Beginner: 300D vs. 10D

[kabell]

Hi all!

I need some advice. I'm fairly new to the world of photography. I have been using a Nikon Coolpix 4300 for about 6 months (pics at www.kablog.dk), but now I want to step up and buy myself a digital SLR.

I'm choosing between theese sets of camera and lenses, and I don't know what would be best to start with.

Canon EOS 300D + Canon EF-L 4.0/17-40mm CPS

or

Canon EOS 300D with 18-55 lens + Canon EF 70-200mm f/4,0 L USM

or

Canon 10D + 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM


I will buy a 1 GB MicroDrive with all of the sets.

I have read a lot of books about photography, so I understand all the basic concepts like f-stops, exposure and so on and I expect to be climbing the learning curve very quicly



What should I choose?

I would really like the 10D, as it should be more robust and have a lot more functions and a higher fps and a bigger buffer. But then I read somewhere, that it's better to buy good lenses than a camera with great features.

I will be using the camera for all kinds of photography: portraits, landscape, close-up etc. so I will have to buy me a good set of lenses no matter what.


So maybe my questions boils down to this: Should I as a beginner buy the 10D or the 300D?

Thanks in advance!

- Jeppe

[Andy_T]

Hi Jeppe,

there are some threads here covering that very question.

I would suggest doing a board search and posting your question in one of these threads after reading the findings of others in your situation :).

The basic result of these threads was: You will be able to get great results with both alternatives (for you, there are 3) - so it really comes down to you visiting the photo dealer of your trust, giving the 2 cameras a try and deciding for yourself with which one you feel more comfortable.

Additional interesting information might be the thread mentioning the Dell offer selling the Digital Rebel Kit (body + 18-55) for $ 800 (after 20% small business discount) plus applicable tax.

It's a no brainer that this offer is attractive, and it might not last very long.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: I use the IBM 1 GB microdrive on my G2 myself, as it had by far the best price/performance ratio in 2002.

However, as prices for solid state CF cards have gone down, I wouldn't buy one again today - just because of the higher risk that a delicate hard-drive type CF card brings. There are also threads on that.

[HoodedOne]

Hi Jeppe

If you want a robust camera, go for the 10D. The 300D is a nice camera but it still has the plastic feeling of the original eos 300.

What i find really important when buying a new camera is, that I can reach the most important buttons without to much trouble. My first SLR was a Eos 300, and it was just too small for my hands. So this is something you might want to look at for yourself.

The choice of lenses is very personal, and it depends on the quality and how much money you are willing to spend on it. You say you want to photograph all kinds of subjects and therefor I would choose the 24-85, or other options are the 28-105 USM and 28-135 IS USM. The 17- 40 is a very nice lens, but I wouldn´t buy this as your first lens because it´s range is very limited.

Don´t worry about not having the wide angle, on your fitrst lens. Canon supplies a great program with the camera, called PhotoStitch. And it´s very easy to create panoramic pictures with this program.

Why do you want to buy a 1 Gb Microdrive ? If you searched the internet, you must have read that microdrives can crash. So I think it´s smarter to buy a 512 Mb CF and use the money you save, to buy a portable harddisk, or buy 2 512 Mb CF cards in which case you´re spreading the risks if anything goes wrong.
If you´re affraid of running out of storage to quick, a 512 CF can hold around 70 RAW files (depending on settings)


cheers

[reggie0326]

I was in this same perdicament, per my photgrapher friend who I trust. You keep your quality lens and always upgrade the camera. So I got the Dig Rebel yesterday and am quite pleased with it.
Reggie

[BobbyC]

reggie0326 wrote:
You keep your quality lens and always upgrade the camera.

I would take a little caution in this statement. This is very true with film cameras but not digitals. The same lense on a rebel G film camera will capture the same picture, with the same lighting as an EOS 1 top of the line film camera, this is not true with digital, however in the case of the digital rebel and the 10D it probably is more true since they have the same sensor.

Here is what I consider to be the major differences between them (I posted this in another thread)

2.5 fps for 4 shots on Rebel vs. 3fps for 9 shots on 10D
No PC Terminal on Rebel
No ISO 3200 on Rebel
Less viewfinder info on Rebel
No internal flash exposure comp. on Rebel
No incremental white balance setting on Rebel
Darker viewfinder on Rebel
No mirror lock-up on Rebel

No custom functions on Rebel, notably:
SET button customizable
The ability to force tha camera not to fire without a CF card
AF point registration
2nd curtain sync
AE lock button customizable

The rebel has the EFs lenses (only 1 so far and only fits the Rebel D) which may or may not be a factor to some. It really depends on how long it takes full frame sensors to get to the masses. Since I still use film every once in a while (less and less every day), I want to be able to use the lenses on other cameras, so I wouldn't invest in the EFs line. That's just me though.

None of these will keep a person from taking equally good photos with either camera but it could affect the types of pictures taken and how you will be able to take them.

Cheers,
Bobby

[charr5]

Kabell,
I am somewhat new to the Digital world but have shot with the Canon Elan for a while before getting my 10D. I went to the camera store today and played with the Digital Rebel. It does have a more plastic feel, but not anything to make that big of a deal about. The one thing that I didn't like is where all of the dials and buttons are located. Coming from using the Elan, the dials for the 10D are almost identical and the learning curve and handling of the camera came very easy.
My opinion is to buy something you won't grow out of for a while. I think the 10D will keep you very satisfied for a very long time. If you can afford it, I would get the 10D just for that reason. I'm just a hobbie photographer and I would think that the Rebel might limit you in a short time.
Just my 2 pennies.
Christopher

[LEC_D30]

In practical life, when the digital rebel would be a limiting factor compared to the 10D?

Can anyone give examples of real life situations where a Digital Rebel could not get a picture but the 10D ?


Thanks for your feedback.

lec_d30

[BruceMcL]

Well, I'm a beginner in digital photography (got my Rebel last week) but I've been involved in both still and motion picture film photography for many years.

For what it may be worth, I chose the Rebel. And I did so for two main reasons: (1) I wanted to see what digital photography could do compared to film based work and (2) since the Rebel and 10D share the same imaging chip I thought it would be better to first develop a stable of good lenses and then, eventually upgrade the camera body.

Since I also need to acquire a printer, I just thought that saving some money on the body at this stage made sense for me. But I'm sure others will offer different advice.

I have already noticed that while the lens which came with the Rebel is not bad, its barrel is made of plastic and is not all that smooth to operate. Since I am used to high quality Nikkor lenses I know I'm going to gravitate to the L series of Canon lenses as soon as I can afford them. So that's why saving a few dollars now on the body with very few penalities in performance made the most sense to me.

Bruce

[danphoto1]

I would go with the 10D because it truely is a rugged camera. Mine was dropped and still works perfectly. I would stay away from microdrives however. they are fragile and easy to break. I think that you would be much better off to stay with type1 compact flash. I think that if you can afford it It is just a better built quality peice of equiptment.

[boBquincy]

Lec_D30,

In this case I used 2nd curtain flash sync (on my D30) to photograph the car. Without this function the 'trails' would come from in front of the car, making it look as if the car were going backwards.

I also use this function for nighttime parades.

So I bought a 10D... ;)


boB

[imghttp://www.mindspring.com/~bobquincy2/vehicles/IMG_3922_800.jpg[/img]

[kabell]

Hi all!

Thanks for all the response.

I have decided to go with the 10D and the 28-135mm IS USM.

I have also decided to drop the Microdrive. The reason I thought about buying one is I could get one for EUR 160, which seems to be rather cheap for a 1 GB of space. I will have to stick up with my 128 mb CF type 1 untill next month (= when more money arrives).

I think I will go with the advice and buy a 512 mb CF1 card and this portable cd-writer: http://www.jobodigital.com/products/disc_steno_cp100.htm

I have heard about Microdrives being fragile, but haven't been able to find any ressources about it on the net. Maybe someone can direct me to some?


- Jeppe

[kabell]

Andythaler wrote:
Additional interesting information might be the thread mentioning the Dell offer selling the Digital Rebel Kit (body + 18-55) for $ 800 (after 20% small business discount) plus applicable tax.

It's a no brainer that this offer is attractive, and it might not last very long.


Hi Andy!

Thanks for the tip, but I live in Denmark which is inside the European Union. If I buy anything in the US, I will have to pay the price + shipping + 25% in VAT to the Danish State + additional taxes... :-( I think all Europeans a very irritated on this, as you Americans seems to have very lower prices than us, but if we try to buy items from the US it ends up getting even more expensive than buying inside the EU.


Jeppe

[debeers]

I would recommend CF cards over microdrive. microdrive is actually a hard drive disk. It uses more battery to operate, and yes, fragile: if you drop it then it's done. Today cf cards have higher capacity and they're a little bit cheaper.

[HoodedOne]

Hi Jeppe

I think you made the right choices, and i´m sure you won´t be dissapointed.

The Apacer Disc Steno CP100 looks like a very useful tool for mass storage, and I probably will buy one myself soon.


cheers

[BobbyC]

lec_d30 wrote:
Can anyone give examples of real life situations where a Digital Rebel could not get a picture but the 10D ?


1. If you need to get more than 4 rapid shots in a row.

2. If you wanted to plug in studio lights to the camera. (You can get a hotshoe PC terminal adaptor)

3. If you need ISO 3200 to get a shot.

4. Any time you wish to lower the flash output for fill. (ie no flash exp. comensation)

5. You want to set an exact color temperature for white balance.

6. You wish to use mirror lockup for a long exposure so the camera wont shake when the mirror moves.

7. When you want to use 2nd curtain sync with a flash for long exposures so light trails behind things in stead in front of them.

I was looking at some specs on it and I didn't see where it had a socket for a remote shutter release, that would be a big factor for me in the studio. It may have one though, I just didn't see it.

As I said before not all of these will necessarily keep you form getting a particular shot with the rebel, but it could affect how you get that shot a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying the rebel, I think it's a great little camera, I am only trying to point out the things that I have found to be significant in regards to which one someone should buy.

If you think you will need any of things I listed earlier, then you might want the 10D.

[LEC_D30]

Thanks for your replies.

Well, let me see:

1. If you need to get more than 4 rapid shots in a row.

I think I can leave with this although I am not sure yet.


2. If you wanted to plug in studio lights to the camera. (You can get a hotshoe PC terminal adaptor).

This is Ok for me.


3. If you need ISO 3200 to get a shot.

I don't really see a personal need for this.


4. Any time you wish to lower the flash output for fill. (ie no flash exp. comensation).

This could be a problem unless I use a 420EX ETTL flash, although of course, it means extra investment.


5. You want to set an exact color temperature for white balance.

I don't really need this.


6. You wish to use mirror lockup for a long exposure so the camera wont shake when the mirror moves.

This could be a problem.


7. When you want to use 2nd curtain sync with a flash for long exposures so light trails behind things in stead in front of them.

Is my understanding that some external flashes allow to be set for triggering at the end of the light capture rather than at the start. I have not confirmed this to be true.



I was looking at some specs on it and I didn't see where it had a socket for a remote shutter release, that would be a big factor for me in the studio. It may have one though, I just didn't see it.

It looks like this camera accepts a remote control like the G3 to do wireless shooting.



You are right BobbyC, what camera is better depends a lot on the end user needs. Thanks again for your feedback!

Regards,

lec_d30

[Jesper]

Remote control: This is one of those features that Canon dealt with in a very illogical way.

- The Digital Rebel / 300D does have a receiver for the infrared remote control RC-1.
- The Elan (EOS 30 / 33) does have a receiver for the RC-1.
- The 10D, which is essentially a digital Elan, does *not* have the IR receiver.

Why did they leave it off the 10D ??

[Webster]

I have decided to go with the 10D and the 28-135mm IS USM.

I have also decided to drop the Microdrive. The reason I thought about buying one is I could get one for EUR 160, which seems to be rather cheap for a 1 GB of space. I will have to stick up with my 128 mb CF type 1 untill next month (= when more money arrives).

I think I will go with the advice and buy a 512 mb CF1 card and this portable cd-writer: http://www.jobodigital.com/products/disc_steno_cp100.htm


I've been using the Disk Steno for several months in some pretty abusive conditions, and the only negative thing I can say is that it will fail while trying to burn a CD when sitting on the seat of a moving car (duh!).

I predict that the 128MB CF card will drive you batty from day one. I have two 512MB cards and one 256MB and I still use the Disk Steno regularly. I think you'll move up the purchase day of the 512MB card.

[BobbyC]

lec_d30 wrote:
4. Any time you wish to lower the flash output for fill. (ie no flash exp. comensation).

This could be a problem unless I use a 420EX ETTL flash, although of course, it means extra investment.


Just a little note:

You would have to get a 550ex, the 420 doesn't have FEC.

[mkaplan]

kabell wrote: Snipits...
Hi all!

I need some advice.
I'm choosing between theese sets of camera and lenses, and I don't know what would be best to start with.

Canon EOS 300D + Canon EF-L 4.0/17-40mm CPS or

Canon EOS 300D with 18-55 lens + Canon EF 70-200mm f/4,0 L USM or

Canon 10D + 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 USM

I will buy a 1 GB MicroDrive with all of the sets.

So maybe my questions boils down to this: Should I as a beginner buy the 10D or the 300D?

Well IMO you made the right choice. There is already a 'petition' on this forum (some sadly unrealistic expectations where IMO they should invest some money in a lotto ticket because they have a better chance of winning a lotto then getting Canon to change their marketing strategy on an already marketed product) asking Canon to add some of those missing features.

The point is if you are not sure if you need it then you may. If you know you will never need it, you may find you need it at some future point. I have the 10D and wish certain features that are available on the higher models were included on the 10D. I can not afford a 1Ds and therefore will have to live without those extra features for now but the pricing difference between the 10D and 300 Rebel are much closer and therefore an easier decision. If the 300 was available when I had bought my 10D, I still would have chosen the 10D.

I purchased my 10D with a new cheap lens and a used cheap lens (N:28-80 f3.5-5.6, U:75-300 F4-5.6 III USM) and used them until I could afford better lenses. They allowed me to not have to spend the big bucks immediately and get to know and learn the camera better.

As far as the Microdrive. I have had one since my last camera (more than 1 year ago) and have had absolutely no problems. A lot of people talk about the possible problems but if you search there are very few actual problems. It was said if your camera can live thru it so will the MD. Yes they can fail but with a little common sense on handling most last a long long time and there are some people with CF problems as well.

Good luck with whatever you get and most importantly enjoy your purchase.

[bwb s30]

I tried the DRebel with my 24-85 lens ... and was disappointed! .. all my wide angle was gone ... 24 mm becomes 38 mm which is just not wide enuf for me.... so the DRebel went back ... now its a G3 for me!

[MarkH]

bwb s30 wrote:
I tried the DRebel with my 24-85 lens ... and was disappointed! .. all my wide angle was gone ... 24 mm becomes 38 mm which is just not wide enuf for me.... so the DRebel went back ... now its a G3 for me!

WTF?

The G3 only goes as wide as 35mm, you could have got the kit lens with the Rebel for only another $100, that would have given you the equiv of 28-88.

With a D-SLR you could also upgrade to a good quality wide zoom like the 17-40L or a good wide prime like the 20 f2.8.

[MarkH]

lec_d30 wrote:
1. If you need to get more than 4 rapid shots in a row.

I think I can live with this although I am not sure yet.
lec_d30

This is one I wouldn't dismiss too easily.

I have filled up my 10D 9 shot buffer and had to wait for it to process the pics. Fortunately the 10D can make room for more shots fairly quickly. I haven't had this happen often, but when it does I am glad that I have the 9 shot buffer.

With the 300D there is a risk that you may miss a really good shot because the buffer fills so quickly.

In a way I am glad that the 300D wasn't out when I got my 10D, I might have been tempted to save money and I might have ended up with a less capable camera then I really want.