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View Full Version : 1D MKIIN Successor - FPS v Sensor Size?


nation
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 10:34
To all those who keep up with the technology side of things do you think it's feasible for Canon to introduce a IIN successor that's full frame yet maintains FPS while being at the same/similar price point as the existing IIN? 8.2 MP is all I need but 10 MP would be nice. Do you think 10MP, FF and 8.5 FPS is possible for Canon without blowing their R&D budget or is going for 8.2 MP and 8.5 FPS and adding in FF a stretch?

As it stands now the IIN specs are great for my needs. I'm not looking to upgrade now though :) However, when it comes time to upgrade what I'm after is versatility - I want my wides to behave like wides yet be able to use the same body's shooting speed at the ball game.

Ronald S. Jr.
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 11:44
I do not think it's feasible to introduce a 1DMkIIN successor anytime soon...hell, it just came out last fall. I also think unless the price goes up a fair amount, it's gonna take one hell of a lot to squeeze much more than 8mp into 8.5fps. maybe 10? Don't know for sure. As for FF...don't count on it. If they did that, there'd be no market for the 1DsMkII or its successor (which, by the way, is far more likely to happen, in my opinion).

nation
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 13:17
The 1D is a specialised body targeted at pro photographers, each group of whom have their own specific needs - portrait/landscape guys need their pixels, sporters need their speed. Canon has to keep both camps happy and whether a IIN successor is in 6 months or 18 months I can't see how the decision of going FF will be the only factor in pulling away sales from the already low volume, highly specialised 1DS mark II - a camera which I might add given it's price, development era and comparisons to the 5D is showing its age (no disrespect to current owners :)).

But anyway, ignoring the marketing side of things for the time being (whether Canon will hold onto the 1.3x sensor has been discussed ad nauseum) has the IIN maxed out technology such that a FF, 8.5 FPS at 8.2MP (or even a slight bump up to 10MP) is the most that can be achieved cost effectively? Specifically I'm interested to know what it is about sensor technology that can't advance it further? Let's be logical here 8.5 FPS, 1.3x, 8.2 MP has been on the market for what, 30 months now :evil:.

Longwatcher
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 13:20
It is technically feasible that by fall 2006 Canon could have a 22MP, 8FPS camera.
So a 10MP 8.5FPS or a 12MP 8FPS would also be quite possible.
The catch is at the same price point by this fall. I would guess not likely on the price for two reasons.
One there would not be a significant demand to go from 8 and 1.3x to 10MP and FF as in a way there are two differing markets for those capabilities.
Second, Canon is expected to come out with the new flagship this fall and they will want the professional crowd to go for that one first at $7000-8000 so would from a marketing perspective not want a lower priced competing photojounalist model (albiet with lower capabilities) available at the same time.

Lastly it has not been a long enough period of time to upgrade the 1DM2N or the 5D yet. But the 1DsMkII is over due.

Just my opinion,

varanus
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 13:32
I keep hearing from people that sep/oct time is when the 1dmk2n will be upgraded not sure why somthing about a show at that time if i recall this is what stops me from when in july I have the cash getting the 1dmk2n dont want to blow that much cash and have it upgraded within a month or so!

I dont think they will go FF 10mp maybe, but think they will stick with the 1.3 for now the 1dsmk2 however ill be very surprised if we dont see a new one of them before the year is out

CyberDyneSystems
21st of May 2006 (Sun), 15:31
The next 1D will be while before it's out IMHO...

But I think it may very well be full frame, based on a Statement made by Canon soon after the release of the 1D MkII ... in which Canon laid out a roadmap that included continuing development of both Full Frame and APS-EFS "1.6X" sensors only.

The implication was clear and strong that the "1.3X" sensors would be phased out.

I believe the current MkII "N" is very likely to be the last 1.3X Camera Canon makes.

I hope I'm wrong.

nation
22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 00:27
Thanks for the comments guys. I guess like Longwatcher says, technologically it's feasible the only issue is whether Canon do it matching the IIN price point. That and it's fruitless to be talking about such upgrades without considering the product line up, sales and marketing side of things.

coreypolis
22nd of May 2006 (Mon), 00:42
don't factor in the IIN as a new model so much as an update. A 1ds/1d combo is very feasible to me, I just really hope there isn't a mode button you have to choose from as with the Nikons.

Dunnomuch
24th of May 2006 (Wed), 00:53
I would not be surprised if the 1DMarkIIN successor will have the 12.8MP sensor found in the 5D now, and 8.5-10fps with the 45pt focusing and all the bells and whistles of the 1-series body. This would be the "sports and photojournalist" model, and the 1DsMkII successor may be 22MP with maybe 4-5 fps and all the usual bells and whistles.

This way canon does not have to put all that much into R&D because the 1DMkIIN successor would use the 1Ds chassis and the 5D sensor. Focusing mechanism is borrowed from the 1Ds, buffer gets improved, and a faster full frame shutter is the only real R&D expense.

Then the real chunk of the R&D money goes to the new 22MP sensor.

Let's assume read/write speeds of memory increases with time. By the next iteration, it would be safe to say that buffering could be faster and deeper, so buffering is not an issue. Nikon has been taking advantage of Write Acceleration technology, so maybe Canon may have its own version soon.

Tee Why
26th of May 2006 (Fri), 17:45
I agree,
I think Canon eventually wants to merge the 1D line into one camera in the future, but I'm not sure when an economical 16+MP camera capable of 8fps can be made.
1D/pro lines are not replaced at the same rate as the amateur lines, if memory serves me right, so I don't expect the IIN to be replaces very soon.
If they can't merge the 1D lines by the next product cycle, I do think that the 1DMark III may have the 5D's FF sensor with the 8fps. Now that would really rock!!!

cosworth
26th of May 2006 (Fri), 18:25
I would not be surprised if the 1DMarkIIN successor will have the 12.8MP sensor found in the 5D now, and 8.5-10fps with the 45pt focusing and all the bells and whistles of the 1-series body. This would be the "sports and photojournalist" model...
.

If so, my 1Ds would be for sale. Quickly.

nation
27th of May 2006 (Sat), 02:01
I'm not familiar with how Canon has updated their range historically but have they come up with an "N" type model in the past? i.e. a model which has minimal upgrade over the predecessor and is assigned a model number indicating just that. The blood and guts of the IIN has been around for close to 2 1/2 years now and may very well have been a stop gap model.

Tee Why
27th of May 2006 (Sat), 02:05
yes, they have had N models in the past, I think it was for a film body though. I think the Mark II N is the first "N" for a dslr.

coreypolis
27th of May 2006 (Sat), 14:41
there was a eos 1 and eos 1n and then the eos 1nrs (pellicle mirror system)
elan 7, 7e, 7n, 7ne

ACDCROCKS
28th of May 2006 (Sun), 13:13
As a sports shooter, I wouldnt want a fullframe Mark. 8mp is enough for me, computer is slow enough haha. I dont want to spend more money to catch the computer up whenI could be buying a nice L :).

coreypolis
28th of May 2006 (Sun), 16:52
As a sports shooter, I wouldnt want a fullframe Mark. 8mp is enough for me, computer is slow enough haha. I dont want to spend more money to catch the computer up whenI could be buying a nice L :).

thats why I think the 1D2 will have incredible resale value.

ACDCROCKS
29th of May 2006 (Mon), 01:05
thats why I think the 1D2 will have incredible resale value.

Even at $3600, thats heck of a deal for a brand new body,with a large LCD, let alone FPS. I wish I had one, I surely need it for my career. The only thing I dont like about it is deleting the pics, pressign 2 buttons thing', but I can get useto that ;) haha

Mizaki
29th of May 2006 (Mon), 11:46
This MKII update issue is really bothering me. Really. As I appear to be leaning more and more to sports photography, I would certainly appreciate the 8.5 fps. In addition, as I prefer shallow DOF, I would certainly value 45-point AF - with shallow DOF the marginal for mistake is after all rather low. In addition, the crop factor is rather convenient for my purposes.

All in all, what I would probaply prefer, would be a "baby mark II" body, a 1.6 crop body with 45 AF-points, some 8 fps and other features like 1-series. Yes. Considering the everlasting rumors about 3D, that would just be the body for me, if the high ISO-noise would be comparable to 20D. I would certainly be willing to pay 5D money for such camera.

However, now I am just wondering. I would certainly not prefer FF for less fps. Never. Hope that Canon keeps the high fps vs. high resolution bodies still separate. For the moment, I will not be getting the Mark IIn, while this situation of uncertainity lasts. Just hope that Canon makes some delibarate moves in this class of cameras.

Trekkie
3rd of June 2006 (Sat), 16:12
or is going for 8.2 MP and 8.5 FPS and adding in FF a stretch?


In order to maintain at least the same pixel size stretching 8.2MP to FF would not work. I'm in 'weekend mode' so I'm not doing the math involved but if you're 8.2MP at an APS sensor to acheive the same density to 35mm size you'd have to increase MP by a certain amount.

I usually get a new digital body every two years or so, so I'm anxiously waiting to see what happens in the 5D space. I'm hoping that they'll make minor MkII style improvements but move the price range into the Mid US$2000 range w/o lens.

Then to find the money to get that and the new f/1.2L 85mm lens.

nation
3rd of June 2006 (Sat), 23:22
In order to maintain at least the same pixel size stretching 8.2MP to FF would not work. I'm in 'weekend mode' so I'm not doing the math involved but if you're 8.2MP at an APS sensor to acheive the same density to 35mm size you'd have to increase MP by a certain amount.



Do you think 10.6 MP at 8.5 FPS would be feasible? Or is it too simplistic to extrapolate an APS sensor to FF by a factor of 1.3 and maintain pixel size?

cubano100pct
4th of June 2006 (Sun), 04:25
It would make more sense for Canon to combine the 1D and 1Ds into one camera and give you 16.7MP FF shots in normal speed mode at 4 fps and then in high speed mode it can crop the FF by 1.3 for 9.4MP at 8.5 fps. By cropping the FF by 1.3 then it would only need to write 9.4MP to the buffer making it possible to achive the higher speed, since there is less data.

Nikon already does this with their D2Xs camera by taking their 12.4MP 1.5x CMOS sensor at 5 fps and cropping it further to 2X for 6.8MP at 8 fps. If Nikon made a FF sensor using the pixel density of the current D2X, it would be 27.5MP.

So I think Canon will come out with the 1Ds Mark III 22MP (1x) at 4fps, 16.9MP (1.3x) at 8.5 fps, and DIG!C III processor for under $5000 US.

Also with the 5D they can also do the same and have 2 speed modes, since currently they both have the same pixel density. so there will be a 5D Mark III 12.8MP (1x) at 4fps, 8.2MP (1.3x) at 8.5 fps, and DIG!C III processor for under $3000 US.

and both the 1Ds and 5D cameras have the following:
45 AF points
21-zone TTL full aperture metering
X-sync at 1/250 sec
Picture Styles
Multiple Exposure
Auto ISO Mode
Weather Sealed
USB 2.0
2.5in LCD
Live preview mode
WiFi built-in (Canon is currently doing it with their PowerShot SD430 and Digital IUX, why should I add an additional bulky piece to the bottom of my camera)

nation
4th of June 2006 (Sun), 07:13
If they did that I'll be cheering all the way to my local Canon dealer :)

Cubano you've got a point there. I was initially thinking there was a need for two distinct 1D bodies but in light of the 5D and cropped sensor technologies there's certainly a case for merging the two. If Nikon can pull off cropped sensors then Canon should be able to do the same. However, the difference is Nikon's starting and ending points - 12.2 MP at 5.3 FPs (1.5x sensor) and 6.9 MP at 8.0 FPs (2.0x sensor). Canon is now at 16.7 MP at 4.0 FPs (FF sensor) and 8.2 MP at 8.5 FPs (1.3x sensor). Whether Canon can improve on this (or want to from a marketing perspective) when coming up with their cropped sensor yet keep both types of users happy, we'll have to wait and see.

lakiluno
4th of June 2006 (Sun), 13:31
I would think whatever happens they will have a hig res crop, whether thats part of an even higher res FF sensor or not, as sports shooters will generally like using the crop.

current 1.6x pixel density means they could have a 12 megapixel sensor with out too much problem (I'd think), or a FF 20Mp sensor (5529.6x3686.4) with the same pixel densities.

Whatever Canon chooses, as long as its not EVF (with current technology anyway) I'll be happy :)

Nick C.
6th of June 2006 (Tue), 10:11
20 and 22 megapixel photos? No doubt the detail would be fantastic but my computer would have a coronary trying to handle them.
Surely we're reaching the practical limit of resolution in everyday SLRs (as opposed to the medium formats). I'd love to see a 39mp image but I'm not even certain I could open it in Photoshop - what are they, about 80-90MB in size?

Do you think that we'll see lithium ion batteries replace the NiMH ones in the 1D or is there a specific reason why they've stuck with the older technology?

The implication was clear and strong that the "1.3X" sensors would be phased out.

I believe the current MkII "N" is very likely to be the last 1.3X Camera Canon makes.

I hope I'm wrong.
Although it does seem to make sense, it would be a shame to lose the 1.3x crop. It just seems to be a good compromise in achieving wider focal lengths but still avoiding the worst of the degrading quality around the edges of the lens.

CyberDyneSystems
6th of June 2006 (Tue), 11:35
Indeed,. I love the 1.3X and am really married to it now.
I really don't want to give it up.

Still I will likely get the next 1D when it finally arrives..

As to the NIMH Vs. Lithium.. no idea when or if that will finally be replaced.. the weight savings would be nice. If Canon makes the switch to a removeable grip (i'd prefer that option) that's when the current beastly battery would go by the board.

My "reasonable" incremental upgrade 1D MkIII would be 12 or more MP.. 1.3X sensor, removeble grip (it would come with it though being the pro body) higher native ISO for less noise.. improved functonality of the "Personal Functions" settings so we aren't so tethered to the PC to adjust them..

In an unreasonable "dream" camera.. it would also have in body IS.. and double the current Dynamic range.

Nick C.
6th of June 2006 (Tue), 20:23
I think the 12mp (or more) sensor is a reasonable expectation (if not a certainty). Canon surely wouldn't release a new pro body until it can at least match the resolution of the 5D.

A removable grip would be pretty high on my wishlist too. It would no doubt add to the combined weight (although a switch to Li-on may offset that) but the option to separate it and travel lighter when needed would be very attractive. I don't know much about the internals of the camera but I would assume that having the grip built in has freed up space for circuitry and other bits and bobs.

nation
6th of June 2006 (Tue), 23:40
But how would a removable grip impact the renowned ruggedness of the 1D body? The 20D with a grip still feels like a toy compared to a 1D body. Would having a removable grip reduce the 1D to the feel of say a 20D when the grip's attached. I understand there was a film body that came with a removable grip. How did that feel with grip attached compared to the existing 1D?

Longwatcher
7th of June 2006 (Wed), 10:02
I have the EOS-3 with the power boost drive (AKA battery grip) and it feels pretty sturdy for the most part. In some respects (except it uses film) I like the control layout better then my 1DsMkII, but in answer to you question, the 1DsMkII feels a touch sturdier and solid then the EOS-3 with grip, but it is very minor and may be caused by the extra weight of the 1DsMkII over the EOS-3 with grip.

As comparison the D60 and 10D with grip felt very flimzy compared to even the EOS-3 with grip. Even without the grip they feel less well constructed as the EOS-3 with grip. From a couple of opportunities the 20D felt the same as the D60/10D, but better then 300D or 350XT. I have never had opportunity to hold 5D or 30D yet.
Oh almost forgot no difference between 1DsMkII and 1DM2 in terms of feel of the build.

ScottE
8th of June 2006 (Thu), 10:33
The rumor I heard is that the 1D and 1Ds will converge into a single top of the line full frame 22 mp model. It will have an improved 45 sensor AF system and be capable of a respectable fps at full frame. Higher speeds will be obtained by 1.3 and 1.6 crop options that will produce 12 and 8 mp images respectively. The 8 mp mode will be at a higher speed than any existing DSLR. Price will be higher than the current 1DMkIIN and lower than the 1DsMkII, probably somewhere around $5,000 USD.

Ideally a camera like this would have an electronic viewfinder, but I don't believe the technology to produce sufficient quality is there yet. Perhaps they will re-introduce the old pellicule (see through) mirror to enable a faster frames per second.

CyberDyneSystems
8th of June 2006 (Thu), 13:28
But how would a removable grip impact the renowned ruggedness of the 1D body?

This is a good point,. and clearly we would not want toi see a compromise here.

But they were able to do it with the Film EOS 1v ==> to Eos 1vHS with removeable grip.. no compromise there. Clearly the grip attachemtn and seal would have to be engineered better than those for the D30-30D.

CyberDyneSystems
8th of June 2006 (Thu), 13:30
The rumor I heard is that the 1D and 1Ds will converge into a single top of the line full frame 22 mp model. It will have an improved 45 sensor AF system and be capable of a respectable fps at full frame. Higher speeds will be obtained by 1.3 and 1.6 crop options that will produce 12 and 8 mp images respectively. The 8 mp mode will be at a higher speed than any existing DSLR. Price will be higher than the current 1DMkIIN and lower than the 1DsMkII, probably somewhere around $5,000 USD.


This is certainly a dream system.. but thus,. it sounds too good to be true! :shock:

I can't imagine Canon wanting to toss three models in the bin to be replaced by one.. but wow... it would be NICE!

Longwatcher
8th of June 2006 (Thu), 16:39
My only comment is if the next Canon camera doesn't do 16.7MP or more at 6 FPS or more (preferably 8FPS or more) then I am not buying it. I don't care if it has crop mode or not, I don't care if it has ISO 6400 or not. If I can't get a faster frame rate at 16.7MP (or more) then the 1DsMKII then I am not spending my money on it period - just not worth it to me.
And it needs to stay 35mm FF. Because of a hit to my income recently I may have to wait until January/Feb instead of October, but it won't matter if they don't meet my requirements.
And for a 16.7MP at 6FPS it better be a lot lower then the $7000 US I am saving towards.

And I like the 1DsMkII as is, but then I have fairly big hands.

Nick C.
9th of June 2006 (Fri), 01:58
Ideally a camera like this would have an electronic viewfinder, but I don't believe the technology to produce sufficient quality is there yet. Perhaps they will re-introduce the old pellicule (see through) mirror to enable a faster frames per second.
I can't imagine ever seeing an electronic viewfinder on a top end DSLR. I don't really see any advantage in having one. It seems that it would just add to extra production costs and therefore purchase price. Of course I don't know what the cost is in manufacturing these prisms and other viewfinder elements so it may well work out equal.
Plus, wouldn't your battery life suffer from having a constantly on, electronic display? And surely no LCD can match the quality and reliability of light and a good old optical prism.

ScottE
9th of June 2006 (Fri), 21:15
Currently no LCD display can match a an optical display, but LCD may not be a factor in the future since it relies on back lighting and crystals. What happens when a bioluminescent material is used that is not restricted by either backlighting or packing crystals on the display? This technology is not developed to the stage where it is likely to compete with an optical viewfinder in the near future. The advantage? The main one would be the lack of a flipping mirror would make faster shutter speeds, less noise and less vibration easier to design. Other possible features include the ability to show exposure before the shot, the ability to enhance lighting for low light focusing and composition, the ability to enlarge a portion of the image for critical focusng, the ability to add tilt and shift movements to the sensor and the ability to design a more compact camera that does not need a pentaprism stuck on top.

The mechanical movement and vibration cause by the mirror flipping up is one of the big limitations on frames per second, now that film advance is not a factor. With film cameras in the past Canon produced cameras that eliminated the mirror flip by using a semi-transparent mirror. Some of the light passed straight through the mirror and was recorded by the film when the shutter was released. Some of the light was reflected to the focusing screen. I believe this was only available on a limited number of EOS 1 film cameras. I wonder how many frames per second we could get if this feature was made available for digital cameras where moving the film is not a factor? How fast can the shutter cycle. The viewfinder is a little dimmer, but it is never black unless there is an eyepiece shutter to keep out stray light during exposure.

Longwatcher
9th of June 2006 (Fri), 21:56
The answer to EVF and frames per second is as many as the system and buffer can handle to record per second.
I have a Canon XL-2 which can do 60 FPS and has an EVF using an LCD to display what the sensor is seeing. Granted it is a little under 1MP frame size (3MP if using foveon counting), but both the EVF and the camera work real well.

I can see EVF on a DSLR or its equivilant at some point, probably in a manner similar to the XL-2's view finder. It has an LCD screen, but over that is a lensed viewfinder to make viewing the LCD easier, you can flip the viewfinder up to view just the LCD making it possible to view the LCD easily while on a tripod. However when shoulder mounted the viewfinder works much better in the down position.

If something similar were implemented for a DSLR class camera I would actually expect it to look more like the Hasselblad H2D then a traditional 35mm film camera we have to day.

Either with or without doesn't matter to me so much as long as however it is implemented it makes it as easy ot easier to use then what I have now. I like having a through the lens viewfinder, electronic or not.

Not expecting it this year though.

Just my opinion,

Nick C.
9th of June 2006 (Fri), 23:50
You make some good points Scott. Silly me :rolleyes: , completely overlooked the benefits that could arise from not needing a mirror in there. I particularly like the idea of enhancing lighting to help with focus and composition.

On the FPS issue though, how many shots do you really need in one second? I'm just a hobbyist at this photography game so I was just wondering what sort of application would require more than say 10 FPS?

If you go much faster than that wouldn't you effectively be looking at a high resolution video camera (as Longwatcher alludes to). I suppose the two could merge in the very distant future to form a single video/still camera with 20-odd megapixels and a framerate of 50FPS. Can you image the file sizes that thing would pump out? :shock:

Oh and what would they call these new cameras that render the mirror obsolete? It would mark the end of the term 'SLR' :(.

myself621
15th of June 2006 (Thu), 22:51
I wonder if anyone has tried to put a 5D sensor into a 1D mkIIn body? If you (somehow) knew what you were doing, and had a Phd in electrical engineering it might work. But this is most likely just a pipe dream and for sure it's not cost effective. Just a random thought.