Lowest Common Denominator: Prohibited Talk

[DwightMcCann]

Guidance for POTN threads preclude discussion of religion (well, this seems to depend on which religion is at issue, but not being religious myself I don't take sides as I am going to hell anyway) and politics. Politics seems to mean anything to do with government here. But now it seems that there are some people who are complaining about anything they don't want someone else to say. If someone mentions "fat" (I am pleasantly chunky) there is an uproar. If someone mentions "kimonos" there is upset. If someone (me) says that a Paris Hilton look alike looks retarded there are PMs and upset and indignation. Heck, even expressing a disklike of "shutter drag" in Performing Arts will get you a whomping. Been there, done that! :-)

In the case of Paris Hilton I tried to take the high road and simply ignore the upsetee but he couldn't let it go and accept that I am not politically correct and allow the natural forces of society to punish me for casting aspersions on Paris. So, a really good thread was closed down because I wouldn't edit my post to suit his personal requirements. He simply couldn't take personal responsibility for his need to control.

Anyway, there are certainly people who say things that I don't care for here and at least one is on my ignore list. And I will admit that I abhor "Hall Monitors" who are always trying to tell others what they should and shouldn't do or say or think and all their myriad reasons why they should be able to control others public faces. But if threads are going to be closed every time someone is offended and can't just go to another thread ... and particularly when someone "stalks" the people that offend them so that they can accost them, then what will happen next? What if, because my first marriage went bad, I object to any thread about a wedding. While you may laugh at this, I have seen threads self destruct because a single person in an image was obese ... not because some obese person felt demeaned, but because someone else thought that someone who was obese might somehow be offended. One of our moderators uses a wheelchair ... does that mean we can't say anyone "looks disabled" in a thread? This is a hell of a guy who does more by accident than I do on purpose and I expect he would rightfully challenge anyone who suggested he was disabled ... different-abled perhaps. But there are those who would be so worried on his behalf that they would want everyone else to "dance around" any discussion they felt touched on this sensitive area because he might be offended.

Where does it stop? At what point do we accept that some people just don't live their lives around worrying that someone might think that someone else might be offended? In a forum devoted to attaining image excellence do we allow "hurt feelings" to control what can be said about an image? I am a bleeding heart liberal (veteran) who has marched against racism and the Vietnam War and don't have much interest in controlling others, but I do want to be able to express myself as I see fit without having threads closed because someone else has a personal issue.

So, I am interested to know how others feel about this type of censorship. This is not at all directed at the moderators but rather at the "sensitive" among us who feel that their personal issues should control what others can say. Should I edit my replies if I offend anyone at any time about anything? Should moderators close threads because they offend someone? Mind you, I am not talking about Religion or Politics which are explicitly verboten, but about anything that someone else feels might upset someone!

[condyk]

If someone (me) says that a Paris Hilton look alike looks retarded there are PMs and upset and indignation.

Where does it stop? At what point do we accept that some people just don't live their lives around worrying that someone might think that someone else might be offended?

So, I am interested to know how others feel about this type of censorship.

Personally, I have found most of the Mods here sensitive and astute and with a good grasp of the big picture around what is 'reasonable' or 'harmless banter' and what is actually offensive or likely to cause discord within this community.

I would place use of terms like 'retarded' in the offensive category. I would also trust the Mods to do what they feel is right rather than feel I would want to make a fuss about it myself. If someone complains I am sure they reflect on the complaint rather than making a knee jerk response. I don't see such action as 'censorship'. I see it is being responsible and personally sensitive within a community of both significant similarity and significant difference.

I suppose there are ways of saying things in a more respectful manner, but you may see that as being forced to adapt your natural impulse or being controlled or censored. I don't myself feel that saying a young woman in a picture looks like a 'retard' is particularly useful criticism, or particularly a nice thing to say. I actually can't even think why someone would say that kind of thing.

I won't be saying anything else on this topic.

[JAZZ D.P.G.]

Wow, I've got to spend more time in other parts of this forum:confused: I seem to be missing all kinds of issues:confused:

Personally, I abhor any kind of censorship. At the same time, a certain amount of decorum is required to attend civilization in an acceptable manner.

There are ways to express views without being a total PC wimp, and not totally offend some segment of society. And at the same time, there is no pleasing some members of society.

Reading this back, I almost feel the picket of the fence jamming my backside:lol:

But I'll leap off the fence on behalf of free speach.

If you don't agree with an opinion, your free to express your own. But you are not free to control the medium of the messages. Nor are you free to harass another over their opinion. Different opinions are how societies move forward (or sometimes backwards), and those that want to control the message by controlling the medium are some of the worst offenders to freedom.

And I am not referring to the mods here.
I have found the mods here to err on the side of freedom, and not reacting to hype and hyperbole from some who would control the medium.

Unfortunately, the open world of ideas is, well, open. And some will use the anonimitity of the web to excercise their control demons. It is totally harmless to them, as they do not have to face their victim. Look up the term Troll regarding blogs, you will find an apt description of most of these types.

Polictical Correctness is the worst invention of civil controllers. It allows the screamer to say whatever they want without the "offender" being able to protect their stand without appearing heartless. I consider most PC controllers to be cowards.

Not withstanding the above paragraph, sensitivity is a requirement. Sensitivity is being able to give your opinion, tell the truth as you see it, without treading on, or offending, members of groups in society.

In your statement you mention obesity in photographs and not being able to publish these photos due to offending members of society. The picture is what the picture is.

I have usually enjoyed these forums, and have had several "active" communications. One where I PM'd a few mods to appologize for appearing to egg one vitriolic contributor on. This thread was never locked out and died the natural death of lack of interest and new items to work over.

As to Politics and Religion. There is more than enough of both in the real world. I come here to escape, and learn, and someday I'll consider myself enough of a photographer to contribute to comments regarding the actual art of painting with light.

This is the one forum I visit everyday, other than some blogs. I would hate to see it taken over by PC and overbearing posters.

And if you've posted something, or contributed to a thread, that a Mod found offensive, or found to be going in a direction not suitable for a family forum, then it wll and should be locked or deleted.

Keep posting and beat the Trolls. or there will be nothing much on this forum.

[Moppie]

Wow, I've got to spend more time in other parts of this forum:confused: I seem to be missing all kinds of issues:confused:




Ditto, Im just going to have to spend more time on POTN, damn :D :D



On a more serious note, I have to say I have never noticed any great amount of PC on this forum, infact as far as forums go I think its quite liberal.
The only one I know that is more liberal, with out desending into anarcy, is one I moderate, and have done so for long enough that Iv been able to influence the sort of comunitiy it has become.

I wouldn't get upset over the no religion and politics thing, its well proven way of keeping a forum running, they are unforunatly the two things garunteed to upset enough people to cause a problem.

The issue of being to PC is something different, at the end of the day a forum is about sharing ideas, and ideas are made of two things; opions and facts. Facts are easy, and boring, and make up maybe half of what this forum is about.
Opinions are subjective, they are hard to manage, but since they make up the other half of this forum they need the freedom to be expressed.
This will of course create problems, as not everyone agrees with everyone elses opinion.
This is why we have mods.
I have always been of the belief that Mods are there to ensure the facts are acurate, and opions are expressed freely.
That means ensuring someones opinion is expressed in a polite and civilised manner, with the understanding it may offend somebody.
And when somebody gets offended they need to let them know that its only an opinion, and everyone has the right to express thiers.
If the offended party can't handle that its thier problem, the mod can help them deal with it, or simply say "tough, its what this forum is all about".

Its only when a very large number of people become offended by an opinion, or when that opinion is not relevent to the topic at hand that action needs to be taken against its holder.


But, thats how I run a forum and this is not my forum, its Pekas, so he gets to run it his way.
And hes a far more experianced Man that I am, so I just have to trust him, and the judgement of his moderators.

[DwightMcCann]

Thanks, Jim! I would suggest that there is great diversity among the moderators with some being very quick to intercede and some being more patient that the superb quality of our members will rein in any "issues". But it was not with any moderators in mind that I put this question forward. I very much agree with your take on the PC controllers being bullies and using a kind of passive agression.

[Curtis N]

Let's talk about photography.
Let's remember that no one has a legal right to not be offended (at least in my country).
Let's remember that respectful people try to avoid being offensive.
Let's be forgiving enough to give people the benefit of the doubt when they inadvertently offend us.
Let's be big enough to apologize when we inadvertently offend someone, even if we think we have done nothing inherently offensive.

If someone posts something that you find offensive, don't respond publicly. Report it to the mods and let them deal with it.

... and one thing I remember from an earlier hulabaloo in the Glamour section ...
When describing the appearance of any model/subject of a photo posted here, choose your words as if that person is reading them. Because he/she just might be!

This is the friendliest internet forum I have ever been a part of. It takes effort on everyone's part to keep it that way.

[DwightMcCann]

Moppie, the problem is that the "PC Controller" effectively kills the thread by whining that his particular PC issue is being abused and rather than give the whiner a "timeout" the moderators simply lock the thread (or remove it), thereby punishing everyone who has invested in it.

As for being civilized, there have been many times that I have made a statement and had someone totally misconstrue it ... I say, "There are people who think magenta is ugly" and the other person responds, "Why are you accusing me of being ugly?" Just plain weird.

So, what's your take on folks who hijack threads? Is it civilized that because you shoot a particular way that every thread must contain some proselytizing sermon on why that way is better? I see this all the time with RAW shooters ... they just can't leave it alone! They always have some excuse such as "I'm just trying to share my vast knowledge" but they know if they start a thread, "RAW is the One True Way" that no one will give a hoot so they inject it everywhere else! I now put these folks in my ignore list because I am tired of hearing about it and don't want to feel the pull of the "dark side" to complain about them ... I simply don't see anything they have to say and it is a major relief. I've also heard folks say they won't visit the Lens Forum anymore because of this behavior! :cry:

It all reminds me of the "Thought Police!"

[Tom W]

Guidance for POTN threads preclude discussion of religion (well, this seems to depend on which religion is at issue, but not being religious myself I don't take sides as I am going to hell anyway) and politics. Politics seems to mean anything to do with government here. But now it seems that there are some people who are complaining about anything they don't want someone else to say. If someone mentions "fat" (I am pleasantly chunky) there is an uproar. If someone mentions "kimonos" there is upset. If someone (me) says that a Paris Hilton look alike looks retarded there are PMs and upset and indignation. Heck, even expressing a disklike of "shutter drag" in Performing Arts will get you a whomping. Been there, done that! :-)

There's good reason for religion and political discussions to be forbidden. Both can make for colorful discussions, but such discussions can make enemies of friends and any heated discussions on these two subjects severely detracts from the purpose of this forum. I've been in some pretty hot political discussions here, and I am really happy that they are forbidden. There are other places that cover those topics quite well.

In the case of Paris Hilton I tried to take the high road and simply ignore the upsetee but he couldn't let it go and accept that I am not politically correct and allow the natural forces of society to punish me for casting aspersions on Paris. So, a really good thread was closed down because I wouldn't edit my post to suit his personal requirements. He simply couldn't take personal responsibility for his need to control.

I'm not quite politically correct either. Issues involving Paris Hilton usually don't get a reply from me, despite the fact that my inhibition barrier would probably weaken in her presence. I could go on... ;)

Anyway, there are certainly people who say things that I don't care for here and at least one is on my ignore list. And I will admit that I abhor "Hall Monitors" who are always trying to tell others what they should and shouldn't do or say or think and all their myriad reasons why they should be able to control others public faces. But if threads are going to be closed every time someone is offended and can't just go to another thread ... and particularly when someone "stalks" the people that offend them so that they can accost them, then what will happen next? What if, because my first marriage went bad, I object to any thread about a wedding. While you may laugh at this, I have seen threads self destruct because a single person in an image was obese ... not because some obese person felt demeaned, but because someone else thought that someone who was obese might somehow be offended. One of our moderators uses a wheelchair ... does that mean we can't say anyone "looks disabled" in a thread? This is a hell of a guy who does more by accident than I do on purpose and I expect he would rightfully challenge anyone who suggested he was disabled ... different-abled perhaps. But there are those who would be so worried on his behalf that they would want everyone else to "dance around" any discussion they felt touched on this sensitive area because he might be offended.

I am decidedly not politically correct either, though I do follow the PC line 75% of the time. I've been known to PO people from time to time, and I've been PO'ed a time or two in return. I think that this is natural when people discuss things, even outside of politics and religion. Most people tend to gravitate towards some, and away from others. Human nature and all that.

I don't have an "ignore" list, though I will ignore posts from some members, at least temporarily. In fact, it's usually temporary except in rather extreme cases. Sooner or later, I often find that I misread the poster that originally got under my skin.

Where does it stop? At what point do we accept that some people just don't live their lives around worrying that someone might think that someone else might be offended? In a forum devoted to attaining image excellence do we allow "hurt feelings" to control what can be said about an image? I am a bleeding heart liberal (veteran) who has marched against racism and the Vietnam War and don't have much interest in controlling others, but I do want to be able to express myself as I see fit without having threads closed because someone else has a personal issue.

Good questions. I don't think many members here go out of their way to hurt feelings, though the result still occurs from time to time. I don't think it's something that anybody should worry about - being considerate is all that should be expected. People will cross each other from time to time, and I suspect that it's mostly unintentional. Members of this forum come from a variety of countries, backgrounds, and such - yes, the common language is English (of some sort), but the dialects, humors, and such are sometimes different.

Anyway, I don't see a problem with you, me, or anybody else expressing their opinion, at least within the context of the purpose of this forum. I can accept that a few feathers will get ruffled on occasion, but I often don't choose silence, even when it is prudent.

So, I am interested to know how others feel about this type of censorship. This is not at all directed at the moderators but rather at the "sensitive" among us who feel that their personal issues should control what others can say. Should I edit my replies if I offend anyone at any time about anything? Should moderators close threads because they offend someone? Mind you, I am not talking about Religion or Politics which are explicitly verboten, but about anything that someone else feels might upset someone!

I'm in favor of as clear a policy as possible - for example, no religious discussions and no political discussions are rather clear rules. I'm also in favor of not using abusive, derogative language or swearing (though I can embarass a drunken sailor on leave with the words I sometimes emit). With the consideration of offending those that are more "sensitive" than others, this is a gray area. I don't think clear rules can be written for this. What is humorous slang and banter in one region might be a bit less friendly in another (and I've been caught in this trap as well). I believe that each moderator has their own sense of what's offensive and what is not, just as different people have similar thought patterns depending on their upbringing. My thought is that as posters, if confronted with the choice of editing or not, we should carefully consider the context of the allegedly offensive post and make a personal decision on it.

If you wrote it and it says exactly what you want it to say, then don't edit it. On the other hand, if you could find a "friendlier" way of saying the same thing, it might be wise to make the change.

Neither you nor I nor most of the people on this forum are bent on ruffling the feathers of others. I think that the mods generally know this, and if there are posters that consistently and repeatedly anger others, they will be dealt with as they should be. I like the honesty here, and I certainly don't prefer the "free-for-all" situation that thrives in DPReview (and yes, I like going there from time to time, but here is much more like home).

[DwightMcCann]

Let's be big enough to apologize when we inadvertently offend someone, even if we think we have done nothing inherently offensive.


Eh? "Big Enough"? That's offensive!

[Tom W]

... and one thing I remember from an earlier hulabaloo in the Glamour section ...
When describing the appearance of any model/subject of a photo posted here, choose your words as if that person is reading them. Because he/she just might be!


That is good advice, and I remember a specific situation where one of the models was reading the commentary. The photographer was rightfully PO'ed at some of the comments in that particular situation.

[kona77]

Being a member with less than 4000 posts, which seems to be some magic number that allows a member to say anything without reproach, ie Dwight's quote, the term used is very derogatory. I, along with another poster, have an issue with the term. We participate and are open to critism concerning our pictures or any comments we make. I do not go out of my way to try and be offended. It was a simple POLITE PRIVATE request to substitute a word.

Then I was labled an "Idiot" on another thread by Dwight because of my PM to him.

Since I have posted pictures of my son on this forum I think a simple PRIVATE request to the poster that the term "Retarded" not be used as a description of someone else in a negative manner was appropriate.

The thread's purpose is photography. If it was a non-photographic topic I could see my point of view having less of a foundation.

Simple consideration, that was all that I asked.

But if the poster's vocabulary is limited to "Retarded and Idiot" I should probably just look at the source and move on.

Free speech does not mean you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.

[Curtis N]

Eh? "Big Enough"? That's offensive!I apologize.Free speech does not mean you can yell fire in a crowded theatre.That's an irrelevant comparison. We aren't talking about rights. We're talking about being respectful of other people's sensibilities, and tolerant of those who aren't as respectful as we would want. There has to be room for some flexibility on both sides for civil discourse to exist.

[defordphoto]

To set the record straight, the thread that is being referred to is: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=154073

I closed that thread. We (POTN Staff) had been discussing it most of the day. We watched the political references and saw how the posters caught themselves and went on a different direction. Then the thread went sideways again. It was waaaaay off-topic and at that point it was decided that the thread had outlived itself and was going nowhere but south.

Our closing the thread had ZERO to do with the retarded reference as it was not used in a derogatory sense. It was not slamming retarded people. It was being used in the same thought pattern as "having a blonde moment." You will notice that the retarded statement was not deleted. Had it been used to degrade retarded (mentally disabled) people it would have been shut down, the thread moved into storage and the offended severely reprimanded.

However, calling someone an idiot is a flame and is unacceptable. If you directly call someone retarded, same result.

Remember, we are just people here trying to do the best job we can to keep the forum in the direction of photography. The rules state that right up front. Plain and simple.

We operate as a group with individuals rarely making lone decisions and this one was no different.

Also remember that a forum is NOT a democracy no matter where you live. You have no rights here or freedoms of speech. Pekka owns this forum. He sets the rules and that is what we, as his staff, operate day-today by.

A forum is like TV in the case if you don't like the subject matter, or the rules, then don't logon.

Our staff consists of a very wide diversity of people from all over the Planet Earth and I truly feel that our staff is one of the best on the Internet.

We try to be fair, but as we all know, someone, somewhere will be offended by our decisions and that's okay. We know that everytime we make these decisions.

Anyway, I am not here to beat a dead horse or get into any kind of discussion about what we do or why we do it. I just wanted to set the record straight regarding the thread that was closed and why it was closed.

Play nice now! :)

[DwightMcCann]

Then I was labled an "Idiot" on another thread by Dwight because of my PM to him.
It is just this kind of purposely blaming misstatement that makes your kind of PC Control so offensive! You were never labelled by me because there was never any reference to you by name and you weren't even a poster in that thread. You were totally anonymous until you couldn't take it that you weren't getting your way. But to gain pity you have again found me posting for the third time and are again trying to control the content. I guess this thread too will be closed down if it doesn't suit your sensibilities. And I now add you to my ignore list, sheesh!

[defordphoto]

Repeat...

Play nice now! :)

[cosworth]

Ok, this is something that has chapped my hide for long enough and I'm gonna air it out.


Literally:
re·tard·ed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-tärdd)
adj.
Often Offensive. Affected with mental retardation.
Occurring or developing later than desired or expected; delayed.

Main Entry: re·tard·ed
Pronunciation: ri-'tärd-&d
Function: adjective
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development : characterized by mental retardation

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

retarded
adj : relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical development; "providing a secure and sometimes happy life for the retarded" [ant: precocious]

Paris Hilton's public behaviour constitutes displays of slow mental or emotional development. I'm sure most can agree on this. We leave this as it is. Next.

The word retarded has become the battle cry for the astute political correctness watchdog. It is not nigger. It is not chink. It is not spic. It is not "****in' retard". Common use English has allowed this word to become slang not slur. Get it?

Why do I see English and the supposed slur against metally challenged people this way? I was a teacher for many years who taught these very children the PC Police hope to protect. I always was a champion for them and for the language we speak.

The young lady who works right next to me at work (consider her my secretary) shares my same views. She gets infuriated with the PC police taking ownership of the retarded moniker. She has just cause as she has two foster brothers who are "retarded". One has severe Down's Syndrome and another (who passed away Sunday) had severe F.A.S. We recently had this discussion togther with some from the office when the "R" word was said in front of her. She laughed and explained to the others in the office her opinion.

So drop it people. It's slang not slur. Grow up.

[OdiN1701]

Well I for one am not PC. I'm a straight shooter who tells things how I see them and I don't really care what others think about it.

It's not that I don't care about other people, but that I feel that I should be able to express myself.

The problem is that you just can't have this on message boards and internet forums...because there are too many people out there that take things way too seriously. I have seen it many times on many different forums.

So yeah maybe I would say Paris Hilton is a complete retard. So what? Why is that so offensive?

Why is the word "retarded" offensive? Because someone invented the words "dvelopmentally disabled"? Why are "bad" words "bad"? Only because we assign a bad meaning to them.

I am probably one of the few people that are like this...but I really don't take much seriously online...if I find something someone posted to be offensive...well I just don't care and I don't let it bother me.

The thing is - online we don't know how the other person is. You could be talking to a really nice sounding person who is really a Neo-Na zi, or the guy that may post one comment that you don't agree with and thing is wrong and start to despise the person for it....they may be the nicest person in the world. You can take things out of context, and without knowing the personality of the other person you can't really discern how something is meant over the net.

Words can have meaning and carry emotion, but only when we actually will sit and think about writing in that manner - authors are better at it than most. If we are just casually responding to something on an internet forum, we aren't likely to do something like that.

In the end, it's hard for us to really read into other peoples thoughts. Things online are often taken too seriously.

Relax. If you don't like what someone has said - ignore it. Sure...some things are OBVIOUSLY not okay to say...just report it to the moderator and they will ultimately decide what to do.

After all, the site belongs to the moderator/admin/whatever....it's up to them to decide how to run it. What they say goes, whether you like it or not. I'm sure it's all in the agreement you agreed to when you signed up.

[kona77]

LOL, oh now your offended and we must all heed.
Again, if "Retard and Idiot" are a reflection of your best vocabulary skills I will consider the source.

If I or my comments are referenced why shouldn't I be allowed to post?? I guess you are the only one in your mind that can post anywhere.

As far as PC is concerned. Just because PC talk overlaps common sense and decency 5% of the time does not mean PC is correct.

You can go on now, I have dismissed you.

[defordphoto]

Be aware that if the same argument continues that was in the deleted thread, this thread will also be deleted and dealt with by the POTN staff.

I suggest both Kona and Dwight to stand back from their keyboards. Go shoot some photos or something other than fighting in here over semantics please.

[wiselion]

Well I must comment here.
I have to say that I did see Paris Hilton in her X-rated video performance today. (Yes, it does take me awhile to get around to these things.) I must say though (and I am not siding with anyone in paticular here) but she was less advanced then some of the other young actresses on the CD.;) ;) :D

[DwightMcCann]

This week is National Mental Health Care week.

You can do your part by remembering to contact at least one unstable person
to show you care.
Well, my job is done!
_____

An elderly Chinese woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a
pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in
it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion
of water.
At the end of the long walk from the stream to the house, the
cracked pot arrived only half full. For two years this went on daily, with
the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water. Of course, the
perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was
ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it could only do half
of what it had been created to do.
After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke
to the woman one day by the stream. "I am ashamed of myself, because this
crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house.
" The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your
side of the path, but not on the other pot's side? That's because I have
always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the
path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I
have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table.
Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to
grace my home."
Each of us has our own unique flaws. But it is the cracks and
flaws we each have that make our lives together so very interesting and
rewarding. You've just got to take each person for what they are and look
for the good in them.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a great day and remember
to notice the flowers on your side of the path.

[Steve Parr]

In the realm of the public forum, censorship sucks.

However, we're not in the "public" realm, in that there's someone, somewhere, who puts out probably not a small amount of money to provide this forum for us.

With respect to that, whoever that "someone" is gets to write the rules. As members (and not owners) here, we have a very simple choice to make: we abide by those rules, or we do not. If we abide by them, live is just peachy. If we opt to not abide by them, and run afoul of the moderating team, we are surely not long for this world.

I've been a member here for a little over a year. In that time, I've been banned twice: once for a month, and once for a week. In both instances, it was because I allowed myself to partake in discussions which, in all honestly, were only going to degrade; both were, to some degree, politically charged. I have some real strong opinions about a lot of things and, not being what would be considered a shy guy, I tend to voice those opinions when they're challenged. Twice now, I've found that's not the way to go.

Any time you put this number of people in the same place, you're going to end up pissing someone off, regardless of what you say. It's to be expected. To what level someone gets pissed off may be the only thing you can control.

Nobody likes to see what they have to say quelled. I know I hate it. If it were to happen if I was speaking my piece in a city park, then I would be a very real issue with that. Here, however, someone gets to decide what constitutes "enough", and the majority of the people here are not that guy.

It's probably only a matter of time before I get banned again (does this place have a "three strikes" law? :lol: ), simply because I tend to not be able to drop a subject. Like a lot of people, I want to have the last word. It'll be a red-letter day when I decide to just shut the Hell up and let go of an arument, but I certainly try.

The bottom line is this: Everyone has an opinion, and they usually don't end up in alignment with all of the others. I think if we entered into discussion with that in mind, before we type a single word, things would go more smoothly...

[defordphoto]

Well said Steve, but what people forget time, and time and time and time again is that this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum, not an open forum. If a member wants to yak about politics, religion or whatever else, go somewhere else. Yes, we do quite a bit of leeway, especially in the General Forum, but religion and politics are specifically banned in the rules.

Why?

Check the history of this planet and you'll know.

[wiselion]

To set the record straight, the thread that is being referred to is: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=154073

I closed that thread. We (POTN Staff) had been discussing it most of the day. We watched the political references and saw how the posters caught themselves and went on a different direction. Then the thread went sideways again. It was waaaaay off-topic and at that point it was decided that the thread had outlived itself and was going nowhere but south.

Our closing the thread had ZERO to do with the retarded reference as it was not used in a derogatory sense. It was not slamming retarded people. It was being used in the same thought pattern as "having a blonde moment." You will notice that the retarded statement was not deleted. Had it been used to degrade retarded (mentally disabled) people it would have been shut down, the thread moved into storage and the offended severely reprimanded.

However, calling someone an idiot is a flame and is unacceptable. If you directly call someone retarded, same result.

Remember, we are just people here trying to do the best job we can to keep the forum in the direction of photography. The rules state that right up front. Plain and simple.

We operate as a group with individuals rarely making lone decisions and this one was no different.

Also remember that a forum is NOT a democracy no matter where you live. You have no rights here or freedoms of speech. Pekka owns this forum. He sets the rules and that is what we, as his staff, operate day-today by.

A forum is like TV in the case if you don't like the subject matter, or the rules, then don't logon.

Our staff consists of a very wide diversity of people from all over the Planet Earth and I truly feel that our staff is one of the best on the Internet.

We try to be fair, but as we all know, someone, somewhere will be offended by our decisions and that's okay. We know that everytime we make these decisions.

Anyway, I am not here to beat a dead horse or get into any kind of discussion about what we do or why we do it. I just wanted to set the record straight regarding the thread that was closed and why it was closed.

Play nice now! :)


Very well Said. I have also learned (when I am not being a comedian) is to keep on the forum topic, which in this case is Photography........

[Steve Parr]

Well said Steve, but what people forget time, and time and time and time again is that this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum, not an open forum.

Hey, I resemble that remark...

[defordphoto]

Hey, I resemble that remark...

We all do from time to time...;)

[JaertX]

I, for one, am glad that one or two of my posts have been deleted! :oops:

Anyway, since there was a little mention of being offended by the word "retarded" I just thought I would set the record straight and give anyone permission to call me a retard based on the content of some of my posts...heh heh.

And you can also call me arrogant, short, fat, and, um, quickly graying.

However, don't call me a liberal! ack...(I can't believe you admitted to that in public Dwight!)

Oh, and really, all the moderators on here have been awesome as far as censorship and dealing with people goes, except for one. Anyway. :lol:

[wiselion]

This week is National Mental Health Care week.

You can do your part by remembering to contact at least one unstable person
to show you care.
Well, my job is done!
_____

An elderly Chinese woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a
pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in
it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion
of water.
At the end of the long walk from the stream to the house, the
cracked pot arrived only half full. For two years this went on daily, with
the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water. Of course, the
perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was
ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it could only do half
of what it had been created to do.
After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke
to the woman one day by the stream. "I am ashamed of myself, because this
crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house.
" The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your
side of the path, but not on the other pot's side? That's because I have
always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the
path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I
have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table.
Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to
grace my home."
Each of us has our own unique flaws. But it is the cracks and
flaws we each have that make our lives together so very interesting and
rewarding. You've just got to take each person for what they are and look
for the good in them.
To all of my crackpot friends, have a great day and remember
to notice the flowers on your side of the path.


So true, so true.........

[Ballen Photo]

Steve, Thanks for your input and experience in this matter. ;)
We operate as a group with individuals rarely making lone decisions and this one was no different.Like Jim said, we work as a unit, and usually behind the scene without being seen.
Our number 1 goal is to make this a pleasant experience for EVERYONE, regardless of post count.
This subject has been discussed at very great lengths now, and we would like to see this ironed out.
JMHO, Calling someone an idiot on the same forum they hang out on, and using words that insure the party being talked about knows its about them is not very smart in my book. (Notice I didn't actually mention any names here?)
About being PC. I'm afraid we cant remove the word "Retard" from the English language, and it WILL inevitably be used from time to time. Anyone caught using the word in a demeaning way however, WILL be dealt with accordingly.
Now as Jim said; Lets play nice.
-Bruce

[DwightMcCann]

OK, but now I've got to add Bruce and Jim to my ignore list! Hey, what's the maximum size ignore list?

[Ballen Photo]

I dunno Dwight, But at this rate, you'll be the first to find out. :p
-Bruce

[DwightMcCann]

I dunno Dwight, But at this rate, you'll be the first to find out. :p
-Bruce
But think how nice and quiet it will be ( ... starts drooling and looks like Homer Simpson thinking about beer! ...) Belmondo, Skip and Pekka are already on it! Mo', of course, is immune!

[Jamey S.]

I don't see alot of it here, but then again, I don't read every thread here either. I do agree with your overall statements though Dwight. It can be seen on most forums on the Internet :( Seems some take it as a "game" and think it is funny to get threads closed/locked for whatever childish reason. I won't even pretend to understand. I am by definition physically disabled and I don't take offense to that word, crippled, etc. when used in a post. I believe there isn't much to any word or name, if you understand what I mean, used in a normal post or the such, it is when they are used directed towards a specific person as an insult or flame that they become wrong. Otherwise, if something offends you don't read it or skip over it, but responding and starting an argument over a name, phrase, or word is just stupid and childish IMHO. Locking a thread is not the answer either, that just punishes the OP and the other participants. The troublemaker should be warned and then temp. or perm. banned IMHO. Punish the violators not the innocents. ;)

I do have to add though that these forums here are much more civil and down to earth then many others out there though.

[Ballen Photo]

Mo', of course, is immune!But of course. :cool:


Hi Jamey, Actually, We try our best to not have to lock threads, and problems are discussed amongst ourselves to try and find the best solution to the problem. Regrettably, sometimes locking a thread is our only option. :(
-Bruce

[Steve Parr]

I dunno Dwight, But at this rate, you'll be the first to find out. :p
-Bruce

:shock:

[DwightMcCann]

:shock:

Forget it, Parr, you are on my permanent BUDDY LIST! You will notice that even when you are banned I keep after you!!! You are my role model.:rolleyes: Oh, wait, no, I just forgot to take my meds, sigh.

[Reeforbust]

WOW.......:confused:

All this because I....YES I used the word "retarded" AS a SLANG pertaining to the way someone was posing.
I have a cousin that was left mentally handicapped from a terrible car wreck. I would gander to say that most family's have someone that is challenged in some capacity. This world is filled with every type of person you can imagine, And then some, black, white, red, yellow, handicapped, retarded, missing limbs, blind as a bat like me, fat, skinny, ugly........and then there are the girls that stick their neck out when they pose, but we won't go there right now.;)

I honestly think that having someone close to you with problems like this causes you to be a little over protective.......trying to "fight" for their honor?!
I also think that it's a subliminal thing......You don't wake up everyday saying "I wonder who will use the phrase Retarded today" but deep inside you just want to protect them from the harsh world, very understandable and agreeable. I just wish that when you read something, you pay attention to how it is used and not just that the word "offends" you...:confused:


From the urban dictionary

"Retarded"
A slang descriptor for a person/thing/action/object, etc., or combination of..

i.e. Those clothes look retarded!

Is that offensive? And if it is, then you need to visit the mall more often, cause honey, fashion today is KaaaaRazy!!:lol:

[Reeforbust]

I don't myself feel that saying a young woman in a picture looks like a 'retard' is particularly useful criticism, or particularly a nice thing to say. I actually can't even think why someone would say that kind of thing.

I won't be saying anything else on this topic.


I did not say looked like a retard.

I said the way she stuck her neck out looked, for lack of better words, retarded.

[Citizensmith]

I think I need to work harder to get up to Dwight and Steve's standards. I only ever seem to annoy Mac users, which isn't exactly hard work, and nobody ever PM'd me to say I'd been mean and made them cry.

So are we allowed to say the Lakers suck the hind teat and I hope they will continue to do so?

[Moppie]

Wow, this thread grew real big, real fast!





So, what's your take on folks who hijack threads?

I don't like them, and there are ways of dealing with them.
They are an unforuate part of any forum though, and after page 2 I never expect a forum to stay totaly on topic, and its not uncommon to have 2 different but related discussions going on. Its what the quote feature is for.

In cases where its really bad, and its an important thread the mods have the ablity to selectivly remove posts in a variety of ways.
In most threads however it is more effective to close the thread, especialy if it is well aged and the parties are showing a lot of hostility towards each other.
I havn't seen the thread, but it sounds like I would have done exactly what has been done.



Im never a big fan of these sorts of discussions in open forums (this is hypicrocy I know), because it is impossible for the general forum membership to have any idea what the mods are upto.
VB is set up in such a way that they are able to operate with total secracy.
The fact that as a member, I see so little of what I know goes on as a Mod, means I know the Mods here are doing their jobs extremely well.
They leave such a small foot print its easy to forget they are here at all.



At the end of the day I simply wouldn't worry about how the mods conduct thier bussiness, they might close the odd thread, or do the odd small thing you disagree with, but often its for reasons you don't, and never will know about. You simply have to trust them, and since Peka trusts them with a fair amount of power, then assume they are trustworthy people.
Of course, if you ever had a major problem, and it does happen, mods do go "rouge", then Peka is only an email or a PM away. But when a mod goes over the edge you know about it.

[Ballen Photo]

Wow, this thread grew real big, real fast!It's amazing what can happen when select words are planted, then watered well. ;)
-Bruce

[saravrose]

Well said Steve, but what people forget time, and time and time and time again is that this is a PHOTOGRAPHY forum, not an open forum. If a member wants to yak about politics, religion or whatever else, go somewhere else. Yes, we do quite a bit of leeway, especially in the General Forum, but religion and politics are specifically banned in the rules.

Why?

Check the history of this planet and you'll know.

that is pretty clear.. I'm here for photography. so I have no problem with this..hey if I want to talk religion all I have to do is call my dad and tell him I still haven't changed my mind over the whole catholic thing.. If I want to talk politics all I got to do is tell my uncles that someday before i'm dead I would like a woman to be elected president... but, on here I want to discuss composition, DOF, white balance and how much joy you get from photography so the rules suit me very well....:D :D .. not quite sure why it's such a big issue. misunderstandings happen. especially considering this is a worldwide forum.. Heck I went to California had somebody call me Madam, thought they called me a hooker and I threw a fit worthy of a three year old... so, if your interacting through written words crossing over cultures and languages with one common subject.. photography. I think it is incredibly smart and prudent to keep the subject matter to photography...

sari

[JCR]

Hey kona77, Hi
Just wanted to say I respect you for your dedication to your child, I'm sure it's a lot of work and emotionally draining at times bringing up a child with special needs, as it must also be rewarding.
I can understand why you would become offended by use of said word, I would likely get my shirt off if my situation was the same, however I think maybe we would both be a little guilty of being oversensitive to the subject on reflection.
I am pretty sure no direct insult was intended to you or your family from reading through the thread. I have a habit of offending people myself with my humour, It's very rare I am malicious usually just a joke gone awry or a misconstrued statement.

Anyway just wanted to say I do understand, but maybe it would help you to look deeper within yourself, not to your child, as to why this particular term offends you so much.

Mr Mcann
I have turned a room into a free for all bottles and poolsticks event with my humour in past more than once, I think you and I are similar in some ways also ;)

Live and let live guys, for the alternative surely is mass destruction.

[Steve Parr]

I think I need to work harder to get up to Dwight and Steve's standards.

Oh, don't live up to mine. After all, it was my standards which have resulted in me getting banned for a total of five weeks thus far...

So are we allowed to say the Lakers suck the hind teat and I hope they will continue to do so?

But such a statement would be true, so I don't know that there would be a problem with it...

:lol:

[Sean-Mcr]

Simple really, walk up to a girl or boy in the street, say hey i think you look amazing. May i take your shot?

Do the same again, but this time say hey you look retarded, may i take your shot?

You'll find out in about 3 seconds if it is offensive or not. You'll have a hard time explaining it's just slang with no teeth

As for saying someone looks retarded, well to me that says there's something wrong with being retarded.

[Pekka]

Guidance for POTN threads preclude discussion of religion (well, this seems to depend on which religion is at issue, but not being religious myself I don't take sides as I am going to hell anyway) and politics. Politics seems to mean anything to do with government here. But now it seems that there are some people who are complaining about anything they don't want someone else to say. If someone mentions "fat" (I am pleasantly chunky) there is an uproar. If someone mentions "kimonos" there is upset. If someone (me) says that a Paris Hilton look alike looks retarded there are PMs and upset and indignation. Heck, even expressing a disklike of "shutter drag" in Performing Arts will get you a whomping. Been there, done that! :-)

In the case of Paris Hilton I tried to take the high road and simply ignore the upsetee but he couldn't let it go and accept that I am not politically correct and allow the natural forces of society to punish me for casting aspersions on Paris. So, a really good thread was closed down because I wouldn't edit my post to suit his personal requirements. He simply couldn't take personal responsibility for his need to control.

Anyway, there are certainly people who say things that I don't care for here and at least one is on my ignore list. And I will admit that I abhor "Hall Monitors" who are always trying to tell others what they should and shouldn't do or say or think and all their myriad reasons why they should be able to control others public faces. But if threads are going to be closed every time someone is offended and can't just go to another thread ... and particularly when someone "stalks" the people that offend them so that they can accost them, then what will happen next? What if, because my first marriage went bad, I object to any thread about a wedding. While you may laugh at this, I have seen threads self destruct because a single person in an image was obese ... not because some obese person felt demeaned, but because someone else thought that someone who was obese might somehow be offended. One of our moderators uses a wheelchair ... does that mean we can't say anyone "looks disabled" in a thread? This is a hell of a guy who does more by accident than I do on purpose and I expect he would rightfully challenge anyone who suggested he was disabled ... different-abled perhaps. But there are those who would be so worried on his behalf that they would want everyone else to "dance around" any discussion they felt touched on this sensitive area because he might be offended.

Where does it stop? At what point do we accept that some people just don't live their lives around worrying that someone might think that someone else might be offended? In a forum devoted to attaining image excellence do we allow "hurt feelings" to control what can be said about an image? I am a bleeding heart liberal (veteran) who has marched against racism and the Vietnam War and don't have much interest in controlling others, but I do want to be able to express myself as I see fit without having threads closed because someone else has a personal issue.

So, I am interested to know how others feel about this type of censorship. This is not at all directed at the moderators but rather at the "sensitive" among us who feel that their personal issues should control what others can say. Should I edit my replies if I offend anyone at any time about anything? Should moderators close threads because they offend someone? Mind you, I am not talking about Religion or Politics which are explicitly verboten, but about anything that someone else feels might upset someone!

When you write a post or a reply it is very wise to keep in mind that

- people do not see your emotions
- people do not hear your intonation
- people do not see your bodily expression
- people do not know how you feel
- people do not know who and how you are in person.

This means: you must write in same way you would talk to a stranger in a marketplace through a speech simulation device played through a speaker, without being seen. What do we have left? Words and sentences. Smileys.

Now, you are upset because some people interpret your words in a manner you did not mean. You want that what you write would not to be read literally. I can say with 100% certainty: this is not possible. The only way to control your readers reactions is by placing right words in right order. You must try to express yourself in such a manner that audience from any cultural background would get your meaning. Use smilies. If conflicts happen because of semantics or cultural misunderstanging, all you have to do is to say "Looks like you got me wrong, what I meant was...", just like if you were talking face to face in real life.

Also, it seems to be forgotten often that this forum is
a) a photography forum
b) international forum

A means that we have placed some rules to avoid loosing the subject to e.g. politics and religion, so that moderators have tools to prevent flamewars, spamming and aggressive/destructive behaviour and generally improve user-experience of using the forums.

B means that there are people here from all nationalities, religions and ethnic heritage. Not all speak english fluently and distinguish subtle variations of "retarted". Be prepared for...

You: "Cool photo"
a Finn: "?? WB looks fine to me. Maybe your monitor is not adjusted correctly"

...type of conversations - it's easy to just correct the meaning and move on.

B also means that posts and photos are viewed though a "cultural differences"-filter, "young/old-polarizer" filter, "I feel fat"-filter and "you name it"-filter. It is possible to form your posts in a way that no one is attacked, insulted or dissed. All it takes is a little bit of consideration and thought.

[Jon, The Elder]

Hey folks - Every garden has weeds. Some are mowed down, some pulled, and some just wither away if you don't water them.

Reckon this thread has been watered enough?

Jon F.

[cosworth]

That's a bad analogy, but it does point to one thing that we never consider - Borders.

You are from Manchester. Words you use and words I use OFFLINE are quite different. Applying your local interpretation of what is slang and what is offensive can't really be fair.

However, it is apparent that the nuances of English are a bit lost on some. Yes, it does imply that "retarded" is negative. But why do you attach the word retarded to handicapped people? Sit and think of it for a bit. If it offends you, you are validating it's use in describing handicapped people. Shake the stigma of it being "bad" and the word has no teeth.

Retarded had many meanings before being EXCLUSIVE to handicapped people. Drop the attachment and you'll live a freer life.

[Reeforbust]

Hey folks - Every garden has weeds. Some are mowed down, some pulled, and some just wither away if you don't water them.

Reckon this thread has been watered enough?

Jon F.


AMEN!!!!! It's been rainin cats and dogs in here!!:lol:

[Reeforbust]

That's a bad analogy, but it does point to one thing that we never consider - Borders.

You are from Manchester. Words you use and words I use OFFLINE are quite different. Applying your local interpretation of what is slang and what is offensive can't really be fair.

However, it is apparent that the nuances of English are a bit lost on some. Yes, it does imply that "retarded" is negative. But why do you attach the word retarded to handicapped people? Sit and think of it for a bit. If it offends you, you are validating it's use in describing handicapped people. Shake the stigma of it being "bad" and the word has no teeth.

Retarded had many meanings before being EXCLUSIVE to handicapped people. Drop the attachment and you'll live a freer life.

:D
Can't we all just get along?!;)

[cosworth]

Oh I'm sure we can. People's differing opinions don't usually bother me. I just try to show people the middle ground. I most likely suck at it!

I found no offense in either view and I think we can all learn to be more tolerant of people differences. We can all avoid being a little socially retarded if we stop and think before typing.

[Choderboy]

Oh I'm sure we can. People's differing opinions don't usually bother me. I just try to show people the middle ground. I most likely suck at it!

I found no offense in either view and I think we can all learn to be more tolerant of people differences. We can all avoid being a little socially retarded if we stop and think before typing.

LOL. There is that word again.
Had to agree with your earlier post - referring to a dictionary is always usefull as so many words are misused / misunderstood.

[cosworth]

Used properly and taken in it's intended context, the word is harmless.

[Citizensmith]

Used properly and taken in it's intended context, the word is harmless.

Updating myself on this thread has retarded my reading of the actual photography related posts.

[kona77]

Used properly and taken in it's intended context, the word is harmless.
Not if your know someone who is mentally handicapped. The word was used to denograte another person based upon someone elses condition who can do nothing about it. These wonderful people do not need to be used as a measuring stick or scale to describe another person, etc.

[kona77]

Simple really, walk up to a girl or boy in the street, say hey i think you look amazing. May i take your shot?

Do the same again, but this time say hey you look retarded, may i take your shot?

You'll find out in about 3 seconds if it is offensive or not. You'll have a hard time explaining it's just slang with no teeth

As for saying someone looks retarded, well to me that says there's something wrong with being retarded.
That is an excellent point. Thank you.

[kona77]

This is the last time I will post on this matter. I simply asked for some consideration through a PM. That was not to be. So you can get a flavor of what many of us as parents go through I am going to post a short story. If you are really sincere you will take just a minute of uninterrupted time and read.

Thank you for your consideration. I hope you can put yourself in my shoes for a moment.



Welcome To Holland
by Emily Perl Kingsley


I am often asked to describe the experience of raising a child with disability - to try to help people who have not shared that unique experience to understand it, to imagine how it would feel. It's like this......
When you're going to have a baby, it's like planning a fabulous vacation trip - to Italy. You buy a bunch of guide books and make your wonderful plans. The Coliseum. The Michelangelo David. The gondolas in Venice. You may learn some handy phrases in Italian. It's all very exciting.
After months of eager anticipation, the day finally arrives. You pack your bags and off you go. Several hours later, the plane lands. The stewardess comes in and says, "Welcome to Holland."
"Holland?!?" you say. "What do you mean Holland?? I signed up for Italy! I'm supposed to be in Italy. All my life I've dreamed of going to Italy."
But there's been a change in the flight plan. They've landed in Holland and there you must stay.
The important thing is that they haven't taken you to a horrible, disgusting, filthy place, full of pestilence, famine and disease. It's just a different place.
So you must go out and buy new guide books. And you must learn a whole new language. And you will meet a whole new group of people you would never have met.
It’s just a different place. It's slower-paced than Italy, less flashy than Italy. But after you've been there for a while and you catch your breath, you look around.... and you begin to notice that Holland has windmills....and Holland has tulips. Holland even has Rembrandts.
But everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy... and they're all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you will say "Yes, that's where I was supposed to go. That's what I had planned."
And the pain of that will never, ever, ever, ever go away...because the loss of that dream is a very very significant loss.
But... if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn't get to Italy, you may never be free to enjoy the very special, the very lovely things ... about Holland.

[BillMarks]

Personally, I find discussions of censorship and who gets to complain about what extremely offensive. Just kidding.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Dwight (my apologies to those offended by hitting nails on the head). I've never understood why people who are offended by a thread keep coming back to it to add their bile to it (my apologies to those whe either like bile or believe bile gets a bad name from comments like mine). I think you are right, though, in seeing it as a control issue (my apologies to those with control issues who are offended by control issues brought to the forefront of this discussion). Also, some people are threatened by ideas that differ from theirs (my apologies to those who are offended by discussions of fear). That fear is often converted to anger toward the person who thinks differently (my apologies to those offended by the relationship between anger and fear). There isn't much to be done with people like that (my apologies to the more optimistic out there). But I wouldn't bother editing posts for them--you'd never finish!

[cosworth]

Not if your know someone who is mentally handicapped. The word was used to denograte another person based upon someone elses condition who can do nothing about it. These wonderful people do not need to be used as a measuring stick or scale to describe another person, etc.

I don't think you've actually read this thread in its' entirety.

I know far more mentally handicapped people than you could possibly imagine.

Lastly, dwight's use of the "R" word had ZERO context in response to any handicapped person on earth. if you cannot see that, it is your loss.

your two years into a new life with your Son. archive this thread and come back to it in ten years and see how you feel. You will learn a lot about yourself.

[DwightMcCann]

I thank you all for your contributions. I am now clear that (1) there is no way to say anything and still be totally inoffensive (not that I have any interest in that anyway); (2) having felt the power and glory of the "ignore list" to mellow my life, it is much easier to both ignore offensive things said and ignore those offended by what is said; (3) remember to focus on the PHOTOGRAPHY. There are no curealls. There will always be someone wanting to control ever more specific details of what others do and say and they will always have their rationalizations many of which will be totally dysfunctional albeit heart rending (my apologies to those with heart disease [of which I am one.]) But if I just keep pressing myself to focus on the PHOTOGRAPHY and let the moderators moderate I expect that I will get entangled in many fewer disputes ... even though I love disputes ... which is the appropriate milieu for this set of Forums.

BillMarks: I am offended by your timidity and apologies! (I apologize to those who are offended by remarks about being offended) :-)

I will be photographing Johnny Mathis tonight with a lighter heart (I apologize to those with heart disease, again ... dang, it is just so hard to avoid idioms, eh?)

[zacker]

Wait a second here, Im a bit confused... i cant seem to figure out how someone saying a gilr in a picture looks retarded transcends into someone thinking it was a jab at them or thier kid... I dont see it!

I got slapped by a mod once, Someone posted a shot of thier basement and i commented on it and said something like (great Basement O'Death ya got there" as there were dead animal heads hanging on the walls...lol I then apologized like the nice guy i am and then retracted my statement on the post like the nice guy i am and the OP said he wasnt offended at all.. Go figure! Anyhow, Bless the Mods and Pekka...you all rock! And Im sorry I think i was the one who at first got carried away with the "Religion remarks" but if you can see the thread still, i tried to reign it in and get back on topic.. so, sorry if i caused any grief!, but it was that damn Lordi... them and the devil made me do it!
lol
-zacker-

[PAS Photography]

Wow, quite the topic. I think as previously stated there are a few members that have way too much time on their hands and rather than complain in a forum... go out enjoy the REAL life and shoot some photos. If your posting more times on forums than images shot per day on average... you might want to rethink your reason for being on any forum in the first place. And thats just my opinion of course. I think its childish to sit and argue with a computer screen, if you cant be more constructive than that you dont need to be on here in agreeance with the moderators. Even if the moderators were more strict I dont think it would be out of line.
A Photograph... is a depiction of what one individuals eyes catch, and another misses.

[Reeforbust]

Wait a second here, Im a bit confused... i cant seem to figure out how someone saying a gilr in a picture looks retarded transcends into someone thinking it was a jab at them or thier kid... I dont see it!

I do......And I can understand the other side of the story, but like you say, it wasn't a jab at all.

[Mrs Smarty Pants]

I honestly think that having someone close to you with problems like this causes you to be a little over protective.......trying to "fight" for their honor?!
I also think that it's a subliminal thing......You don't wake up everyday saying "I wonder who will use the phrase Retarded today" but deep inside you just want to protect them from the harsh world, very understandable and agreeable. I just wish that when you read something, you pay attention to how it is used and not just that the word "offends" you...

As the mom of a 2.5 year old severely brain damaged/mentally retarded little boy with Cerebral Palsy (who was born "normal") I do my best to take things in the manner in which they were intended.

When I read Dwight's line I didn't immediately think that he was referring to my son - I thought "yeah she does".

I feel that if I went around feeling offended every time someone said something that "could" be considered offensive I'd have no time for anything else.

Kona - Believe me when I tell you that I *KNOW* where you're at - and I may eat the words in this post the next time some stranger looks at my son "funny" - but after having countless doctors TELL me he's retarded .. well it's just a PART of who he is.

Here's the link to my blog entry on being a special needs parent - I hope it "helps" :)

Not ALL Needs Are Special (http://rsmartypants.diaryland.com/special.html)

[cosworth]

There was a thread not long ago complaining about an avatar that was considered offensive by a member. It involved a dancing stormtrooper from Star Wars. The "gesture" the animated avatar was making involved a hip thrust.

This reminded me of the Elvis the Pelvis outrage and I got a chuckle out of it. but, someon WAs offended and as much as we want to dismiss it it was real.

Someone was offended by use of the word retarded here. Will any of us choose to not use this word again? I'm sure of it. We as posters/members have to be aware that our opinion is not shared by everyone and we need to tolerate each other.

The word could have been substituted for another - yes. The offended member could have just let it go and accepted that some people type in slang. Dwight could have been more sensitive and the offended ones could have considered, for just ONE SECOND, that the word didn't infer anything to do with handicapped persons.

It's the internet people. Let's all wake up and be aware this is not Kansas anymore. I saw a Dave Chappelle skit on the internet last night that was quite fitting. Some may know the one. Not that it's a blanket excuse to be an ass, but realize that people behind the usernames are sometimes 17 years old and ultra conservative or 67 years old, ex-hippies and have sex swings in the front room.

Mrs Smarty Pants thanks for the yin to another parent's yang. Mods can keep the balance, but we should be aware of our own balance.

[Reeforbust]

As the mom of a 2.5 year old severely brain damaged/mentally retarded little boy with Cerebral Palsy (who was born "normal") I do my best to take things in the manner in which they were intended.

When I read Dwight's line I didn't immediately think that he was referring to my son - I thought "yeah she does".

I feel that if I went around feeling offended every time someone said something that "could" be considered offensive I'd have no time for anything else.

Kona - Believe me when I tell you that I *KNOW* where you're at - and I may eat the words in this post the next time some stranger looks at my son "funny" - but after having countless doctors TELL me he's retarded .. well it's just a PART of who he is.

Here's the link to my blog entry on being a special needs parent - I hope it "helps" :)

Not ALL Needs Are Special (http://rsmartypants.diaryland.com/special.html)


Trust me......I can understand where you all are coming from.....it has to be really tough, but this word is used not as a derogatory slap in your face. This word is used just like the word "Gay" is used. That guys pant's look Gay?!
Do the pant's look like they want to run out and find some more pants of the same sex?? NO......They just look Gay or stupid or silly or the "re" word.

This thread is draining........:rolleyes:

[Ballen Photo]

Wait a second here, Im a bit confused... i cant seem to figure out how someone saying a gilr in a picture looks retarded transcends into someone thinking it was a jab at them or thier kid... I dont see it! Please allow me to explain my interpretation of what I feel is the point.
Calling Ms Hilton a name that implies she's stupid was not the issue. The issue is with using a word that also is synonamous with the situation that many children and parents have to deal with, with the implications now that this word is a bad thing. But WAIT! This word is synonamous with a condition that many innocent children are forced into, with no choice on their part to have to live under this stigma? I never thought about this before this subject came up, and have been guilty of using the word "Retard" in a bad way, without thinking anything about it. (I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer either at times.) I have seen the error of my ways, and if I can, surely you folks can too. :rolleyes:
-Bruce

[Mrs Smarty Pants]

it has to be really tough, but this word is used not as a derogatory slap in your face. This word is used just like the word "Gay" is used. That guys pant's look Gay?!
Do the pant's look like they want to run out and find some more pants of the same sex?? NO......They just look Gay or stupid or silly or the "re" word.


Dude I'm agreeing with you (kind of) :)

It's one thing to have someone refer to something as retarded in my presence (it would just be "another word") - and it's a totally different thing to have someone actually CALL my son a retard (even though he is - I would need to be held back)

*just to clarify - I don't think anyone here actually CALLED someone a retard*

[DwightMcCann]

We need a "Swear Jar"! We come up with a list of "hurtful" words and whenever you use one in a post, regardless of context or alternate meanings or your actual intent, you have to donate a $1 USD (I apologize to those who use a different currency) to POTN!

[cosworth]

a condition that many innocent children are forced into...
-Bruce

There are plenty of handicapped adults as well.

[cdifoto]

I think we should get Miss Hilton's opinion on this. :)

[MazerRakhm]

We need a "Swear Jar"! We come up with a list of "hurtful" words and whenever you use one in a post, regardless of context or alternate meanings or your actual intent, you have to donate a $1 USD (I apologize to those who use a different currency) to POTN!

Now that is a good idea!

Help defray costs and all.

Have you donated to POTN lately? (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.php)

[Reeforbust]

Dude I'm agreeing with you (kind of) :)

It's one thing to have someone refer to something as retarded in my presence (it would just be "another word") - and it's a totally different thing to have someone actually CALL my son a retard (even though he is - I would need to be held back)

*just to clarify - I don't think anyone here actually CALLED someone a retard*


Well, thanks for that..........I'm sure we all see the difference here.


IF

If you think you are beaten, you are.
If you think you dare not, you don't.
If you'd like to win, but think you can't,
It's almost certain you won't.
If you think you'll lose, you've lost.
For out of the world we find
Success begins with a fellows will.
It's all in the state of mind.
If you think you're outclassed, you are.
You've got to think high to rise.
You've got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.
Life's battles don't always go
To the stronger or faster person.
But sooner or later the person who wins
Is the one who thinks they can.

[JCR]

Origins of retard Latin : Tardus - slow

so recap, retarded means slow, nothing more nothing less, it does not mean a special needs child is anything other than a human being like the rest of us, nor did I see it being used that way. Is it ok to refer to a special needs child as a special needs child? or is this wrong also?
An engine can have timings considered retarded.

Personally I find if you really want to rattle some cages, post pictures of a woman with a large bottom on show. ... ok ok i'm kidding on the bottom thing, look smilie ----->> :D

People are going to find it hard to communicate beyond 'great photo' soon.

[cdifoto]

Hasn't anyone ever heard of fire retardant clothing? That doesn't mean it has special needs...or there is something wrong with it...or it should be offended.

[MazerRakhm]

Hasn't anyone ever heard of fire retardant clothing? That doesn't mean it has special needs...or there is something wrong with it...or it should be offended.

It might need to be. I work with a charity group that does a large fund raiser on the street corners once a year for the mentally handicapped / learning disabled. Last year we had to buy all new yellow vests that read MH/LD because the old ones said the word retarded.

Times change, people take offence to different things, how many names have secretaries had now?

[zacker]

That guys pant's look Gay?!

Sir, Are you saying my pants are Homosexual? Thats what your implying isnt it!, I know, I know all about you Homo-Pants-aphobics!!
so what if they are, I am not threatened by who my pants choose to sleep with... be it Chinos, black denim, Leather Chaps or Corduroy! :lol:

lol
-zacker-

[cdifoto]

My pants are very open-minded.

[Choderboy]

[Chorus:]
Everybody (ye-a!), everybody (ye-a!), let's get into it (Yea!).
Get stoopid (come on!).
Get retarded (come on!), get retarded (come on!), get retarded.
Let's get retarded (ha), let's get retarded in here.
Let's get retarded (ha), let's get retarded in here.
Let's get retarded (ha), let's get retarded in here.
Let's get retarded (ha), let's get retarded in here.
Yeah.

Black Eyed Peas , "Let's Get Retarded"

Anyone know if this was banned / censored at all?

[msad1217]

Times change, people take offence to different things, how many names have secretaries had now?
Or Stewardess, or housewife, or like me, I'm mostly a stay at home dad, or some of my friends call a "domesticated husband".

Here is a story from way back that I remember:

A long time ago, in my previous life I used to work at a hospital here in Seattle helping Registered Dieticians in dealing with cancer patients’ dietary need. More specifically I used to work at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Institute. We develop close relationships with a lot of our patients and their families who stay at the hospital for extended periods of time and we try to give the patients anything they ask for as far as food is concerned. Most of our patients are undergoing aggressive radiation and chemo treatments whose survival rate are mostly in the 50 percentile range, or less.

Anyway, there was one time one of my colleagues was complaining to the kitchen that one of her patients has to receive a certain type of food as it is very good for the patient and is also this patient’s favorite food, it was also somewhat rare. Well, there was a shortage in the supply and we ended up calling different hospitals and distributors trying to find this particular brand of food. For the past week she would go up to her patient and would tell her that they are looking far and wide for her food and that they have not forgotten about her.

Well finally they found a supplier somewhere and were able to order a bunch. My colleague was so excited when she heard this that she went running up to the 8th floor to tell her patient the good news. When she got up to her patients room as soon as she opened the door, she remarked.

“You’re going to die!”

Of course, realizing what she had just said, her expression of delight turned to horror. But she explained to her patient that she was so excited and what she said was a form of expression. Her patient started laughing and tried to assure her that no offense was taken and that she understood what she meant.

[Reeforbust]

Well....All fine examples, but I think it is just the difference in our circumstances. If I had a son that was different in anyway, I would probably feel a little offended if I heard that word....I guess.....I'm not in that situation so I can't say exactly.



So anyway......This rope walks into a bar and says "give me a beer!"
Bartender says "I don't serve rope in this bar" and kicks him out......

Rope walks back in and says "I just want a beer?!"
Bartender yells "get outta here before I kick you out......!"

Rope sits and thinks a minute.....Hmmmm.......Stands up and ties himself in a knot and then rubbs his head on the ground for a few minutes........He head's back into the bar................

Bartender says "LOOK, I said I don't serve drinks to Rope!"

Rope says..."oh, no sir, I'm no Rope!"

Bartender "You aint Rope?"

Rope......" NOPE, I'm afrayed Knot!!"

:lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

[Jaymz]

Or Stewardess, or housewife, or like me, I'm mostly a stay at home dad, or some of my friends call a "domesticated husband".

Here is a story from way back that I remember:

A long time ago, in my previous life I used to work at a hospital here in Seattle helping Registered Dieticians in dealing with cancer patients’ dietary need. More specifically I used to work at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Institute. We develop close relationships with a lot of our patients and their families who stay at the hospital for extended periods of time and we try to give the patients anything they ask for as far as food is concerned. Most of our patients are undergoing aggressive radiation and chemo treatments whose survival rate are mostly in the 50 percentile range, or less.

Anyway, there was one time one of my colleagues was complaining to the kitchen that one of her patients has to receive a certain type of food as it is very good for the patient and is also this patient’s favorite food, it was also somewhat rare. Well, there was a shortage in the supply and we ended up calling different hospitals and distributors trying to find this particular brand of food. For the past week she would go up to her patient and would tell her that they are looking far and wide for her food and that they have not forgotten about her.

Well finally they found a supplier somewhere and were able to order a bunch. My colleague was so excited when she heard this that she went running up to the 8th floor to tell her patient the good news. When she got up to her patients room as soon as she opened the door, she remarked.

“You’re going to die!”

Of course, realizing what she had just said, her expression of delight turned to horror. But she explained to her patient that she was so excited and what she said was a form of expression. Her patient started laughing and tried to assure her that no offense was taken and that she understood what she meant.

Thats funny and I am glad the patient didn't take offense.

[Citizensmith]

“You’re going to die!”

Ain't none of us going to get out of this alive. It all really comes down to how many L lenses you can own. :)

[zacker]

I have an "L" lens! its Cool... (hope i didnt offend any Eskimoes!)
-zacker-

[CyberDyneSystems]

Were telling jokes now.
I think this thread has run it's course,.