Which Canon dSLR..rebelXT, 20d, 30d [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

bladepurveyor

10th of May 2006 (Wed), 21:04

Hello all...I am new to the canon digital forums...I am a intermediate photographer...I am looking to take studio type photos of Custom Knives..using a photobox, lights and tripod and camera..I need your help..I can easily afford the rebelXT...but the 20d and 30d is not out of the question..but it would be a little harder coming up with the money but not out of the question...then to figure out which lense...should I go with the kit lense? 18-55, or go with a normal lense..? Macro? I have read that you should buy your last camera first..spend the money on the camera you think you might grow into....:rolleyes: I don't know enough about the differences in the camera models...I don't understand what most of the specs mean......90% of my photos will be taken indoors in the photobox..10% of the time I might use the camera for family photos and some outdoor shots.....what should I do? HELP

TheSteveMadden

10th of May 2006 (Wed), 21:18

Welcome to POTN.

For static studio product shots, the Rebel XT will be more then enough camera. If it were me, I'd take the money I saved and spend it on lenses, lighting and a good tripod (which I did :) ).

The major problems I have with the XT which are driving my desire for the 30D are AF accuracy and speed, AF point layout not condusive to rule of thirds, and the relative difficulty of changing exposure settings. These are all frustrating when trying to photograph children and sports. My static shots, OTOH, are tack sharp and consistent as I can use a lower ISO and stop down or take several shots to pick the best focus.

As you get more professional and branch out into other forms of photography, you can always upgrade and keep the XT as a capable and necessary backup body.

Good luck.

denMAR

10th of May 2006 (Wed), 23:58

I'd say the same thing. Get the XT and spend your extra cash on a lens.

AFcrosshair-1

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 00:11

well... id have to agree with both of them cause i did have the rebel xt ONCE... b4 i upgraded to the 30D which i thankfully an luckilly did thanks to a REALLY great friend of mine.. but yeah getting the xt is good an having the extra cash to get the nice lenses would be on your agenda...

Tut

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 00:29

I'm not too sure what you are planning to do with the knife photos, so if you're making professional brochures or such, what I am about to say may not apply. My wife and I have an antique shop and I use my 30D to take pictures of antique furniture and glassware. I have made up photo albums (4x6) of items we have in inventory and also keep a copy of the pictures on a computer at our store for our customers to view (and zoom in up to 100% crops for detail reviews, ie scrutiny). I take all of my pictures handheld with available light (indoors - flourescent or incadescent) and I'm able to get extremely sharp and color accurate (with custom white balance) images that I feel confident showing my customers. Just some more information to help make your decision even more difficult.

Kennymc

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 01:50

If thats all you want it for the 350D will serve all your needs and more but I would go for a quality prime 35 or 50 for top notch images...

bladepurveyor

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 09:35

Thanks Guys! Here is an example of the type of photographs I want to take..I used my old Hp photosmart camera to take this its 3.3 megapixels ..I used microsoft digital image to correct and manipulate the photo...
What lense or lenses should I get for this type of photography?

red hot sheep

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 10:39

Any macro lens will be more than enough. Very sharp and allow you to take pictures up to 1:1 size (ie fill the sensor with an object the size of the sensor). This is probably closer than you need for knives, but its nice to have the extra ability.

As dedicated macro lenses are primes, they all have excellent image quality. Examples are the Canon 60mm E-FS (for 350d, 20d, 30d only), canon 100mm, sigma 50mm, sigma 105mm, sigma 150mm, tamron 90mm. All good!

delhi

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 11:29

why buy a new camera? Your HP seem to handle it quite well. :)

Lightstream

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 11:40

I use my EF-S 60mm f/2.8 macro for product shots. Canon 350D or 20D - doesn't make a difference, I find both to be equally capable cameras when taking pictures on my workbench. The 60 macro will allow you to do closeup shots and highlight extremely fine details of your craft. I have the 50mm f/1.8 lens and the 60 macro completely blows it away. (it had better, it costs at least 5X more! :D )

Get proper lighting, perhaps a couple of 430EX flashes, ST-E2 wireless transmitter to control both flashes. Get a light tent, position the two flashes to fire through the sides of the light tent. Mount the ST-E2 on top of the camera, it will send the signal to the flashes to fire.

The 60 macro is a tremendously sharp lens, more than sharp enough for almost any imaginable purpose and often, too sharp especially for portraits where it brings out every little speck and flaw ;)

I use both the 350D and 20D interchangeably, and I don't notice a difference in quality. As far as I can see, both cameras are capable of delivering exceptionally good images. I find that proper lighting makes a big difference, too.

exile

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 12:05

why buy a new camera? Your HP seem to handle it quite well. :)

That's what I thought when I saw the photo of the knife. The other thing I thought of was wootz - is that knife really made of wootz?

prime80

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 13:23

If you can afford the 20D/30D and still get a nice lens, I'd go with whichever you can afford. If getting one of them is going to cause you to get a cheaper lens, get the XT and a nicer lens.

bladepurveyor

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 15:45

First thanks for the compliments on my photo :D you guys really made my day ;-) ..the reason I want to get a better camera is to produce larger photo's...and have a better depth of field (Preview)...it took quite alot of shots to get this photo...I know I could do a better job with a dslr..but I did'nt know which type of lense to go with...can I ask why will the canon 60mm macro lense only fits on the 350xt and 20d or 30d and the others lenses mentioned will work on all others? it's this type of infomation I have no clue about..I truly appreciate any and all help you all have given me...:D

Oh yeah..this is a damascus blade knife..it's not wootz but similar...

Double Negative

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 16:09

Yep, go for the Rebel and a nice lens. The EF-S 60mm f/2.8 lens would be a good one for your work. A tripod and proper lighting will complete the setup.

The lenses have different mounts. EF-S is only available on the bodies you mentioned. The regular EF mount will work on ANY moden Canon, film or digital.

Whatever you end up with, take a pass on the kit lens. ;)

Tdragone

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 17:30

Any lens that is ef-s instead of ef will only fit on the 300D, 350D, 20D and 30D. They have a smaller sensor (aps-c I think) and the mirror is designed to flip out of the way. If you put an ef-s lens on another camera; when the mirror flips up to expose the sensor (or film) it will hit the mirror and probably break it.

This means you have an advantage when you are using a zoom (200mm lens is now 200mm * 1.6); but this hurts if you're wanting a wide angle. This is the reason for the ef-s 10-22 (Specially designed to be a wide angle lens on camera's with the smaller sensor)

Search the forum for 1.6 and crop factor and you will have more info than you need.

crn3371

11th of May 2006 (Thu), 18:08

With the XT going for half of what a 30D is going for, and with no real difference in picture quality between the two, a XT and a good lens, is a compelling argument. If money isn't an object, then go for the 30D, better build quality, bigger lcd, more features. Nice pic with the point and shoot.

bladepurveyor

12th of May 2006 (Fri), 14:07

thanks all...;) I appreciate the help!

AmericanFirst

12th of May 2006 (Fri), 16:44

Knife photos are always a challenge...

especially when all you have to display them is 100KB. Sheesh!

78119

grego

12th of May 2006 (Fri), 23:09

If its just knives, there's no real big advantage to the 30D over the XT. You can invest in a couple macro primes with the xt for the same amount as just the body alone of a 30d.

Coder33404

12th of May 2006 (Fri), 23:35

Really great shot, especially since it was with a point & shoot! Actually that is a really great shot even for a DSLR and I have to commend you on the post processing using Digital Image. I have used that program as well as Photoshop and if you can do that good with the Microsoft stuff I cant imagine what you could do with the far superior Adobe product. I use an XT with a Tamron 28-75 for images just like this but not knives. An XT would serve you well but keep in mind DSLR's require a little more ramping up than most people "including me" think they will coming from the point & shoot world. Previous film SLR experience is helpful but you have found one of the best resources in this forum anyhow. The people here have helped my abilities immensely so keep coming back.

bladepurveyor

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 11:04

Well, I got the rebel XT with the kit lense..thanks again for all of your help.....saving for the Canon Normal EF-S 60mm f/2.8 USM Macro NOW hopefully should have that next month...:D

Johnny V

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 11:14

> saving for the Canon Normal EF-S 60mm f/2.8 USM Macro

Get the Canon 100mm Macro so you will not be on top of the knives and have room to light properly.

Lighting will be most important part of shooting knives.

Congrats on the XT...

bladepurveyor

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 11:35

Johnny V

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 11:58

What lens do you have now? The factory zoom?

If a zoom I’d do some test still-life setups and see what focal lengths you constantly use. Then decide the between the 60mm or 100mm.

In a previous life I was a catalog shooter out of NYC...shot tons of Macy’s advertisements to name one client – with 4x5 and 8x10 cameras. With silverware I had my camera far enough away where I could light and add fill cards as needed. But also you don’t want to be so far away that you’ll be high on a ladder.

bladepurveyor

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 14:13

If a zoom I’d do some test still-life setups and see what focal lengths you constantly use. Then decide the between the 60mm or 100mm.

I hadn't thought of that...a good way for me to see what I really need...thanks for the tip!

Jon

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 15:32

Johnny V,
I decided on the 60mm because of this post... This seems to be exactly what I am looking for....Just thought of something..will this lense be subject to the 1.6 factor? if so isn't this more like a 100mm? or is the ef-s lense already corrected for the 1.6 factor....see give someone a little bit of information and they think they almost know what there talking about...:confused:
It's still a 60 mm. It'll behave exactly like any other 60 mm lens would on a 350D. The "1.6 factor", better known as the cra^hop factor, only refers to the angle of view of any given lens on the APS-C cameras compared to the same f.l. lens on a FF 35 mm camera. Focal length is an absolute property of a lens; all lens focal lengths are measured the same way. Which body it's used on doesn't make a bit of difference to that.

bladepurveyor

24th of May 2006 (Wed), 18:01

It's still a 60 mm. It'll behave exactly like any other 60 mm lens would on a 350D. The "1.6 factor", better known as the cra^hop factor, only refers to the angle of view of any given lens on the APS-C cameras compared to the same f.l. lens on a FF 35 mm camera. Focal length is an absolute property of a lens; all lens focal lengths are measured the same way. Which body it's used on doesn't make a bit of difference to that.

Jon,
Thank you ....I wasn't too sure on that, this new cra^hop factor is all new to me;) .....now I fully understand...:)

CanonConcord

25th of May 2006 (Thu), 08:00

Add my vote to the "always go for the glass" category.

For the type of shooting you are doing now, the XT would be a great camera. If you can not afford to buy the best lens you can get, then it doesn't make much sense to invest in a much more expensive camera body.

Enjoy!
:D

CanonConcord

25th of May 2006 (Thu), 08:01

Crop factor...

If you have a 50 mm lens, it is with a 1.6 crop factor actually an 80mm.

You have to multiply the lens "mm" number by 1.6.

bladepurveyor

25th of May 2006 (Thu), 08:56

Got it!;)

Jon

26th of May 2006 (Fri), 12:32

Crop factor...

If you have a 50 mm lens, it is with a 1.6 crop factor actually an 80mm.

You have to multiply the lens "mm" number by 1.6.It is NOT actually an 80 mm lens. It's still and always a 50 mm lens. The angle of view of the 50 mm lens on an APS-C camera corresponds to the angle of view of an 80 mm lens on a FF body, but the optics are different. That's why this is a "crap" factor, and you can backspace (^h) over the "a" to put in the more genteel "o". It's a photo taken with a FF body and 50 mm lens that you've cropped to match the smaller sensor area.

Kennymc

26th of May 2006 (Fri), 14:13

Nice one Jon, theres enough threads on the forum stating that point and maybe the big red letters will help it sink in... :lol:

Jon

26th of May 2006 (Fri), 14:16

I should probably bookmark it and just paste the link in every time I see "1.6" in a post.
:{)#

bladepurveyor

26th of May 2006 (Fri), 16:53

It is NOT actually an 80 mm lens. It's still and always a 50 mm lens. The angle of view of the 50 mm lens on an APS-C camera corresponds to the angle of view of an 80 mm lens on a FF body, but the optics are different. That's why this is a "crap" factor, and you can backspace (^h) over the "a" to put in the more genteel "o". It's a photo taken with a FF body and 50 mm lens that you've cropped to match the smaller sensor area.

HaHaHa....:D Ok so what your saying is it's NOTan 80mm lens.... I get it, I get it....I think.....;)

Jon

27th of May 2006 (Sat), 11:32

HaHaHa....:D Ok so what your saying is it's NOTan 80mm lens.... I get it, I get it....I think.....;) Right - it's always a 50 mm len. Post was aimed at CanonConcord's perpetuation of misunderstanding.

billmob

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 02:02

i think the Image quality will be similar for the 20d, xt and 30d, it is about the feel of the camera that you will be paying the extra dollars, in your position i would definetly go for the 20d because of build quality and excellent overall package, but the xt is an excellent camera as well and if you spend the money on a good lens you will get great knives pictures and enjoy the 10% time a lot too, good luck

Canonman47

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 04:49

I would go for the 20D and put as much money into the lenses as possible. If you've got good lenses, then maybe 30D is the thing, but it's not so much different from the 20D. (Have the 30D myself with 4.0/17-85mm lens myself).

CanonConcord

28th of May 2006 (Sun), 23:21

Kennymc

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 02:05

Goodness....you seem so worked up over this.

Of course the 50mm is always a 50mm and does not change magically into an 85 mm lens.

The point though, for people confused by the "crop factor," is simply to help them understand the impact of that crop factor on what a given focal length will provide them. In this case, an image comparable to what they would have if using a FF SLR with an 85mm lens.

I think your response was a tad over the top. Take deep cleansing breaths.

This is where the confusion lies "In this case, an image comparable to what they would have if using a FF SLR with an 85mm lens." an 80mm lens has a greater magnification than a 50mm lens... What you are actually getting is a cropped view of a 50mm lens...IE... A 50mm lens with the angle of view of an 80mm lens not the magnification that a 80mm lens would give...

Sorry if this is upsetting you but I've seen too many times people say "get a 20D/30D as it gives your lenses more reach" well It doesn't it only crops off the outer edges of the images...

Coder33404

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 10:38

This is where the confusion lies "In this case, an image comparable to what they would have if using a FF SLR with an 85mm lens." an 80mm lens has a greater magnification than a 50mm lens... What you are actually getting is a cropped view of a 50mm lens...IE... A 50mm lens with the angle of view of an 80mm lens not the magnification that a 80mm lens would give...

Sorry if this is upsetting you but I've seen too many times people say "get a 20D/30D as it gives your lenses more reach" well It doesn't it only crops off the outer edges of the images...
Were splitting hairs here! We need to keep in mind our job on these forums, to assist lesser experienced photographers and learn. I more fall into the latter category but know most us here for information so lets not get OFF point here.

Kennymc

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 11:43

Were splitting hairs here! We need to keep in mind our job on these forums, to assist lesser experienced photographers and learn. I more fall into the latter category but know most us here for information so lets not get OFF point here.

Again I apologise, but I thought the idea was to give people the FACTS not the assumption... Saying a 50mm is equivalent to an 80mm is more misleading than factual... ;)

sumozebra

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 14:17

Hmph. i dunno, i have to agree, your photo's great as it is, unless you're doing it for like a very strict company that wants super high quality photos, then i don't see why u'd need the dslr for photos like these. *unless you actually want a nice dslr for your own personal use as well, but imo i can't justify getting it purely for taking these knife photos since you do a great job as it is* DOF won't change even if you get the DSLR with your setup, since the photo will be on a white / background instead. for product photography, i'd highly suggest you spend say 100$ instead, and buy a product lightbox setup instead, say something like this" http://cgi.ebay.com/Portable-Shooting-Cube-Shooting-Tent-24-Cube-New_W0QQitemZ7623185045QQcategoryZ30088QQtcZphotoQ QcmdZViewItem

try that out first, since u're doing product photography, a product shoot table / cube would be the best investment, then work up from there.

but if you insist on getting DSLR, i'd go with the XT, and spend the god knows how much extra money compraed to buying a 5d, and get a nice L lens, and a tripod + the cube, you'll be taking awsome product photos.

my $0.02

First thanks for the compliments on my photo :D you guys really made my day ;-) ..the reason I want to get a better camera is to produce larger photo's...and have a better depth of field (Preview)...it took quite alot of shots to get this photo...I know I could do a better job with a dslr..but I did'nt know which type of lense to go with...can I ask why will the canon 60mm macro lense only fits on the 350xt and 20d or 30d and the others lenses mentioned will work on all others? it's this type of infomation I have no clue about..I truly appreciate any and all help you all have given me...:D

Oh yeah..this is a damascus blade knife..it's not wootz but similar...

CanonConcord

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 14:22

Again I apologise, but I thought the idea was to give people the FACTS not the assumption... Saying a 50mm is equivalent to an 80mm is more misleading than factual... ;)

Kenny, you are getting all worked up over nothing. For people who do not have your advanced understanding of optics, the distinctions you wish to assert as so important are meaningless and irrelevant.

The reality is that the crop factor does cause a 50mm to behave, in terms of the perceived focal length, like an 80.

Cool your jets guy, you are beginning to make yourself look like a man who forgot to take his meds.

Kennymc

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 14:42

Kenny, you are getting all worked up over nothing. For people who do not have your advanced understanding of optics, the distinctions you wish to assert as so important are meaningless and irrelevant.

The reality is that the crop factor does cause a 50mm to behave, in terms of the perceived focal length, like an 80.

Cool your jets guy, you are beginning to make yourself look like a man who forgot to take his meds.

I'm not worked up, just trying to get across the point that a 50mm lens will not behave like a 80mm one... For starters the DOF produced by a 50mm lens is greater than that of a 80mm lens per f/stop... The closest focusing distance of a 50mm lens is closer than that of a 80mm lens... I'm just a guy who is trying to put the facts across instead of misleading people and I haven't taken as much as an asprin in the last 6 years :lol: ... This is my last words on this subject as I don't want to highjack the thread, or baffle people with the facts :lol: ...

Bill Roberts

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 15:02

I'd suggest that the most cost effective solution is the rebel XT (350D over here) and the ef 50mm f/2.5. yes... it's a bit dated now and it's not a true 1:1 macro but 0.5x is probably fine for what you're going to use it for. Cost of this lens is around $230 as opposed to around $380 for the ef-s 60mm or $470 for the ef 100mm. Use the savings to go towards a decent tripod. You wouldn't see the benefit of a carbon fibre one as you're not planning to take it hiking, so look for a used good quality heavy aluminium one (no guys I haven't spelt it wrongly :) ) these seem to be going out of fashion as everyone is jumping towards CF and you can see some real bargains around which for studio use are ideal.
You'll eventually outgrow it and want something better/faster/sexier but we all do that...

cheers
Bill

Jon

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 15:12

Crop factor...

If you have a 50 mm lens, it is with a 1.6 crop factor actually an 80mm.

You have to multiply the lens "mm" number by 1.6.

Of course the 50mm is always a 50mm and does not change magically into an 85 mm lens.

Someone needs to work on his consistency.

Kenny, you are getting all worked up over nothing. For people who do not have your advanced understanding of optics, the distinctions you wish to assert as so important are meaningless and irrelevant.

The reality is that the crop factor does cause a 50mm to behave, in terms of the perceived focal length, like an 80.

Cool your jets guy, you are beginning to make yourself look like a man who forgot to take his meds.The distinctions, while you may not grasp them, are quite significant. For instance, DoF of a 50 on an APS-C and of an 80 on FF will be different. The "crop factor" comes up altogether too often on here, and we are constantly trying yet again (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45388) to see that board members get information that is helpful and, most of all, correct. It's not an easy concept to grasp, which is why there's so much misinformation about it, and why it's so important to get it right.

bladepurveyor

29th of May 2006 (Mon), 17:02

Hmph. i dunno, i have to agree, your photo's great as it is, unless you're doing it for like a very strict company that wants super high quality photos, then i don't see why u'd need the dslr for photos like these.
I am getting paid for these photo's...so I want the best image I can get...

DOF won't change even if you get the DSLR...Well I got it...I bought the Rebel XT
since the photo will be on white/backgrounds
I plan to use all sorts of back grounds...woods, granite, bamboo...etc

i'd highly suggest you spend say $100 instead and buy a product light box setup
I made my own light box..and it works great...so I don't need that..the next thing I am going to buy is the bogan/manfrotto 3021Bpro w/ 488RC2 ball head..that is in my budget...

My only other concern was buying the right lense...for this type of work...so far it looks like the 60mm ef-s lense was what was recommend most...:)

CanonConcord

30th of May 2006 (Tue), 06:24

Wow, I'm really beginning to wonder about some of the people on this forum. I made myself perfectly clear. Obviously a 50mm lens doesn't become an 80. You are simply confusing neophytes here and once more demonstrating the problem with people who are obsessing over equipment rather than photography.

If it makes you feel better to try to play this kind of game, fine, great, whatever.

I know all about DOF and everything else you are talking about.

The *point* is simply that the vast majority of people out there need a much more simple explanation of the "crop factor" and offering them all kinds of minutiae and technical jargon is not going to help.

But since you regard this as a problem nearly as significant as world hunger, good luck on your noble quest to dispell the clouds of ignorance surrounding this vital issue facing humankind.

:rolleyes:

Jon

30th of May 2006 (Tue), 10:30

What part of Crop factor...

If you have a 50 mm lens, it is with a 1.6 crop factor actually an 80mm.

You have to multiply the lens "mm" number by 1.6.
didn't you say, then? Seems pretty clear to me that you said a 50 on a crop body is an 80. We get many, many questions on here from people who think that because their EF-S lenses are "designed for the 350D" that they're somehow going to behave differently than the same focal length EF lens on their 350D. Posts like yours only perpetuate this confusion.

Since you made that post 14 hours after OP said Jon,
Thank you ....I wasn't too sure on that, this new cra^hop factor is all new to me .....now I fully understand... in response to my explanation, I fail to see what increase in clarity you thought you were offering.

AmericanFirst

2nd of June 2006 (Fri), 20:13

Look... take a piece of 8.5" x 11" paper.

Draw a picture on it from end to end.

Now... cut a 2" border in from each edge all the way around it.

What you have left is about 1.6x crop. That's effectively what happens to your focal length when you take a standard lens and put it on a 300D, 350D XT, 20D or 30D. You "ZOOM IN" that much more.

What? Do I have to draw a picture for you? LOL :D Just frame through the viewfinder... WYSIWYG! At minimum zoom... and it still does not fit... MANUAL ZOOM -> take another two steps back... repeat as necessary.

Welcome to the world of DCF (digital cropping factor) photography.