEA!!!

[newgenphoto]

Thats fuuny.... sounds like they should've hired you!!

[bpuppy]

Did you see the shots? Don't poo poo if you haven't seen the shots. If he has his ISO high enough, the ceiling bounce would work fine ... and the omnibounce throws quite a bit of light forward, really.

The other stuff sounds amateurish, though.

[newgenphoto]

LOL... bpuppy said it for me... I was think the exact same thing bpuppy. : )

[mizuno]

The most disturbing thing about your whole post was the fact that someone decided to deck out a function room with mirror walls and painted clouds ont the ceiling. :shock:

[PIXI_666]

lol, wow! I am a newbie (To wedding photography), but the general principles of photography are quite easy to figure out yourself. If your a pro you should know what your doing, and if not, at least an amateur or hobby-ist would know this stuff?
To be honest, i was bouncing my flash off the ceiling for a reception only 2 weeks ago, but there were fairy lights and a real ambient light, so i wanted to be able to take the shot without a tripod. I bounced the light (ANd the bounce card) from the ceiling for 1sec and the shots turned out great, they were ambient with the fairy lights still beautiful, it wasn't too dark because of the slower shutter - and it didn't blur because the flash lightened the subjects.
LOL@Disco ball effect...someone should have said something, like "OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Geeeeez watch out your blinding me back here!" lol

I do feel sorry for the guy though....i dont have ONLY nasty comments for him, because to be honest i was once like this and knew NOTHING....but then again i didnt claim to be a pro and i still dont.....

hmmm

Del

[imager67]

I guess the photographer should have been using direct flash at f/8 with a hasselblad setup and had the guest all line up straight for every shot and then do something really cool like wear funny hats and sunglasses. Oh and shoot film!

I bounce, diffuse, and angle, the flash whatever I can as much as possible when shooting an event. Using a stophen, lightshpere, or good old index card can provide the needed light modification I am looking for, anything except direct flash. Nothing kills a photograph quicker than direct flash.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

Speaking of wondering how his shots came out, that reminds me of how people will sometimes actually follow me around behind me, and peer over my shoulder to see my shots (although they can't, because my review is off). One of my favorite tricks, since I use a Custom Brackets system that holds the flash waaaay up, is to crank the flash head all the way around, and hit that shutter! They go away pretty quickly. :lol:

[TooManyHobbies]

Did you see the shots?

I agree. Of course some of it did sound a little screwy.

Using a diffuser with bounce has worked for me though - especially when trying to light a larger depth evenly. Angle has a big effect and the diffuser helps get larger coverage if you have the power, which the 580 does.

[newgenphoto]

Speaking of wondering how his shots came out, that reminds me of how people will sometimes actually follow me around behind me, and peer over my shoulder to see my shots (although they can't, because my review is off). One of my favorite tricks, since I use a Custom Brackets system that holds the flash waaaay up, is to crank the flash head all the way around, and hit that shutter! They go away pretty quickly. :lol:

Classic!! Happens to me ALLLLL the time. I always get the, "Hey dude, nice camera. Care to talk to me for about 30 minutes and describe everything it does in full detail??" guy following me...

[Ronald S. Jr.]

and the classic....

"..is that thing digital?"

or even better "..what's the zoom on that thing?"

[newgenphoto]

LMAO!

Thats really digital?? WOW!!

I'm not usually this sassy on the boards but I'm in one of my moods tonight I guess. Actually got a weekend off FINALLY!!

[TooManyHobbies]

Classic: When carrying around the big zoom I love the whispers ... "Now that's a serious camera!"

[JaertX]

I wonder if I can put "professional photographer" on my business card, as long as I put it in quotes? heh heh.

Too bad for the guy, really. Like it or not, perception is a big part of this business. I've had people tell me I'm a great photographer at the end of a couple of shoots now...before they've ever even seen prints! I guess it's a compliment? For sure I know the way I conduct myself while working will be an asset as I become better. But, I have more respect for someone that acts like a loon and produces amazing work.

[newgenphoto]

I wonder if I can put "professional photographer" on my business card, as long as I put it in quotes? heh heh.

Too bad for the guy, really. Like it or not, perception is a big part of this business. I've had people tell me I'm a great photographer at the end of a couple of shoots now...before they've ever even seen prints! I guess it's a compliment? For sure I know the way I conduct myself while working will be an asset as I become better. But, I have more respect for someone that acts like a loon and produces amazing work.

Yes...perception - Belive it or not, I've gotten quite a few bookings just from the way my team and I "interact" with the bridal party, guest,etc.... Can not count how many times someone has said, "You guys are awesome, can I get a card??"

[TooManyHobbies]

He could be an ok amature photographer, but a genius at PS. You never know. Of course, I've seen the results of many professionals and were amazed that they got paid. How hard is it to focus outside in bright light?

[RebelXT]

Did you see the shots? Don't poo poo if you haven't seen the shots. If he has his ISO high enough, the ceiling bounce would work fine ... and the omnibounce throws quite a bit of light forward, really.

The other stuff sounds amateurish, though.

yeah, as a matter of fact I saw a few shots & they were quite dark...

Because of the blue ceiling, the people's faces looked COLD & DARK...

Kind of like shooting arount 6am on a cold winter morning...

The guy kneeled down to shoot a bouquet of flowers close up(which was perfectly lit) & still tried to bounce his flash of the ceiling...

I even saw him on a few occasions twiddling with the camera settings & scratching his head... The bloke was a total tool!...

[mizuno]

yeah, as a matter of fact I saw a few shots & they were quite dark...

Because of the blue ceiling, the people's faces looked COLD & DARK...

Kind of like shooting arount 6am on a cold winter morning...

The guy kneeled down to shoot a bouquet of flowers close up(which was perfectly lit) & still tried to bounce his flash of the ceiling...

I even saw him on a few occasions twiddling with the camera settings & scratching his head... The bloke was a total tool!...

So when are you going to post up some of your work?

Or are you content to just take the mickey out of someone else's?

[RebelXT]

So when are you going to post up some of your work?

Or are you content to just take the mickey out of someone else's?

I'm not a pro yet & I dont go around telling people that I am...

My work will be posted very soon... I'm building my website as we speak...

I'm not taking the mickey out of anyone, I'm just stating that there are people out there who walk the walk, but cant talk the talk...

If you get what i'm saying...

[mizuno]

I'm not a pro yet & I dont go around telling people that I am...

My work will be posted very soon... I'm building my website as we speak...

I'm not taking the mickey out of anyone, I'm just stating that there are people out there who walk the walk, but cant talk the talk...

If you get what i'm saying...

You don't have conclusive evidence of that, from what I have read.

You were criticizing his method without seeing his results. We all have slightly different methods, but the proof is in the pudding. If he can supply his customers with shots they are happy with, he has done his job, regardless of whether you approve of how he went about it.

If you get what I'm saying... :cool:

[Paul Gerrard]

I can only say If he`s been around for a long time, he must be doing something right
Remember 2 things
1 He is the artist
2 He has to eat

Sometimes we all think "i could have done that better" (Hindsight is a wonderful gift)

[elTwitcho]

I find the amateur photographers are so often the quickest to criticize the pro photographers in everything they do. "I could have done better" means absolutely nothing, only "I did better, look" is going to carry any weight. It also seems there's alot of people who think just knocking the professionals and wanting them to be really crap will somehow bring that level of professional closer to them, more attainable. Kind of like "if this guy is a pro, and he's so crap, I could be a pro pretty soon too".

Don't be so quick to judge until you've seen the finished product. And don't make a habit of slamming other people's work so readily, you'll never improve your own work by rationalizing why everyone else is as bad as you rather than figuring out why you're not as good as them.

Speaking in generalities and not necessarily about this particular situation, of course :)

[tim]

I'd not criticise someones photos without seeing them myself, although you can comment on his conduct. Maybe he knows something you don't. For example, the way you described the omnibounce is exactly the way it's meant to be used - at 45 degrees or so and bounced. Some light goes directly from the flash head to the person reducing shadows, while some of the light is bounced. Maybe he wanted a smaller aperture or lower ISO than ambient would give him. I also use a flash for the cake cutting, there's almost never enough ambient light, but in that situation i'd bounce it like he was doing earlier.

[song4themoon]

I would wait for the results too before I get into it. The technique doesnt matter if the results are great, Who knows what he did and how it looked. It may have not been the "normally correct" way but it might have worked. I am curious to see the results though!

[RebelXT]

I'd not criticise someones photos without seeing them myself, although you can comment on his conduct. Maybe he knows something you don't. For example, the way you described the omnibounce is exactly the way it's meant to be used - at 45 degrees or so and bounced. Some light goes directly from the flash head to the person reducing shadows, while some of the light is bounced. Maybe he wanted a smaller aperture or lower ISO than ambient would give him. I also use a flash for the cake cutting, there's almost never enough ambient light, but in that situation i'd bounce it like he was doing earlier.

Yes Tim,

I know how the omni-bounce is supposed to be used, and he was bouncing it at 90 deg, not 45... So straight above himself onto a light blue ceiling?!

I saw a few photos & compared to some of the photos people post here, he was way off...

The place was well lit for most of the night, so from what I've read and learned in the past year or so(and what people post here) he could've gone with ISO1600 and F2.8-F5.6, cause there was planty of light...

Ah well, each to their own, I suppose...:cool:

[subtle_spectre]

The proof is in the p...........ixures.

[sapearl]

There is a time and place for direct flash, just as bounce, diffusion and available light all have their appointed moments.... not to mention that the 'blad makes a nice little point and shoot camera. ;) And since I can't afford the digital back, I was limited to film.:razz:

The black ceiling was 40' overhead in the first shot so bouncing was out. In the second shot I looked and looked but couldn't find that darn ceiling.....hmmmm - maybe it was painted blue?

I guess the photographer should have been using direct flash at f/8 with a hasselblad setup................ Nothing kills a photograph quicker than direct flash.

[Curtis N]

I have seen the sto-fen used in situations where it would do absolutely no good. But if the flash only provides enough light to change the exposure settings by one stop, a person could go from (for example) ISO 1600 to 800 (less noise) or stop down the aperture (better depth of field). A blue ceiling, and mixing ambient light with flash, can create white balance issues, but there's more than one way to get the job done.

[sapearl]

One thing I found out a long time ago is that there are days when I definately could have done better, just as there are certainly days that I could have done much worse. You go in with a great attitude but fate doesn't always want to cooperate.

Skill, timing, experience, just the right light, a happy bride.... these all go into the mix. And if you are fortunate and the lens gods are smiling, all of these will merge into a beautiful album.

I find the amateur photographers are so often the quickest to criticize the pro photographers in everything they do. "I could have done better" means absolutely nothing, only "I did better, look" is going to carry any weight. ..........:)

[J.T.]

I bounce flash up over my shoulder and into ceiling all the time, even at high iso if need be(be it I am no "Professional"), it is actually a good method imo, I took some shots of my wife strictly doing what you are saying he did , bouncing up and back into the wall and ceiling. I think the pics turned out ok( they are in the CC forum area) The fact that you are so shocked that someone would bounce off a ceiling simply spotlights the fact you havent explored all the options of flash use yourself.Bottom line even at high ISO bouncing off ceilings works great imo.

[pristic]

I have seen a 'pro' doing the 'worst' things (or so I thought) just odd, unusual and 'breaking all the rules' she showed me one of the pics in camera and I said 'Nice' and walked away and told my fiancee (she's nuts... the pics are absolute crap, lets not get her for our wedding)
Well, when we saw the couple after the wedding 'me being the 'best' in the family for photo/video' I looked at her pics. ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! Would hire her in a flash (no pun intended)

Even seeing the pics in their camera doesnt help. Things can be changed, altered, corrected, etc in post.

Having said that, everyone should give the guy a break.... I think he gets the message (or at least should by now)

Peter.

[zacker]

i love all the non pros complaining about the pros. I guess its the whole, what constitutes a pro? is it someone who makes their sole living at photography? or someone whith more than a year of taking nice shots of birds and barns and their kids and pets? or is it someone who has taken photography in school? or maybe the guy with all expensive "L" lenses and a pro body? Id hate to go to a job and have a non pro critique me and my shooting..thats just rude!
-zacker-

[JaertX]

sapearl - those shots are amazing! I know you weren't posting them for comment, but really awesome...do you teach? You caught perfect expressions in the first (with film even!!) and I could be wrong but there isn't a hassie with a "spray and pray" mode, is there? heh heh (love the rose petal shadows on the curtain in the background)

The second one just rocks...not only how it's lit in the back, but how well everything is exposed. Did you meter for the building, set your exposure for that, and then flash the couple to get them properly exposed?

Zacker - What constitutes a pro? Come on, that's been answered a million times. Pro's shoot Nikons. Sheesh. heh heh. (okay, but seriously...maybe hasselblads)

[sapearl]

Thank you Jason - I appreciate your comments. I figure that anything that gets posted is fair game, so the input is welcome. Time to get brave and post my money where my mouth is ;) .

I have one of the older manual focus 'blads, so I prefocussed 10' out and fired when the couple reached that point, using the infamous f8 :D setting in that first shot. Shutter speed was 1/30, film was ASA 400 Portra NC. I was very pleased with the way the rose petals seemed to "arrange themselves" and didn't even have to do any sharpenning of the subsequent scanned neg.

Perhaps one day I may teach.... but for the time being I move through life as a telecom network engineer. That is merely what I do for a living - this is what I love to do in life.

sapearl - those shots are amazing! I know you weren't posting them for comment, but really awesome...do you teach? You caught perfect expressions in the first (with film even!!) and I could be wrong but there isn't a hassie with a "spray and pray" mode, is there? heh heh (love the rose petal shadows on the curtain in the background)

[JaertX]

ah...the "F8 and be there" rule! Hopkins would be proud.

Nice work and thanks for the info!

[sapearl]

The second shot was taken at about 5:15 on 12/3/05, the same day (B&G like the time on on the clock tower). Temp was 28F and the young couple had heavy coats on until the last second when I had the best man pull them off. We had to work fast to avoid frostbite and hail stone sized goose bumps on the bride. I'd previously gotten an incident meter reading (for the bulding) using an old Sekonic L-398, set the aperture for f8 (yup, like that f8) set the Metz strobe for f8 for the B&G, and manually set the shutter for 1/2 second, tripod mounted, to pick up all the coloring of the courthouse.

The color of the courthouse is actually quite accurate - I did not add any saturation to it. I burned an odd light here and there, but did little. Most of my effort was on the bride's dress and their faces as those tended to throw back a bit of light.

All of this was done back when I couldn't even spell dSLR, about three months prior to buying my 5D. Of course all of you helped me out with that decision, providing a lot of excellent and very timely advice. My biggest challenge now is trying to migrate my "analog" skills over to the digital world.

sapearl - The second one just rocks...not only how it's lit in the back, but how well everything is exposed. Did you meter for the building, set your exposure for that, and then flash the couple to get them properly exposed?

[MrTED]

There is a time and place for direct flash, just as bounce, diffusion and available light all have their appointed moments.... not to mention that the 'blad makes a nice little point and shoot camera. ;) And since I can't afford the digital back, I was limited to film.:razz:

The black ceiling was 40' overhead in the first shot so bouncing was out. In the second shot I looked and looked but couldn't find that darn ceiling.....hmmmm - maybe it was painted blue?

You are too funny sapearl... that was great.

Some people here might want to criticise me as well then... picture this... I am outside, very cloudy day, close up of bride and groom (real close), using a beautiful ambient light. Me... the idiot "pro", decided to bounce flash 90 degrees with my catchlight card up...

Why... not to light the subject, but to get catchlight in the eyes. Most of the critics watching would have laughed at me trying to bounce of the "blue ceiling", but I thought I would give it a go and it worked for me on this occasion...

Remember... the first person to be creative with a technique or process... is always the outcast... then when the results are in and it looks great, suddenly there is an influx of people doing the same...

Just my thoughts...

Nathan

[zacker]

Zacker - What constitutes a pro? Come on, that's been answered a million times. Pro's shoot Nikons. Sheesh. heh heh. (okay, but seriously...maybe hasselblads)

lol... you're wrong, its the guy with the suit and the brand new DSLR and big lens and knows what Aperture is!
-zacker-

[Photorebel]

Id hate to go to a job and have a non pro critique me and my shooting..thats just rude!
-zacker-

Just a note to say some photographers (attending, not shooting the wedding) do have manners. I found the best way to get on a pros side..is stay out of their way. Let them work. I just assume that they don't need or want my advice or help.
I've NEVER had a pro get mad at me for NOT meddling.:)
And sometimes, I can learn a lot just by watching.

[pristic]

Just a note to say some photographers (attending, not shooting the wedding) do have manners. I found the best way to get on a pros side..is stay out of their way. Let them work. I just assume that they don't need or want my advice or help.
I've NEVER had a pro get mad at me for NOT meddling.:)
And sometimes, I can learn a lot just by watching.

No way. Bad Advice!
I recommend that anyone walk up to the pro and talk to them. Tell them there aer better ways of getting shots. Remind them that they need to check their light, meter, etc. Tell them that being a pro means they can be interrupted by you, handle the paparazzi (family, friends) and remain cool and calm.

Oh, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS tell the pro to show you their shot and histogram cause you can help.

Peter.

PS: Oh, how could I forget, ALWAYS remind the pro photog to stay out of the video guys way... otherwise he will ruin the video.

They will be very thankful :lol:

[Photorebel]

No way. Bad Advice!
I recommend that anyone walk up to the pro and talk to them. Tell them there aer better ways of getting shots. Remind them that they need to check their light, meter, etc. Tell them that being a pro means they can be interrupted by you, handle the paparazzi (family, friends) and remain cool and calm.

Oh, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS tell the pro to show you their shot and histogram cause you can help.

Peter.

PS: Oh, how could I forget, ALWAYS remind the pro photog to stay out of the video guys way... otherwise he will ruin the video.

They will be very thankful :lol:

You just like to make things more interesting at weddings don't you?:lol:

Reminds me of a wedding I did for a friend/co-worker once. Very nice lady, asked me to photograph her daughters wedding. It was sort of a favor, and I didn't make money (she wasn't too well off, but a super nice lady..and I figured..I could use the experience.)
Well, I got experience, alright. A certain lwoman, with a this HUGE hairdo...and and a video camera that looked like a suitcase with a lens, made it a point to stand in front of me, whenever she could. Particulary during the ceremony.
On top of that my camera quit working, my flash quit working (I had backups). It was a wonder I got any photos at all, much less ones of decent quality.
It was not an enjoyable experience.

[Steve Parr]

I was going to shoot a wedding for some friends this July. I'm not a "wedding photographer". I guess I should probably just decline, huh?

You can say what you want about what the guy is doing; how he shoots, but the bottom line is that the guy is working...

[Wedding Shooter]

Well said Steve.

[sapearl]

Was this something you were considering doing from start to finish for pay? I can understand your concern. Perhaps you may want to offer doing informal candids at the reception - low impact, low pressure stuff ;) . This will get your hand into some of the work and a little experience under the belt.

And yes, you are right. Work is work. Some of my contracts are small inexpensive packages... but a small paycheck is always better than no paycheck :D (I still have one in college).

I was going to shoot a wedding for some friends this July. I'm not a "wedding photographer". I guess I should probably just decline, huh?

You can say what you want about what the guy is doing; how he shoots, but the bottom line is that the guy is working...