Mods: New sub section for posting wives

[weka2000]

Is it possible that we could have a sub secton with in this area for those who photograph their wives/girl freinds/older woman.

Many of us feel a little un easy about posting our wives in a section that has a lot of other posters that are professionals and who use models.

Any one else agree with the idea.

[jbkalla]

I don't disagree with the idea, but Glamour & Nude gets few enough postings as it is. A split would lower that even more, but I guess I don't have a problem with that.

If it makes the posters feel more comfortable, I think it's a good idea! :-)

[liza]

It would be nice to have a subsection for shots of normal women. ;)

[cgratti]

It would be nice to have a subsection for shots of normal women. ;)
Normal women? You mean there are NORMAL WOMEN? Ha Ha Ha...

[jbkalla]

It would be nice to have a subsection for shots of normal women. ;)

Actually, that's an even better idea: Glamour & Nudes:Models and Glamour & Nudes:Other. (or whatever)

[weka2000]

I want people to learn with a common topic. Those of us who do photograph our wives often share simalar situations and problems.
We are not proffesionals, nor are our wifes models.

[JaertX]

It would be nice to have a subsection for shots of normal women. ;)

Normal? This always cracks me up when the subject comes up...when someone says "normal" I guess they mean not of model quality. But can't an attractive, fit woman be normal too? I thought posting these shots on the merits of the photographer, not the model..."normal" or otherwise.

[Lorek]

what is a normal woman? a wife? Well, mine is not normal and that's why I married her!

[JaertX]

Mine either Lorek, she's not a model, but she's nowhere near normal...unfortuneatly for her...she married a normal man! lol...at least by some people's definition.

[weka2000]

Ok maybe I should have said bigger and older woman.

Lorek your work is amazing, many of us just have our wives as models and they have had kids put on a few pounds and gravity has set in.

We have a lounge and basic lighting.

I have to watch what I say last time I got into this discussion.

[cyber_m0nkey]

When my wife starts letting me shoot her, then I'll weigh on the discussion. In the meantime, I will have to settle for professional models :twisted:

[DocFrankenstein]

so you want to divide the glamour forum in two sections:
The good looking naked models
The fat, old and wrinkly

What if somebody thinks their wife isn't fat, old and wrinkly, but she actually is? Should the mods move it to the appropriate forum?
What if somebody's wife gets offended, because her husband has placed her in the second category?

I wouldn't mind splitting it like that at all. I'm not a gerontophile

[weka2000]

Ok I will go back under my rock after that last post.

You cant be serious with those comments.

[condyk]

I think Doc makes a good point in his usual humourous and mildly subversive way. It's all about perception. Adding a section for women of the type you describe does nothing but continue to stereotype 'beauty' and 'glamour'. The best thing to do IMVHO is populate this section with lots and lots of shots of all kinds of men and women. Having a 'ghetto' section is not a solution.

[Belmondo]

IMHO this is unworkable for the reasons already mentioned.

I would absolutely love to see some way to encourage more photos of the type being discussed. After all, we're primarliy interested in the art and technique of the photo---not the subject matter.









Aren't we?:o

[weka2000]

Personaly I prefer not to put my wife in the same camp as teenage paid Stick figure.

Apples with apples after all how can you compare an apple with a banana

excuse my humor.

My mistake for the sujestion

[weka2000]

IMHO this is unworkable for the reasons already mentioned.

I would absolutely love to see some way to encourage more photos of the type being discussed. After all, we're primarliy interested in the art and technique of the photo---not the subject matter.

Aren't we?:o

Yet we have 2 camera sections. SLR and other
We have birds and animals
Motorsport and transportation

[Belmondo]

I think the challenge of explaining to one's wife or girlfriend why her photos were placed in the "average-looking-women" forum instead of the "gorgeous-babe" forum might create more problems than advantages for most of our members.

Beauty is subjective; let the viewer decide.

[condyk]

Yet we have 2 camera sections. SLR and other
We have birds and animals
Motorsport and transportation

I would find this kind of comparison offensive if I were a woman (I'm not BTW!!) Physical appearance is just one very glib aspect of beauty. It is transient and subjective. You could post shots of her in People if you don't want to 'compare' her to the women that are sometimes featured here (I find quite a mix to be honest). Again tho', if I was your missus (which I'm not!!) your desire for avoiding 'comparison' would be offensive to me.

For fun I just typed into Google 'worlds most beautiful woman' and clicked on the first entry ... check out her quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/29/60minutes/main663862.shtml

Seems she understands the nature and transience of so called 'beauty' perfectly well. Look deeper and the 'unit' of comparison may well change.

[SuzyView]

Okay, I'll come in now since I've been offended. ;)

I do find this thread very interesting. Yes, I would be offended if my husband put my picture in the "average or below average" section because the "normal" section goes to models or teenage stick figures. I don't know what the answer is for you, weka, because I understand where you are coming from. I am never offended if someone puts a picture of a girlfriend or spouse in the people section. I guess what I would like to see is a "Nude" section all on its own because I'd be interested in how you all photograph "normal" women, but I don't go into that section at all. I am starting to do more portraits of "beautiful average women" here in my home, some are young, h.s. graduates with their caps and gowns, but mostly Moms with their children. Maybe a "portrait" section w/o nudity?

[fkh]

i agree with that idea. sometimes people just need feedback and not trying to create best polished top flattering glamour shot. There is people gallery already, but i would create new one. Idea it might be
Glamour & Nude (restricted for public posters)
Experimental Act photo(restricted for public posters)
B&w FKH photography (restricted for public posters)
People (General, family shots)

[zacker]

i think its a bad idea like DOC Frankenstein on this.. if you stick your wife in the glamor section and a mod moves it to the "normal" forum, you might get all bent and then well have another problem like the "Retarded" discussial of last week! Proof that not everybody can handle certain things as well or not as well as you..
-zacker-

[bikerider]

I'm surprised there's even a discussion on this! Glamour and Nude are styles of photography, not a body type. If you post a shot in this forum of a woman or man no matter who it is, they should be portrayed as either glamorous or nude, simple. The other issue here, is the skill of the photographer in being able to present a model in a glamorous or nude manner. The variation in skill is accepted here very well in my experience, it's the attempt that's important.
Roger.

[Mike6158]

I'm surprised there's even a discussion on this! Glamour and Nude are styles of photography, not a body type. If you post a shot in this forum of a woman or man no matter who it is, they should be portrayed as either glamorous or nude, simple. The other issue here, is the skill of the photographer in being able to present a model in a glamorous or nude manner. The variation in skill is accepted here very well in my experience, it's the attempt that's important.
Roger.

Excellent answer... Obviously the old adage (that I just made up) that bike riders are the best looking most, intelligent people on the planet, is true.

[JaertX]

yep..Doc's post definitely nails it.

and still...isn't it strange how it's okay to insult someone who's thin (whether they really WANT to be or not) by calling them a stick figure and no one blinks...but if you call someone who's a little overweight or even chunky "disgustingly obese" you'd be thrown to the dogs?

Anyway, hey, maybe we could put a disclaimer on posts like there used to have to be when glam stuff was posted in the people forum. But instead of "NWS" or "caution--nudity" it could have "caution---twiggy pics" or "caution--el lardo pics" Yeah, that's not going to offend anyone's wife! heh.

[fkh]

I think that one gallery for not finetuned raw fine act photo and one for perfected FHM wanabe style glamour shots would be nice. It is not about not accepting anything but 1st page girls, it is about that act is not equal to glamour and in that new gallery maybe even some fine fetish photography might be accepted.
I would never post a pic of tied 35y/o nude woman in current glamour gallery. And it doesnt matter how many awards it got or how nice it is for me - it doesnt belong there.

Glamour, Fashion nude/underwear = MISS UNIVERSE
Fine/Experimental act photography = ALL WE LIKE TO DO AND NEED FEEDBACK

(and i dont like to fix imperfections on human body, but Glamour shots REQUIRES it and it is not right to not be able to publish photo of girl with some overweight and alike)

[Claire]

I have to side with Bikerider & Doc in this thread. It's not a good idea to divide the G&N into two forums (not the proposed types at least). Doc gave the main reasons in a very honest & straight to the point reply. Bikerider explained the purpose of the existing G&N perfectly.

As a woman (no kids & no gravity yet, but with a few kg's too many) I'd imagine majority of wifes / girlfriends would feel quite insulted if they found out
their partner posted shots of them in the "average looking women" forum instead of the "glamorous women" forum. There'd be a lot of POTN males sleeping on the couch...

Also, as Doc said, what if a Mod moved a thread to the "average/normal women" forum. How would the woman & photographer feel? We'd end up with angry PMs to the Mods saying "What, my wife's not attractive enough to fit in the "glamorous forum??"

Bikerider hit the nail; glamour & nude is a style of photography. It's about bringing out the glamorous, sensual, sexy & perhaps erotic side of the model & overall feel of an image. No matter the model's look/body type.

At this time the G&N does not draw enough people to post for it to have sub-forums in my opinion. Perhaps in the future there'd be some, but not now.

I do second that we should encourage everyone to post though, no matter if you have a studio or just whatever's in your house. And I do hope people don't feel they can't post shots in the G&N because their wife's not a size 8/10, or because they don't own pro lights, or because the subject happens to be a male.

Oh, and on a personal note, I'd be quite insulted if my partner asked a forum to start a new forum section for posting shots of me 'cos he thinks I shouldn't be among the young, slim women, 'cos I'm old, big & gravity has set in... That'd hardly make me feel more attractive! More the opposite...

/Claire

[MDJAK]

I agree with everybody. Split it. Don't split it. I don't care. If I posted a picture of my wife and she found out, there would be no more L lenses for christmas and my birthday. :)

mark

[condyk]

There'd be a lot of POTN males sleeping on the couch...



I mate of mine has a friend he calls the 'sleeping bag guy' because he spends most of his time having to sleep in a sleeping bag on the bed because his wife is pis*ed off with him :lol: :lol: I call him Snail Boy ... tho' I've never met him. We'd have a lot of Snail Boys here if we followed up some of these suggestions :lol: :lol: I echo the sentiments about people posting all sorts here, even if the lighting sucks and whatever size and shape and colour and gender, and, and ... whatever the model looks like. Post 'glamour' shots of yourselves and give us all a laugh ;)

[fkh]

Claire, it is better not about nice and average nice women, it is about glamour and act photo.

I would post most my stuffs in the Experimental act forum rather than glamour forum. It makes no sense to move anybody's posts to other forum than he posted thought - he should feel the difference and no moving is needed.
I would never believe that any my model would complain being posted in experimental act photo forum, but i see that my girlfriend would be offended by removing her issues (gather, specle,...) and posting her to glamour forum.

Trust me, if you open this forum for more experimental, controversy, maybe fetish photos you might see there many amazing art shots which would never be posted in glamour forum. Lookup at deviantart.com, there are artists which are match for best artist on the world and they will never post anything here simply because thread named "Glamour nude" is about striking beauty, maybe eroticism, but not allways about free art, passion and beauty of human body.
I am more surprised that nobody who is shooting male acts is here fighting for own forum (for those would be experimental act photo forum also perfect).

[Ballen Photo]

i think its a bad idea like DOC Frankenstein on this.. if you stick your wife in the glamor section and a mod moves it to the "normal" forum,I for one, would not want to be put in that position, and I'm willing to bet the other mods would feel the same way. This is just an aside from all the other reasons mentioned for "Nay". :rolleyes:
-Bruce

[Claire]

i agree with that idea. sometimes people just need feedback and not trying to create best polished top flattering glamour shot. There is people gallery already, but i would create new one. Idea it might be
Glamour & Nude (restricted for public posters)
Experimental Act photo(restricted for public posters)
B&w FKH photography (restricted for public posters)
People (General, family shots)

Fkh,
I'm not sure what "Experimental Act photo" really means, and "B&W FKH" is a bit unclear to me as well. B&W I'm assuming means black & white, but not sure what "FKH stands for.

IF there would ever be a discussion in the future among the Mods for sub-forums for the G&N, then I'd personally (at this stage) wouldn't mind to see these new sections: Male nudes/glamour, Experimental (fetish, erotica etc), and Fine Art Nudes. Within these categories I would want people to freely post whatever they come up with. No matter if they're novices just starting out, or seasoned pro's, and no matter if the models are slim, curvy, big or whatever else.

[fkh]

Fkh,
I'm not sure what "Experimental Act photo" really means, and "B&W FKH" is a bit unclear to me as well. B&W I'm assuming means black & white, but not sure what "FKH stands for.

IF there would ever be a discussion in the future among the Mods for sub-forums for the G&N, then I'd personally (at this stage) wouldn't mind to see these new sections: Male nudes/glamour, Experimental (fetish, erotica etc), and Fine Art Nudes. Within these categories I would want people to freely post whatever they come up with. No matter if they're novices just starting out, or seasoned pro's, and no matter if the models are slim, curvy, big or whatever else.

Yes, that is what i was trying to say. Nevermind the FKH section, it was a joke.

So sum is, we need not forum for wives, but for experimental act/nude shots where most of these shots can be posted aside with other interesting arts.

[condyk]

So sum is, we need not forum for wives, but for experimental act/nude shots where most of these shots can be posted aside with other interesting arts.

What is 'experimental act' ... and is there really enough traffic here to justify extra forums anyway? I would want to see lots more different style of models before even thinking of extra sub forums. People complaining they need extra sections should just post the shots anyway.

[Claire]

What does the whole "act" part stand for in your "experimental act" wording? Maybe I'm just being crap at English...

And I do not want to say that all "home made shots of wives/gfs without proper lighting equipment" should be posted in an experimental forum. I think shots should be posted wherever the photographer sees fit depending on the photographer's intended purpose (e.g. doing his best of shooting a glamour/fine art image).

[Claire]

What is 'experimental act' ... and is there really enough traffic here to justify extra forums anyway? I would want to see lots more different style of models before even thinking of extra sub forums. People complaining they need extra sections should just post the shots anyway.

I've already said this. ;) Just kidding. Like I said, not enough posts in this forum to warrant sub-forums yet, but who knows, if we're all really nice and encouraging to everyone on the forum, perhaps we'll see more mixed styles and sexes in the G&N. :)

[tommykjensen]

And I do not want to say that all "home made shots of wives/gfs without proper lighting equipment" should be posted in an experimental forum. I think shots should be posted wherever the photographer sees fit depending on the photographer's intended purpose (e.g. doing his best of shooting a glamour/fine art image).

In my opinion If this were to happen everybody would need to accept that if a photo is posted in the "wrong" subforum they would only be moved if the original poster requests it. As Bruce also said I would not like to be put in the position of having to move a post from for example glamour to experimental.

[weka2000]

Ok as per usual my original idea has gone a stray.

Maybe I should have said Professional models and photographers and non professional model and photographers.

Looks like my wifes right " you are much better when you do not open your mouth"

[Claire]

Tommy,
I also do not like the idea of moving posts from one forum to another. Like I've mentioned before, that would just result in angry PMs and posts. Something we all would like to avoid. Which is why I don't want any particular forum like the original poster suggested. I'm fully with Doc, Bruce and you in that opinion. I just wanted to highlight to fkh, that the way I read his post it sounded like he wanted all the "home made shots of wives/gfs without proper lighting equipment" shots in the Experimental category. I wouldn't want that.

But, hey, as we don't have enough people posting in the G&N anyway, I guess we can close this discussion now, as there most likely isn't a need for sub-forums yet. Hopefully some people who read this thread will feel encouraged to post more!

[cjsa]

Lots of non-pros do a great job, how do you decide who can post there? On if the photo is good enough? Maybe we should split all the photo-sharing like this- people-pro and people-non-pro, birds and rare birds, ugly animals only, good car shots and bad ones?
Lots of us are intimidated enough- now we should have to decide if we belong in the "real" section or not? Fat girl glamour and thin girl glamour?
And yes, I would be insulted if you put a picture of my 45 year old body in the wives category.

[cdifoto]

I think we need a Point n Shoot Porno section.


j/k :p

Sorry....just trying to bring a lil humor to this heavy discussion.


On the serious side, I feel intimidated enough when trying to approach a woman to pose, let alone actually shooting her and doing it well...and deciding in which forum it should go would make my head explode if I were to somehow even reach that point. Oye.

[Claire]

I think we need a Point n Shoot Porno section.


j/k :p

Sorry....just trying to bring a lil humor to this heavy discussion.

Ah yes! Good call! Don't forget the point n shoot performing arts section. All the people taking shots at concerts with their mobile phones can post there! ;)

Ok, my posts in this thread sure isn't going to make Pekka want to make me a moderator of any forum...LOL
/Claire

[weka2000]

Thank you to those who PM with your support but who cant post here.

To those who feel they have been insulted or feel I have no respect Im am sorry.

I have 2 daughters that my wife has banned from watching " who wants to be a super model" hosted by Tyra Banks or what ever her name and show is.

What does that show portray to young girls and woman.
When ever you see an ad with a woman in it what are they showing.
What is the world promoting about how a woman should look. Dieting, implants, etc is big money why because to many are trying to be somthing they are not in order to feel accepted and that they mesure up
to what a few have demed as perfect.
I dont want my girls growing up comparing themselves to under weight models that are portrayed as beautiful and what you should seek to become.

I want woman to be able to look in the mirror and be confident in who they are, the way they are. Not to be bombarded with a message that your are not good enough, your to short, to heavy, to round to be a model.
How many lives have been destroyed because the world told them they were not good enough.

Been a model is short lived. Been a woman and confident in who you are is for life.

[tommykjensen]

Thank you to those who PM with your support but who cant post here.


I have moved the thread to Forum Talk so everybody can partitipate in the discussion.

[weka2000]

Thank you.

[Claire]

I dont want my girls growing up comparing themselves to under weight models that are portrayed as beautiful and what you should seek to become.

I want woman to be able to look in the mirror and be confident in who they are, the way they are. Not to be bombarded with a message that your are not good enough, your to short, to heavy, to round to be a super model.


I second that women shouldn't compare themselves to the media image that's currently in fashion and be confident who they are. But that also includes feeling comfortable with perhaps being very slim, not having any curves (trust me, there are lots of girls who feel bad about this as well) as well as how tall they are (we've all heard stories how tall girls felt awkward in their teens) etc. It goes both ways. As someone in this thread said; why is it allowed to say a person's too thin, but not to say she/he's too big?

I think we all believe in teaching our kids and others around us to be confident in ourselves. No matter what we look like. And we can only do so much as our best to help them gain confidence in themselves.

[weka2000]

I grew up been told I was to skinny, my mates pumped iron to build muscle so they look good.

I realised that I was the way I was and accepted that. Now most of them have beer guts dont know how many woman find that attractive. Im still the same.

I wanted a place where people could feel comfortable about posting their photos of whoever they took without feeling intimadated.

When you start out trying to glamor all you have to work with to learn is others work. The others work normally consist of young models. Taken by very talented photographers in studios.

I stared in my lounge with helogen lights. I did not post here because I felt it didnt belong. "This is the glamor section" and im just a beginner. When I did post the feed back was so minimal I did bother again.

Post a photo of a young model and everyone comments. "WOW, how did you do that, she is amazing etc"

No wonder so many people dont post in the glamor section.

[Mike6158]

What is 'experimental act' ... and is there really enough traffic here to justify extra forums anyway? I would want to see lots more different style of models before even thinking of extra sub forums. People complaining they need extra sections should just post the shots anyway.

I'm just speculating but it looks like the posts are run thru a German -> English translator before they arrive here. The one that I use for English -> Spanish or Spanish -> English kind of gums things up in a similar manner.

[Chris L]

As someone who has yet to pass the requirements for posting in the Glamour & Nude I've been making do with reading this thread from afar so to speak.

I totally agree that this forum should be about glamour and nude styles of photography and not the age, size or sex of the model. There is beauty to be found in everyone and I personally feel it is more rewarding as a photographer to see the happiness on the face of someone who would maybe never have considered themselves glamouress or even pretty when they see a really good picture you've taken of them rather than just shooting the FHM style of glamour model all the time.

I don't for one minute think I have the skill to produce quality images of the sort that FHM etc. would publish regardless of the model or that it is any easier to do this.

I'm also well aware that many if not all professional models have some feature they are not totally comfortable with which says more about human nature and social conditioning than whether they are more or less beautiful than model B or C.

I'm off to bed now while I may still be talking some sense at least. Just my 0.02p worth

Regards,

Chris

[DocFrankenstein]

I think if we're demanding that teenagers don't compare themselves to supermodels, it would be fair to demand of the older people not to compare themselves to teenagers in terms of looks.

Also - why is the media influence portraid as negative? Some may choose to get insecure, but a lot will choose to get off their butt and exercise.

Or do you want to tell your kids that it's ok to be like this?
http://features.todaysparent.com/fat_action/images/home_2.jpg

There's diabetes, stroke and other diseases...

[weka2000]

How many people would post photos of their wives/husbands if they felt people would make positive encouraging comments, by poeple that were also starting out.

To me the issue is based on what is posted in the glamor section. Models only
the "hotter" the model the more replys

I posted a photo once. The joy that my wife got from seeing how attractive she was made my day, I got very little feed back.

Why was that?

Have a look at the "view times" of a post in the glamor section. New guys starting out get very little.

Where is the help, why they are all off looking at some 18 yr old.

[Mike6158]

Well... I for one hesitate to be very "vocal" when someone posts an image of their wife. If it's a model, comments are less "personal" in nature. Critique as well as compliment. I'm struggling a little to find the right words. I don't want to sound as if I am minimizing the professional models in any way... nor do I want to minimize the non-professional models in any way...

I can't seem to come up with what I want to say... sooo... I guess I won't say it.

[In2Photos]

I will poke my head in here and maybe try to shed some light on what Weka is trying to say. I think his reasoning behind this has become clouded in the discussion.

Most of the posts in the Glamor section are very good. The models and photographers are fantastic. They have great knowledge about lighting, posing and PP work so they produce fabulous results. There are some folks, like myself and weka, whom have tried to take shots of women not normally considered glamor models. These women are just as beautiful to us as any others, but often others don't agree. We are attracted to them in different ways. For instance, Lorek might post a shot of a model that is absolutely stunning and could fit in with the girls of Playboy, while I might take a picture of my wife, whom I believe is absolutely stunning, but wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of making it in Playboy. She just doesn't fit the mold, but she is still attractive to me anyway and that is what really matters.

Now if Lorek (not trying to single you out, but your shots are very good and very popular), posts his shot here and I post my shots here the comments and suggestions would be very different. his comments would most likely resemble "Nice shot, good job, beautiful model", while mine would most likely resemble" ". That is right they would be blank. While I am looking for critique and specifically call out for it I don't get the responses based on the fact that my model isn't the typical G&N model. But is that the reason? Unfortunately one seems to think so. Even though this may not be the reason it is one of the things that comes to mind. Why wouldn't the other G&N photographers help me out? Here is a link to a thread with my example:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=167386

It is really hard to write out everything that I want to say and I know that some of this is going to be taken the wrong way, but I have no intentions of calling anyone out, nor provoking any arguments. these are just my thoughts on what weka is trying to say. I think he is looking for a place to get constructive criticism of the "not so typical G&N model" pic that he wants to post.

[In2Photos]

How many people would post photos of their wives/husbands if they felt people would make positive encouraging comments, by poeple that were also starting out.

To me the issue is based on what is posted in the glamor section. Models only
the "hotter" the model the more replys

I posted a photo once. The joy that my wife got from seeing how attractive she was made my day, I got very little feed back.

Why was that?

Have a look at the "view times" of a post in the glamor section. New guys starting out get very little.

Where is the help, why they are all off looking at some 18 yr old.

Weka I just spent a few mintues writing a reply that speaks this exactly. I know how you feel.

[weka2000]

Ah some one gets me after all. That was well worded, thank you.

Lorek you are an amazing photograher.

Many of us only have our wives to model. They are indead beautiful, how do we capture their beauty as our emotions are so involved. We look at them and they make our hearts skip a beat.

I want to encourage those of us who are non-pro's who photograph non paid models to step up and post with out fear.

This is why I want a seperate group. Like minded people helping like minded people. Apples with apples.

It has nothing to with shape or age. It has to do with home setups and experence.

Try and find me a book that is not based around models, because I cant. Find me a site that tells you how photograph your wife in a glamrous way.

Find me people who are willing to say hey this is my wife how do you like the light and mood of this photo. Show me a 100 replys of helpful tips and no put downs .

Show me this and I will show you a world that is willing to change its views on what is true beauty, not dolled up glamor.

[cdifoto]

I would post and critique but I have no idea what I'm doing either. Heck I can't even critique a shot of a can of beans. :D

[weka2000]

I would post and critique but I have no idea what I'm doing either. Heck I can't even critique a shot of a can of beans. :D

So how else are you going to learn? We are all here to learn and to offer ideas and possible ways to improve based on things we have tryed.

One guy posted a photo of his wife in a dress walking along. It gave me an idea and I then did some simalar shots with my wife at the beach. I learnt more by his example than I did by just reading books.

NB when making critiques of others works remember that the model/wife may also read. Only takes 1 negative responce to put a person off posting again or the model/wife allowing you to post again

[tommykjensen]

Question:

If a thread do not get many views / responses in forum A why would the views / responses increase if it was in forum B ? In fact I believe the views / responses would decrease if this division was introduced.

Another question:

What determines which threads belong in forum A and which in forum B ? Should members now suddenly provide proof that they are proffesional as well as working with professional models? And what if a member post in forum A a photo that other members believe belong in forum B?

[weka2000]

Question:


What determines which threads belong in forum A and which in forum B ? Should members now suddenly provide proof that they are proffesional as well as working with professional models? And what if a member post in forum A a photo that other members believe belong in forum B?

Its all in the name i.e Birds and animals. Motorsport and transportation. SLR and other.

I dont have all the answers. All I know is that many of us would feel more confortable posting to an area that is between the people section and glamor/nude. Most of us would not post nude, but we would post more elegant photos that may deem "not suitable" for people.

My photos do not belong in Glamor/nude to me it is where the pros "hang out"
The guys who know what they are doing.

Lets face it how would you feel going to a party and everyones in a tux and you are as well dressed as you could be but not in a tux. Feel out of place?

We feel out of place. So we want our own place. Does it matter about how many posts there are (sorry im not a mod so I dont know the ramafications of setting up a new group).

Why dont we put it to a poll and see what people want? I have money that there are many people who want to say something but dont want to be labeled or shot down.

[tommykjensen]

You keep comparing photos of women/men with photos of animals and birds or motorsports and transportation. For these categories there is a clear definition of what goes where.

As for the tux thing. I don't own a tux and I don't care if everybody else has a tux on and I don't.

And You say G&N is where the pro's hang out? Hmmm what defines a pro? How do we determine who is a pro and who is not? I see many members that are not pro but they produce pro photos.

Yes I am sorry but with the many forums we already have it does matter how many posts there is. The bird forum was created because the number of bird photos was so huge it could carry a forum on its own. But the category other which had low traffic was sacrificed to even get the birds forum. So which forum would You see gone to make room for the division of G&N?

Feel free to start a poll.

As for commenting the photos. Personally I never comment on the photos in G&N because I don't feel comfortable commenting on that category of photos. That would not change with a new division of pro / non-pro sections. And I bet many other members feel the same way. G&N is not even a priority section for me to view but if/when I view I view threads by certain members because I know what to expect. Yes that makes it hard for newcomer / non-pro's but I don't see how a seperate forum would change that. In fact for me that would mean a lot of the threads I am not interested in would get out of the way and not even get a view.

Another aspect is that there are so many posts made daily that everybody have to prioritise what hey view and what they comment on. For me that priority is Animals & Nature, followed by Birds. Believe it or not the G&N forum is long down the list.

Also You have to conside how members view the forum. I use "new posts" which lists all new posts in one list regardless of the forum they are posted in so it does not make any difference if a photo is posted in the pro or non-pro forum they all appear in the same list.

[weka2000]

So which forum would You see gone to make room for the division of G&N?


None I retract my original request. Im not willing to scarifice any group to create a new one.

Thank you for your help clearing this matter up for me.

[Jaymz]

Why would one group have to be sacrificed to create a new one?

[tommykjensen]

Why would one group have to be sacrificed to create a new one?

I am just saying that last time a new forum was created another was sacrificed. Ultimately it is up to Pekka if he wants to add a new forum on the list or another one have to be sacrificed to make room.

Make the poll and see what the interest is. Based on the discussion here I highly doubt it will be created.

Following criteria are considered when a new forum is created:

- the current volume of traffic, is it outcrowding other posts in the forum where it currently is?
- the interest of a new forum
- can the contents be clearly defined so there is no question where what belongs?
- and for this particular forum request: is the moving of threads between the forums likely to upset members? (in my opinion that is a Yes)

[weka2000]

Well it seems that a lot more people are comming out of the wood work. A commone issue is comming out that poeple are not willing to post into glamor due to the fact that they feel its the wrong place.

Their wives are not "model" material but would like to post to learn how to become better photographers.

As for which group would have to be chopped, I see the rumors section is very quite :)

Again thank you to those who PM me with your support for the idea.

Change happens when people make a stand

[Moppie]

I can see your coming from Tony, but I think you might be grossly under-estimating the ablity of this forum to help people with little experiance, and with out access to profesional models.

We don't have seperate forums here for profesional landscape photographers, or motorsport photographers, they simply get lumped in with the rest of us amatures with a varying levels of kit.
Advice is then given freely to who ever needs it, or asks for it.
I have never seen anyone act like a snob because they were a pro and an amature was posting in the same forum, and I know there are enough very amature looking photos (snap shots) in the forums that people with no experiance have no shame in posting in a forum they share with Pro's.

The G&N forum is, IMO no exception, I don't post in it, but I do read it, and they advice is fantastic, regardless of the type of model, or the equipment used.

If you want an example take a look at drisley work, his wife does not meet normal standards of "beauty" she is fitter than I will ever be, and Im very jelous of her abbs. Drisley takes some wonderful photos of her, but he didn't always (I hope he takes this the right way), he started with no knowledge of glamour photography, but made some very good attempts, posted them, and asked for advice. His work now, useing quite simple equipment, is very, very good, and I have enjoyed watching his photography evolve. IMO he's now at a level he could start charging for his services.


I can see no rational reason why would want to have amature and proffesional forums under the same catagory heading, it would totaly defeat the purpose of this forum, and thats for people of any background and experiance level to come share in a common passion.

[Claire]

Ok, if I was to really look at sub-dividing things such as Natur --> birds. I think that division ended up because there were tons of bird shots. If there suddenly is an influx of horse shoots I'd guess there would at some point be a "Horse" forum.

The G&N style shots were before posted in the "People" section, but had to be labelled "Not work safe" so people wouldn't accidentally open them at an inappropriate time. Finally Pekka found it appropriate to open a "G&N" forum due to this, as well as the fact that a lot of people seemed to want to shoot women with little clothes on.

I would not want the forum to be divided into a "advanced/pro shooters & pro&advanced models" vs "amateur/beginner shooters & models". As Tommy just said (before I managed to post this), how do we define a "pro"? What do we do if someone is not a pro, but still takes great photos? What do we do if the model is not a pro, but still looks stunning? What do we do if the photographer shoots a pro model, but due to his lack of skills she turns out looking like a beginner model? Or the opposite...

I've posted shots in People, Urban, Travel, Birds, Natur and even the G&N. I can't say I've received many comments all the time. I doubt that everyone finds my work THAT bad, but more likely I'd imagine they may like (or dislike it), but just choose not to post a comment for whatever reason. Perhaps lack of time, perhaps because they want to be able to give something better than "nice shot", but can't come up with anything, perhaps because the image is good, but doesn't invoke a reaction per se etc. Many reasons. I know I don't comment on every single photo I view.

Weka, if there are lots of people PMing you and backing you up on your idea, then why not encourage them to post their opinions in this thread? For something to happen, people have to speak up. We won't know what the other side thinks unless they post their opinions publically! Especially now that Tommy has made the thread available for everyone to post in.

[tommykjensen]

I'll just repeat what Claire already said.

Weka as You also said the only way to change things is to speak up. Those that have PM'ed You should come forward.

And create the poll to get numbers on the interest.

[wardie]

Hi All,

I'm one of those that PM'ed Weka when this thread was in the G&N area and I was unable to contribute. The relevant part of my 1st PM is below:

"G'day Weka,

1st of all "good on ya" for trying to arrange a separate area for models that are not everyones cup of tea. My wife took one look at the threads in the G&N forum and said she would NEVER allow herself to be put up against them no matter how good the shots were. She is a size 20+ and does not see herself as model potential even though people tell her she is pretty."

Now I would love to be able to present my wife with the skills that many others in the G&N have, but at present have not the technique or raw talent to be able to. I would love to learn these techniques by sharing my photos with the people that have these skills and having them provide me with constructive feedback but as I said in my PM this presently will not happen. I also can not engage models to learn these skills out of respect for my wifes feelings.

I feel that if an area was set up where "average adults" (for the want of a better description) could be presented without feeling that they are competing with Frank's and Lorek's models then maybe my wife would allow me to further my skills in this field.

I do post in "people" but mainly they are of my kids and while the feedback I get is valuable and can be applied to most of my photography, I would never try to invade that area with shots that may be borderline "adult" just to get the feedback I am looking for.

So if the proposed area does succeed in getting created I will be happy and will endevour to use it to better myself, (wife willing), but if the idea does not meet the wants of the majority I still will be happy as this forum is one of the best around and I will still learn every day.

Regards

Wardie
(John Ward)

[condyk]

Well I am starting to get what the OP was really on about. There have been some great clarifications from Weka, Claire, Mike, et al and some good refocusing from Tommy.

Seems to me Mike got some very good feedback on his wife in ball dress shot. What that implies is that solid feeback is possible when the poster encourages it, as Mike did, and when the right people happen to visit the thread.

So, seems that the first question is how does the shot poster best encourage people to feedback? Seems Mike did well by asking for clarification, participating in his own thread, saying thanks, asking questions, allowing PPing, etc.

Second issue is the emotional response of the 'model' when they feel they are being compared to others just by being placed in the same subject area? That is very difficult. I doubt there is a solution because the issue is with the person doing the assessment of self v's others. Personally, I don't compare the women, but I do compare the shot and competence in ideas, composure, lighting and exposure. Would splitting a subject area help the model not compare themselves? I dunno, because at any given time you could have very different looking people on the same page. The solution is not to compare 'looks' of course, but equally people who compare themselves cannot simply not do it. There needs to be a firm focus on technique. I would like to see some stronger leadership around the 'wow, she's hot' type comments. They don't help. One member in particular will often pop up with such comments. We're not too interested in feedback on that level I suggest.

Third, there is the comparison of the so called 'pro' and the so called 'non-pro'. Well some 'pro' shots suck and some 'non-pro' shots are wonderful and other way around too. And, do we really know who is who much of the time? I guess we assume. Let's just drop that stuff. More pointless comparison that doesn't move the debate forward to a solution.

Personally, I don't feel people there don't help each other out. Mike's thread shows that they do some times, so let's do more of what he did. If we look at the bird forum there is a very active group in there that seems to encourage and take time to feedback. That is part of the 'culture' of a group that, informally, is seemingly lead by certain members. That is maybe what is missing in the G&N subject area. Someone, or a small group, just need to agree that they want the G&N area to aspire to X, Y, and Z and then this is what we each need to do to encourage that.

To a degree CharlesU took a certain role in that a while back, along with a few others. There is no reason why others can't participate to a renewed focus for G&N. Claire has posted a tips thread so people can offer help that way. Posters can be specific about the feedback they want. More folks can post more diverse shots and get off the whole comparison thing. Keen members can take responsibility for feedback instead of viewing and not feeding back.

ETC

[bikerider]

Condyk I think you hit the nail on the head when you said 'emotional responses', but not just in the models/wives/girlfriends etc. I think so much of the discussion here is about the emotional responses of the posters, who are comparing their significant others to other models on the G&N forum. What's being suggested is a 'protected' section so some don't feel bad about posting. I mean really if the poster and their model are that sensitive, then maybe they shouldn't be posting. We all post on these forums at the risk of criticism, who's to say people posting in the animal forum won't be hurt by a comment about their cat! Everybody has emotional responses and we learn to deal with them, don't we?
Roger.

[condyk]

Condyk I think you hit the nail on the head when you said 'emotional responses', but not just in the models/wives/girlfriends etc. I think so much of the discussion here is about the emotional responses of the posters ...

Agreed ... good clarification Roger ;-)

[Claire]

What's being suggested is a 'protected' section so some don't feel bad about posting. I mean really if the poster and their model are that sensitive, then maybe they shouldn't be posting. We all post on these forums at the risk of criticism, who's to say people posting in the animal forum won't be hurt by a comment about their cat! Everybody has emotional responses and we learn to deal with them, don't we?
Roger.

True. When it comes to the models, I do believe that the difference between amateur models and more experienced ones is that the experienced ones have learnt to deal with rejection, criticism and comments about their looks, or the images they are featured in. We as amateurs have no such experience and will most likely feel much more vulnerable to criticism. That's why I think it's also important that when we do give critique, think about the wordings and to give as constructive critique as possible.

[stupot]

skipped through most of the posts here... interesting discussion. i have to say that im in the anti forum-seperation camp. G&N is not a busy place, splitting it wont help. as for only pro's posting there, thats an 'atmosphere' created not by them but by all of you guys who are holding back from posting. if you want to integrate and get everyone posting shots of 'normal' people then perhaps the burden is on you guys to get posting in G&N and change perceptions. splitting the forum will only increase the gap. the pro's are gonna continue to take photos, earn a living, post them here. thats not gonna slow down, i think you guys have gotta catch up and change the inbalance! ive posted in G&N a couple of times. i didnt have any reservations about it, and would have posted sooner were the post limit not 500 - in fact my 500th post was in G&N! it wasnt that well received but it was my first go and i was willing to share. i dont get the opportunity to post G&N often but i can assure you when i do it will probably get posted, whoever the model is or whatever i feel my skill level is.

just one thing... perhaps the requirement of 500 posts to post in G&N is a bit high? you do get lots of views but only a few are able to give comments. is it necessary to even have a limit at all? whats so special about G&N that only long time members can post there? or perhaps reduce it to 100 posts? i think this would help the situation...

[condyk]

just one thing... perhaps the requirement of 500 posts to post in G&N is a bit high? you do get lots of views but only a few are able to give comments. is it necessary to even have a limit at all? whats so special about G&N that only long time members can post there? or perhaps reduce it to 100 posts? i think this would help the situation...

I agree. I remember the fuss and it was only justified to a certain degree. I would rather anyone post BUT that there were strong enough personalities contributing to the section regulaaly to discourage blatantly sexist and/or insulting comments. Of course, ther eis a Moderation role in that too. Would be interesting to see if reducing the limit to, say, 100 caused any problems. I doubt it. Thing is, we may get more comments but not necessarily more diverse posts unless the culture is such to encourage it.

[cdifoto]

I think what this all boils down to is the models and photographers (husbands, wives, whatevers) have to stop comparing the models and start comparing the lighting. It's that simple.

Those afraid to post are treating it like it's a competition for who can shoot the hottest babe and feel there's no point in posting.

Lighting people. Technique. No one even HAS to make their shots look as good as Lorek and CharlesU, et al. We can aspire to that but we are not required to achieve it.

[weka2000]

Well if "we" are to post our "wives" then maybe some of the more experenced photographys should ge involved rather than just pass us by and our post.

Come on guys you started from nothing at some point. Encourage us, our wives read your comments. If this G/N froum is to grow it needs to feed with postive input.

So what if our wives look nothing like your paid models. We all have the same tools, camera, lens and lights. The first post of my wife the feed back was very small. Models and wives need to be encouaged. They know there areas of weakness.

Maybe you should do what 3 of us did last night. Pose yourself and post into the G/N and see what happens. Are you willing to bear all and allow people to comment. Untill you are willing to put your self in the shoes of our wives and expose yourself to the world then I would say walk softly with your comments. Your not the ones who have to deal with the aftermarth when your comments
are read by woman who at lest had the guts to allow themselves to be posted for the world to see and comment.

[Claire]

I think what this all boils down to is the models and photographers (husbands, wives, whatevers) have to stop comparing the models and start comparing the lighting. It's that simple.


Doesn't the first paragraph slightly contradict yours and Weka's original thought? You guys didn't feel comfortable posting in the G&N because you and your wives were comparing the models to your wives.

[weka2000]

Well the reality is that we are not going to get our own area. So we now have to work with G/N and changes the culture.

Which will mean we all have to learn to work togather. posters need to realise that people are not directly having a go at our "wives" and experenced photograhers just need to realise that we need their help but all we ask is that they go softly so it helps our wives feel more comfortable.

Our wives need to accept that they are the way thay are and models are the way they are and there is no need for them to compare.

[cdifoto]

Doesn't the first paragraph slightly contradict yours and Weka's original thought? You guys didn't feel comfortable posting in the G&N because you and your wives were comparing the models to your wives.

Not really because I don't want a separate section.

[DocFrankenstein]

Well if "we" are to post our "wives" then maybe some of the more experenced photographys should ge involved rather than just pass us by and our post.

Come on guys you started from nothing at some point. Encourage us, our wives read your comments. If this G/N froum is to grow it needs to feed with postive input.

So what if our wives look nothing like your paid models. We all have the same tools, camera, lens and lights. The first post of my wife the feed back was very small. Models and wives need to be encouaged. They know there areas of weakness.

Maybe you should do what 3 of us did last night. Pose yourself and post into the G/N and see what happens. Are you willing to bear all and allow people to comment. Untill you are willing to put your self in the shoes of our wives and expose yourself to the world then I would say walk softly with your comments. Your not the ones who have to deal with the aftermarth when your comments
are read by woman who at lest had the guts to allow themselves to be posted for the world to see and comment.
The basis of the forum is voluntary input. Nobody really owes anybody a comment or a critique, so demanding one may prove futile.

You certainly won't get Frank and CharlesU to comment on your pictures. If you want their input, they have workshops.

[Claire]

Not really because I don't want a separate section.

Ok, let me rephrase, wasn't that why you both hesitated to posting in the G&N? That's what I've read part literally and part underlying interpretation of some of Weka's posts.

[cdifoto]

Ok, let me rephrase, wasn't that why you both hesitated to posting in the G&N? That's what I've read part literally and part underlying interpretation of some of Weka's posts.

I hesitated because I lack real space to work. Basically the photo I posted was all the room I had...and I certainly wouldn't expect a girl to come here and try to model, amateur or not.

If/when I have a real studio or a room or area I can setup in, I'll post more if I get willing participants. I don't have a wife or gf so I'm not really arguing for or against Weka. :)

[weka2000]

It was my wife who didnt want her photos posted in G/N.

So whats the point in posting if people wont help us get better. So are our posts benith them? We post to learn, but if there is no comment how do we learn?

Again in my mind another reason why we need a seperate group.

[Moppie]

Again in my mind another reason why we need a seperate group.


No we just need members who have the time and will to help in the G&N area.
For the record I have seen Frank and Charles offer lots of advice to people, infact if asked a question I have never seen either deny to answer it.
However, you can't expect people to just come along and mentor you because they are members of a forum. Im sure they have lots of others things to do outside of posting photos and giving the odd bit of advice.

As Doc said, you can't demand people help you.
You can only pose your questions, ask for advice and hope someone has the knowledge and time to help.
If they don't there is no need to feel insulted, just rephrase your problem and try again.

[weka2000]

Im not demanding, what I am asking i that we are not overlooked or passed over.

[peacock]

If I may be so bold as to say I think splintering off into a separate forum might not be the answer , and it may actually be enforcing / perpetuating the myths and stigmas surrounding whats beautiful and glamorous.
Maybe the way to see change is for people to show a lead in G&N and in doing so possibly break down a few barriers, percieved & or real and pave the way for others.

[Moppie]

Im not demanding, what I am asking i that we are not overlooked or passed over.


Well your making enough noise that Im sure you will get noticed.
However, Iv found the best way to get attention from experts in a given field is to pay attention to what they do, ask them questions about how they do it, show interest in thier work, and then seek advice on your own work.
If you can show you are as pasionate about it as they are they will most certianly teach you everything they can.

All Iv seen so far in this thread is a desire to segregate your work from thiers useing some very subjective and irrational reasoning.


I think your wifes mis-givings about having her photos posted along side those of one of Franks models shows her lack of understanding of how the forum works, and prehaps some reluctance to have her photos shown to the general public at all.
When she is ready to accept that it is your work, not her looks, that will be judged then you will be ready to start posting more photos of her.
And you need to do that, you can't expect to find all the answers after posting only one example of your work.
You need to post lots and get lots, the more you post, and more feed back you get. Its an on going process.

[weka2000]

Weka's are inclined to make a lot of noise :)

What I want to see is more people willing to post their wives. I want wives to be confident in themselves without feeling self consious, or comparing other photos.

I agree about the mis givings. Remember a lot of our wives have enought trouble letting us photograph them let alone post them for the world to see.
My wife is a gutsy woman and im proud of her for allowing me to photograph her. When she says yes to posting then I know I have done a good job

[bikerider]

It was my wife who didnt want her photos posted in G/N.

So whats the point in posting if people wont help us get better. So are our posts benith them? We post to learn, but if there is no comment how do we learn?

Again in my mind another reason why we need a seperate group.

Most of us who have posted here have had the experience of little or no comments. You will have to learn to deal with your reaction to that if you are to continue to post. What makes the G&N forum more sensitive to crit', or the lack of it than other forums? It's how people feel about themselves that makes the difference and you're not going to be able to compensate for that no matter how many sections you create......I mean this as much for the photographer as the model.
Roger.

[tommykjensen]

Ok I think it is time for the official decision on this.

The idea have been discussed by moderators and the decision was unanimous.

The Glamour & Nude forum stays as it is.

[weka2000]

My concern is not for me. I can take it. I just worry that my wife will not take it in the way it was intended. Post her on the forum is a very sensitve issue for her, as for may woman I guess.

I am trying to protect my wife while at the same time to encourage her and other wifes that they are are attractive and beautiful.

It take years to help build up trust and confidence. Take very little to undo.

I hope readers can understand where I am comming from.

[weka2000]

Ok I think it is time for the official decision on this.

The idea have been discussed by moderators and the decision was unanimous.

The Glamour & Nude forum stays as it is.

Accepted without issue. Thank you for at least considering it. I will not raise it again.

What I will do is continue to promote people to post their "wives" here and where ever possible help in what ever way I can to encourage them in their endevor.

There is something very special about photographing ones wife that never happens with a model.

PS I believe there is so much talent out there, taken im peoples homes with basic to modest setups. Woman rangeing in age, shape and cultures. Dont be affaid to share. It is through sharing we all learn.

[cdifoto]

There is something very special about photographing ones wife that never happens with a model.

What if I was married to a model though?



Wait I already know the answer....I wouldn't be on here! :lol::D:p

[condyk]

... I wouldn't be on here! :lol::D:p

True for a while but then too soon you get driven to places like this to get some peace :lol: :lol:

I wonder if the Mods considered taking a stand of support for 'normal' people everywhere and getting naked in a G&N group shot?

[tommykjensen]

I wonder if the Mods considered taking a stand of support for 'normal' people everywhere and getting naked in a G&N group shot?

I doubt it. I for one wouldn't.

[cdifoto]

True for a while but then too soon you get driven to places like this to get some peace :lol: :lol:

That's true...we'd have SO many kids... :lol:


Dang ubernympho supermodel babes anyhow... :rolleyes: :p

[Claire]

That's true...we'd have SO many kids... :lol:

Dang ubernympho supermodel babes anyhow... :rolleyes: :p

Poor you... ;)

[Belmondo]

I wonder if the Mods considered taking a stand of support for 'normal' people everywhere and getting naked in a G&N group shot?

At last! A use for my 14mm lens!

[Jon]

True for a while but then too soon you get driven to places like this to get some peace :lol: :lol:

I wonder if the Mods considered taking a stand of support for 'normal' people everywhere and getting naked in a G&N group shot?
We're scattered acrosss the globe between Finland and Australia, with individuals everywhere in between. If the members of the board were to fund a week-long, all expenses paid, Moderator's Conference in, say, Waikiki (about the center of distribution), we might be induced to accomodate that request. But it's your eyes that would be scorched.

[weka2000]

We're scattered acrosss the globe between Finland and Australia, with individuals everywhere in between. If the members of the board were to fund a week-long, all expenses paid, Moderator's Conference in, say, Waikiki (about the center of distribution), we might be induced to accomodate that request. But it's your eyes that would be scorched.

Well they say a picture is woth a 1000 words. Be intersting to see what you guys and girls look like.

Use the self timmer we did :)