My new 430ex

[mapollo]

I picked up my first speedlite this morning (430ex) and popped it on my 20d and promptly flashed my parents to death. They will hate me for posting these but hey, it'll not be the first time they felt like that. So here goes

[mapollo]

and two more

[condyk]

Good efforts ... I like my wee flasher too. Shame I don't use it much. Maybe I need to buy a family :lol: :lol:

[mapollo]

Maybe I need to buy a family :lol: :lol:


That's why I bought it. I will get my use out of it photographing the children indoors.

I wouldn't advise buying a family though just so you could use your 430ex.

That would be kinda like buying a Boeing 737 just for the free peanuts :)

[drbenjamin]

These are lovely! Would you be willing to share the settings? I'm getting a 420EX later this week and don't know the 1st thing about flash, but with results like those I'm gonna learn!

[mapollo]

The Exif data will be stripped as I used CS2's "Save for web".

But as a guide

Camera : set to Manual, 1/80 F5.6 ISO 200

Flash : Bounced, ettl, adjust FEC to suit.

and experiment.

Keep an eye on your Histogram, expose to the right using the FEC + or - if necessary taking care not to overexpose.

Watch your white balance also. In one room I can use Auto White Balance for good results in another I need to use a Custom White Balance to get the result.

I'm not an expert though (I've had the flash for a day). I picked the above up from some old threads in the "flash" section of POTN.

If anyone has anything to add or correct feel free....

[zacker]

That would be kinda like buying a Boeing 737 just for the free peanuts :)

But its worth it to buy it for the mini bar!
-zacker-

[dmstraton]

mapollo, looks like you've got the basics...I use the same technique now.

If anybody else is reading: The best advice is experiment and expose to the right, as Mapollo suggests.

[Souwalker]

Great shots mapollo
I have the same flash too for awhile but I only tried it out over the weekend. My pictures are nowhere near as nice/natural as yours.
My settings were:
Camera set to Manual 1/80 f5.6 ISO 100
Flash at 45 degrees angle. ETTL with no omni bounce
WB as set to 'Flash'.

Was manual focusing difficult?
YOur setting was flash bounce. Did you use an omni bounce?
On my 430ex lcd screen it showed ETTL and also Zoom ----- mm. I am assuming this meant the zoom and manual zoom setting is off? I had the Sigma 18-200 lens attached but I am sure I was also using the 50mm focal length. What lens were you using?
I've alwasy had difficulty with flash photography even when I was using film hence I always avoided indore flash. If my pictures came out like yours, I'd be in flash heaven!!:D
Any help would be much appreciated.
Maybe I should post 1 or 2 of thos pictures?
Rgds
Patrick

[RAitch]

Why 45 degrees? I hope that means you have an omni bounce. If not, you should bounce the flash off the ceiling to get the nice soft background lighting (and lighting from above). A white card behind your flash will help illuminate any dark spots.

[Souwalker]

Why 45 degrees? I hope that means you have an omni bounce. If not, you should bounce the flash off the ceiling to get the nice soft background lighting (and lighting from above). A white card behind your flash will help illuminate any dark spots.

Hi RAitch
I recall reading one of your post you had the flash at 45 degrees. I must've have misunderstood you did that with a omni bounce. I don't have a bounce nor do I have a white card.
Would aimingnthe flash directly at the subject or boucing vertically on the ceiling achieve the above good results?
Mappollo mentioned bounced on his thread so that would be vertically up towards the ceiling?
Thanks
pat

[Souwalker]

If anybody else is reading: The best advice is experiment and expose to the right, as Mapollo suggests.

Expose to the right? Would you please elaborate on this. The flash manual is next to hopeless and I always had terribly flash indoors pics even with film hence I always avoid it:(

Many Thanks
pat

[RAitch]

Hi RAitch
I recall reading one of your post you had the flash at 45 degrees. I must've have misunderstood you did that with a omni bounce. I don't have a bounce nor do I have a white card.
Would aimingnthe flash directly at the subject or boucing vertically on the ceiling achieve the above good results?
Mappollo mentioned bounced on his thread so that would be vertically up towards the ceiling?
Thanks
pat
Yeah, I think I mentioned it when I said 45. The Omnibounce sheet recommends that as the "best" angle to mix direct and bounced flash.

Aiming the flash at the ceiling will produce really nice lighting (soft and even).

By white card... I literally mean a white piece of paper... like a "Q" card. Use an elastic to hold the paper on the flash and cut it so it's just as wide as your flash. Then just extend it above the flash about 3 inches on your side of it. That'll deflect some light forward at your subject.

[RAitch]

Expose to the right? Would you please elaborate on this. The flash manual is next to hopeless and I always had terribly flash indoors pics even with film hence I always avoid it:(

Many Thanks
pat
Expose to the right means to make the histogram end at the right edge (bright portion) where most of the image data is.
When you look at the histogram, you should see the graph level out right near the right edge which could leave some empty space on the left (dark) side of the image.

While this is a good technique to get as much data into your image... a "proper" exposure is sometimes better and will leave you with less PP. Not to contradict any posts here though... you generally want to expose to the right... but always play around and take several exposures at different settings.

[mapollo]

Was manual focusing difficult?
YOur setting was flash bounce. Did you use an omni bounce?
On my 430ex lcd screen it showed ETTL and also Zoom ----- mm.
What lens were you using?
Patrick

I didn't use manual focus. The camera was in "M" but I used Auto Focus.

No omnibounce. I bounced the flash vertical.

If you aim the flash directly at the subject you will get in your case "Zoom 50mm" on the display when you focus on the subject, but if you bounce the flash at any angle that is disabled so you will get "Zoom ----mm".

I was using the 17-40 F4L.....

[Souwalker]

I didn't use manual focus. The camera was in "M" but I used Auto Focus.

No omnibounce. I bounced the flash vertical.

If you aim the flash directly at the subject you will get in your case "Zoom 50mm" on the display when you focus on the subject, but if you bounce the flash at any angle that is disabled so you will get "Zoom ----mm".

I was using the 17-40 F4L.....

You mean, I could have the camera (even 350D) set to manual and use Auto focus? How? Ah...turn the dial to M but leave the AF/M switch on the lens to AF? is that correct? But won't some lens have trouble auto focusing in low light even if ceiling lights and other lights are on?
The flash was viertical straight at the ceiling?
Thanks
pat

[mapollo]

You mean, I could have the camera (even 350D) set to manual and use Auto focus? How? Ah...turn the dial to M but leave the AF/M switch on the lens to AF? is that correct? But won't some lens have trouble auto focusing in low light even if ceiling lights and other lights are on?
The flash was viertical straight at the ceiling?
Thanks
pat

Yes turn the dial to M but leave the lens in AF.

I don't have time this morning to look in the paper manual that came with the 430ex so someone else will have to confirm or deny this but I think the flash may emit a beam to assist you to focus in low light.

Just slide the 430ex out of the pouch as you have stored it and mount on the 350d. I guess we are calling that vertical but I suppose if you look at the camera with the flash mounted in that position it is angled slightly towards the subject.

I hope thats clear if not ask again.

I would apppreciate if someone would confirm (or deny)that the flash would emit a sort of focus assist beam when necessary.

[RAitch]

It will emit a focus assist beam. You should see either a horizontal or vertical set of red bars on your subject. Those lines help the camera/lens determine the focal point.
I'm not sure if they fire ALL the time, but they will if there's a problem focussing (dark room)... just like when the on camera flash fires a strobe.

If you look on the front of the flash in the red plastic part, you should see two spots. One has vertical lines and the other has horizontal lines. I think based on which focal point you have selected, the camera will communicate to the flash and tell it which set of bars to emit.
Certain focal points only pick on contrast on one plane (vert / horiz). The center point picks up contrast on both planes.

I think there's also a custom function that allows you to restrict the flash from emiting the red beams.

[RAitch]

Also, I remember reading that certain flashes are "tuned" to certain bodies. I think this probably has something to do with the assist beams crossing focal points (among other things probably). The XT and 20D/30D have different focal point configurations. If the beam doesn't cross the focal point, focus might still be hard to lock.

I think I read the 430EX was "calibrated" or "tuned" to a 20D... but I could be wrong. I'm sure that information would be easy to find online.

[Souwalker]

Here are 2 pictures I took tonight. The flash was vertical pointing to the ceiling.
ISO200
Camera M mode Shutter 80 Aperture f5.6
WB auto

What am I doing wrong?
Thanks

[pristic]

Hi What is the metering set to? Spot, Centre Weighted or Average?
Its either a dot . or (.) or a square[].

What colour is the ceiling?
Is your flash on Auto or manual?

Looks like its throwing the colour off because of the house. But maybe not... Mine does not do this.

I have the 350D and the 430EX on mine.


Peter.

[mapollo]

AWB (I find) works well outdoors but indoors it can have problems.

Your images seem to have a white balance that is a little off (the photos are a little warm ie orangey).

Assuming you shot JPG I would reshoot and try one of the white balance settings that may suit the ambient lighting (tungsten,flash,or fluorescent).

Better still set a custom white balance (see your 350d manual) by taking a shot of a white piece of paper under the same lighting conditions and using that shot to set your custom white balance..

Alternatively if you are comfortable with RAW, shoot RAW using AWB and then alter the white balance in your RAW converter to suit using either a preset or custom adjustment.

The second shot could perhaps use a little more light in the faces of the subjects. You could experiment with FEC adding a little more power if possible and also try the tip from RAitch earlier in the thread......

"By white card... I literally mean a white piece of paper... like a "Q" card. Use an elastic to hold the paper on the flash and cut it so it's just as wide as your flash. Then just extend it above the flash about 3 inches on your side of it. That'll deflect some light forward at your subject."

I haven't tried that myself but it should help in getting a little more light when needed into the faces of the subjects.

Remember I'm only a novice at this myself if anyone sees the above in a different "light" feel free to put me right.

Hope that helps.....

[zacker]

Souwalker. is there a pinkish color paint on your walls or ceilings? That could be why the shot has that color... did you try a custom white balance? Try it... it looks as though you have some sort of tan walls? If i bounce off the ceiling in one room of my house, it picks up the yellow, worse it also picks up the green from the walls, sorta like lemon/lime lights!
lol
-zacker-

[rwong2k]

I picked up my first speedlite this morning (430ex) and popped it on my 20d and promptly flashed my parents to death. They will hate me for posting these but hey, it'll not be the first time they felt like that. So here goes

Just curious, is it bounced,throuhg a difusser? direct flash?

[mapollo]

Just curious, is it bounced,throuhg a difusser? direct flash?

Just bounced (No diffuser)....

[Souwalker]

The flash was set to auto (ETTL) on the lcd display.
I tried WB of tungsten but it gave a very bluish result.
Metering was set to 'Evaluating'. Square it think.
The walls are tan in colour but the flash was pointing vertically up the ceiling. Ceiling colour in the entire house is white.
I will try custom WB but I would need to learn how to do this as yet. Have not tried it at all.
many Thanks
Pat

[Souwalker]

Hi What is the metering set to? Spot, Centre Weighted or Average?
Its either a dot . or (.) or a square[].

What colour is the ceiling?
Is your flash on Auto or manual?

Looks like its throwing the colour off because of the house. But maybe not... Mine does not do this.

I have the 350D and the 430EX on mine.


Peter.

Hi Peter
What would your indoor settings be?
Many Thanks
Patrick

[Souwalker]

Peter
What would your indoor settings be?
Thanks
Pat

[pristic]

Hi Patrick,

Well, depends on what I am shooting and the colour of the walls/ceiling.
You need to remember that light picks up colour. Dont think about it, just know that if you have a RED ceiling and you take a picture bouncing the flash, the colour will be red.

Look here:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=141174

I took a shot with on camera flash and then with the 430ex pointed at about 60deg.
See the wall, its deep red coloured.
I took another photo and pointed the flash at the RED wall. I was about 40cm from that wall. The person in the photo came out all RED.

For the two photos above the I was messing around, so the settings were something like:
1/15
f5.6
18mm
ISO-400
Metering mode: Partial

Thats it...

Here is my very best suggestion and I think someone mentioned it.
Use custom white balance in the bathroom where the child was.
You need to take a picture in there of a white peice of paper... then in your white balance choose custom and then choose the picture of the white paper.

Take a new photo in there of something and you will see big differences.

Cheers,
Peter.

[Souwalker]

Hi Patrick,

Well, depends on what I am shooting and the colour of the walls/ceiling.
You need to remember that light picks up colour. Dont think about it, just know that if you have a RED ceiling and you take a picture bouncing the flash, the colour will be red.

Look here:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=141174

I took a shot with on camera flash and then with the 430ex pointed at about 60deg.
See the wall, its deep red coloured.
I took another photo and pointed the flash at the RED wall. I was about 40cm from that wall. The person in the photo came out all RED.

For the two photos above the I was messing around, so the settings were something like:
1/15
f5.6
18mm
ISO-400
Metering mode: Partial

Thats it...

Here is my very best suggestion and I think someone mentioned it.
Use custom white balance in the bathroom where the child was.
You need to take a picture in there of a white peice of paper... then in your white balance choose custom and then choose the picture of the white paper.

Take a new photo in there of something and you will see big differences.

Cheers,
Peter.

Hi Peter
You're from downunder?
Had a look at your 2 pictures. I am assumming the second shot was bounced?
Pat

[pristic]

Hey Patrick,

Yep, Sydney (Kellyville area)
Yes, second shot is bounced with the 430ex

Where are you in Syd?

Peter.

PS: Are we hijacking this thread?

[Souwalker]

Hey Patrick,

Yep, Sydney (Kellyville area)
Yes, second shot is bounced with the 430ex

Where are you in Syd?

Peter.

PS: Are we hijacking this thread?

Kellyville?
I live in West Pennant Hills. Not too far. In fact I have a good friend who lives in Kellyville and my daughter plays netball at the kellyville ground :-)
Yes we are hijacking this thread and should keep this offline.
Sorry folk...back to business.
I'll try to experiment more and report back my results asap.
Thanks

[Mr. Clean]

Soulwalker I'd concur that it's your white balance throwing things off since your pictures look good except for the color. Do you have a RAW convertor? If so I could try to help you adjust your pictures (as long as you shoot them in RAW), if not, go to here: http://www.pixmantec.com/products/rawshooter_essentials.asp and download it. This will be your road to flash salvation.
OR
Create a custom white balance...

[RAitch]

Grab a white piece of paper, take a shot of it in the same light as your subject. Fill the partial/spot metering circle with the white (I prefer to fill the frame with the page to ensure proper exposure of the paper).
You'll probably have to switch to manual focus to take the shot or it'll just keep hunting. The paper doesn't have to be in focus.

Then, go into your camera menu and look for the option to set a custom white balance. When you select this option, you'll see the image browser. Press the select/OK button on the image of the white paper (which probably won't LOOK white) and the camera will analyze the colour cast in the image.

Next, you'll have to change your white balance from AWB (or whatever it's set to) to the custom WB option. The icon looks like a ball between two ramps. If you're not in that mode, when you select the image, a message will appear reminding you to change the WB mode.

Now, when you take shots, the colour will be correct... or as correct as your paper is white. Normal sheets of paper are close enough. You can use a grey card if you want, but you don't have to buy white paper. And sometimes you'll have to make minor adjustments to a grey-card image anyway... so free plain white paper will work. I use it all the time.

When you're done, don't forget to change the WB back to AWB... or just always make sure you check it (along with ISO) whenever you start to use your camera.
Whenever you turn the camera on (non 1-series) you can press the info button to get a summary page of your settings.

[mrklaw]

should you use the flash when setting a custom white balance?

I've had problems not from the wall/ceiling colour, but from different temperature lights in the room (halogen spots or tungsten bulbs)

so would custom white balance help with this, or is it simpler to shoot RAW when you know you'll be using flash, and take one shot of a white sheet of paper to use as reference?

[Mr. Clean]

should you use the flash when setting a custom white balance?

I've had problems not from the wall/ceiling colour, but from different temperature lights in the room (halogen spots or tungsten bulbs)

so would custom white balance help with this, or is it simpler to shoot RAW when you know you'll be using flash, and take one shot of a white sheet of paper to use as reference?
I've done CWB with the flash and have had good results. Not sure if it's dumb luck or........
I do know that you'd have to set your CWB to the light you are in, if you go from halogen spots to tungsten, you'll have to set two seperate white balances. Or, shoot all in RAW and hope that you have a neutral object to get the CWB from or one of the presets work.

[mapollo]

What's below is not a scientific test but I've been experimenting with RAitch's "piece of white paper fastened to the back of the speedlite" tip which he mentioned earlier.

It seems to work as I think you will see below. The shots were taken with the same settings at same location (minutes apart) but with a slightly different focal length.

Without the piece of paper....

[mapollo]

Below is the shot with the paper attached with the rubber band.

M mode 1/80, F5.6 , ISO 200 , ettl , Fec +2/3 (on flash) on both shots.

[RAitch]

That paper is throwing A LOT of light forward... enough to cast a shadow on her neck.
How big was the paper you're using? You should only need it as wide as your flash and about 2 to 3 inches above it... with the flash aimed straight up.

It's nice that you can see her eyes there!! It almost looks like the effects of a direct flash though... something's too strong there. I see now you dialed in +2/3 FEC. Try it again with 0FEC (on flash and on camera) and you should get the nice mixture of the 2 images.

I made a nice Photoshop CS2 action for flash photography that will tone down the hightlights and bring the skin colour back.

I've used CWB with flash as well.... but for the most part, AWB will work well with a flash (or you can try the flash WB mode)

[mapollo]

That paper is throwing A LOT of light forward... enough to cast a shadow on her neck.
How big was the paper you're using? You should only need it as wide as your flash and about 2 to 3 inches above it... with the flash aimed straight up.

Try it again with 0FEC (on flash and on camera) and you should get the nice mixture of the 2 images.

I made a nice Photoshop CS2 action for flash photography that will tone down the hightlights and bring the skin colour back.


The paper was about 4 inches high and glossy (if that makes a difference).

I'll try tomorrow with 2 to 3 inches of paper and 0 Fec. I took around 6 photos and all the people shots have the same shadow around the neck. Thanks for pointing that out I'd missed it.

Thanks for your help....

[Souwalker]

Grab a white piece of paper, take a shot of it in the same light as your subject. Fill the partial/spot metering circle with the white (I prefer to fill the frame with the page to ensure proper exposure of the paper).
You'll probably have to switch to manual focus to take the shot or it'll just keep hunting. The paper doesn't have to be in focus.

Then, go into your camera menu and look for the option to set a custom white balance. When you select this option, you'll see the image browser. Press the select/OK button on the image of the white paper (which probably won't LOOK white) and the camera will analyze the colour cast in the image.

Next, you'll have to change your white balance from AWB (or whatever it's set to) to the custom WB option. The icon looks like a ball between two ramps. If you're not in that mode, when you select the image, a message will appear reminding you to change the WB mode.

Now, when you take shots, the colour will be correct... or as correct as your paper is white. Normal sheets of paper are close enough. You can use a grey card if you want, but you don't have to buy white paper. And sometimes you'll have to make minor adjustments to a grey-card image anyway... so free plain white paper will work. I use it all the time.

When you're done, don't forget to change the WB back to AWB... or just always make sure you check it (along with ISO) whenever you start to use your camera.
Whenever you turn the camera on (non 1-series) you can press the info button to get a summary page of your settings.

Thanks RAitch
I will attemtp to do this tonight after my soccer game. Over 35 soccer competition :D
You mentioned above 'fill the partial/spot metering circle. I am using 'Evaluate'. Do I need to change to partial or spot?
I noticed in your earlier, earlier post, there was mention about CF4-0 and CF4-1. I know they are custom settings but I cant find these nos. on my flash manual nor the camera manual. They are different.
Thanks
Pat

[RAitch]

For setting the custom white balance, you only have to fill the circle with the white paper. It'll evaluate what's inside the circle only... even if your camera is set on evaluative. I think I remember doing a test with a small white piece of paper on top of a red blanket. Even though the red was in the frame (yet outside of the circle) it didn't affect the white balance.

I prefer to fill the entire frame with the white... mainly... so I know it'll be exposed correctly and colour won't be an issue.

Once you use that image to set the custom WB, you can even delete the image. After you select the image, the camera studies it and figures out how to neutralize the colour cast. It then stores those settings (in the custom WB memory) until you change it again.
When you look at the 'white' image... it'll appear to be coloured because the neutral coloured white paper will pick up the colour. So, if you have a yellowish tint in your lighting... the image will look yellow. Then the camera will try to figure out how to REMOVE the yellow.

What camera are you using again Pat?

If you go into the menu of your camera, there will be an option near the end for Custom Functions. In there, there's a list of custom functions that you can change. CF4 controls how you focus and how you lock exposure.

[Souwalker]

RAitch
I have the 350D.
Do you put the paper on the floor, wall, table?? Would the flash be put vertically as well?
What about taking a picture of a white wall in the bathroom?
Rgds
Pat

[RAitch]

350D (XT) only has partial metering... not spot... and doesn't have a circle... so just try to fill as much of the frame as possible.

Ideally, you want to put the paper in the same light as your subject. If your subject is on the floor.... put it there. If it's on the wall, put it there. Just hold your left arm out with the paper, and take a MF shot with your right hand.

Ever see photogtaphers holding up a light meter in front of a model's face? They're measuring the light as it is at their subject. Do the same thing with the white paper. Mind you, you don't have to hold the paper right in front of somebody's face... just make sure it's in the same light.

You can run into trouble if you take the WB shot in a different area... like in the shade vs sunlight.

You can take a picture of the wall... but most white walls or ceilings aren't really white... but they're close enough. Using a normal piece of white paper (or a mid-grey micro fibre cloth if you have one) is proabably a better idea.

[Souwalker]

Just hold your left arm out with the paper, and take a MF shot with your right hand.


If I hold my left arm out with the paper, I would not be able to focus manually with my right hand holding the camera. Do I pre focus? I am abit lost here.

Rgds
Pat

[RAitch]

the paper doesn't have to be in focus... the colour cast is the important thing.
Just switch the lens to MF, hold the paper out, take the shot. Since it's on MF, it won't need to aquire focus on the paper.

[Souwalker]

the paper doesn't have to be in focus... the colour cast is the important thing.
Just switch the lens to MF, hold the paper out, take the shot. Since it's on MF, it won't need to aquire focus on the paper.

RAitch
Switch lens to MF, understood but what settings do I use for the camera? M too? Then what shutter speed and Apeture?
Pat

[mapollo]

RAitch
Switch lens to MF, understood but what settings do I use for the camera? M too? Then what shutter speed and Apeture?
Pat

Why not use M and the same settings you are going to take the shots with.eg 1/80 F5.6.

I wouldn't think what mode, shutter speed and aperture you use really matters, as long as the exposure of the paper is decent.

[RAitch]

Pat, you're making this harder than it needs to be. Don't worry... it's not difficult.
There are NO magic settings for ANYTHING. Just take the shot and adjust and learn from your mistakes.

I'd say, white shoot the shot in Av mode just to ensure it's properly exposed. And shoot it with 0EC dialed in (so it'll show up as a mid tone - not blown out or too dark to have valuable colour info).

Since you're handholding, shutter speed is normally an issue (especially when you're using one hand). In this case, it doesn't matter if the paper is blurry or in focus. Either way, it'll capture the colour information from your lighting.
I think I even read somewhere that blurry is better so minor details in the paper or marks on it won't affect the outcome... but even then your colour shouldn't be THAT far off.

Just do it. Like I said, it's not difficult. If your settings are a bit off, it won't matter.
When you're taking the ACTUAL shot, pay attention to your settings. Avoid long shutter speeds for people shots (unless you want them soft and blurry).

Another thing, you don't have to shoot the paper before EVERY shot. Only when the lighting changes. The camera will store the settings so you can even turn the camera off and it'll remember the custom WB settings.
So don't think you have to keep whiping out the paper, change modes, and shoot it and set the WB every time!

The idea is to get as close to possible out of the camera... then you can "tweak" in PP later. Tweaking is WAYYYY better than huge colour cast changes in PP... so just get it close.

[Souwalker]

I have some promising news to report. I've did a custom WB as instructed and my shots are coming out much much nicer. I was simply taking shots of the kitchen area as my models (2 daughters) are asleep.
I need to experiment more :)
Should I turn on AF Assist Beam for both my flash and camera?
Looking goooood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many Thanks to all and especially the patience shown on this topic.
It's not perfect but I will perservia.
I will take more shots tomorrow night and will post them for more comments from this great bunch of people here.
Rgds
Pat

[Souwalker]

Oh, I am actially going to a restuarant for dinner tomorrow. Lighting will definitely be different from home. I will do another CWB and will post results too.
Rgds
Pat

[Mr. Clean]

Good to hear!

[zacker]

RAitch, you da man!
-zacker-

[mapollo]

OK RAitch I tried a few more flash shots using your "piece of paper- elastic band" advice with FEC reduced from last nights +2/3 to Zero or -1/3.

I did get a more balanced exposure with less shadows. I also replaced the glossy card I used last night with plain paper.

If I 'd have taken the photo below last night with the glossy paper and +ve FEC I'd have had a shadow behind the subject I'm sure.

[RAitch]

That looks pretty good... are you happy with that?
Play with the settings and figure out what works better.
I use white plastic on my flash with velcro tabs. I cut it out of a binder page turner. Got tired of the flimsy paper and un-professional look.

The wall looks a little blown out in that shot. Was your EC set to zero? Did you use * to lock FE on something?

The aperature looks good where it's surrounding the entire head and making him pop off the page. Don't forget though, you CAN try faster (like F4 or 2.8 ) but you'll lose DOF. Personally, I like portraits where the DOF surrounds the subject and they appear perfectly sharp.

[Souwalker]

Should I turn on AF Assist Beam for both my flash and camera?
Thanks
Pat

[mapollo]

That looks pretty good... are you happy with that?
Play with the settings and figure out what works better.
I use white plastic on my flash with velcro tabs. I cut it out of a binder page turner. Got tired of the flimsy paper and un-professional look.

The wall looks a little blown out in that shot. Was your EC set to zero? Did you use * to lock FE on something?

The aperature looks good where it's surrounding the entire head and making him pop off the page. Don't forget though, you CAN try faster (like F4 or 2.8 ) but you'll lose DOF. Personally, I like portraits where the DOF surrounds the subject and they appear perfectly sharp.

I think I am happy with that.

I haven't tried my nifty fifty with my new flash yet so I will try shooting at larger apertures but I know what you mean about losing DOF. The depth of field at 1.8 is brutally narrow and with moving kids you need to be lucky. Of course I don't need to shoot wide open if I have the flash so I will try F2.8 or F4 but I 'm like you most of the time(I prefer enough dof to surround the subject).

Was my EC set to zero? I took the shot in "M". My FEC was either zero or -1/3.

I don't think the rear wall is blown out according to levels in PS (see below), but it does look like it but it is a plain painted wall.

One more question. What effect on the exposure does increasing the ISO generally have? I shot a few at ISO 200 and then some at ISO 100 and couldn't see the difference .
I know about digi noise what I mean is what effect does ISO have on the lighting/exposure?

Thanks again for your help....

[RAitch]

Cool!
The main thing you may notice is that less light is required for higher ISO... so your flash won't fire as hard and won't need as much time to cycle.
Since there's less power, you may notice a change in the background of your image as well. It depends on your situation and what you're shooting.

I concentrate on flash power... as I find even ISO 400 isn't noticeable on my 30D. Since most of the image is illuminated (bounce flash) the ISO noise is minimal. You'd notice more with direct flash where the background is darker.

I'm not a fan of the 50 1.8... AT ALL! However, in daylight and with flash it performs a little better. Make sure you use it stopped down to AT LEAST 2.8 for best results though. I find (with my copy at least) that focus is sketchy wider than 2.8.

EC and FEC are 2 different things. EC controls your main image exposure while FEC will adjust the flash output, thus also affecting image exposure.
You can have your EC set to +1 and your FEC set to -1. They're 2 different things.

You're right about the wall from that histrogram. Must just be because it's a plain white wall. It looks like there's some bleeding into his hair too. That would look much better with some colour back there.

Let me know what you find out with your ISO and flash testing. You should see some minor changes.... try comparing ISO 800 with ISO 100 and try bounce and direct. You'll be surprised how in some situations you can pretty much black out the background by changing the settings.

[Souwalker]

Here are some shots I took last night at a restaurant and tonight at home in my room. I wish I could upload more to get more advise on how they could be improved. They are much much better from the once I took a few days ago. These new batch have been custom white balanced with a white sheet of paper. The restuarant's ceiling were average in height with halogen celieng lights. Some came out not too bad and some had quite a bit of shadow. I had the flash vertically facing the ceiling.
Here's one that was quite dark although I was quite close to the subjects:

[Souwalker]

One was taken in the kitchen and the other in our room.

[Souwalker]

What would the correct way to go say if the:

Ceiling was higher then usual making vertical bounce flash impossible? What do I do under these situation?
What to use if using AV as fill flash indoor day or night. What aperture do I use? I treid a few times yesterday @5.6 and the shutter was too slow and I got blurry pics. Do I open the aperture wider for a faster shutter speed?Many Thanks
Pat

[mapollo]

Your white balance now looks much better.

Do you review the histogram after a shot? and then increase the FEC either on camera or flash if the shot appears to be under exposed on the histogram?

I think you should also try RAitch's tip of using a small piece of white paper the same width as your speedlite and about 4 inches high. Use an elastic band to fasten this to the back of your speedlite and having it sticking up by around 3 inches.

The idea is when you have your flash vertical, and it fires, some of the light is thrown forward by the paper into the face of the subjects.

See the two photos of my daughter I posted on page 3 of this thread. One is without paper one is with. The one with the paper really get's into her eyes and remember both shots were taken in the same lighting with the same settings. I did use too much FEC though (+2/3 I think) on that second photo. I've since set the FEC to Zero or even -1/3 and got much better results.

You are getting there (keep experimenting and asking questions).

[mapollo]

What would the correct way to go say if the:

Ceiling was higher then usual making vertical bounce flash impossible? What do I do under these situation?
What to use if using AV as fill flash indoor day or night. What aperture do I use? I treid a few times yesterday @5.6 and the shutter was too slow and I got blurry pics. Do I open the aperture wider for a faster shutter speed?Many Thanks
Pat


1. Then you would have to fire direct. This is where some sort of diffuser at 45 degrees I think would come in handy to soften the harsh flash.(I've never used one that's my next purchase)

2. You could shoot with a wider aperture ie F4 or 2.8 and it would give you faster shutter speed, but don't forget you can also increase your ISO to also help you gain a faster shutter when reqd. You'd need a minium of 1/60 sec for portraits anything slower and you are risking camera shake.

Remember though you get more digital noise with the higher ISO values, I've never used a 350d but I think you'd get away with ISO 800 on a well exposed photograph

[Souwalker]

Do I need to turn on AF Assist Beam for the Flash and camera?
Pat

[RAitch]

AF assist beam is for focus... nothing to do with exposure. The beams help the camera lock onto your subject by casting lines that it can focus on.

You can also adjust your bounce set-up to 45 degrees without a diffuser with high ceilings... or just shoot vertical anyway.

Shooting direct gives different results... but can work well.

Another thing to play around with is shooting direct but folding the paper loosly over the flash and use the elastic on the other side to hold it there. Aim direct like that and up close you get some interesting results. (it's hard to do with a plastic bounce card like mine though)

Pat, what metering mode are you using?

[RAitch]

Never mind... looks like it was evaluative for all of them.
Weird, the middle one looks overexposed compared to the other ones and seems to have way more direct flash.

[Souwalker]

Never mind... looks like it was evaluative for all of them.
Weird, the middle one looks overexposed compared to the other ones and seems to have way more direct flash.

I think I was experimenting with aperture 7 instead of 5.6 for the middle one.
pat

[Souwalker]

Your white balance now looks much better.

Do you review the histogram after a shot? and then increase the FEC either on camera or flash if the shot appears to be under exposed on the histogram?

I think you should also try RAitch's tip of using a small piece of white paper the same width as your speedlite and about 4 inches high. Use an elastic band to fasten this to the back of your speedlite and having it sticking up by around 3 inches.

The idea is when you have your flash vertical, and it fires, some of the light is thrown forward by the paper into the face of the subjects.

See the two photos of my daughter I posted on page 3 of this thread. One is without paper one is with. The one with the paper really get's into her eyes and remember both shots were taken in the same lighting with the same settings. I did use too much FEC though (+2/3 I think) on that second photo. I've since set the FEC to Zero or even -1/3 and got much better results.

You are getting there (keep experimenting and asking questions).

I don;t know how to interpret a histogram :(
I have on order an omni bounce which I can then use at a 45 degree angle on any situation?
Rgds
Pat

[Souwalker]

AF assist beam is for focus... nothing to do with exposure. The beams help the camera lock onto your subject by casting lines that it can focus on.

You can also adjust your bounce set-up to 45 degrees without a diffuser with high ceilings... or just shoot vertical anyway.

Shooting direct gives different results... but can work well.

Another thing to play around with is shooting direct but folding the paper loosly over the flash and use the elastic on the other side to hold it there. Aim direct like that and up close you get some interesting results. (it's hard to do with a plastic bounce card like mine though)

Pat, what metering mode are you using?

I had one shot where I forgot to adjust the flash vertically (forward firing). the result was still quite good but the background was black. I immediately adjusted my flash and took another shot of the same position and subject but this time the background was nicely lite..nice colour maroon wall and the picutre on the wall was nicely exposed too.
An omni diffusor is on it's way.
Rgds
Pat

[RAitch]

I think I was experimenting with aperture 7 instead of 5.6 for the middle one.
pat
No, the exif shows 5.6 as well.

[Souwalker]

No, the exif shows 5.6 as well.

Mmmh...weird. Would sitting right under a halogen ceiling light overexpose the picture?
Pat

[RAitch]

I don;t know how to interpret a histogram :(
I have on order an omni bounce which I can then use at a 45 degree angle on any situation?
Rgds
Pat
The histogram shows the image detail as a graph in luminocity. The left represents pure black (0 brightness), the right edge represents pure white (full brightness), and everything between are shades of grey (various brightness).
The spot right in the middle represents mid grey... which is basically halfway between black and white.

Think of it this way... if you looked at every pixel (dot) in the image and figured out it's luminocity as it relates to black (left edge) and white (right edge) and graphed the results... you end up with the histogram.

So, when the histogram looks like a normal bell curve, that means that there's little black... and little white... but there are more values in the mid range.

If the histogram was totally flat, that would mean there are equal amounts of every luminocity. I guess the only way to get a result like that would be to take a picture of a gradient from white to black.

Anyway, if you look at the histogram and it seems that more values in the graph fall to the right side of center... this is over exposed.
If more values are left of center, that's under exposed.
** keep in mind, these might appear to be exposed correctly... those are just definitions **


You may hear people talking about exposing to the right. What does that mean? It means that you want the right edge of the histogram curve to fall just before the right edge. That will avoid blowouts (blowouts appear when values go beyond the right edge -- pure white) and will most probably overexpose the image some.
Why would you want to do this? More data is stored in the brightest parts of the image.
** There are around 5 stops of visible light captured in the image. The brightest stop holds as much data as the darkest 4 stops combined. This also explains why you see digital noise in the dark spots of your images **

Personally, I prefer to find the best exposure and normally only use "exposing to the right" as a starting point.


How do you see the histogram? When you're in play mode, press the info button twice. This will show your image, with info including settings... and will display the histogram.


With the omni bounce, you'd use it at 45 degrees indoors... and can really use it at 45 outside too. You can also play around and use it straight on or vertical as well.
Personally, I find the white card technique gives a nicer resulting image. The omni bounce tends to throw too much light forward (for my liking) and tends to flatten the image too much.

Remember, there's no magic settings for every situation... there are however good guidelines to get you started. Once you're started, don't fit into a mold... and try new things.

Be creative... shoot your flash through a coffee container lid... or into a reflector.... or a piece of white paper if you have one. I've seen several photo journalists shooting into a white notepad/clipboard holding it with their free hand above the flash to bounce into it. Try shooting into a wall (careful with WB... set custom WB so it doesn't pick up colour) or off the floor. Flipping your camera up side down and bouncing off the floor sounds silly... but you can get a pretty cool effect.
TRY ANYTHING! You'll learn a lot through experimentation. Don't feel bad when something doesn't work out.

[RAitch]

Mmmh...weird. Would sitting right under a halogen ceiling light overexpose the picture?
Pat
It might if your settings 5.6@1/80 would overexpose the image without flash.
Sitting directly under a light might just do that.
When shooting with flash in M mode... you can still keep an eye on the meter and make sure it doesn't pass by the mid point. If so, you've got too much light.

In this case, start turning up your shutter speed... more shutter speed will never hurt!

[Souwalker]

http://desouza.smugmug.com/gallery/1475295/1/70512543

Here's a link to some of the shots I took at that restuarant Saturday night.
Overall, the results are a much much improvement over my pre-CWB shots o the other post. I just know the shots on Saturday could be improved further.
Pls have a look a give me pointers to look out for.
The place had halogen celing lights. Ceiling not high at all.
many thanks
pat

[mapollo]

I don;t know how to interpret a histogram :(

Pat

Learning how to interpret a histogram will greatly improve your photography both flash and non flash.

Have a read of the link below and ask questions if there is anything you need to know.

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-3286,subcat-HOBBIES.html