HELP Canon and Flash and Rebel XT

[Larry_NB]

I have used a 220 flash and found it lacking. I recently bought a 580 after a quick test of a 430, and thought the 580 would provide the punch needed. I used the 580 last night, some party pix, and I am not happy. I used AV priority and 1/200 flash sync, as well as Program, both at ISO 100 and 200. All distances within the range that the flash indicated proper. All images were dark, and I added + 1\3 exposure on the flash. The only shots acceptable were on auto, at 1\60 and ISO 400. What is the secret with Canon ?

Any quick comments appreciated. I tried another 580 this morning as well as a 430, sorry to say poor results, when compared with Nikon D70s and sb800 flash. I could post some samples later, but perhaps one of you has the answer, in quick mode !!


Thanks

[Larry_NB]

I am reviewing some of the eos flash bible, but still must be confused.

[Tareq]

In fact i got same results as you
but i played alot with flash then i know how to use it better
but forgive me i can't explain because it need time and i am not good in explanation as i am arabic guy.
If you can chat with me on msn now then i can tell you step by step as i have my flash next to me now.

[daclozer]

When you shoot in AV mode the flash will act as a fill flash and not a primary flash. You need to shoot in manual mode to put the flash into primary flash mode, set the flash to ETTL mode. I made the same mistake last weekend, my first outing with the 580, by shooting in av mode with poor results.

[sapearl]

I suppose just by dumb luck (old-school intuition) I did fairly well on a job 2 weeks ago: reception hall, banquet, speakers, etc.

Using the 5D with the 580, I had the camera set to manual, 1/30 @ f8, ISO 800. The flash was set to ETTL. Images were a little flat (bounced with the built in card) but I brought them back a bit in the RAW files. For the future I'll have to either "open up" a little more, or have the flash "throw" a little more out. - Stu

When you shoot in AV mode the flash will act as a fill flash and not a primary flash. You need to shoot in manual mode to put the flash into primary flash mode, set the flash to ETTL mode. ......

[sapearl]

So being quite new to the "intelligence" of the 580 myself, I want to make sure I'm really understanding it's AV Flash mode. Let me set up the scenario....

When I currently use my Metz to do an outdoor bridal portrait in nice even shade, I will (manually) hand meter, manually set the lens aperture for f8, manually set the shutter to the correct speed, and then set my flash, on auto, to flash at an intensity that is 1-stop less than the ambiently metered f8. This gives me perfect exposures and modeling.

Now, to do this with the 580 in AV mode and assuming I'm using a similar ISO, I would set my aperture to f8, my 5D would set it's own shutter to the proper speed (1/200th I believe) and then the 580 would squirt out just enough light to "fill" the subject.

Am I correct in assuming that this FILL will be 1/2 - 1 Stop less than the lens aperture of f8? Again, the goal is to use the flash not to BLAST out the subject in my nice outdoor shade, but to just gently fill in soft shadows. I suspect this is what is messing up a lot of users; it sure has me confused, and falling back to old familiar manual settings :confused: - Stu

When you shoot in AV mode the flash will act as a fill flash and not a primary flash. You need to shoot in manual mode to put the flash into primary flash mode, set the flash to ETTL mode. I made the same mistake last weekend, my first outing with the 580, by shooting in av mode with poor results.

[Larry_NB]

Thanks to all. You have helped some for sure. I have read more of the flash threads and the fog is lifting some. Being a Pentax and then Nikon film camera user over the last almost 30 years (25 Pentax the last 3-4 Nikon) & Canon........, Digital and flash, I am learning do not mix the same as they did with a film camera, even compared with cameras of 1999-2000 age group, such as MZ3 Pentax and then Nikon F80 and a Canon Elan 7. Such interesting times with technology.
Practice, practice........practice !!! Electronic film is not costly !!
Thanks again.

[rodliz]

Larry_NB
What kind of camera are you using your 580 ex with?

[rodliz]

Larry_NB
Sorry, it is late and I now see you have a Rebel XT. Does it have a custom setting in Av for 1/250 Tv. My 20d has this feature and allows different Av settings at the 1/250 Tv. It help a lot with my flash problems.

[StealthLude]

Av is your first problem if you are shootin indoors. AV is ok when its outside and really sunny, and using it for fill flash.

I owuld use Manual mode.

[sapearl]

I think you're discovering some of the same frustrations that a lot of us old film users have been encountering. ;) People keep telling me that Canon makes a great auto-exposure fill flash system. The more I shoot the more I'm beginning to understand this. As a main flash, something like my old Metz potato masher, i'm not sure the 580 quite measures up.

I second what Stealth is saying - use manual. I did a wedding reception Sunday on TV which worked out OK, but I may have really been better off setting the 5D to manual. I knew I wanted no shutter speed less than 1/40, so I chose TV instead of AV.

The venue was a bright hall, with a lot of afternoon diffuse sunlight streaming in from North facing windows. At ISO 800, most of my shots were 1/40 at around f5.6 plus or minus a stop. This matched the subject exposure to the ambient light, but I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying by the negs being just a little bit "thin." Fortunately I shot in RAW, so tweaking fixed things up. This was doubly necessary since my white balance was off.

........, Digital and flash, I am learning do not mix the same as they did with a film camera, even compared with cameras of 1999-2000 age group, such as MZ3 Pentax and then Nikon F80 and a Canon Elan 7. .......!!
Thanks again.

[In2Photos]

I suppose just by dumb luck (old-school intuition) I did fairly well on a job 2 weeks ago: reception hall, banquet, speakers, etc.

Using the 5D with the 580, I had the camera set to manual, 1/30 @ f8, ISO 800. The flash was set to ETTL. Images were a little flat (bounced with the built in card) but I brought them back a bit in the RAW files. For the future I'll have to either "open up" a little more, or have the flash "throw" a little more out. - Stu

I just bought a second hand 430EX and have been reading as much info about flashes as I can find. I have a question regarding the manual settings used here. What were you shooting specifically here? People dancing, toasting, speaking? Or just stationary objects around the room. Normally 1/30 is too slow to freeze people on the go. Can you help me understand how this setting allowed you to capture your subjects? Do you have any shots you can post for example? I have a notion about it but am finding it hard to explain in writing.

Thanks.

[aradhana]

the light we use, the same light will reflect and used by camera. SO every thing is about light and control of light.
Please do the settings as following.
Camera settings:-
Manual mode
speed 1/60( all time)
Aperture according to to Histogram( Press arrow then press info tab twice to see the result after shoot)
Graph should not touch left or right side. Left is too dark, right is too bright.
So adjust aperture setting according to result of first picture.
Keep in mind as soon as you change your distance fron the object of shooting or change the zoom, the aperture has to adjust again. So always keep an eye on graph, and after shooting see pic with quick enlarge for sharp ness and clarity.
A Focus point center
WB Auto

Flash settings:-
Mode M
Then press the center button in the circular radio knob.
Rotate radio knob to left until you see 1/2
Then press center button.
After a gap of time between the shooting, flash goes on its auto mode( E- TTL). so change sleep time or reset again to manual and 1/2 Flash comp.
For better results use flash difuser for for your EX580 ( cost $15). It is like a cap.( SBM SB0104 #0104 Supreme Flash Diffuser )

Now you are ready to shoot.
At manual mode you see all natural colors as you see by your eyes. Now you can control evreything.
First you feel it all difficult, but you will able to do all this very quickly as you go on shooting again and again.

Aradhana
============================================

I have used a 220 flash and found it lacking. I recently bought a 580 after a quick test of a 430, and thought the 580 would provide the punch needed. I used the 580 last night, some party pix, and I am not happy. I used AV priority and 1/200 flash sync, as well as Program, both at ISO 100 and 200. All distances within the range that the flash indicated proper. All images were dark, and I added + 1\3 exposure on the flash. The only shots acceptable were on auto, at 1\60 and ISO 400. What is the secret with Canon ?

Any quick comments appreciated. I tried another 580 this morning as well as a 430, sorry to say poor results, when compared with Nikon D70s and sb800 flash. I could post some samples later, but perhaps one of you has the answer, in quick mode !!


Thanks

[jfrancho]

I suggest you review the flash sticky here, EOS Bible, and the Photoworkshop video: http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/index.html. A little knowledge and understanding of how ETTL works will go a long way to better flash photography. Once you have this know-how, getting answers from POTN for more specific questions will be a lot easier for you.

[aradhana]

I shoot at party- People dancing, toasting, speaking
And also out door nature. close up and scenes

Manual setting gives you maximum control of aperture setting for control of light. and 1/60 speed gives you sharp focus for dance shooting.
1/30 sometimes give you shakey pictures. 1/30 is good when use with tripod.

Thanks
Aradhana

================================================== ======
I just bought a second hand 430EX and have been reading as much info about flashes as I can find. I have a question regarding the manual settings used here. What were you shooting specifically here? People dancing, toasting, speaking? Or just stationary objects around the room. Normally 1/30 is too slow to freeze people on the go. Can you help me understand how this setting allowed you to capture your subjects? Do you have any shots you can post for example? I have a notion about it but am finding it hard to explain in writing.

Thanks.

[sapearl]

In2, this situation as well as many others I've shot over the years (with film) had speakers, toasters, dancers, etc. The room was sufficiently dark, so even though I used 1/30 second for the shutter, the faster firing flash froze any potential blurring motion. Remember, when a flash fires, that duration can be as slow as 1/200 sec, or as fast as 1/50,000 sec if you're right up on top of the subject with the strobe on auto. Either of those is fast enough to freeze action.

You are correct regarding 1/30 as being too slow to freeze action, but only in a situation where there is strong ambient light. These were dark halls, so the strobe was the main light source and froze any movement.

I'm not at my home pc (lunch break) but will try to find to find a sample later.... I know, the concept can be daunting. - Stu

........... I have a question regarding the manual settings used here. What were you shooting specifically here? People dancing, toasting, speaking? Or just stationary objects around the room. Normally 1/30 is too slow to freeze people on the go. Can you help me understand how this setting allowed you to capture your subjects? Do you have any shots you can post for example? Thanks.

[Curtis N]

I used AV priority and 1/200 flash sync,This is fine, as long as you understand that it's the same as using Manual mode on the camera. Flash sync shutter speed (1/200 on your 350D) will minimize the amount of ambient light contributing to the image. This may or may not be what you want, but remember that shutter speed is the main way to control ambient light with flash, so it's best to use M so you can control it.What is the secret with Canon?It's not really a secret. E-TTL (and E-TTL II) will underexpose in many situations, and you need to adjust with +FEC. Settings of +2/3 to +1 are common.Manual mode
speed 1/60( all time)
Aperture according to to HistogramWith due respect to aradhana, his (her?) advice is a little dated. 1/60 shutter speed was flash sync on many cameras for many years, so a lot of people are in the habit of using that. There's nothing magical about that setting. Watching your histogram is a good idea, but adjusting your aperture won't change the flash exposure unless you're using manual flash (E-TTL will adjust the flash output to compensate for changes in aperture). Manual flash does give you more control, but makes it terribly difficult to adjust to dynamic situations. Small changes in distance can create big changes in exposure. Take a look at Flash Fact #3 here (http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=171657).

Using flash is complicated. It takes experience, experimentation, and a fundamental knowledge of how your camera and flash work together, before you can confidently attain consistent results. Keep trying!

[sapearl]

How true about the underexposure aggravation. I'm finding that to be the case with my indoor reception shots done on both AV and TV. That's why I like to revert back to M at 1/30 sec.

When I correct things in RAW I find I have to bump things up a half stop or so. Anybody know why E-TTL II tends to do that?

. E-TTL (and E-TTL II) will underexpose in many situations, and you need to adjust with +FEC. Settings of +2/3 to +1 are common.With due respect to aradhana, his (her?) advice is a little dated. 1/60 shutter speed was flash sync on many cameras for many years, so a lot of people are in the habit of using that. ....There's nothing magical about that setting. Manual flash does give you more control, but makes it terribly difficult to adjust to dynamic situations.

[Curtis N]

How true about the underexposure aggravation... I find I have to bump things up a half stop or so. Anybody know why E-TTL II tends to do that?The common guess is that it's designed to avoid blown highlights, but I think it's more complex.

E-TTL seems to work well for me without FEC when using direct flash in a large room. With the dark backgrounds produced by this scenario, the subjects are well-exposed. But when there is a bright wall behind the subject, or a window, or when I bounce the flash and light up the whole room, that's when I need to crank up the FEC.

My theory is that Canon's E-TTL system isn't as good at guessing what the subject is as Canon wants us to believe. So they calibrate it to avoid blown highlights in scenarios with dark backgrounds, since the brightness of the background obviously affects the flash metering.

A side note - Av and Tv modes are designed to meter for ambient light. If flash is your primary light source and you don't want the ambient light to contribute significantly to the image, then there isn't much point in using those modes.

[Tee Why]

There is another nice thread on using flash in the lens section as well.
I'm relatively new to using flash as well but I'll try to explain.
If you have enough ambient light and are using the flash for fill in to get rid of harsh shadows, then you should use a high sync speed and use either M or Av or Tv mode (per prior poster, although I prefer Av). This way in Av/Tv mode the camera will meter for the ambient light and the flash will just fill in for the shadows. You can work with FEC to get the proper amount of fill in for the shadows.

Now moving onto using the flash as your main source of light, I think "dragging the shutter" is the way to go. Dragging the shutter requires a very slow shutter speed, along lines of 1/15 or about 1/20 sec. The brief burst of the flash will freeze the subject and the slow shutter speed (with relative high aperature) will allow allow ambient light to expose the background. This allows you to have a well exposed subject with a visible background. If you don't drag the shutter, the shutter speed will be faster and there won't be enough time for the background to be exposed, especially if the background is too vast and/or far for the flash to reach.

I tried using Av mode in a dark place to shoot and it was horrible, so I sucked it up and experimented with M mode and learned on the spot.
Here are some of my first efforts.
83176

83177

[PacAce]

I have used a 220 flash and found it lacking. I recently bought a 580 after a quick test of a 430, and thought the 580 would provide the punch needed. I used the 580 last night, some party pix, and I am not happy. I used AV priority and 1/200 flash sync, as well as Program, both at ISO 100 and 200. All distances within the range that the flash indicated proper. All images were dark, and I added + 1\3 exposure on the flash. The only shots acceptable were on auto, at 1\60 and ISO 400. What is the secret with Canon ?

Any quick comments appreciated. I tried another 580 this morning as well as a 430, sorry to say poor results, when compared with Nikon D70s and sb800 flash. I could post some samples later, but perhaps one of you has the answer, in quick mode !!


Thanks
Curtis nicely addressed you issues with the flash. And I just wanted to add one little side note to it. You indicated that when you shoot in auto mode with shutter at 1/60 and ISO at 400 your shots were acceptable. Well, that should give you a big clue as to what's happening to your other pictures and why they look underexposed. It seems like you are using the degree of background lighting as a gauge to determine if your shots are exposed correctly or not. If you use a shutter speed of 1/200 and an ISO of 100 or 200, you are not going to get as much ambient lighting registering on your shots as when you shoot at 1/60 and ISO 400.

As for the Nikon cameras, when you shoot using flash and in aperture priority, they automatically limit the slowest shutter speed to 1/60. WIth the Canon cameras, in Av mode, the shutter speed could go as slow as 30 seconds. So, that means that although the exposure may be right, you may still not be happy with the images shot with the Canon in Av mode because of the blur caused by the very slow shutter speed. And the best way to avoid that is to set the camera to manual mode and dial in your own shutter speed and aperture and adjust ISO as appropriate.

[PacAce]

So being quite new to the "intelligence" of the 580 myself, I want to make sure I'm really understanding it's AV Flash mode. Let me set up the scenario....

When I currently use my Metz to do an outdoor bridal portrait in nice even shade, I will (manually) hand meter, manually set the lens aperture for f8, manually set the shutter to the correct speed, and then set my flash, on auto, to flash at an intensity that is 1-stop less than the ambiently metered f8. This gives me perfect exposures and modeling.

Now, to do this with the 580 in AV mode and assuming I'm using a similar ISO, I would set my aperture to f8, my 5D would set it's own shutter to the proper speed (1/200th I believe) and then the 580 would squirt out just enough light to "fill" the subject.

Am I correct in assuming that this FILL will be 1/2 - 1 Stop less than the lens aperture of f8? Again, the goal is to use the flash not to BLAST out the subject in my nice outdoor shade, but to just gently fill in soft shadows. I suspect this is what is messing up a lot of users; it sure has me confused, and falling back to old familiar manual settings :confused: - Stu
Stu, your approach to setting the camera when using the Metz sounds like a very intelligent one. So why not use the same technique when shooting wth the 580EX? Why do you need to use Av mode when using the 580EX while you use manual mode when using the Metz? To set the 580EX to contribute 1 stop less light than the ambient, just dial in -1 FEC on the flash (or the camera if your prefer that). :)

[sapearl]

Excellent point Pac.... I guess that being confronted with all the super duper automation of the 580 and the camera's TTL smarts, I feel some sort of obligation to at least learn how it works ;) . In fact I may actually be overcomplicating my life in some situations by trying to use the automation.

I've got a wedding this weekend which will be a combination of MF film and the 5D. I'll be shooting RAW so that will be a good time to throw in a bit of experimentation. And then there's the whole white balance issue with all that simultaneous contrast being thrown in by the green foliage....

Stu, your approach to setting the camera when using the Metz sounds like a very intelligent one. So why not use the same technique when shooting wth the 580EX? Why do you need to use Av mode when using the 580EX while you use manual mode when using the Metz? To set the 580EX to contribute 1 stop less light than the ambient, just dial in -1 FEC on the flash (or the camera if your prefer that). :)

[PacAce]

Excellent point Pac.... I guess that being confronted with all the super duper automation of the 580 and the camera's TTL smarts, I feel some sort of obligation to at least learn how it works ;) . In fact I may actually be overcomplicating my life in some situations by trying to use the automation.

I've got a wedding this weekend which will be a combination of MF film and the 5D. I'll be shooting RAW so that will be a good time to throw in a bit of experimentation. And then there's the whole white balance issue with all that simultaneous contrast being thrown in by the green foliage....
Stu, that's one of the weird things about the Canon EOS cameras and their dedicated flashes. No matter what camera mode you are using, whether it be P, Av, manual, etc., the flash will still think on its own and shoot in auto mode as long as the flash is set to ETTL mode. It doesn't give a hoot about the camera exposure mode selected. Now, it's a different story when you're talking about the G-series cameras. When you set a G-series camera to manaul mode, the flash goes into manual mode, too. No wonder there are so many confused G-series to EOS convertees. :confused:

If it helps, just think of the 580EX as an Metz in auto mode whose brain has been moved into the EOS body (more so if you have the ETTL custom function set for Average instead of Evaluative). Actually, the ETTL logic is a little more complicated than the logic used in the Metz in auto mode but don't mind that for now. ;)