need advice on the situation

[furball]

Hi,

I am new here, was researching info related photography law and found this forum.

I hope that anyone out there has experience or information can give me some advice or suggestion on how to handle this situation:

Background info:
From a pet forum (I am a memeber of that forum because I own that type of pet) I found that there was a pet show. So I went to the show out of my own interest for the subject. The show was held at a building where anyone can go in and see the show w/ entrance fee. I like taking pictures so I had my camera w/ me. I asked the lady who handles the entrance fee on whether or not I am allowed to take photo w/ flash in the show. She said yes. So I snapped away and took a lot of pictures of the pets at the show out of excitment.

After the show, there were people (the pet owners) from the forum asking me to show them the pictures. So I thought it would be okay to share my experience at the show so I put up the pictures (smaller size w/ copyright on it) that I took on my website which contained the pets from the show. I got friendly encouragement sayind they were nice pics and thanked me for sharing. Some owners of those pets (that were shown in the pictures) asked if they can get a copy full resolution copy. I told them that if they are willing to give me $1 per image that they want, I can crop, touch up, fix the image and burn them into a CD and send to them (they pay for the shipping). From my point of view, a buck (way under marketing price) per image is really just to cover the service and time that I spend on the photo. For those that were interested, I only agreed to send them the pictures containing their own pets.

There was a lady (lady-a) who complained and threanted me w/ legal action for posting her pets' picture online w/o her permission and that I shouldn't even think about copy-righting my photos. So immediately I took the site down to avoid the trouble or debate.

Then there was another pet owner (lady-b) who wanted pictures of her pets and also couple other pictures of other pets that she has bought from the other owners at the show. Turned out one of those "owners" was lady-a.

I told lady-b that I can only send her (w/ service fee $1 per image) the ones that contained her pets. As for the image that contained the pet who's prior owner was lady-a, I can't send to her b/c I don't have the permission from lady-a.

Then this lady-b contacted lady-a herself to ask for permission for getting a copy of the print that contains lady-a's pet. Of course this lady-a was giving her the speech of "I have no right to charge for my image" and said that "I should only GIVE the image to her" (I think she implied GIVE=FREE).

At this point, I feel really bad because I posted the pictures only for sharing my experience at the show. I only asking for $1 per image+shipping if the owner of the pets want a copy of the images of their own pets. So my questions are:

1) What's consister as commercial use of an image? I read that if a person take a picture of another person, then sell the image for let's say to advertistment, then it's commercial use of the image, is this true? If I am only printing it for the pet owners who are interested in their own pets, is this consister commercial use?

2) If what I am charging for is the service that I am providing them, is this legal?

3) Would it be okay if I go through w/ the transaction for lady-b who wanted to buy the images and only provide her pictures of her own pets, excluding the pets that are from lady-a even though at this point, lady-b is already the owner of the pet in picture? Or should I avoid the trouble all together and told the lady-b that sorry, no can do, I don't want to get into trouble w/ lady-a?

4) Lady-b is now the owner of the pet who' picture is in question, does she has the right to give me permission to print or the right still belongs to lady-a because at the moment when the picture was taken, lady-a was still the owner?

5) If lady-b is willing to pay me for the service to provide her w/ the print, does that imply that she gives me permission to release (to her only) the photo that contains her pets?

6) I read that if I treat my photo as a piece of art, I can put a price on it w/o requesting model release, is that true? But what exactly is the definition between a photo and a piece of art?

7) Is that pet show location consistered as public place if it's open to public w/ entrace fee? If the lady at the entrace gave me permission to use flash, does that imply photography is allowed at the show?

I mean I know I can just "give" the pictures to the pet owners and it would have saved me all the headache. Because I didn't obtain official release form from the pet owners (I wasn't planning on selling the pics to begin w/ before someone wants a copy of their own pets...) and I took the pictures for my personal enjoyment for photography (Although I thought my service charge was not outragous)

I really would like to find out what is right/wrong w/ the situation so that I learn what to do/not to do in the future.

If anyone has any suggestion or advice or knowledge of how to handle these situations, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
-fb :cry:

[spierenburg]

I'm in the UK so not sure about the law in the US, but this might be of help,

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

However, it does state at the end, in some cases legal advice may be required.

Rob

[PIXI_666]

Some people make things really difficult don't they? I am sooo open minded that if you came and took photo's of my pet prancing around in an arena and then posted them on the web, i'd go and have a peek and go "Ahh very nice" end of story!!!

Some people just want to cause trouble and EVEN THOUGH it was the wrong thing to do on your behalf, for crikeys sakes...what is the world coming too? UGH!

I can't help you, i can just sit here and tell you that i disagree with lady a's POV and it's just silly to kick up a stink over something so small.

Adelle

[PhotosGuy]

Some people just want to cause trouble... Yeah!
Personally, I'd...

... think about the fact that you aren't using the pics in advertizing. You're selling owners pics of their own pets.

...tell (lady-a) who complained and threanted me to sue me, & I'd never sell her a pic which she might want to threaten to use as evidence. Remember, anyone can sue you for anything. Doesn't mean that that person is right or could win anything in the process. And in civil court, she'd probably have to hire a lawyer who won't come cheap. Do you really think she would?

... sell lady-b pics of her pet for at least $5 each a 4X6" print & include shipping.

... use a password protected gallery in the future.

Is that pet show location consistered as public place if it's open to public w/ entrace fee? If the lady at the entrace gave me permission to use flash, does that imply photography is allowed at the show? Does it say anything on the back of the ticket? I would think that she's a "representative of the show" & go with what she said. So I'd consisder it as public place until a higher placed rep of the show informed me otherwise.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Take pics. Have fun. Ignore the Cowbirds! ;)

[JCR]

Legal advice can't help you
my own actions would be to tell them all to go whistle, no one gets any pics for money or otherwise. If they have a problem with this... tuff.

Either that or go photograph a horse's ar*e and offer to the moody mare as a portrait for free.

[saravrose]

agree with the above... personally I think the problem may have started when you only charged a dollar.. Now, hear me out. If you were to come at it with a different attitude. these are images I captured through my effort, and time at a public venue.. and guess what? some of them may have value for you would have given folks the impression that even if your not a pro the work you do is worthy of being paid for then they may have approached you differently. But, rather you came at as.. We all own dogs, were all buddies (i'm not familiar with forums but on here I have several folks I consider buddies).. I took a picture of your dog just for fun because I could.. here it is, you can look at it but if you want it I want money. if you invest yourself in time, gear and really learning your craft and offer up things for free.. (and a dollar an image is free.) It doesn't cover what you have put into it, not even close. At this point I can't really tell you what the right thing to do is. You can't go back and offer up the prints at a more reasonable (for you) price, and you can't really make the woman happy.. the only options available to you is to

A. stick to your guns, sell the photos for the amount of money you stipulated. Tell lady B that she can have the images of the animal that belonged to her at the time of the shoot, best to make a mistake on the side of caution.. but, you can offer to do another 'shoot' for her at another dog show or if she wants portraits of her pets taken (at a discount)

B. Try to maintain good will and peace cave, give the women there pictures, make up some bogus apology and next time, leave you camera at home or ask them in advance if they would like you to take pictures of there dogs (for pay).. Ofcourse if you give them there prints for free this time it's going to be a LOT harder to get anything out of the next shoot, or the next or the next...

but, regardless it sounds like a bunch of uptight cheap people if somebody offered me a dollar a print from something like this.. i'd buy fifty, and giggle my butt off just because it was soo cheap...
Okay, that was a rant. sorry, but I do think i'm atleast partly right...

sari

[Tee Why]

I'm assuming you are in USA, if so I believe the law is in your favor.
In any public place you can photograph anyone you want and do what ever you want with your image, even sell them if it is considered art. You need a model release if you intend it for commercial use, such as using the dog/person to sell products such as a car/dog food, etc. Now if you took pictures of them where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, such as closed off areas/backstage, restrooms, changing rooms, that would be illegal.
Here are some legal links
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf#search='photographer's%2 0rights'

[mbze430]

Best in these situation is not to give out any pictures. Since you didn't have any given conscent to use these commercially (once you charge or put a price tag on your pictures it is consider commercial).

This is what I do. If you see a subject that is of value, and wishes to take pictures of it. Get conscent. give a business card to the subject or the owner. Work out the details before doing anything with the shot(s).

Since I own a Mk2, if the owner or subject is going to give you verbal conscent immediately, I use the recording function and attach it to the images.

Everyone is gonna sue you. Its just good practice to have proof to back up your own case.

[Photodawg1]

Yeah...events especially pet/horse ones are tricky. I contacted the president of a Virginia AKC in the winter for an upcoming show. At first, she stiffly said it would be fine to take shots, but that I would not be allowed to solicit sales. I was in NO WAY allowed to shoot the "winner" shots, as their "official" photog had exclusive priviledges...She said I wasn't even allowed to stand behind him and try to take a shot of the winners. Apparently a similar situation like yours happened at a previous show and one of the owners got pissy....yadayada. After talking with her about 15 minutes she started telling me where I would find the best photo ops and even shifting her position on ways to give owners access to my shots if they were good. I find its ALWAYS good to get acquainted with president or person in charge and clarify with them what is acceptable. Much easier to do in advance...and if you can get it in writing the better. Don't let this one instance bum you out.

[furball]

Thank you everyone for your suggestion/opinion on how to handle the situation.

I guess the positive side of the situation is that I am learning a lot about the rights of photographer through the research. Although... I am having hard time finding the black and white definition for what's consider as public area, what's consider as commercial use in the sense of law, etc. A lot of gray area and some are really up to the interpretation of whoever is seeing the situation...

I am glad to have stumble unpon this forum so I get to meet (in writing) you guys who are also interested in photography!