My first band shoot-How did I do?

[queenbee288]

It was very dark, I had to use iso 3200 the entire time. They were incredibly noisy. I used neat image. This was my first time doing any time of very low light shots. I used a tripod, monopod and sometimes hand held with elbows supported on the back of a chair. How did I do?

iso 3200, 2.8, 1/30
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68327549-M.jpg

iso 3200. 2.8. 1/50
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68327571-M.jpg

iso 3200. 3.2. 1/20
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68405981-M.jpg

iso 3200. 2.8, 1/15 Yes that is correct 1/15th!
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68399714-M.jpg

[queenbee288]

A few more....

iso 3200, 2.8, 1/30
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68327618-M.jpg

iso 3200, 2.8, 1/40
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68327626-M.jpg

Iso 3200, 2.8, 1/60
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68327608-M.jpg

[DwightMcCann]

Considering the lighting you did EXCELLENT! Finally, someone who knows enough to use a tripod shooting bands. Yup, I am stunned. Would have been nice if you had gotten all of them at once facing you. In almost all people pictures the most important thing is FACES, Faces, faces. Also, a little explanation is always useful. You know, things like their name!!!! The venue name and location? Type of music? Heck, even their names.

So, there are a few little things that might work better. I would like a wide angle of the whole venue/stage. I would like close ups of faces without microphone stuck in mouth. If they are friends then I would ask them to occasionally look at you and smile (I know these guys have a hard time smiling) or at least make eye contact ... I do this with a couple of professional groups I shoot and even they find it hard. But I have noticed that the world class performers almost always make sure they give a few good hard looks at any photographers and often with smiles ... it gives a personal closeness look to the images that fans really like. Oh, and you might want to suggest that these guys let their mothers dress them because they clearly can't do it themselves! :-)

[Steve Parr]

Considering the lighting you did EXCELLENT! Finally, someone who knows enough to use a tripod shooting bands. Yup, I am stunned. Would have been nice if you had gotten all of them at once facing you. In almost all people pictures the most important thing is FACES, Faces, faces. Also, a little explanation is always useful. You know, things like their name!!!! The venue name and location? Type of music? Heck, even their names.

So, there are a few little things that might work better. I would like a wide angle of the whole venue/stage. I would like close ups of faces without microphone stuck in mouth. If they are friends then I would ask them to occasionally look at you and smile (I know these guys have a hard time smiling) or at least make eye contact ... I do this with a couple of professional groups I shoot and even they find it hard. But I have noticed that the world class performers almost always make sure they give a few good hard looks at any photographers and often with smiles ... it gives a personal closeness look to the images that fans really like. Oh, and you might want to suggest that these guys let their mothers dress them because they clearly can't do it themselves! :-)

I'd echo what Dwight has to say, with the only exception that I prefer the performers not look at the camera. Just a different style and approach than Dwight's, I guess, but I like it when I can shoot the performer as he's concentrating on the task at hand.

Nice shots for such low lighting. I particularly like #2...

[DwightMcCann]

Well, I didn't mean to ALWAYS look at the camera ... but having one or two with the eye contact can be valuable ... those are more likely to be used for making B&W prints for autographs and do serve to break up the rest in a multi-image exhibit.

[Steve Parr]

Well, I didn't mean to ALWAYS look at the camera ... but having one or two with the eye contact can be valuable ... those are more likely to be used for making B&W prints for autographs and do serve to break up the rest in a multi-image exhibit.

True enough; excellent point.

That's why you're "The Professor", and I'm not!

[queenbee288]

Thanks guys for the comments and suggestions. I have a bunch more but haven't processed them all yet. I shot raw. I agree about the dress. This is just a little hole in the wall bar in the back of a bowling alley.The band is called "Hard Sunday".They are just a local band but are getting ready to make a cd. The lead singer, the one with all the tatoos..is the boyfriend of a coworker of mine and agreed to let me take pictures. I was surprised after talking to him that he is in the pharmacy program at the university of Kentucky and is only 3 classes away from a Ph.D. in chemistry. Yeah we had a laugh about the band pharmacy connection. LOL. I did a photo shoot with him the previous day. Here are a few of them if you are interested.. You are right, it is hard to get them to smile.
http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68100418-M.jpg

http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68053895-M-1.jpg

http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68058168-M.jpg

http://queenbee288.smugmug.com/photos/68088253-M.jpg

[spencer87]

the first shots are good, especially considering the circumstances.

the black & white shots are awesome, esp. the last one.

[earplugsrequired]

Why do you need to get them to smile? It's rock and roll.. It's all an image thing and seriously I would rather have them in their element than doing something "fake"... The only time I have ever had band boys not do their "rock" faces was in personal photos.

Nice shots though for your first time. Lighting can be our friend or our foe!

[DwightMcCann]

Why do you need to get them to smile? It's rock and roll.. It's all an image thing and seriously I would rather have them in their element than doing something "fake".

C'mon, Ears, smiling is hardly "fake". Are you suggesting that they are unhappy when they are playing? This is the same sort of attitude that keeps nude models from smiling ... don't want anyone to think they are having fun! Come to think of it, I never thought of Rock n' Roll as being all that serious. :rolleyes: Well, I like smiling band boys even if it makes them uncomfortable. ;)

[earplugsrequired]

C'mon, Ears, smiling is hardly "fake". Are you suggesting that they are unhappy when they are playing? This is the same sort of attitude that keeps nude models from smiling ... don't want anyone to think they are having fun! Come to think of it, I never thought of Rock n' Roll as being all that serious. :rolleyes: Well, I like smiling band boys even if it makes them uncomfortable. ;)

it depends on the music and the genre etc... I'm not suggesting that they are unhappy when playing but a goth boy singing about death etc and smiling just isn't right.. :D Some of the singer/songwriters smile when they are on stage and yes I do get smiles from the "band boys" when they are on stage.. some of those boys that I know like to embarass me too..

I'm off on a tangent.. sorry.. just got home from a show and horrible red lights the entire set.. rough crowd too..

[Steve Parr]

just got home from a show and horrible red lights the entire set...

Oh, man, I feel your pain.

Nothing spells "wasted night out" quite like red lighting.

Dwight's favorite is the magenta variety...

[20DNewbie]

Those are awesome pics, I really need to get out and play more w/3200 once I get something to clean them up.

On a side note, I don't know whos' been in your gear bag, but they seem to have put a bunch of little stickers on your lenses. :lol:

Thanks for sharing and inspiring those of us(those of us being me) that aren't photographers, along with the everybody else that posts pics.

[DwightMcCann]

Dwight's favorite is the magenta variety...

God, I love when you talk romantic, Steve! :-) Yes, Magenta is a challenge!

[Steve Parr]

Yes, Magenta is a challenge!

That's like saying the Pope is a Catholic.

I loathe Magenta, in all its' forms...

[DwightMcCann]

So, Steve, have you tried using Custom White Balance with magenta? :-)

[Steve Parr]

So, Steve, have you tried using Custom White Balance with magenta? :-)

I've successfully avoided Magenta thus far, thankyouverymuch!

[Greg P.]

Maybe its just me, but a tripod? for me, thats not even considered, im constantly moving around the stage, getting up on amps and such, and usually within 3 feet of the band member im concentrating on at the moment.

As for your photos, the color is rockin, but the over all composition is kinda boring, as are the movements of the musicians. its important to time your shots to capture the best movement. But for your first time, they are def. good.

[queenbee288]

Maybe its just me, but a tripod? for me, thats not even considered, im constantly moving around the stage, getting up on amps and such, and usually within 3 feet of the band member im concentrating on at the moment.

As for your photos, the color is rockin, but the over all composition is kinda boring, as are the movements of the musicians. its important to time your shots to capture the best movement. But for your first time, they are def. good.

Greg, I agree that the composition is boring. In my defense... They were a boring band to shoot. There wasn't much movement to capture. They just kind of stood around. That is why I tried to capture some of the interaction between them to make up for it. The lead singer was sick. That could have had something to do with it. Also it was a very small stage in a corner, not much room to move around and I don't know them well enought to climb up on their amps.:lol:

[Greg P.]

Ill def. give you that, if its a boring band, theres nothing you can do, all the composition and pretty colors in the world wont help. ive been there, so the solution is, dont even waste time on boring bands, just shoot the ones who rock.

if you are using a tripod tho, i suggest you lose it. manueverability is key.

[Steve Parr]

Ill def. give you that, if its a boring band, theres nothing you can do, all the composition and pretty colors in the world wont help. ive been there, so the solution is, dont even waste time on boring bands, just shoot the ones who rock.

My experience is that the ones who are boring are every bit as willing to pay as those who rock. If I'm shooting a band, there's a good chance I'm not shooting them because I like the music...

if you are using a tripod tho, i suggest you lose it. manueverability is key.

Just wondering: Have you seen any of Dwight's work?

[narlus]

on the use of tripods

Just wondering: Have you seen any of Dwight's work?

i think it comes to personal situations...sounds like Dwight's got a proper space carved out and works directly w/ the venue...i'm just freelancing on my own, getting no special dispensation anywhere, and standing shoulder to shoulder in the crowd. there's no way a tripod would work for me, or even a monopod.

[Steve Parr]

on the use of tripods



i think it comes to personal situations...sounds like Dwight's got a proper space carved out and works directly w/ the venue...i'm just freelancing on my own, getting no special dispensation anywhere, and standing shoulder to shoulder in the crowd. there's no way a tripod would work for me, or even a monopod.

I'm in the same boat that you are. I've only been in one situation where using a tripod would've been an option.

It just seemed as though you were dismissing the use of a tripod. I'd certainly use one if I could...

[queenbee288]

Ill def. give you that, if its a boring band, theres nothing you can do, all the composition and pretty colors in the world wont help. ive been there, so the solution is, dont even waste time on boring bands, just shoot the ones who rock.

if you are using a tripod tho, i suggest you lose it. manueverability is key.

Greg, thanks for the comments and suggestions. This was my first so I didn't know they were going to be boring. And It would't have mattered. I didn't even know what kind of results I would get in the low lighting. I appreciated them giving me the opportunity to practice on them. It was not a paid shoot, it was just for practice to see what I could do. Although I do expect them to buy some of the prints. I can't pick and choose at this point and this may lead to something else for me as the lead singer plays with another band who is more active. The other band is touring in Spain right now but will be back in town in July and this boring band is going to hook me up with them and it could lead to some paid work. Maybe even an album cover.

As for the tripod...Did you notice that I had shutter speeds as low as 1/15? What kind of results do you get without a tripod at 1/15th?

[narlus]

As for the tripod...Did you notice that I had shutter speeds as low as 1/15? What kind of results do you get without a tripod at 1/15th?

speaking from experience, not very good ones! which is why i use a faster lens. ;)

[Steve Parr]

speaking from experience, not very good ones! which is why i use a faster lens. ;)

Now THAT'S something we can agree on!

[kmb]

As for the tripod...Did you notice that I had shutter speeds as low as 1/15? What kind of results do you get without a tripod at 1/15th?

In my experience, you won't be getting consistent results no matter how well you support your camera at those shutter speeds (but then, I'm not very good at capturing the "peak" of the movement yet, so that's my problem probably) I have lots of pictures of sharp microphones and blurry performers taken with my IS lens (without a tripod) in the range of 1/6 - 1/25 s (and faster). I have one reasonably sharp shot (http://bjorklid.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-279) taken at 70 mm (x1.6) and 1/6s, without tripod, with IS, though.

[DwightMcCann]

Yes, my relationships are with the venues where I shoot. And both venues generally appeal to an older, more sedate audience who tend to sit in their seats or dance a bit off to the side until they are released by security for the last two or three songs to get belly up to the stage at the casino. So, while not having my relationship with the bands tends to keep me off the stage and limit my shooting time, being "part of" the venues is a big help. I have a great deal of empathy for the media shooters whose relationship is for the most part with neither. This is one of the big reasons that I try to act as a Welcoming Committee of One for media photographers who come to shoot at the casino, which has included loaning batteries and lenses and reviewing the good shooting spots.

It is certainly true that shooting off a tripod does not lessen the problem of subject movement at the slow speeds at which we tend to have to shoot, but that is usually the lesser of the two movement difficulties, with camera shake being significantly worse even with IS lenses. And to be honest, now that I have two bodies I have one on a tripod and one in my hand, which gives me the flexibility of both approaches.

[Greg P.]

See dwight, in that situation, i still wouldnt use a pod, but i can see why you might. Im never "in" with the venue, and im never in the crowd either, which is usually rockin away just like me, im always on stage, on the sides of the stage, or right in front of it, and im up high, down low, hardly EVER lookin through the viewfinder, and im shooting at about 1/6 sec with just the built in pop up flash, but i have ways of dulling it enough so that it looks like im not using a flash.

I checked out Dwights website, and although the photos are exposed great and the colors and great and the emotion and movement is great, its just lacking the kind of intensity that i try to put into my work, maybe i dont, but thats what i go for.

What About Frank? with nikon d70, pop up flash, 1/6 sec, 3.5 aper. take into mind that while i shoot, im rockin so F'en hard, and not really stoppin to shoot, i just shoot as i go, with no "focus" or goal.

[DwightMcCann]

I checked out Dwights website, and although the photos are exposed great and the colors and great and the emotion and movement is great, its just lacking the kind of intensity that i try to put into my work, maybe i dont, but thats what i go for.
Does "intensity" mean "shutter drag" and "motion blur"?

Here's the issue: my casino subjects generally haul hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment around as part of their shows. They often bring their own lights and LD and tons of stage equipment. One group brought a whole light screen made of tens of thousands of LEDs that ran over $1 million just for that device which could display moving images like a TV. They work very hard to produce a complete performance the way they want it presented, including the "intensity". The venue itself has almost $2 million in lights and sound equipment. They are simply not interested in seeing "shutter drag" images or flash exposures. They want to see something as near to what they have invested their time, money and talent in creating as possible. If the lack of motion blurring and shutter drag techniques doesn't convery "intensity" then that's just the way it is. So, while I, too, can wave my camera around and shoot with flash, my clients wouldn't pay me for that. OTOH, if I was a little band without any investment in production values I might like "shutter drag" with flash because it does create a kind of "artsy" flavor in a low budget setting. If this was all I could get with what I had then I would have no choice. I understand that. I also shoot in a venue with crappy lighting. I still use a tripod for one body. I also use flash but rarely care for the images as it destroys the intensity and emotion. I do very little with motion blur. The images are not as artsy as yours but you can see into the eyes of the artists and see the sweat and effort and emotion in their faces rather than a blur of pretty color eye-candy. My images reflect the performer and performance rather than making swirling images of light trails that may be appealing to the eye as abstracts but have almost nothing to do with the performance. At least that is my take on it.

[Greg P.]

Dwight,

without the "drag" its just a photo, the "drag" creates a firey soul. I try not to overdo it tho, and youll notice that even tho there are crazy amounts of color and craziness, theres some order to it, you can see their faces. Its different, its something you cannot see with your own two eyes, and it adds to the intensity of the show I want people to see these photos and say "WOW, i shoulda been at that show!".

And dont get me wrong, the emotion you capture is top notch. However, much like the band, they seem boring and bland. And as for venues, they dont come much ****tier then the ones i shoot at, The Stone Pony (where those WAF shots are from) is decent, and Starland Ballroom is great, but outside of that, i run around Hamilton St. and the like, and they suck.

And if those bands are paying a millon dollars for LED lights, they dont care much about their music, or they woulda spent that money on recording, instruments, better CD and poster and merch art, etc. it seems like a band who cares too much about their image. The guys i shoot are mostly kids, some are in their twenty's like What About Frank?, and they play from the heart, from the soul, with no super fancy lighting.

If your shooting at a casino, im sure the lighting isnt that bad, like i said, come to one of my venues and see what its like. i shot a show once with NO LIGHTING, it was indoors, but during the day, so they didnt put the lights on. and yet, i got this first one: Ashes Are Nutritious @ Hamilton St. NJ, uh, probably 1/6 sec with pop up flash. The second shot is What About Frank? @ the Stone Pony, NJ, 1/10 sec maybe, pop up flash

So you see, im not banking on the motion and blur, im using it to enhance the photo and really produce some intensity.

[DwightMcCann]

So, Garg, without using "shutter drag" my images have no soul, but that's OK because the people I shoot are boring? I have the sinking feeling that the real problem is that I am just not in touch with reality (as defined by what the majority of people believe) and that the mass of folks who think B.B. King and James Brown and Al Green, etc., etc. define soul are just being silly. :( Aha, I know ... my problem is that I am old! I can live with that. :rolleyes: I just wish you had an opinion about this Concert Photography thing. :lol:

[Greg P.]

hahaha, no, i have great apprecation for those that you mentioned, theyre the pioneers of soul, musically speaking, and its not because youre old, well you know what, maybe it is, i suppose the clients i work with, who are right around my age, are looking for something else, so thats why ive mastered it at least, i try to make the "effect" i use not dominate and overtake the photo, but just add to it.

[narlus]

greg p, i personally think you've done a very good job of balancing the trails w/ preserving the spirit of the image. if i had to choose one of my favorite live performance photographers, Charles Peterson (http://www.charlespeterson.net/touchme1.html) would be certainly near the top of the heap.

i know i've got a ton to learn; i just got a SLR a few months ago and have only shot 3-4 gigs...but i learn stuff all the time, and this forum is really great in that aspect; i've gotten way more info from here than, say, dpreview or FM.

[Greg P.]

are you shooting film? cuz if you are, i hope you have a fat wallet. after 3-4 gigs, you should have a slight feel for it, but it takes some real time. i mean, ive been at for only 9 months, and on the grand scale of things, i still suck something fierce. On a local level tho, in and around jersey, i feel im one of the best out there. I take a lot of time and put in alot of effort into my photos, yet I have so much fun when im shooting a show, if its a good band, and thats all i shoot now are bands that i enjoy seeing and listening to.

My best advice: Shoot the ok whatever bands till youre good, then shoot the bands you like, and just always always keep progressing, and never settle.

[Steve Parr]

I checked out Dwights website, and although the photos are exposed great and the colors and great and the emotion and movement is great, its just lacking the kind of intensity that i try to put into my work, maybe i dont, but thats what i go for.

The intensity isn't coming from you, though. All you're doing is capturing it.

Sure, a lot of bands want pictures that use shutter-drag. My experience is that a lot more of them don't...

Steve

[narlus]

are you shooting film? cuz if you are, i hope you have a fat wallet.

no, i should have qualified that by (D)SLR; all the other cameras i've ever used were point and shoot, really.

plus, my wallet's already cleaned out from buying a couple of lenses. :(

[Greg P.]

No i feel that as a photog. you should ADD to the intensity, i mean, ive shot some bands that suck, but i make it look like itd be cool to go see them lol. The great thing is, when you add intesity to a GOOD band that already has it, you get some sick stuff.

[Steve Parr]

And if those bands are paying a millon dollars for LED lights, they dont care much about their music, or they woulda spent that money on recording, instruments, better CD and poster and merch art, etc. it seems like a band who cares too much about their image.

Two words: Pink Floyd.

The fact that a band spends a million dollars on a single lighting effect doesn't suggest that they don't care about their music. More accurately, it suggests that they've been doing it long enough to have a million dollars to spend on a lighting effect. Most bands I know don't stay around long enough to earn that kind of money unless they love what they're doing.

Okay, at the risk of setting off a firestorm, I'll say it: I think shutter-drag is probably the single most overused technique in concert photography.

Discuss...

Steve

[Steve Parr]

No i feel that as a photog. you should ADD to the intensity, i mean, ive shot some bands that suck, but i make it look like itd be cool to go see them lol. The great thing is, when you add intesity to a GOOD band that already has it, you get some sick stuff.

I believe exactly the opposite.

My job is to capture what the audience sees. Nothing more, nothing less...

Steve

[narlus]

hey, that's what makes photography an art form; freedom of expression. just as there were realist and impressionist painters, i can't see why the same can't be said for photographers.

[Greg P.]

Couldnt have said it better myself, narlus.

[DwightMcCann]

hahaha, no, i have great apprecation for those that you mentioned, theyre the pioneers of soul, musically speaking, and its not because youre old, well you know what, maybe it is, i suppose the clients i work with, who are right around my age, are looking for something else, so thats why ive mastered it at least, i try to make the "effect" i use not dominate and overtake the photo, but just add to it.
Let's see, I am 60. How old are you? I expect late teens or early 20's (I expect you will be reluctant to answer.) Have you ever heard that young people think they know it all and their parents don't know anything and are amazed as they get older at how much their parents did know after all? There is a reason for that.

As for your "art" ... if you have to tell us how good it is and why what you do is superior than it is certainly not the "art" talking. And even if your "effects" don't dominate the images (which I think they do) they certainly don't reflect the artists' performance for the very reason that you "make the 'effect'", not them. It is your interpretation.

I am curious as to how you justify your assertion that your photos have more intensity or are better art. Have you sold a lot of work? Is a lot of your work on Websites and in CDs of known bands? What gauge, other than your opinion of your own work, demonstrates how good it is? For that matter, what in general makes some art better than other art?

[Greg P.]

My guage is the feedback i get not only from the clients but from other artists in the area.

Secondly, im not recluctant to tell you im 19 yrs old, and i think my parents know a great deal more about everything than i do, even tho im 19, i realize im still pretty much a kid.

I never said my art was superior to anyone elses, either.

And thats another thing. at this point, i dont wanna publish my work on a grand scale, im content with my website. I plan on developing my work a whole lot more before i try to make any moves.

[DwightMcCann]

hey, that's what makes photography an art form; freedom of expression. just as there were realist and impressionist painters, i can't see why the same can't be said for photographers.
Narlus, I think you are correct to a very large extent. I think it was Greg's assertion that there is something lacking in my images rather than they were just a different style that I find objectionable. He finally has said that he is creating art rather than reflecting the performance of the bands which sets him apart from me and my good friend (and another old guy) Steve Parr. Both of us sell our work regularly. It may also answer his question about why Steve and I can sell our work to the bands while he has difficulty ... we shoot the bands to reflect their creativity rather than our own. I don't have any problem with that. I just don't want to be told that my art is inferior when the only gauge for the judgment is Greg's personal opinion of his own work. :rolleyes:

[Greg P.]

Its 2 things. the bands i shoot, i dont charge em for live photos A becuase they dont need em that bad, and 2 becuase ill charge them for press photos and design work. The second thing is im not tryin to sell my work yet.

[Steve Parr]

He finally has said that he is creating art rather than reflecting the performance of the bands which sets him apart from me and my good friend (and another old guy) Steve Parr. Both of us sell our work regularly. It may also answer his question about why Steve and I can sell our work to the bands while he has difficulty...

Hold on a second, Methuseluh: "another old guy"??

:lol:

[DwightMcCann]

I never said my art was superior to anyone elses, either.
I think you are not paying close attention to what you are writing, Greg. As one example you said my images were lacking "intensity". You have said several other less than complementary things about my work including that they lack "soul."

Anyway, after all these chest butting discussions I think we have a good sense of where we are in our photography endeavors. At least I think I know where you are coming from and what your issues are. Given your situation I think you are doing a great job. Not meaning in any way to put you down, you are not the first young man to come bounding in here and proclaiming "shutter drag" to be superior to technically excellent images (notice I am not making any value judgments). We have had these same discussions a number of times in the past year. You have differentiated yourself, however, in your style of making negative judgments about someone else's body of work (even if you don't think saying that "lacking intensity" is a negative judgment.)

When more mature shooters arrive at POTN they tend to ask and answer questions rather than make pronouncements and value judgments because their experience has taught them that others may have knowledge or opinions that are different but valid and that they may have something to learn. They may say, "I do this shutter drag technique as a way to create art, what do you think of it?" They may (and have) say, "The bands all say they like my images a lot but I haven't been able to sell any to them ... what's up with that?" Or maybe, "I really, really like my own work and just don't understand why everyone else doesn't think it is the best. Any thoughts?" This style just doesn't work for most under-30's because they come from an age culture that is more confrontational and opinionated and which may even punish those who appear unsure of themselves or open to different life perspectives than their own.

One of my more "famous" statements in this forum is, "When you can shoot technically excellent images on demand then I will believe that your shutter drag images are taken out of choice rather than lack of ability to do anything else." I said this long, long before you even heard of POTN I'm sure, so it isn't aimed at you ... but it is an interesting thought, eh? ;)

[Steve Parr]

The second thing is im not tryin to sell my work yet.

You present a cogent enough position as to why you shoot as you do.

I would make a recommendation, if I may: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. When you do decide to sell your work, your potential client base will be much larger if you have different styles to show them. Certainly go with what you're doing, but also be aware that you'll need those "boring" shots to attract clients, as well.

The first thing I learned about the business end of this is that what I see as my "artistic expression" doesn't mean a damn thing to someone who's going to pay me to shoot their band. If they want shutter drag, they get it. If they don't, they'll get "boring".

"Boring" has been payin' off pretty well, so far...

[DwightMcCann]

Hold on a second, Methuseluh: "another old guy"??

:lol:

Are you over 30? :lol:

[Steve Parr]

Are you over 30? :lol:

Ummm...

Yeah...

[Greg P.]

to address all points:

In terms of variation, i shoot anything and everything, in BW, color, and everything in between.

I do ask questions, i try to answer some to the best of my ability, and im not here to put anyones work down; however, i will present my opinions, sometims in a crude or frank manner, but hey, thats me.

Also, you have to understand my approach to band photography: i go to a show to shoot bands id normally listen to anyway, so im rockin out and dancin and basically tearing it up, all the while snapping away. My "shutter drag" technique isnt a technique at all, the big secret is: slow sync, shooting with a flash at 1/10 sec or slower. The bands do the rest. I just enhance their already intense movements. i know the bands i shoot love my work, and i can tell just by looking at the work of some of their former photographers that i absolutely destroy them.

It is my opinion that some of your photos lack intensity or seem bland, but photographically, they are very very good, good exposure, color, etc.

[DwightMcCann]

Ummm...

Yeah...

Sig ergo blatum! [Actually, I don't know any Latin and this is totally made up, but it sounded good so I thought it was art!" :lol: ]

[Greg P.]

Sig ergo blatum! [Actually, I don't know any Latin and this is totally made up, but it sounded good so I thought it was art!" :lol: ]

i believe it means something to the effect of "dont trust anyone over 30"
;)

[DwightMcCann]

It is my opinion that some of your photos lack intensity or seem bland, but photographically, they are very very good, good exposure, color, etc.

I understand that. So, when I say, "Shutter drag and all those swirling lines and use of flash greatly degrade the quality of your images and do not reflect the performance of the band" you will understand that it is my opinion. As for being "bland", I think that is more a reflection on the age of the target subjects than a limitation on my photography ... almost all these people are OLD ... you know, older than your parents! Some are as old as my parents and I could be your Granddad!!! ;) If fact, you'd have to use a ten second exposure time to get the "shutter drag" technique to work for some of these guys because they move so slowly!:lol:

[Greg P.]

hey, Bob Dylan is old, and in my opinion, theres no one whos more photogenic than Dylan.

And i dont mind you raggin on my style, it is your opinion, and like narlus said, theres different styles out there, and thats what makes art art.

I understand why you think so little of the youth of today, especially in our regard to our elders, all in all, were a pretty stupid bunch, but theres some among us with out heads above water. If you knew me, i bet we'd have more in common than you think.

[DwightMcCann]

i believe it means something to the effect of "dont trust anyone over 30"
;)

Thank you ... I am sure that is a literal translation! :lol: I am certainly lingually deficient/challenged!:(

[DwightMcCann]

hey, Bob Dylan is old, and in my opinion, theres no one whos more photogenic than Dylan. I take exception to that! Have you looked at my avatar? I am orders of magnitude more photogenic than Dylan.

And i dont mind you raggin on my style, it is your opinion, and like narlus said, theres different styles out there, and thats what makes art art. Well, I was really trying to suggest that it is the manner in which you express your opinion that is at issue ... but it takes a long time to develop real style.

I understand why you think so little of the youth of today, especially in our regard to our elders, all in all, were a pretty stupid bunch, but theres some among us with out heads above water.
Hehehe, now that is funny! Whatever did I say to make you think I think so little of youth today? :rolleyes: I think the world of youth today! Do you think it is a put down to suggest that young people today are similar to young people of my day? Do you think it is a put down to say that young people generally have a similar style (Like not using proper punctuation and grammer? Or wearing their pants around their knees and their baseball caps backwards?) Do you think it is a put down to find value in experience? I think perhaps you are a bit sensitive on this issue.

I work at the University of California. There are 20,000 of the brightest kids in America on my campus. Are they doofus? Oh, yes! Are they short sighted and self centered? Oh, yes! Are they almost totally controlled by peer pressure? Absolutely ... they won't wear helmets while bicycling because it is not cool and we have about ten accidents a day with one or two severe injuries a week including head injuries because of it! Do they think they know so much more than the adults? Absolutely! Will they be the leaders of tomorrow? Absolutely! Will they become warm, wonderful, caring, loving human beings and parents and wise guardians of our future. Oh, yes! But it takes time, living, experience, successes and losses to develop a strong and sensitive person ... you don't just pop out of the can and know much about life. Say, did you notice I have a four year old daughter?

http://www.palsgaard-mccann.net/FamilyPictures/Anna/Anna05012006/AnnaFourYears/Anna5843-200.JPG

[Steve Parr]

ISay, did you notice I have a four year old daughter?








Who, thank God, looks like her mother...
:lol:

[DwightMcCann]

Who, thank God, looks like her mother...
:lol:
You're just jealous! :p

This is my wife on the beach in Cozumel, Mexico:
http://www.palsgaard-mccann.net/FamilyPictures/CozumelVacation/Presidente/Marna02.jpg

[Steve Parr]

You're just jealous! :p

This is my wife on the beach in Cozumel, Mexico:
http://www.palsgaard-mccann.net/FamilyPictures/CozumelVacation/Presidente/Marna02.jpg

Well, then I can only offer you a single word of advice, and I know this as the father of a daughter:

BUCKSHOT

[DwightMcCann]

Well, then I can only offer you a single word of advice, and I know this as the father of a daughter:

BUCKSHOT

I am going to let her 21 year old brother chaperone, which should be just as good! :rolleyes:

[earplugsrequired]

My experience is that the ones who are boring are every bit as willing to pay as those who rock. If I'm shooting a band, there's a good chance I'm not shooting them because I like the music...

If I'm shooting a band, there's a good chance I'm not shooting something I don't like! I'm total opposite of you Steve! I have a group of us that shoot bands so we pick and choose who we cover and we cover what we like/love. I got into this because of a love of music, not because I wanted another job. When it starts acting like a job, I'm done. There are some nights I'm out covering a band that I'm not really into their music but usually those are the smaller bands on their way up that a publicist has asked me to cover.

[narlus]

If I'm shooting a band, there's a good chance I'm not shooting something I don't like! I'm total opposite of you Steve! I have a group of us that shoot bands so we pick and choose who we cover and we cover what we like/love. I got into this because of a love of music, not because I wanted another job. When it starts acting like a job, I'm done. There are some nights I'm out covering a band that I'm not really into their music but usually those are the smaller bands on their way up that a publicist has asked me to cover.

^^^

what he said.

i'm a music fan first, a photographer a distant second. i definitely dig taking shots and capturing the moment, but i've been seeing bands and buying music for a long time now (just turned 40), and i'm typically one of the older people in the audience.

enough typing, i wanna take some shots! i will be lugging my gear to two shows this weekend, so hopefully i will get some decent results.

[earplugsrequired]

hahaha, no, i have great apprecation for those that you mentioned, theyre the pioneers of soul, musically speaking, and its not because youre old, well you know what, maybe it is, i suppose the clients i work with, who are right around my age, are looking for something else, so thats why ive mastered it at least, i try to make the "effect" i use not dominate and overtake the photo, but just add to it.

I really didn't want to get into this conversation. Greg - I shoot a lot of the same type venues and bigger venues as well. I have been in barricades, on side of the stage and pretty close to on the stage (got warned not to step on a certain button or I would cut off the bass!). There is art here but to me art isn't just holding up the camera without looking and shooting. There is art in composition, in holding out for that moment that the band member jumps and you get him in mid air, art in getting that knowing look from one band member to the other band member, art in knowing certain things happen at certain moments in songs (that definitely comes from knowing an artist). I love to move around and get better angles and seriously I could never use a tripod or monopod where I shoot. Club security would laugh at me and throw me out of the barricade faster than they wanted to when I had a little bit too much to drink.

In this forum we have all types of people that are shooting concerts. We have those that are in the crowd and taking their chances being jostled around and hoping cameras are allowed at the venue. We have those that have band permission and have pretty much free rein, and we have those that have venue access. We all have input and things that each other could learn from. I would love to try that shutter drag and thinking to do that at a show coming up of a very active band that I know - dope. They let me do whatever so flash won't be an issue! So if any of you that do shutter drag want to coach me, send me a message!

[earplugsrequired]

^^^

what he said.

i'm a music fan first, a photographer a distant second. i definitely dig taking shots and capturing the moment, but i've been seeing bands and buying music for a long time now (just turned 40), and i'm typically one of the older people in the audience.

enough typing, i wanna take some shots! i will be lugging my gear to two shows this weekend, so hopefully i will get some decent results.


I'm a she! Sorry, couldn't resist that! Hmmm, I'm equal. I love music, I love photography. If I'm at a show that I'm not shooting, I'm always looking at it as if I was shooting. Before I shot bands, I shot soccer on the National level. Thank goodness for stadium lights!

I'm editing my stuff from my night of red lights and rough crowd. Have show on Sunday with 30 Seconds to Mars!

[Brad_T]

As far as these type of photos go, I think you have done really well. Everyone starts somewhere when building up their repotoirs of what sort of photos they can take, and what they start with usually depends strongly on what the bands they are shooting are after. Many bands starting out are probably used to photos shot on a point and shoot with flash, totally washed out and probably pretty ordinary colours and blur. It is easy to see how these photos would be a big step up from those, however abstract some might see them. As you shoot more and more I am guessing you will add other techniques to your repoitour.

Anyway thanks for sharing and hope to see more of your stuff soon!

As an aside - at a concert I shot recently I noticed a guy shooting near the front of stage, dslr with a pop up flash just leaning over the stage arm outstretched and poking his camera anywhere and everywhere without looking, flashing away. Regardless of how the photos turn out, as someone who performs aswell (played over 30 gigs this year already) that just seemed to me as fricken annoying.

[Greg P.]

haha thats me, but ive asked the bands i shoot if it bothers them, and they tell me they dont even notice, as long as i understamd that if i get hit, its on me, and im cool with that.

[Steve Parr]

If I'm shooting a band, there's a good chance I'm not shooting something I don't like! I'm total opposite of you Steve! I have a group of us that shoot bands so we pick and choose who we cover and we cover what we like/love. I got into this because of a love of music, not because I wanted another job. When it starts acting like a job, I'm done. There are some nights I'm out covering a band that I'm not really into their music but usually those are the smaller bands on their way up that a publicist has asked me to cover.

You misunderstood my point. The reason I'm shooting them is because they're paying me. Aside from my two "guines pig" bands, if a band isn't paying me, I'm probably not shooting them. If I like the music and they're not paying me, I'll leave the camera home.

I can dress up my neighbor's kids and make them look like an intense rock band; no big feat there. At the end of the day, it's a picture without sound.

The fact of the matter is that I like most music, but I'm also beyond the point of shooting bands if they haven't hired me...

[Brad_T]

haha thats me, but ive asked the bands i shoot if it bothers them, and they tell me they dont even notice, as long as i understamd that if i get hit, its on me, and im cool with that.

Haha well I'm glad you ok it with the band first. I think I'd be a little offput if someone started doing it to me, but then I play blues/roots music sitting down with a stomp box so I guess it would be a little bit more in my face!

[jfrancho]

Ok. I'm an "in-betweener" meaning I'm old enough to know better, but young enough to get away with it. I don't know why I just said that. Old guys: stop beating up the kids over things that may seem "been there, done that" to you. Young guys: please chill with the "I'm the next Charles Peterson and I'm so great" routine. And Dwight, I love ya', but if I have to hear about some million dollar umpteen-bajillowatt unobtanium filament light system, I'm gonna stick a fork in my eye. Seriously, where is the gentle, positive reinforcement I recieved 18 months ago? This category was created and now it's become some militant, working photographers, sharp image only kind of place. What gives? I haven't seen a slow synch flash shot quite as exquisite as Greg P.'s second shot here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1498825&postcount=31) in a long while. He doesn't need to be hired or paid to validate his photography. If he's truly interested in becoming more marketable once he runs out of "soft" customers, perhaps he'll seek your advice, if you haven't alienated him, and he isn't overcome by his pride. Let's not forget about queenbee here - it's her thread after all that somehow spawned this great debate with an innocent tripod comment. Nice job on your freshmen effort queenbee. I didn't catch whether you shot raw format or in jpeg, but you may be able to reduce just enough color cast to improve the martian skin without killing the mood with calibration sliders in ACR. You'll have to let us know more about your workflow.

[Steve Parr]

Ok. I'm an "in-betweener" meaning I'm old enough to know better, but young enough to get away with it. I don't know why I just said that. Old guys: stop beating up the kids over things that may seem "been there, done that" to you. Young guys: please chill with the "I'm the next Charles Peterson and I'm so great" routine. And Dwight, I love ya', but if I have to hear about some million dollar umpteen-bajillowatt unobtanium filament light system, I'm gonna stick a fork in my eye. Seriously, where is the gentle, positive reinforcement I recieved 18 months ago? This category was created and now it's become some militant, working photographers, sharp image only kind of place. What gives? I haven't seen a slow synch flash shot quite as exquisite as Greg P.'s second shot here (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1498825&postcount=31) in a long while. He doesn't need to be hired or paid to validate his photography. If he's truly interested in becoming more marketable once he runs out of "soft" customers, perhaps he'll seek your advice, if you haven't alienated him, and he isn't overcome by his pride. Let's not forget about queenbee here - it's her thread after all that somehow spawned this great debate with an innocent tripod comment. Nice job on your freshmen effort queenbee. I didn't catch whether you shot raw format or in jpeg, but you may be able to reduce just enough color cast to improve the martian skin without killing the mood with calibration sliders in ACR. You'll have to let us know more about your workflow.

Hey!

What's with all the "common sense" crap?

We'll have none of that here...

:lol:

[jfrancho]

The fork in my eye made me a little short-sighted.

[queenbee288]

jfranco.. I did shoot raw...they were a lot greener and a lot redder before I made adjustments. Do you think I need to reduce the color even more?

[DwightMcCann]

JF, I'm in a bad mood ... pulled my back out two weeks ago and have been in constant discomfort since although getting better, albeit slowly. :( But please note that you didn't diss my work. You weren't confrontational and agrumentative. You didn't brag with little to back it up. In short, you didn't have the teeny-bopper mentality.

And besides, I'm generally the only guy here who consistently stands on the side of technical excellence as an essential ingredient ... show me you CAN do clear, crisp, well exposed images and then I'll believe that you do that "shutter drag artistry" because you really believe it is superior. But if you can't then perhaps it is because you don't have the skill set to do anything else.

As for the "perfect lighting storm" mentions, well, you'll just have to fork them eyeballs. :p

[DwightMcCann]

Queen, I think you are between a rock and a hard place when the stage lights from two different directions are from significantly different parts of the spectrum such as red and green. I can only suggest that you try to get the best color (skin tones) on the most important part of the most important faces and let other areas fall where they may, within reason.

[queenbee288]

Thanks Dwight. I really appreciate everyone's comments, feedback and suggestions.