Image Softness

[CBirnley]

Whether shooting in program, manual, AV or TV, with AF or MF, my images continue to come out soft with my 20D. This occurs with each of my lenses, 50mm 1.4, 70-200 2.8, 24-70 2.8, and kit, throughout all focal distances.

I have used the AF select technique along with allowing the camera to pick the points...still soft.

I am shooting with a UV filter on all my lenses, using correct technique (focusing then completly depressing button), and have used various AF modes (focus, one shot, etc).

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. For the record, I already sent in the body to Canon (CA) and they said that "they updated the firmware, adjusted focus to best focusing point, checked all functions to factory specs, cleaned sensor-mirror-view finder, LCD."

Please advise. Thank you.

[liza]

How are you post processing them?

[CBirnley]

Thank you for the response...By post processing I assume you mean what software am I using. I basically d/l them into Photoshop Elements and then print from there.

[JaertX]

You might post a few examples with shot data....would help a lot to give you honest feedback.

[JohnnyBlood]

It would help if you posted an example or two with the EXIF data. As for post-processing, if all you are doing is downloading the images into Photoshop Elements and not touching them up there in any way, your images are bound to look a little soft (at least by comparison to many of the images you see online). I think Liza, and now I, are interested in the work flow you use to process the images with Photoshop Elements, if at all. In what format are you taking photographs? RAW? JPEG? TIFF?

[liza]

Are you doing (at minimum) levels and USM to the images after you download them? DSLR images need some processing to compensate for the anti-aliasing filters in the camera which cause unprocessed images to look soft. They aren't like a point and shoot or compact camera that does everything in camera.

[PhotosGuy]

Sharpening and Saving (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34489) will help.

[CBirnley]

Thank you all for your input thus far. Attached are two images which appear soft when printed on my Canon I9900 as well as on my monitor.

Please comment on the softness that is seen in each image as well as any possible fix that may be available. I struggle to believe that a $1500 camera and $1200 lens would still need post-processing with USM, etc. Please advise. Thank you.

Image #1
Program mode = Portrait
1/60
f4.0
Exp Comp = 0
ISO = 400
Lens 24-70mm
70mm focal length
Flash Exp Comp = 0

Image #2
Program mode = Portrait
1/60
f4.0
Exp Comp = 0
ISO = 400
24-70mm lens
70 mm focal length
Flash Exp Comp = 0

[CBirnley]

and these are in JPEG, High setting...

[J Rabin]

Maybe, just maybe...the offending devil is basic photography technique?
Here's some offending EXIF data: 70mm @ 1/60 @ f/4

Me thinks maybe you are trying to handhold a camera, in lower light, with paper thin f/4 depth of field, at 1/60. I'm older and shakey, but a decent technique person, and with that lens on an APS-C sensor camera I needed 1/160 @ 70mm for sharp photos. 1/125 in a pinch, with flash to freeze motion blur.

Because the sensor is smaller, unless your technique is very careful and steady, you benefit from a shutter speed 1/1.6x focal length instead of the old guidance of 1/1x focal length.

Going to ISO 800 would have doubled your shutter speed.
Going to ISO 1600 would have doubled your shutter and provided you f/5.6 for greater depth of field.

Me? I'm just a fill flash junkie. I think available light photography at "events" is overrated, silly.
Set the camera at ISO 400, Manual Mode, 1/160 or 1/200 to stop subject blur and adjust the f/stop between f/5.6 and f/8 depending on subject distance. Bounce the flash off the walls or ceiling.

Then watch how beautiful your photographs come out.
Jack

[CBirnley]

Jack,

Thank you for your feedback...I was using my 580EX as fill...and by putting it in Program Portrait mode, I thought it would give me the correct settings...obviously not the case.

Thank you for your feedback...as we have a TON of church functions and are frequently in the same room I will use your suggestions.

Also, what are your thoughts about needing to use USM to make the images sharp...seems that if my technique is correct, why should I need to Shop the images...thoughts?

[J Rabin]

Let me take a whack at this. I am a Manual Shooter and a RAW shooter, but I thought that if you use the Idiot Modes (P, green circle, portrait, etc.) that the camera was performing in camera sharpening and turning out finished images?

So, if you are using flash, that just reduces the problem to f/stop and shutter speed. Of course, Canon fill-flash is its own dark VooDoo art.

Use the "Parameters" to boost the contrast (which affects perception of sharpness) and sharpness, to taste.

Anway, for indoor work, I would use recommend as stated above, with camera in M. For individual or small groups of people at events, unless you are purposefully going for selective focus narrow depth of field, f/8+ and be there with 1/160 +/- and ISO 400 is a good starting point.

Go to the POTN Flash Forum and check the stickies.
To give you an idea what that camera and lens are capable of
here is 1/30 on a tripod:
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/Growers%20Marketing/Gloucester%20Co/slides/Gloucester%20Farms%20113.htm
Fill flash applied in daylight by holding it off camera:
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/Farming%20Practices/Fruit%20IPM%20Tietjen%20Scout/slides/IPM_Fruit_Tietjen_2.htm
a 20D and 24-70 handheld in the wind at about 1/250:
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/Plants%20or%20Fungi/slides/PokeWeed%20Mono.htm
24-70 indoors. Manual with fill flash.
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/NJ%20Ag%20Expt%20Station/Plant%20Diagnostic%20Lab/slides/DiagnosticLab_Sabrina_5.htm

Sorry for all the coarse jpg compression. The images look better than posts.
Jack

[liza]

You have to Photoshop DSLR images due to the softness caused by the anti-aliasing filter. This is a common source of disbelief among new DSLR users. It isn't like a film camera or a digital point and shoot. While it's good to expose images properly, there's more work after the shot than with other types of cameras. With greater control comes greater responsibility, I suppose.

[liza]

Let me take a whack at this. I am a Manual Shooter and a RAW shooter, but I thought that if you use the Idiot Modes (P, green circle, portrait, etc.) that the camera was performing in camera sharpening and turning out finished images?

No, that isn't correct.

[CBirnley]

Jack and Liza...

Thank you for your feedback...I will most definitely put it to work.

I will however say that I am frustrated by the fact that "post processing" work must occur, in light of (no pun intended) a proper exposure (assuming that one day I may actually be able to do such). I am amazed that I would need to do anything to an image from a device which cost so much (I appreciate that $1500 is not much in light of the Mark IIs and Nikon D200s). I mean, considering that our p&s Minolta is more clear...it is REALLY embarassing...ugh!

Thanks again for your assistance and I will continue to "refine" my skills...considering I have a day job, I will continued to enjoy my hobby (albeit, a little spendy).

Take care.

[J Rabin]

Oh, and you need to fix the whole White Balance color of light issue in your photos, which throughs off exposure. Either use a fast enough shutter to eliminate ambient light, or set your WB to Flash, or best, do a custom white balance jpg shot under flash in that room, and keep it stored on ALL your compact flash cards, so whenever you are in there, you can set a Custom WB and neutralize that horrid color cast from the lighting.
Jack

[CBirnley]

Awesome...thank you for the feedback...I am not a big fan of the jaundiced look either...this is one amazing "hobby"...the more I learn, the more I forget...ugh!

[J Rabin]

Liza.
I learn something new every day. I've been RAW for 3 years now, used to automated batch post processing and sharpening. I thought that the Canon Idiot Modes did set tone curces and sharpen for the user.
I guess that's why Canon did the Picture Styles thing... to make JPGs pop better from camera to print.
For a 20D user, they'd have to shoot RAW, and use Picture Styles in Canon DPP software rather than in camera.
I was playing with Canon Picture Styles a few weeks ago, and quite impressed actually. Used Canon Picture Styles from DPP on this sequence of 9 fill flash shots, and they came out fine:
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/NJ%20Ag%20Expt%20Station/Asparagus%20Breeding%20Grnhse/slides/Asparagus_Breeding_02.htm
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~rabin/NJ%20Ag%20Expt%20Station/Asparagus%20Breeding%20Grnhse/slides/Asparagus_Breeding_05.htm

[liza]

I do the batch processing thing myself. And I'd bet that Canon developed picture styles partly in consideration for all the new DSLR shooters with little to no experience who are purchasing 30D's, 5D's, and even 1 series bodies. I suppose it fulfills a need for immediacy which is becoming dominant in our culture. It will be fascinating to see the development of this sort of technology over the next two years as has been rumored already.

[Bob_A]

Maybe, just maybe...the offending devil is basic photography technique?
Here's some offending EXIF data: 70mm @ 1/60 @ f/4



Hi Jack, I was thinking the same thing at first, but looking at the room I wonder if there was enough light for shutterspeed to make much of a difference for these flash images. If there was lots of ambient light and flash was just providing a bit of fill then I agree that the shutterspeed is too low. On the other hand, I usually use 1/200s for indoor candids using flash "just in case" :)

The images are pretty small to really evaluate, but it would be nice to see a 100% crop of where the focus point is after some USM was applied in PS (at say, 300, 0.3, 0).